Scientists Boost the "Will To Persevere" With Current To the Brain 127
schliz writes "Stanford scientists say they could help boost people's motivation to overcome difficulties by electrically stimulating the anterior midcingulate cortex in the brain. The study involved two patients, who described the 'will to persevere' beautifully. One said it was like driving into a storm front and knowing that he had to get through. From the article: 'Stanford University neuroscientists passed a small current through an area in the part of the brain that deals with error detection, anticipation of tasks, attention, motivation, and emotional responses. Both patients involved in the study had epilepsy, and already had electrodes implanted in their brains to help doctors learn about the source of their seizures."
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What if it just makes them persevere at attempting suicide?
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Have they tried chocolate? I cannot imagine even a suicidal person turning down a good piece of chocolate before they go...with the emphasis being on 'good' as opposed to popular or chic.
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And when they finish one, offer them another piece. Then another. Sooner or later, the chocolate will kick in, and drive them out of their funk.
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What if it just makes them persevere at attempting suicide?
I'm not entirely sure how (if at all) tongue in cheek this was, but I do recall hearing that starting anti-depressants can *increase* the risk of suicide. This is supposedly because one of the first symptoms of depression to improve (before the suicidal feelings have cleared up) is the loss of motivation- and ironically, it was that lack of motivation that was stopping them from carrying out the suicide.
Typical result [go.com] from a quick Googling [google.co.uk] to confirm my memory:-
Doctors admit there is always a risk of suicide when treating a severely depressed patient.As patients start to feel better, energy and motivation sometimes return before the suicidal thinking has faded.
"You get patients who are too depressed to commit suicide," says Dr. David Fassler, a trustee of the American Psychiatric Association who is testifying about the antidepressant safety at the FDA hearing."Patients start treatment and then they feel just better enough to go through with it."
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Lighten up, Francis.
You sound like a douche.
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no he, is not.
FTFY
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"Not to be confused with you, who are a nihilistic insensitive piece of shit who cannot
even punctuate a simple sentence correctly."
You are missing a comma there, after 'shit'.
No he isn't. And your comma is incorrect.
WRONG:
You are missing a comma there, after 'shit'.
CORRECT
You are missing a comma there - after 'shit'.
CORRECT
You are missing a comma there (after 'shit').
I also find your use of single quotation marks (') disturbing. You should be using double quotation marks (").
This has existed a long time (Score:5, Interesting)
a) I recall there being experiments in the 1980s where rodent brains were wired to where the mouse would press a bar to get a jolt to its pleasure center, and it would procede to bang that bar until it passed out.
b) The news and hospitals are filled with people who have already proven that psychoactive drugs such as PCP and angel dust, and of late methamphetamins, will have a "will to perservere" at whatever they're doing (be it tweaking with the heat sinks on a stereo or trying to release demons from one's brain with a hand drill and a piece of metal coat hanger) that lasts for days or until incidental death, whichever comes first.
Re:This has existed a long time (Score:5, Insightful)
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"Except that will to persevere and pleasure are two distinctly different things."
Also, if it is just an electrical current, is it still a 'will'?
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It's an electrical current either way.
From the electrodes or from the neurons.
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As someone who studies organic and artificial neural networks -- Prove it. "Persevere" is such a complex emergent behaviour that there's not really one brain region responsible for it. For instance: When you're just about to have an orgasm, try to stop. It's difficult. There's a "will to persevere" during high pleasure activities, specifically at climax.
Adding energy to a system adds energy to a system...
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be it tweaking with the heat sinks on a stereo or trying to release demons from one's brain with a hand drill and a piece of metal coat hanger
Don't confuse an act of desperation and confusion with an act of will.
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... psychoactive drugs ... trying to release demons from one's brain with a hand drill and a piece of metal coat hanger...
(citation needed)
I have heard a similar story before, but haven't been able to find any useful reference, and have presumed it to be an urban legend. (snopes doesn't have this particular one, as far as i can tell)
As a parent, and occasional teacher of other children, though, more evidence on a subject such as this would be useful, if you have any.
thanks-
Movie idea (Score:5, Funny)
You could make a film about a pile of dead body parts assembled into the form of a man being shocked by lightning and being given the will to live. You could even add some wanton violence and philosophical questions of existence to make the story interesting.
it's alive... ALIVE (Score:2)
I have mod points but I already posted so I can merely suggest this get my proxy +1.
robocop was somewhat like that (Score:3)
robocop was somewhat like that with more the body fully intact and no lightning.
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This is the trolling style I prefer. Well done, sire.
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I hope everyone remembers Slashdot is an international forum and not everyone has the same cultural heritage.
Although everyone in the Western world probably immediately connected with "Frankenstein", those with different cultural heritage may be as unfamiliar with our cultural relics as we are with theirs.
No harm, no foul. [wiktionary.org]
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Even if you live in the backwaters of India (redundant) you are expected to read and memorize TV Tropes [tvtropes.org] before posting to Slashdot.
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I can't think of why anyone who posts to slashdot would not be familiar with the Frankenstein monster.
Perhaps because out of the 7 billion people on this planet, 6,999,999,999 of them are not you.
I can't think of a reason to assume that anyone who posts to slashdot would necessarily be familiar with Frankenstein.
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What cultural heritage would explain being familiar with Robocop but not Frankenstien?
I think 'lack of' seems a lot more likely.
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Now.. if they were from some non-western culture and familiar with neither.. that might make sense.
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You could make a film about a pile of dead body parts assembled into the form of a man being shocked by lightning and being given the will to live. You could even add some wanton violence and philosophical questions of existence to make the story interesting.
You mean Frank Henenlotter's 1990 masterpiece, Frankenhooker [imdb.com] , of which Bill Murray said (and I quote [wikipedia.org]) "if you see one movie this year, it should be Frankenhooker"?
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You could make a film about a pile of dead body parts assembled into the form of a man being shocked by lightning and being given the will to live. You could even add some wanton violence and philosophical questions of existence to make the story interesting.
And don't forget the enormous schwanzstucker [imdb.com].
W.C. Fields would disapprove (Score:5, Insightful)
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
-- W.C. Fields
With that in mind, is it a good idea to get people to continue to engage in futile endeavors? Who says quitting is always a bad thing.
P.S. I started to write this as a joke, but now I'm not so sure. For all we glorify perseverance, sometimes it's idiotic.
ahh yess, ahh yess (Score:2)
I started to write this as a joke, but now I'm not so sure. For all we glorify perseverance, sometimes it's idiotic.
I just think of the old phrase, "why does man climb a mountain? because it's there"... really, is that a valid reason?
Granted, I spent most of a day getting a WiFi card to work with Linux on a circa-2000 notebook and will likely erase the hard drive in the near future. It's the challenge or the adventure or... well, ego, okay?... even if there's really no point in an endeavor. The more dang
Re:ahh yess, ahh yess (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:W.C. Fields would disapprove (Score:5, Insightful)
With that in mind, is it a good idea to get people to continue to engage in futile endeavors? Who says quitting is always a bad thing.
I like this one [despair.com]:
Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are idiots.
Persistence is good if it gets you anywhere, but if you're just obsessing over things you can't do, can't change, can't make work, can't achieve then give up and move on. Particularly I hate people who can't ever accept that the team, the project or someone in authority has made a decision they disagree with and continue to reopen the issue, dredge up old discussions and undermine the decision. I've had one extreme case where a person on the project team was trash talking it to the rest of the company during the official presentation, essentially saying this is what we're delivering and it's crap and not what I wanted or how I'd design it.
My impression is that overall people have too much persistence and can't stop flogging the dead horse, if things are that bad or that hopeless stop trying to make it work and get out. If your boss is a total ass hat, find another job don't try to fix it. If your girlfriend is a total fruitcake don't try to reason with crazy. If nobody wants to buy what you're selling, you're probably wrong about what they wanted in the first place. Move on, try again. Except the exceptions of course, where banging your head on the same brick wall many enough times will lead to it cracking. But I wouldn't waste my head on that.
on your next job application...... (Score:1)
[ ] Initial this box to consent to a motivational brain implant. Failure to initial this box will negatively affect your potential employment.
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That was my first thought, another thing that will be practically required to compete on the job market, oh yay...just wait until those sleep substitute pills hit the shelves.
Re:battle helmet (Score:5, Funny)
You didn't see the old documentary?
Pain the helmet black and your soldier's reaction to dismemberment becomes either "'tis but a scratch" or "that's just a flesh wound", and he keeps on fighting.
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You didn't see the old documentary?
Pain the helmet black and your soldier's reaction to dismemberment becomes either "'tis but a scratch" or "that's just a flesh wound", and he keeps on fighting.
for some strange reason the article made me think of Ludwig Van.
Motivation (Score:4, Funny)
You zap me, and sure, I'll be motivated to do whatever the hell you're zapping me to make me do.
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Problem is that my only motivation is to stop you from zapping. That can be accomplished temporarily by doing your bidding or permanently by killing you.
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Problem is that my only motivation is to stop you from zapping. That can be accomplished temporarily by doing your bidding or permanently by killing you.
You would think that, but the zappers on a deadmans switch.
Now my unwitting minion, about these tasks I have for you.
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So we die together. Fine by me.
The last order in my life is given by me.
Hook me up (Score:2)
Dealing with depression, medication, associated side effects and low energy levels, I need some 'push through it'. Where do I sign up? Will it interfere with my brains internet plug, due to be installed in the 2020's?
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Why would you want to connect your brain to the Internet? Far too great a risk of an NSA virus.
What you want to do is place your brain in a networked, Earthquake-proof, fire-proof enclosure, with an Infiniband connection to a Linux server. This would then be linked, via an OpenBSD firewall, to the Internet and also to some sort of ROV that can act as a relay between brain and body.
Meanwhile, your skull would contain an embedded computer, a massive multiplexer/demultiplexer to link up the nervous system and
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jd, you rascal. Some neat engineering there.
The augmented remote brain - some interesting choices to be had. I wonder to what extent use of one or more expanded senses might have on psyche. One way to find out....
I've been thinking of the dis-embodied consciousness bit on and off for a while, having first met it in some sci-fi from maybe forty years ago. Lately there's been Dmitry Itskov and his 2045 Initiative. On one hand, I'm fascinated, on another, a bit chilled. Yet, the thought that as we get ol
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Thank you! There are indeed lots of choices, which makes things interesting. How to balance/optimize the internal and external brain fragments could be an interesting problem and may even be the basis of another generation of culture wars.
Once the consciousness is externalized, then so long as the API and real-time constraints are consistent, you could have multiple physical bodies. You want to go for a drive? Be the person, then become the car. Eliminates any need for mechanical controls (unreliable) and t
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And you're entirely welcome; the pleasure was mine.
"However, to say my writing varies is like saying gravity isn't uniform." Got the first good laugh of the day, thank you. No worries, you manage fine.
There seem to be two possibly diverging paths - one to cyber (mind in constructs), one to nano-stuff in a physical organic body. I can see uses for both, and possibilities for mixed-mode as well. Sci-fi has done both, and I like the story-telling along with the mind-stretch.
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Burn you brighter, live you shorter. I do not recommend over clocking your organic brains. Consider a hardware upgrade instead.
Impossible! (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'd rather have willpower.
Those who do well in school and life, are not the most intelligent, but the ones with the most willpower to see things through.
Something I've never had the most of unfortunately :(
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Nice. But I'll really believe you when you say something unpopular, like that intelligence is strongly heritable and all the consequences of that, for example.
Not that I'm a materialist, in the end ... sure, a love letter "is" just paper and ink, but that's the least interesting thing about it.
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If you think human behavior is not intangibly arcane, you haven't frequented enough women. Given that this is slashdot, there is no need for further elaboration.
Scientists can zap synapses to make this intangibly arcane stuff more or less variated, so what?
Better living... (Score:2)
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Microsoft don't write any SCADA control applications, do they?
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Re:Better living...Indefinitely? (Score:1)
Paging Mr Wales (Score:2)
"Endeavor to persevere".
Re: Scientists Boost the "Will To Persevere" With (Score:2)
Could turn our lives into a dystopia... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Been there, done that. Beanies are completely ineffective at helping concentration. Yours or anyone else's.
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Current to the anterior midcingulate cortex gave both patients an increased heart rate, physical sensation in the chest or neck, and “anticipation of challenge coupled with strong motivation to overcome it”
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While scientifically interesting, I can imagine a dystopian future where employers mandate their works to wear special "brain helmets" so that they are fully focused on the task at hand...
Sounds like one of the creepiest books I have ever read: Vernor Vinge, A Deepness in the Sky [wikipedia.org] .
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Maybe I'll take up alcoholism, for the holidays.
I can't speak highly enough of alcoholism, myself. It's the only thing that has kept me anaesthetised against the will-to-live-destroying arrogance and stupidity* of the human race.
Still, only another thirty years to go and I can wave this shithole goodbye forever!
* I don't think I'm smarter than the average person, just smart enough to observe our species' behaviour.. and despair.
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Thirty years and hitting the sauce, not the best of odds, but hey, go for it. (I was lucky, back mid-Eighties after twenty years of hard drinking; about the only thing that hadn't been adversely affected was my liver. Go figure.)
"I don't think I'm smarter than the average person, just smart enough to observe our species' behaviour.. and despair." If you can provide for your physical needs, then it's just an uncomfortable state of mind. If your situation is worse, then it gets really annoying, trending t
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Thirty years and hitting the sauce, not the best of odds, but hey, go for it. (I was lucky, back mid-Eighties after twenty years of hard drinking; about the only thing that hadn't been adversely affected was my liver. Go figure.)
I've actually heard that before, quite surprising. Of course, I've also heard the other side.. with the stabbing pains and the doctors warning "drink again and its curtains for you buddy".
If you can provide for your physical needs, then it's just an uncomfortable state of mind. If your situation is worse, then it gets really annoying, trending to flat-out bad, going by personal experience.
Like many a tool, if what these guys have found gets used, some of the uses will be ungood. But for someone caught up in a situation that by most lights just needs for them to apply a little extra oomph, might be a good thing - with consent, of course.
Wise words for sure. Personally I'm all for (voluntary) wire-heading. If a wee current applied judiciously can assist in some cases the next logical step would be a small device to monitor and manage the 'dosage' and at that point it's probably ready to be of use for the public. We've done pretty well with the SSRI/SNRI se
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I agree with your assessment. For me, the kicker, and greatest criterion, is the welfare and health of the patient above and before all else. Too much these days (again, from personal experience, in addition to what I've seen with others and have read) is influenced over-much by admin rules, liability risk assessment driving those policies, and Medicare restrictions (as a for instance, if I had the money I would be prescribed situational and likely sleep supplemental oxygen given that most of my SpO2 is b
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* I don't think I'm smarter than the average person, just smart enough to observe our species' behaviour.. and despair.
Nobody else thinks you are either.
Less intelligent people only see problems while more intelligent people see the solutions. Your despair is due to your inability to find your contribution to the solution. Perhaps you should focus on that.
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Nobody else thinks you are either.
Whoa, I wasn't aware I was speaking to a representative of the entire human race. The honour is all mine!
Less intelligent people only see problems while more intelligent people see the solutions.
Rubbish. Less intelligent people don't bother themselves with problems or solutions because thinking is work and it's much easier to just shovel chips into one's mouth in front of Faux News.
Your despair is due to your inability to find your contribution to the solution. Perhaps you should focus on that.
Thanks for the armchair psychological assessment. I suggest you dial back on the conviction with which you write, especially if you're going to post unfounded rubbish like this.
Or not... (Score:2)
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It was an incompatible finger protocol. You have to upgrade your hand and try again.
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I stuck my finger in an electric outlet once, and my will to persevere in sticking my finger in there was reduced, not boosted.
You must have really, really small fingers.
Not such a big deal (Score:2)
You want motivation? I knew a guy who took two hits of crystal meth and a pint of schapps and was able to overcome a solid wall with his forehead.
It probably didn't do much for his anterior midcingulate cortex, though.
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Age old battle (Score:2)
literal burnout! (Score:1)
How long till.. (Score:1)
This submission (Score:1)
This submission is electrifying the human spirit!
One bourbon, one scotch, one beer (Score:1)
Alcohol-fueled courage is best courage.
My head is empty. (Score:2)
I need a brain to do this. :(
Maybe this doesn't prove anything. (Score:2)
From the article, we have two individuals with obviously abnormal brain function (uncontrolled seizures) that when an electrical charge is introduced in a specific area, it causes them to increase their perseverance (which is somewhat subjective in its measure). Extrapolating those results to a normally functioning brain seems somewhat of a leap. While the research is interesting, it doesn't really prove anything because of the extremely small sample sized, no control group and abnormal brain function to
Gotta love N=2 results... (Score:2)
...otherwise known as "anecdotal reports", not science.
Especially when the "result" being reported is a subjective experience described verbally by the two subjects to researchers looking for the result. What could go wrong?
rgb
Where does one draw the line? (Score:1)
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results." - widely attributed to Albert Einstein.
When does persistence become insanity?
Ancient Indian Texts (Score:1)
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I have cerebral palsy and epilepsy and there description is the before and after of how it feels for me with seizures. Just like some of Hollywood's special effects especially from the 80's on. Some of us were tortured and bled, so other children who couldn't walk now can. Then the technology evolves and other people only see it as mere enjoyment. We'll I commend them for their bravery and what they have given up. Just to help improve the human condition and maybe 1 day a child will not have suffer from cp or seizures. But you who make jokes will probably think I'm a jerk or worse and then go out and buy a mind controlled video game for your enjoyment. I'm glad to see there a few people left who will sacrifice there we'll being at a chance to cure themselves and others
The sad reality is that if this research truly is valid, it is more likely to be used for mind controlled video games than curing people. In a capitalist society, even one with a for profit health care system like the US (where corporations make big money from people being sick), there is far more profit to be had from the next generation xbox than the limited pool of suffers with conditions like yours. More likely than either a consumer product or a medical treatment, however, will be a militarized applic