Hemp Fibers Make Better Supercapacitors Than Graphene 178
biodata (1981610) writes "BBC News is reporting findings published in the journal ACS Nano by Dr David Mitlin from Clarkson University. Dr. Mitlin's team took waste hemp stems and recycled the material into supercapacitors with performance as good, or better, than those built from graphene, at a fraction of the raw materials cost. "We're making graphene-like materials for a thousandth of the price - and we're doing it with waste. The hemp we use is perfectly legal to grow. It has no THC in it at all - so there's no overlap with any recreational activities," Mitlin says.
suitable for home use? (Score:5, Informative)
The article abstract says:
The nanosheets are ideally suited for low (down to 0 C) through high (100 C) temperature ionic-liquid-based supercapacitor applications: At 0 C and a current density of 10 A g–1, the electrode maintains a remarkable capacitance of 106 F g–1. At 20, 60, and 100 C and an extreme current density of 100 A g–1, there is excellent capacitance retention (72–92%) with the specific capacitances being 113, 144, and 142 F g–1, respectively. These characteristics favorably place the materials on a Ragone chart providing among the best power–energy characteristics (on an active mass normalized basis) ever reported for an electrochemical capacitor: At a very high power density of 20 kW kg–1 and 20, 60, and 100 C, the energy densities are 19, 34, and 40 Wh kg–1, respectively. "
Which possibly suggests that the materials are suitable for indoor use (but not in cars unless you happen to operate in a non-freezing climate) which could have some very practical applications. Solar panels are becoming attractive and I'd like a storage bank but would like to avoid batteries because of the slow charge, expense, and maintenance. A super capacitor, of course, is attractive. Off the top of my head, I don't know what the power density of this type of capacitor is relative to lead acid deep cycle batteries. Still, I smile though
Re:suitable for home use? (Score:5, Informative)
The power density is really nowhere close to a battery. Supercaps make sense for things where you actually need really massive charge and/or discharge spikes, over very short times. Think railguns, or a camera flash that can fire multiple times without needing to recharge between shots (if it charged enough to begin with), or possibly a smoothing system for charging batteries from a very spiky power source (hypothetically, this could scale to things like harvesting lightning, though at present that's not at all practical). They aren't practical for long-term storage, either due to energy density or due to their tendency to lose power over time pretty quickly.
A sufficiently large battery bank will have no problem with the charge speed of a photovoltaic array (which is actually rather slow). A small bank might reach saturation voltage - where the batteries are still charging but can't charge any *faster* or they'll take damage from overvolting - fairly quickly if fed by a large array, but that's not the real problem with a small bank; the real problem is not having enough storage capacity.
Expense is considerable, especially if you go with the low-maintenance options like gel-cells. However, supercaps are, at this time, not something you can buy a huge bank of at any price (certainly not the hemp-based ones). If you could get a meaningful capacity of the graphene ones it would probably cost many times as much. Maybe the hemp ones will change that, but don't hold your breath.
Maintenance is much less than it sounds. Wet-cells (typical lead-acid batteries) need topping up with water periodically, and occasionally may need equalization charges; the first can be done by a reminder to go do so every month, and the latter doesn't even need to be that often. Pretty much every other aspect of maintenance should be handled by a good enclosure for the batteries and a good charge controller. The controller costs a bit but you want one of the good ones anyhow; they perform DC-DC voltage conversion to take the output of the solar cells (which can easily be at least 25% higher voltage than the batteries will charge at) and down-convert it, extracting some extra current in the process (some energy is lost in this process, but it's typically a 10%-20% net positive for the 12V gel-cells my family uses). Speaking of gel-cells, those will save you on maintenance (at a cost of more money up front and a more severe voltage sensitivity that limits charge rate a bit harder). Such batteries are basically install-and-forget, but you'd need to be tremendously lazy for them to be worthwhile for a home installation; they are typically for marine usage (as my parents do) where never needing to open the cells (to add water) is a significant plus.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
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The Mazda 6 uses capacitors for it's regenerative braking system...so they are relevant for hybrid car systems...for short term energy storage.
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The power density is really nowhere close to a battery. Supercaps make sense for things where you actually need really massive charge and/or discharge spikes, over very short times.
That is the definition of power density. You're thinking energy density. The fact that you would get the two confused casts aspersions on your knowledge in the field.
Interesting conclusion. Care to pick apart the rest of his post point by point, or do you naturally simply assume that if someone slips up with one word they are entirely ignorant in their field? I have on occasion confused kW and kWh, that hasn't stopped me from designing HV substations successfully, just like energy density vs power density has nothing to do with the rest of his post about the benefits of wet-cell vs agm.
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I agree lead acid is not idea but guess what, if you go out right now and say you want a battery storage system for solar to run your house you WILL get a lead acid battery installation and there are many people who have already done so despite your assertion that it's "wrong". You said it yourself, a home system does not have space or weight limitations, so I'm interested why you think it is so wrong? I mean if we can run industrial control systems for 2 days of lead acid batteries why not a house? If othe
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Apologies, you're correct. You'll note that I used "energy density" later on.
Also, it may cast doubt on my knowledge (which is actually fair; that's a easy mistake but also a beginner or casual one) but I don't think it casts aspersions; you should look up what that word means. Anyhow, I'm a computer security engineer, not an EE or an electrician. I've only ever wired one large PV-charged, DC-stored home electrical system, and did it with under my father who *is* an EE. I'm guessing that's still one more th
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Are the gel-cells you refer to also called "sealed lead acid" batteries? If so, then you are correct, they are maintenance free (and good for about 5 years if kept up properly and not overly discharged often).
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Gel batteries are a form of sealed lead-acid, yes, although not the only such form. Another common one is AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat). I forget exactly why we went with gel instead of AGM cells, but there was some reason (and it wasn't cost; AGM is cheaper). In any case, there's some interesting reading about sealed lead-acid batteries on the mighty Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V... [wikipedia.org]
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They aren't practical for long-term storage, either due to energy density or due to their tendency to lose power over time pretty quickly.
I'd be curious to know what you consider long term, as it might not be as long as you think for a home storage situation.
I have a 1.5kwh array on my home, which generates a little excess during the day and of course, is useless at night :)
I've considered bumping it up to 3 or 5kwh as I get no effective use out of the excess generation (8c/KwH). However if I could buffer it for 24-48 hours then I could effectively power my house overnight. I live in Brisbane, Australia, so it would be effectively off grid fo
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No need, my hot water is solar.
Just looking at ways to store my solar for use over night, a bit more extensively than the fridge. Plus I'd be very wary of turning a freezer or fridge off overnight here, defrosts very quickly.
Re:suitable for home use? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd love these for a solar array where energy stored for unit volume is important, but not critical (like it is in a car or RV) for a number of reasons:
1: Hemp is a lot less nasty for the environment than graphene.
2: This could be used as a buffer for the chemical batteries, since you don't have to worry about limiting amps coming in. Come "shoulder hours", the supercaps can be charging the batteries at exactly the amperage rate they need even after the sun is down, greatly improving the system's efficiency.
3: The lifespan of a capacitor is a lot longer than a battery because electricity is stored physically, not chemically. So, if space is less of an issue, large supercaps can be used without worrying about replacement every 5-10 years (or 2-3 years with Li-ion) batteries.
So, for an off-grid circuit (one that never goes near mains power and pretty much acts as a UPS), having this technology would go far.
Re:suitable for home use? (Score:4, Interesting)
Asbestos is just silicate rock. Structure makes a difference. [gizmag.com].
Graphene is just a sheet of carbon, but it's structure gives it novel properties - it wouldn't be a super-material if it didn't, just because it's all cool and awesome doesn't mean it's also inert and harmless.
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And benzene is literally just a ring of Carbon atoms, but you wouldn't want to drink a cup of it!
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There's another approach to this, but it's gone a bit quiet ; they use a novel dielecric and claim that they can get incredibly high voltages out of it which makes for high energy storage.
EEStor [wikipedia.org]
Since the dielectric is one part and the electrode another, I wonder what kind of advantages you'd get from combining the two? (Not sure if hemp electrodes would be compatible with their manufacturing process which uses metal foils as electrodes at the moment, as per traditional capaciptors).
Gives new meaning... (Score:5, Funny)
This will give new meaning to the term 'magic smoke'.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... [wikipedia.org] for those that don't know)
Gives new meaning... (Score:3, Funny)
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Actually, Washington's diaries talk about his hemp crop, and include this passage:
"Began to separate the Male from the Female hemp ⦠rather too late."
The only reason to separate the male and female plants is to prevent pollination, and thereby increase (psychoactive) resin production. This is still done to this day among pot growers. It seems pretty clear that Washington had at least some interest in the medicinal/psychoactive qualities of his crop.
Re: Gives new meaning... (Score:2, Informative)
That's not the only reason, and you pinched that idea from Robert Anton Wilson. The Straight Dope has something to say about it:
But let's not give up too quickly. In his diary for August 7, 1765, Washington writes, "Began to separate the Male from the Female hemp ⦠rather too late." Female marijuana plants are the ones that contain enough THC to be worth smoking. Some take this to mean Washington was cultivating the plant not just for fiber. Of course, two days later Washington says he put the he
Re:Gives new meaning... (Score:5, Insightful)
The pro pot crowd points to Washington and hemp so they can point out how stupid our marijuana laws are, because these laws, in banning marijuana, also ban hemp, even though hemp does suck for getting high. It's a versatile and useful plant (but not for smoking), good for making rope, paper, clothing, etc., but we can't have it because of these stupid pot laws.
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I believe the conspiracy theory goes that when marijuana was first banned, a farming industry (cotton? can't remember) lobbied/convinced Congress that hemp was also a massive part of this "drug craze" in order to shut down hemp farmers who were able to produce better quality textile material at a lower cost, thus making it harder for these farmers to sell their own crop.
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That's a recent development. Industrial hemp has been illegal nationwide for decades.
Legal... sort of (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, if you're properly affiliated with a university or state department of agriculture, are doing it for research purposes, and have agreed to all of the terms and conditions that the feds and your local state require. If you or I try to do it commercially, it's a federal felony.
Re:Legal... sort of (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yea but it looks like pot and if you allow any Joe, Dick and Jane to grow it the feds would have to genetically test every plant in the crop and that's just unworkable so it should be banned to save the government effort in proving that you are growing illegal plants.
[/sarcasm]
Re:Legal... sort of (Score:5, Informative)
It could probably even be selectively bred to eliminate that aspect
That's been available for a very long time, it's what they used in this experiment and is grown commercially to make hemp clothing. Getting permission to grow those species is unreasonably difficult in many countries for no other reason than it looks like the smokeable stuff. Historically hemp is as important as cotton, George Washington once decreed every land holder set aside a portion of land for growing hemp to supply the colonial navy with rope. It's said that the invention of nylon spurred the original US government propaganda and the prohibition drive, hemp was a direct competitor in many markets and the nylon makers had powerful friends in congress. The propaganda avoided the word "hemp" and used the Mexican name "Marijuana" in a cynical attempt to appeal to the racist dogma of the day that branded Mexicans as lazy and untrustworthy.
Cotton lobby (Score:4, Insightful)
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It could probably even be selectively bred to eliminate that aspect, but no, concern about a few potheads sends legislators into a tailspin. This is why we can't have nice things.
Well congrats, you've just completely mischaracterized the situation. Concern about diminishing of a profit center (Big Pharma) sends legislators into a tailspin. This is why we can't have nice things. Also, they can't admit they've been lying to us through their corrupt fucking faces all this time. The legislators know that weed is harmless, that's what the science has always said.
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No. There is no replacement yet for hemp cloth that is as good or better in hot weather. Flax comes close but isn't as durable. The ridiculous state of the law makes flax cheaper than hemp which would otherwise outperform it in all aspects including price. Synthetic fibers are trash for clothing if you have to do anything beyond sitting in an air-condition room.
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Wrong and stupid. Hemp can be used for paper, which is more environmentally-friendly than normal paper because hemp (a "weed") grows far faster than trees.
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Have you forgotten how long it takes a tree to grow to maturity? Hemp plants are extremely fast-growing.
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Still, growing a 10-inch-diameter tree takes a fair amount of time. A hemp plant grows quickly, hence the moniker "weed".
Of course, there's a lot of fiber in a 10-inch tree compared to a hemp plant, and I don't have any numbers handy on the per-acre per-year yield (of usable paper) using each plant.
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Once you've accounted for externalities, "more profitable," "more efficient," and "more environmentally-friendly" become equivalent.
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...you say in a thread about how hemp is better than the lab-created "alternative!"
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There's a reason why marijuana is called "weed," you know: it's because it grows like one (without fertilizer)!
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Re:Legal... sort of (Score:4, Informative)
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Just Frenchmen and women older then 25.
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Of course you have to comply with state and federal regulations. They probably include random sampling by feds to test THC levels in your crop.
If you genetically modify corn to have THC the corn farmers will face the same thing. That's not wrong.
What is wrong is that THC is illegal in the US. But that is a different discussion.
Info: I live in the Netherlands. I know a society can work properly while weed is available to everyone (although it isn't perfect yet).
No overlap with recreational activities? (Score:5, Insightful)
What about basket weavers, you insensitive clod!
No THC? (Score:3)
Sorry, but every cannabis sativa plant, whether of the recreational, medicinal, or hemp varieties produces some THC. Granted, hemp is a miniscule fraction of a percentage THC, but it does have THC.
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A friend of mine, his sister and his sister's stoner boyfriend went to Latvia after the Russians moved out and they could reconnect with family etc. The stoner was astonished with hemp growing all over the place and he collected and dried a lot of it. It turns out that with the variety there and the short growing season he was effectively just smoking rope because whatever process forms THC just didn't get time to happen.
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We used to report a field of two of hemp to the cops every year. Kept them out of trouble.
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... They're talking about hemp, not Cannabis Sativa. Theres a difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H... [wikipedia.org]
There are many strains of Cannabis, some have THC, some don't.
That tears it, Bailing Twine? (Score:5, Funny)
Dang it folks, I left the farm to be an electrical engineer and it keeps following me! I ran away from the farm for a reason, and bailing twine was wrapped all around it.
Now we are going to be making capacitors from bailing twine? NOOOOOO!! I won't do this again!
I have to retire before they start sending me out to pickup packages of dried grass and haul them to the barn again.
Marijuana... (Score:5, Interesting)
Marijuana. Is there anything it CAN'T do?
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Marijuana. Is there anything it CAN'T do?
Make donuts?
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Clearly, you are unfamiliar with Marijuana. :)
Bong (Score:2)
But, can it be converted into a bong?
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No, but it can be used to jump start your vaporizer
/Oblg. Hemp for Victory ! (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
The hypocrisy of the government is retarded.
--
"It is the government proselytizing it is propaganda. When it is people promoting it, it is outlawed."
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I don't have a reference handy, (would have to ask a certain member of my family who would know all about this) but I seem to remember that the banning of hemp had nothing to do with THC. That was only an excuse. The real reason was that hemp was competing too well with some other part of the textile industry.
That's going to bug me. I'll have to do research tonight and get more details.
Re:/Oblg. Hemp for Victory ! (Score:5, Interesting)
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So no ... (Score:2)
... capacity for any recreational activities.
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Actually when I was in high school electronics class we had great fun charging up big capacitors then tossing them to our classmates yelling "Here, catch!". A few of us were smart enough not to catch.
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Actually when I was in high school electronics class we had great fun charging up big capacitors then tossing them to our classmates yelling "Here, catch!". A few of us were smart enough not to catch.
In my high school electronics class the instructor announced on the first day of class that anyone charging up a capacitor and tossing it to someone else as a joke would automatically fail the class. (Apparently this was not his first rodeo.)
Up to that point, we'd never even realized this was possible. That Halloween was fun.
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Yea, it only took our instructor a couple of days to tell us to stop too but by that time everyone was wise to it anyway.
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My high school instructor told us that when he was in high school electronics, the kids would toss a charged capacator at you if they saw you trying to sneak in after the bell rang. Either you try your best to catch it, or you let it drop and the professor turns around from the chalk board and notices you walking in.
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My high school instructor told us that when he was in high school electronics, the kids would toss a charged capacator at you if they saw you trying to sneak in after the bell rang. Either you try your best to catch it, or you let it drop and the professor turns around from the chalk board and notices you walking in.
But he didn't hear the snap of the discharge if the late student caught it?
Supercapacitors from used cigarette filters (Score:2)
How about this recently published gem: Preparation of energy storage material derived from a used cigarette filter for a supercapacitor electrode [iop.org] .
Hey! (Score:3)
Administrator: What are you guys doing in the lab with all those plants?
Undergrad lab assistant: Testing them for use as supercapacitor electrodes. Yeah. That's the ticket.
Administrator walks away satisfied.
Um, I have to wonder... (Score:3)
Experimenter bias?
How unfortunate ... (Score:3)
The hemp we use is perfectly legal to grow. It has no THC in it at all - so there's no overlap with any recreational activities," Mitlin says.
A shame, isn't it?
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He he, but ropes etc. are made from hemp stems since ages, you missed out on that.
Nut frankly making high tech from them is much more exiting!
forgetful electronics (Score:2)
not superconducting (Score:5, Informative)
A supercapacitor is not superconducting; it just stores a lot of charge.
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It's the dielectric that needs to be an insulator ; these are electrode materials, which you want to be good conductors.
Oh, come now (Score:5, Funny)
Well, every technology has bugs and birthing pains. Keep working at it, and perhaps you can graduate to a better class of hemp, Mr. Mitlin.
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They could grow their hemp in Colorado or Washington, and be dual use: Sell the leaves and buds to the pot shops, and use the fiber in the stems to make supercapacitors.
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Hemp can't replace marijuana, but I'm pretty sure marijuana can replace hemp.
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Hemp can't replace marijuana, but I'm pretty sure marijuana can replace hemp.
Well sure - for baking anyhow....
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The fun begins when the circuits overheat and burn up.
That's when the mad search for Fritos begins, right?
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As I understand it, no. (I'm not a marijuana expert however.) From what I'm told, while the two plants are closely related, marijuana is really good for smoking, but the fibers are not very good for rope-making, whereas hemp has great fibers for rope-making and clothes and such, but sucks for smoking. So basically you can have one or the other, but not both.
It's kinda like trying to use a Prius for hauling plywood and concrete, and a Ford F350 for daily commuting. You could probably get both those combi
Re:Oh, come now (Score:5, Informative)
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Side note, hops are also related to pot
As are pine trees, sharks, monkeys and potatoes. But not humans, we were made by a wizard separately.
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BTW, I never heard of the indica suffix. How different is that from sativa? (I did know about hops though)
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Maybe get monsanto to get involved? (Score:3)
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Eh, some GMO-ing will fix that up in a jiffy...
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but love science when it finds uses for hemp
Because with large scale hemp agriculture, you can always sneak in a few rows of 'the good stuff'.
Re:Potheads assemble! (Score:4, Insightful)
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but love science when it finds uses for hemp
Because with large scale hemp agriculture, you can always sneak in a few rows of 'the good stuff'.
No, you can't - although the belief that you can is apparently what has kept the hemp business shut down in the U.S. for 80 years (and led to Governor Arnold to veto a hemp cultivation measure in California.
The cultivation patterns are completely different. The hemp crop is grown in dense plantings that lead to tall stalks and few leaves, and then the crop is either harvested before it flowers (if an all-fiber farm) or is allowed to go to seed (if hemp seed is also harvested).
Either way there is no way that
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Care to share pointers to the dangers of MJ use? If possible some where it's anyone's business but the person's who consumes it. Note: It's NONE of your business if someone wants to off himself in any way he likes.
Re:Potheads assemble! (Score:4, Informative)
Marijuana doesn't have the same dramatic effects as meth, and there are people who are long-term users who suffer very few side effects from this drug. There is however a small chance that it can lead to temporary or even permanent psychosis. There is still some debate over this issue, but I can assure you it's quite real.
http://www.sane.org/informatio... [sane.org]
http://medicalmarijuana.procon... [procon.org]
A while ago I spent some time in a mental facility and one of the patients there was that unlucky 1 in 700,000 who was vulnerable to the psychotic effects that marijuana could cause. He was a good student who was just starting university. Intelligent, articulate, and with excellent grades - he had good prospects for a long and happy life.
His mother worked as a nurse at that hospital so she could spend time with her son, and I received this information directly from her. At uni he tried marijuana, just a few times. I get the impression he was just a typical uni kid enjoying his new freedom and he started to smoke it because his new social circle were smoking it. Pretty typical stuff. He had an adverse reaction (I think over a short time period of maybe week or so) and had to be hospitalised due to psychosis.
By the time I met him, he had been in hospital for 12 years. He had no teeth left, since he couldn't look after them they had to all be removed. He was heavily medicated but was still liable to fits of anger and hitting other patients for something simple like sitting in his chair. He was barely able to speak and never managed more than a couple of mumbled, often unintelligible words. There was a rec room where we could watch a TV which was behind a plexiglass panel we needed to lift up to change channels. He had a tic that meant every 1-2 minutes he needed to get up, walk to the TV, life the plexiglass, run his hand over the top of the TV, then sit down again. He might do this 100+ times in a day.
While it's easy to think there's no dangers using marijuana, and admittedly, they are few and low - it's not totally without cost or risk. This man will spend the rest of his short life in that mental institution, unable to read, play games, go outside, speak to others, share friendships or talk about the good old days. He will never experience any of the myriad of things that you and countless others can - and that is directly attributed to a fairly small quantity of weed he smoked - he wasn't trying any other drugs at the time.
Certainly, he had a disposition towards this happening, but it was marijuana that pushed it over the limit and completely fucked his entire life.
We have a decent welfare system and free hospitalisation in Australia, so he is getting the care he needs. You could argue that as taxpayers who are shouldering that cost we do get a say in whether people consume the drug or not...but, I'm not going to bother with that argument, it's not the important one.
Enjoy the smoke if you can amd avoid it if that's that you prefer. Just bear in mind, however small, there is a chance of psychosis that may in same rare cases be permanent - and weed is a known contributor to this condition.
Role your dice, move your mice.
Re:Potheads assemble! (Score:4, Insightful)
how many people in the US can die from eating a peanut? almost no non-essential substance is innocuous to everyone.
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But if this is 1/700,000 -- you are below the danger level of side effects to Aspirin.
Peanuts are legal and they can potentially kill more people.
Now we might put a warning label so people can look for the side effects, but this doesn't seem like a threat above "slipping on rubber ducky". Other than paranoia, this is about the third time I've heard of a person almost destroyed by MJ. There are many legal things that are far more dangerous.
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A while ago I spent some time in a mental facility and one of the patients there was that unlucky 1 in 700,000 who was vulnerable to the psychotic effects that marijuana could cause.
As compared to:
As many as 600,000 Canadians (1 - 2% of the overall population) are thought to be at risk of anaphylaxis stemming from food and insect allergy.
-- http://www.aaia.ca/en/anaphyla... [www.aaia.ca]
So what's you point exactly? That marijuana is approximately 10,000 times safer than food?
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I remember seeing a news story about a train conductor who "took marijuana and caused a deadly crash." They also mentioned, almost as a footnote near the end of the story that there were nearly 24 empty Miller Lite beer cans.
So I think we can't rule out something else that could have caused the malady.
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I see a distinct lack of "evidence" in your post.
Great. It's in no way distinguished from the post which I was addressing, then. Providing a link doesn't mean one has provided meaningful evidence.
Re: Potheads assemble! (Score:2)
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Try and grow hemp anywhere near me and I'll cut it all down.
It would ruin my sensi.