Nobel Winners Illustrate Israel's "Brain Drain" 214
barlevg writes "Two of the three scientists sharing this year's Nobel Prize in Chemistry have Israeli citizenship, with Dr. Arieh Warshel having been born and educated in Israel, yet both are based at universities in the United States. These two scientists are perhaps the highest profile examples of a growing problem in the so-called "start-up nation," which is known for its high-tech tech companies and scientific innovation, and yet which loses more researchers to emigration than any other western nation. The problem? Large salary gaps between US and Israeli institutions. As Daniel Hershkowitz, president of Bar-Ilan University put it, 'I don't see Israel being able to compete with what they offer in the United States.'"
social/political situation? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The problem? Large salary gaps between US and Israeli institutions. "
Nothing to do with the social/political situation in the middle east? I know the USA social and political situation is kind of crazy, but it seems to be a bit saner at the level of organized groups trying to kick each other off this or that piece of land. I suspect that this has at least SOME effect on people's decisions to emigrate.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:4, Informative)
Only indirectly — having to spend so much time, money, and effort on national defense is hard economically for a tiny country. Despite all the help from the US, it is still a heavy burden on the economy.
Re: (Score:2)
..you mean to say that directly it doesn't affect the motivation of people to stay in a country with instability all around?
btw it's only hard economically if you need to have walls on every border and expect an attack all the time, while occupying parts of your neighbors..
(but the US is a great display of how it can be hard on the economy even for a big country so...)
Re: (Score:2)
The two Israelis I personally know, who immigrated to the US, are quite patriotic and eager to defend their country. Both served in the military and one actually participated in live shooting. They were sad to move, but the opportunities offered to them were too enticing (both were scientist-engineers married to lovely scientist ladies)...
Plea
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Whatever your allegations of special timings (and you don't cite anything to demonstrate the correlation), the actual cost of a flare-up is not that high. What is truly expensive is maintaining readiness for such a flare-up at any moment year after year...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Have you seen Israel on the map? You can't — not without looking hard — it is so small. To assert, that the troubles are due to "land grab" is to show ignorance or dishonesty...
Nice theory, but contradicted by facts: there was no "conquering" until 1967, but the hatred was just the same, if not worse.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I would say that socially people are much warmer in the Middle-East (the kind of thing the media wouldn't cover) and it's one thing you'd actually lose out by moving to North America.
Feel the love (Score:2)
Warmer? (Score:4, Funny)
I guess you haven't heard the joke:
A journalist asked a Russian, American, and Israeli, "Can you please give us your opinion on the food shortage?"
The Russian replied, "What is an 'opinion'?"
The American replied, "What is a 'shortage'?"
The Israeli replied, "What is 'please'?"
Re: (Score:2)
"North America" is an awfully big place... Certainly bigger than all of the "Middle-East". Are you suggesting that ALL of the Middle-East is a warm and friendly place, and that ALL of North-America is not?
Certainly Canada, and most of the northern US is known for being pretty warm and friendly, while New York is... not.
Re: (Score:2)
Lol.
Given that the "West was won" by, when you look at their behaviour, a bunch of raving psychopaths - starting with Columbus - I'm pretty sure "our" assholes fit right in with the already established ones :)
On a more serious note: you can't expect to keep promoting greed and selfishness forever (Ayn Rand "light" seems to be the mainstream political ideology in the USA) without having everyone become infected to some degree with the meme that "everyone is greedy and selfish (except me)". You're no more imm
Re:social/political situation? (Score:4, Interesting)
The middle east is a big place, and the social/political situation is radically different in different places. Israel is currently much safer than it has been for a while.
I grew up in Oman as a kid, and couldn't ask for a more stable and good place to grow up. Though we lived in housing for us, it ended at the bottom of our road, and I used to leave and run about building sites and play with the locals lots.
I agree (Israeli) (Score:4, Interesting)
I tend to agree, this is one of the biggest issues for me personally. There are quite a few other issues such as orthodocs Jews political influence and the fact that there are limited opportunities due to the small size of the country.
But overall the tech industry is pretty much entirely in Tel Aviv/Hertzelia areas (with limited niches in Haifa and even less in Jerusalem). If you look at the voting record the Tel Aviv/Hertzelia area is remarkably left wing liberal (against occupation) while the rest of the country is the exact polar opposite. This generally means the brains (and financial growth) are most likely liberals.
I wanted to immigrate myself but without a foreign nationality starting from scratch is really hard, plus my aging mother is also an anchor. I plan to do it immediately when opportunity presents itself.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:5, Insightful)
As everywhere in the world the dominant language of discourse in science and engineering is English, and US universities continue to dominate the lists of best and most influential institutions of learning.
If you look around at MIT you will note that 50%-60% of the PhD. students are from abroad. And when they get their degree, they see all kinds of attractive job opportunities right where they live. From start-ups to established companies. And yes, it's one of the ways in which the US attracts talent. It out-competes almost everyone else by offering top-notch education, top-notch research, and top-notch jobs. And that isn't about to change (barring short-sighted politics such as de-funding research).
But perhaps the most important of all: the US really does offer anyone a chance to earn their way solely on personal merit. And that's something very precious that's not available in many other countries where "who you know" counts for more than "what you know".
So yes, there is a tremendous pull. But before you bemoan the big bad US of A luring away all the talent, please realize that there is also (in the case of Israel) a substantial push.
Good friends of mine made Aliyah to Israel about 30 years ago. They were well-educated (an economist and a psychologist) learned Hebrew, did their Miluim (military service), one as a private the other as an officer, and found careers in Tel-Aviv.
What they saw around 15 years ago was a country that increasingly transformed itself from a Western country to a Middle Eastern country. Political polarization, rise of religious ultra-orthodoxy, privileges for religious people (e.g. Torah students exempt from the same military service that takes about a month per year from others), .
What they also saw was a country that was basically unwilling to reach a sustainable accommodation with the Palestinians despite the demographic, economic, legal, and humanitarian issues. They felt the consequences of that in person when their reserve army duties took them to e.g. the Gaza strip where they, in army uniform and armed, would have to face off against 16-18 year old Palestinian protestors / rioters and wield batons (or worse) against people who had no education to speak of, almost no wealth, no opportunities or prospects worth mentioning, no realistic way out, and no serious hopes for improvement. If that were a transitional phase, it would be bearable, but was it? It didn't look that way and it still doesn't.
Attempts to persuade the political majority to reach a sustainable settlement did not succeed (if there were any easy and simple solutions they would have been embraced long ago) and indeed a sustainable settlement seemed drifting further away all the time with the (in part religiously motivated) Eretz Israel (Big Israel) idea.
So they were left with the prospect of staying in an intransigent, polarizing and increasingly besieged country where their children would face the same difficulties, only worse, and without the frictionless alternative of having a double passport.
So they decided to leave and they are not alone. Obviously that segment of the population with the most portable assets (intellect) has the best prospects of leaving.
That's the "push" part of the equation.
So, yes, there's brain-drain but a lively exchange of people and ideas is (as I see it) needed for Israel's mental health. Also there are reasons for the brain-drain that have little to do with big bad US gobbling up all the talent.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:5, Informative)
But perhaps the most important of all: the US really does offer anyone a chance to earn their way solely on personal merit. And that's something very precious that's not available in many other countries where "who you know" counts for more than "what you know".
I'll disagree with you on that. There's a lot of economic and sociological literature that says that the U.S. has among the worst social mobility of any country in the world, along with the U.K. A son's income correlates more strongly with his father's income in the U.S. and U.K. than any other developed country. Excuse me for not looking up a citation, but I was particularly impressed by a few articles in Science about that.
This is in contrast, of course, to the myth that we have more opportunity and social mobility in the U.S. There are a few examples like Andrew Carnegie getting off the boat barefoot, but the typical situation is that children follow the family business.
There are many interesting reasons to perpetuate that myth. A lot of Americans like to say, "I made it on my own," but if you probe a little they say, "Yes, my father helped me out, but I made it on my own."
Re:social/political situation? (Score:4, Interesting)
For US society as a whole, social mobility is documented to be abysmally low. However, academia in the US is perhaps one exception to that --- places where people are doing the kinds of research likely to win Nobel Prizes are typically not run on the megacorporate model that dominates the rest of US society. Success in research does not generally come from being golfing buddies with some multi-millionaire executive, but from actually being good at what you do. Granted, there has been a move in recent decades to transition universities to "run like a business" models, with high-paid management and disposable research labor, which is likely to result in US academia moving towards the much less meritocratic state of broader US society.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:4, Informative)
For US society as a whole, social mobility is documented to be abysmally low. However, academia in the US is perhaps one exception to that --- places where people are doing the kinds of research likely to win Nobel Prizes are typically not run on the megacorporate model that dominates the rest of US society. Success in research does not generally come from being golfing buddies with some multi-millionaire executive, but from actually being good at what you do.
There have been studies of Nobel laureates, and Science had a News & Comments story on how they became Nobel laureates and what kind of background they came from. Unsurprisingly, they overwhelmingly came from wealthy, privileged families who were already accomplished in science. Arthur Kornberg was a Nobel laureate; his son Roger was also a Nobel laureate.
That just makes sense, and it's not necessarily bad. I had a friend whose father was a professor, and I learned more sitting around their dinner table than I did from his classes.
OTOH, if you come from a socially and economically deprived background, the barriers are overwhelming. http://www.ronsuskind.com/articles/000034.html [ronsuskind.com] http://www.ronsuskind.com/articles/000035.html [ronsuskind.com] One of the markers for social mobility is the number of black people I see. I go to medical conferences, and the number of black faces are few and far between. (It seems to be a little better in chemical engineering.)
Scientists would like to believe that they get ahead on merit, for the same reason that billionaires like to believe they got ahead on merit. But having a father who is a scientist is the strongest determinant of whether a son becomes a scientist.
Re: (Score:3)
You're right; I should have specified that access to academic meritocracy only occurs after you've gotten "into the system." Coming from a wealthier, well-educated family lets you get a decent primary and undergraduate education, which is a major obstacle facing a large portion of the population not given that opportunity (in common with all of US society). However, once you're in grad school and above, you're generally considered by the quality of your work, not the wealth/connections/lineage you and your
Re: (Score:2)
First off, I'll have to acknowledge that you have a point. Social mobility in the US and the UK is relatively low when compared with other Western countries (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility [wikipedia.org] ). I should have looked at this before I wrote what I did, but I didn't.
However ... and this is a really major "however" for many if not most students who are from India, Pakistan, Bangla-Desh, Malaysia, and parts of Afrika. In the US nobody asks you what tribe you're
Re:Lawn darts / Pay Gap (Score:5, Informative)
Missiles landing in one's backyard is the other.
I'm an Israeli and I've had missiles falling near my house and that's usually not the reason.
The pay gap usually isn't either. Senior professors make $75k and above and it goes a long way in Israel.
Unfortunately, the budget of Harvard at $3.7B is higher than the budget of the entire Israeli academia and they only support 21,000 students. Tel Aviv university alone is nearly 30,000. Giving a scientist $5m for a lab is nearly impossible in Israel. That's why they don't come back after the post-doc.
Re: (Score:2)
Senior professors make $75k and above and it goes a long way in Israel.
I call BS. Cost of living in Israel is substantially higher than in the USA.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Israel&country2=United+States [numbeo.com]
Additionally senior professors make $150k in the USA, so the wage difference is 3-4x in favor of the USA.
Re:Lawn darts / Pay Gap (Score:4, Informative)
In most sciences, professors only make between $60k and $120k, although obviously faculty managing really really big labs could make more.
Re: (Score:2)
$75k is starting salary for a first-year assistant professor in America. Senior professors make two or three times that.
No it isn't [salary.com]
There are a couple of big reasons for this:
1. Most first-year faculty are adjuncts rather than assistant professors. Adjuncts make about $58K if they manage to work full time (most don't).
2. Colleges have been cutting faculty salaries aggressively for faculty who are not yet full tenured professors. What's driving the increase in college costs is actually administration, buildings, and sports, because that's what actually attracts students to a lot of colleges rather than the actual education pa
Re: (Score:2)
What's driving the increase in college costs is actually administration, buildings, and sports, because that's what actually attracts students to a lot of colleges rather than the actual education part.
I know I chose my undergraduate institution based on the size of the administration...... :-)
OK, buildings and sports maybe, but the growth of the bureaucracy is an unfortunate byproduct of the system rather than a recruitment tool.
Re: (Score:2)
$75k is starting salary for a first-year assistant professor in America. Senior professors make two or three times that.
Meh, starting salary numbers aren't terribly useful unless you factor in cost-of-living numbers at the same time.
That being said, I can't believe that Israel wouldn't have a fairly high cost of living.
Re: (Score:2)
The reality: green trees, nice beaches. Very good research institutions and students. Nice nutrition. Nobody is really happy about killing anyone. The youth of most people around me had been wasted mainly on trying to get laid. The weather's too hot though, and research budgets are a bitch.
The approach you feign is as imprecise as describing Texas a state of drug-using, trigger-happy rednecks. Both Israel and Texas are troubled societies; at least everyday lives here rotate around just anything else except that trouble.
I don't think I was "feigning" an approach. I would be interested in any reliable data one way or another that would bear on this issue.
Are you saying that none of the social/political issues has a negative effect on retention? The place does not have to be a wasteland for people to be unhappy with the situation, even if it is fine for the most part. Texas does lose people due to its politics, and it gains people due to its economics. Those are not the only reasons, or probably the main reasons, but they ar
TFS seems confused... (Score:4, Insightful)
Particularly for the scientists and other less-likely-to-be-salary-motivated types, I have to wonder if it suggests that the quality of life, at least for people of the class who have options, that a small country in a mostly-hostile neighborhood can offer just isn't that high.
In the US, for instance, there is a lot of migration, from state to state, or even within the larger states, that would count as 'brain drain' except that the US is huge so both the origin and the destination are American for accounting purposes.
By area, Israel is just slightly larger than Massachusetts, which isn't exactly a big state(and, although it scores pretty well on academic opportunities, quality of life, etc. is hardly retains all the people born there, nor is it even imaginable how it could be world-class at enough things to do so, you can only fit so much, and there is plenty of competition with other virtues).
Re:TFS seems confused... (Score:4, Interesting)
There are plenty of good reasons to live here. Competition for academic jobs here is strong, despite the compensation. But the competition probably helps keep salaries low (although that's true everywhere).
Whatever the reason, low academic compensation helps keep the risk costs low of doing something crazy like founding a startup. So it cuts both ways.
In the meantime, all those drained brains keep contacts with home, meaning Israeli science keeps a higher level of contact with international academia, no bad thing in itself.
Re: (Score:2)
The US pays about twice as much as France does for academics, for example
Salaries are usually higher in US that in France, but you have less expenses in France, thanks to socialized services. Healthcare or kids' education costs much less, for instance
Simple Solution (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, cut Republicans some slack. They cannot simply support science because it stops them from just making shit up...well, it doesn't stop them but it does hold up a competing standard.
"any other western nation" (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Western refers to culture, not to geography.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
It's about funding and staff positions (Score:2)
a lot more then it is about salary, at least for university professors.
For engeneirs it's more about cost of living and specifically cost of housing
Western? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Western? (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends on how much the brain drain is permanent, right after their degree I know many, many of my fellow students that were free as a bird and would jump at the opportunity to work abroad, international work experience, culture, language, seeing the world and so on. Then they think about starting a family and homesickness sets in like a homing beacon. It's one thing to travel around as a hired gun to the highest bidder, it's another to raise kids in a foreign culture. Grandparents want to see their grandchildren and so on. Of course there are two parents, maybe the compromise is neither or they both want to stay but if a fair percentage return home with foreign work experience it might pay off well. It shouldn't be ignored that if you have made decent money in the US you're a rich man in India if you choose to return there.
Re: (Score:2)
India has serious cultural problems contributing to this. "Doctor" is just about the only respected & successful title there, so an inordinate portion of the population becomes MDs... FAR more doctors than could ever be needed in India. So instead they spread out all over the world, looking for work. That's the cause of the predominance of Indian doctors in the US and parts of
This is just stupid. (Score:2)
Where's the statistics that show this "brain drain"? Sure Israel has a high rate of emmigration, but that's because it also has a high rate of immigration, and a large fraction of dual citizenship holders. One of the Nobel Prize winners from TFS actually illustrates this perfectly. Dr. Levitt was born and raised outside of Israel, but is now a citizen and spends six months a year there (according to Wikipedia.) Counting people like him as "emmigrants" is very missledaing.
capitalistic bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
It has very little to do with salary. Nobel-level researchers could earn a hundred times as much by going into banking, if that's what they wanted.
It's about living environment, resources provided to academics, political outlook, and any number of things which normal people not simplifying humans to cogs in a machine use when deciding where to settle. America's response to technically brilliant (though rarely to socially brilliant) people has always been, "Sure, come here and we'll let you do your shit. What do you need? No problem."
Re: (Score:2)
1) Of course research funding is an issue - being part of "resources". Evidence that salary's a concern, please?
2) Highlight my sensationalism pls, and do something about your sweeping "what it means to be an Israeli and grow up Israeli" generalisation, plz. Although a friend who has just finished her compulsory service in the IDF would beg to differ, and she's a first rate geek who rarely has to pick up a gun.
3) Re your Canadian professor wife, why would she expect to begin with a permanent visa? That's ra
Intellectual resources (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Nobody is making them come to the US. It is and has been since WWII the best place to live and work in technology and the sciences.
By far.
While the public schools have below average results as a whole, schools in affluent suburban areas, especially university towns are as good as any in the world. America is far more diverse than most nations, and that diversity accounts for a lot when it comes time to look at rankings in the education system.
US research universities are absolutely world leading. Cal Tech w
not just the salaries (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm an academic and just returned from a sabattical in Jerusalem. I can imagine a lot more reasons for a bright scientist to emigrate than just salary:
- Israel is still a very religious state, with e.g. no civil marriage (you marry before either the rabbi, the imam, the priest, etc, but no religion = no marriage and a mixed marriage means someone must convert). There is a minister of religious affairs and the state in waist-deep in a number of religious issues. Jewish religious schooling is mandatory in most schools. Citizenship is linked to religious/ethnic heritage.
- Israel is a segragationist state, with a large part of its citizens treated as second class (palestinians, bedouin) and there are extremist groups that physically attack people and institutions who strive for more integration and dialogue (see: price tag attacks).
- Israel is an occupying country, its army occupying a territory with over 4M people living in it. You cannot travel through Israel (much less live in it) without seeing the effects of this, in terms of checkpoints, barriers, and a general siege mentality in the population.
- Israel is surrounded by countries that are either hostile, in a civil war, or both. Jordan is an exception but if you go through Jordan you come to Iraq (hostile, civil war), Syira (hostile, civil war), or Saudi Arabia (just hostile). This contributes to the siege mentality in the population.
tl;dr: If you live in Israel, you live in country based on a tight coupling of church and state; you cannot go on holiday except by airplane; your children will face 2/3 years of military service with a good probability of serving in actual combat and occupation duties; whenever you drive over 100 miles you hit a wall (often quite literally); and almost half the people living in the area controlled by Israel are treated as second class at best. It is a bit like moving to 1950's South Carolina but with closed borders so the only way out is by flying through Europe. No, thanks.
Israeli brain drain is nothing new (Score:2)
Gershom Gorenberg [wordpress.com] has brought it up on several occasions. In his view, electoral considerations in the Knesset [prospectmagazine.co.uk] mean that Israel has a less than sane approach to educating the next generation.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't be ridiculous. Fields that are in high demand always lose workers overseas when the pay is better there.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't be ridiculous.
Check the URL atop your browser.
Re: (Score:3)
"Is this an allusion to the cheap Jew thing?"
Not at all. It's not only Israel, most of the US Nobel price winners cannot become president of the United States.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Tricky art, requiring copious support from the codpiece media.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm reluctant to respond, since WTF does this Nobel Prize story have to do with Obama... but nice, idiotic cherry-picked simplification of the Obama presidency and the media.
How about the codpiece media that helped the predecessor launch one of those wars based on lies - to the detriment of maybe winning the other one? How about the codpiece media that repeats and amplifies today's Republican talking points about the need to pay down the deficit, and also repeated the 2001 talking points about how the surp
Re: (Score:2)
> I'm reluctant to respond, since WTF does this Nobel Prize story have to do with Obama...
This is about the US sucking talent out of other nations. That means that people who are NOT BORN HERE work here.
As one of the key legal requirements for the US President is be that he is BORN HERE. That's how this relates to Obama. Schwarzenegger can be governor but not President.
Re: (Score:2)
Since when does spending a year [wikipedia.org] in Israel make you Israeli?
I guess it's a matter of how you define yourself, but to the best of my knowledge, Sacha does not define himself as Israeli.
Shachar
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
And I was wondering what took the hot heads so long...
What is the relevance of this to the post at hand?
Shachar
(at the time I am writing this, the "consequences" are +2 insightful, so you're doing fine so far. As is obvious from my reply, I think "off topic" would have been more appropriate).
When jews export terrorism get back to us (Score:3)
In the meantime I'll be worrying more about the extremist trend in Islam which - surprise surprise - tends to come from the arab countries and their patsies in the backwards *stan nations. Unfortunately this intolerant dim witted view of morality has now spread to africa.
Re: (Score:2)
There it far more of an "extremist trend" in Judaism... It wasn't Arabs or Muslims that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin, it was Jews. And Jews are lucky on the "terrorism" angle because they have a powerful state military to do their bidding rather than needing to resort to terrorist tactics.
The US support of the Jewish stat
Re: When jews export terrorism get back to us (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Ah yes , "racist", the playground insult of last resort for idiot liberals who have no counter argument.
Oh and FYI I'm not even american so your cartoon misses its target by a long way.
Re: (Score:2)
All the states in the mid-east are illegitimate, their boundaries were drawn by the colonial powers. They aren't really countries so much, except for Israel, as they are containers for tribes and sects. Oh, and by the way, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem became a gruppen-fuhrer in Hilter's Nazi Germany. He had his own squad of SS in Balkans rounding up Jews for extermination and hoped to export that little policy gem to the Mid-East.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Right, because Europe doesn't have any prestigious academic institutions doing prize winning research. And I'm sure being in a perpetual state of war on their own soil just does wonders for the Israeli economy and ability to fund fripperies like science and technology.
We could do with some real socialism here, instead of the crony-capitalist half-measures we get from our system of compromises.
Re: (Score:3)
Prestigious — maybe. Higher-paying — no. Europeans live a little richer than Israelis, because they — as you rightly point out — don't have to spend so much on defense. But only the US, thanks to its still strong Capitalism, can afford both — top military and scientific research.
Re:The amount of Socialism... (Score:4, Insightful)
You do know the red threat basically ended almost a quarter a century ago? The only thing socialism threatens you with now is better healthcare, and welfare (at a price, admittedly).
Socialism =/= Big government.
Re:The amount of Socialism... (Score:4, Insightful)
The only way for socialism to work is via big government because it requires that the government take-to-give. Heck, the two largest budget items are Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, which are both insolvent. And yes, both are even larger than Defense spending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png).
What you meant was Socialism =/= Communism, which is just socialism enforced by a government that controls all of the businesses.
What the US needs is less government, which includes a smaller defense budget, as well as less interference through social programming (intentionally not "programs"). The idea that we cannot go back to even 2008 levels of spending--before the supposedly one-time bailouts and otherwise huge deficits--is ludicrous. Socialism will break the back of an already weakened economy that cannot support the government that does not even bother trying to support itself by avoiding disgustingly high deficits.
Re:The amount of Socialism... (Score:4, Interesting)
The only way for socialism to work is via big government because it requires that the government take-to-give. Heck, the two largest budget items are Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, which are both insolvent. And yes, both are even larger than Defense spending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png).
What you meant was Socialism =/= Communism, which is just socialism enforced by a government that controls all of the businesses.
What the US needs is less government, which includes a smaller defense budget, as well as less interference through social programming (intentionally not "programs"). The idea that we cannot go back to even 2008 levels of spending--before the supposedly one-time bailouts and otherwise huge deficits--is ludicrous. Socialism will break the back of an already weakened economy that cannot support the government that does not even bother trying to support itself by avoiding disgustingly high deficits.
To tell you the truth all of this conservative right-think vs. liberal wrong-think you Americans have got going is something I'll never understand. I don't really see the difference between parties like your Democrats who adopt many Social Democrat ideas and Conservatives who profess to favor free market capitalism. They both practice socialism, they just do it differently. With the Soc. Dems. it's is usually vote fishing by handing entitlements to groups that didn't earn them, i.e. schemes like "lets take all those fat private pensions and nationalize them, then lets pay out equally to everybody regardless of how much they paid into the system or whether they contributed at all". Another favorite with the Soc. Dems. is taxing the middle classes and businesses to death and levying ridiculous taxes on property that forces people to move out of houses that have been in the family for generations and that have become quite valuable due to real estate prices rising sharply over the decades (in city centers for example) because they can't afford the property taxes. WIth the conservatives it's usually corporate socialism. They deregulate the financial industry, cause a recession, the banks have to write off massive amounts of debt to companies and subprime lenders and it is Joe/Jane Suburbanite (and eventually their kids) plus smaller businesses that end up footing the bill to bail out banks and big byzantine corporations because they are job-providers and not bailing them out would put people out of work and that's not worth many votes in the next election. Mind you, much as they profess to hate things like Medicare, Bush Jr. didn't seem to have any problems fishing for votes by handing out $8.4 trillion in unfunded obligations with Medicare D so it's not as if right thinking Conservatives are above borrowing ideas from evil Socialists.
Re: (Score:2)
And neither is socialism. The kind of closest thing to socialism that actually exists are employee stock ownership plans. Well, actually worker cooperatives are even closer, almost the real deal, but they are few and far inbetween.
Re: (Score:3)
For Cuba socialism was a big improvement over the previous regime. I know, one of my friends in college was a refuge.
The inner cities were crime-infested neighborhoods populated by people born there to parents born there before welfare. All welfare is and ever will be is an effort to relieve some of the pressure. Go read about living conditions during the Guilded Age.
Unfortunately some of your links regarding education don't work because the Teahadists have the government shut down. Really, though it has al
Re: (Score:2)
WOW... that's amazing...
A Slashdotter who calls the Likud - Yisrael Beitenu [wikipedia.org] coalition government "socialist". Now I have seen everything.. I bet Avigdor Lieberman [wikipedia.org] would not be impressed if you called him a pussy-footed Socialist to his face.
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Interesting)
No need to exaggerate, the published figures warrant GP's question already.
Since 1985, it has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel, with Israel being the largest annual recipient of American aid from 1976 to 2004 and the largest cumulative recipient of aid since World War II.
You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation should be the largest recipient. The same article also answers the question of why this is mostly not being spent on scientists' salaries:
Almost all U.S. aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance, while in the past it also received significant economic assistance
source [wikipedia.org]
The interesting question is whether this is really in the best interests of the US citizens, or just the senators and congressman who stand to lose their jobs if they get on the wrong side of AIPAC.
In addition many Individuals in the US are helping finance the bits of Israel which (even) the US government refuses to support officially, viz the illegal settlements (according to international law). They get to do this tax free in many cases though, which the elected government could easily stop if it wanted (and dared) to.
Of course there are lot of reflexive Israel supporters on /. so critical questions get modded down. But established political scientists are starting to ask the same things, see e.g. this [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3)
It is in best interest of US, because they effectively provide extremist islamists with a huge target they hate far more then US and that is close enough to be easily reachable, making it a good lightning rod for most of the violent terrorism and extremism of that kind.
There are of course other factors in play, such as power of mostly jewish financial lobby, but realpolitik suggests that Israel as lightning rod-approach largely works.
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think it works that way. Much of the resentment felt towards the US throughout the ME is not just because of their one-sided support for Israel, but mostly because of their support for the brutal regimes of their countries (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc).
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think it works that way.
But it does work that way. You should pay attention to exactly how much money those countries with "brutal regimes" pay various terrorist groups/handlers/etc to target Israel. And not to mention the arab press. If your view held true, then it would be difficult to explain Libya which is now being over run by terrorist groups.
Re: (Score:2)
If it weren't for notifications I would have missed your late reply... Now I'm guessing you have those enabled as well or you'll miss mine.
I think most of the groups you might mean, like Hezbollah and Hamas, are backed by Iran, which along with Syria happens to be the exception to the regional rule of US-backed dictatorships. Which explains why they are poorly funded, as Iran is crumbling under the sanctions. So while Iran certainly is in their corner, as it were, these organizations end up being funded mos
Re: (Score:2)
No, it does work that way.
Although they will not admit it, Israel is very convenient for the leaders of Middle Eastern countries. Why take the blame for your country's problems when you can rally the people around dislike for Israel instead?
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Interesting)
Yours was a reasonable comment, rare for the topic on these forums. Let me fill in a bit:
The aid to Israel was tied to the 1978 peace treaty with Egypt. Same with the aid to Egypt. We pay them to keep the peace.
Peace and stability at least on part of the middle east is in our national interest, and many would argue it's worth a few bucks.
The aid is mostly in the form of American weapons, it acts like a subsidy to our own arms industry. Most of the money stays in the US.
It also keeps them from buying weapons from the Russians or Chinese. The region has been an arms sales showroom for a half century or more and we want them hooked up to our brand, evolving our technology.
The crazy thing is the idea of sealing a peace treaty with weapons transfers, but there are numerous social, financial, and geopolitical forces in play to keep it so.
It's far more complex than just lobbyists, not that they don't play their part.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, sure it is more complex than just lobbyists, but I don't think it could have gone so far out of whack without concerted efforts to make it so. Just my opinion, of course.
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Insightful)
You left out that the result of American military aid is that their armed forces are now dependent on the U.S. This gives the U.S. leverage to tell them to knock it the fuck off when they start getting in each other's business. In short, they have to keep the peace or they won't have much to fight with.
US cutting down on military aid (Score:2)
That aid to Egypt's army caused it to build an economic empire that controls (by some estimates) up to 40% of Egypt's economy.
Just in the past few days, there is talk about winding down the aid to Egypt's military, and this is welcomed there by both ultranationalists who see the US meddling with Egypt for too long, and the revolutionaries who see the above empire as something to rein in.
In all cases, cutting that aid means the USA loses leverage with the most populous Arab nation, one with a peace treaty an
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer is obvious given the way Washington works. They have a very well run lobby group with good connections to people that set policy. That's the major difference between Israel and any other country with a large US expatriot population.
Wind back not very many years and there's all those people, including currently serving Senators, that were sending money to the IRA at a time when it was being used to buy materials for bombs. Morality tends to get ignored in US international relations.
Re: (Score:2)
You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation should be the largest recipient.
You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation such as the US should be the largest international debtor. Same logic?
Also, you get your newest and fastest Intel CPUs from Israeli labs so if Israel ever goes out of business, there will be a lot of outrage on teh Intertubes. :-)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The catch is that the Israeli military aid is conditional on 70% being exclusively spent on products and services from US defense contractors. It is essentially a backdoor way to provide more money for districts with influential congressmen.
In the late 90's the economic and military aid was roughly split 50/50 at around $1.8B military, $1.2B economic. A plan was instituted to reduce the economic aid to $0 over time (reached in 2008). Theoretically this would have saved the US taxpayers some money but instea
Re: (Score:2)
That they're an ally is not disputed but doesn't explain why they were, for decades on end, the largest recipient of "aid". Israel is not a poor country. Lots of other allies, rich and poor alike, get nothing.
It's geopolitical strategy, in other words.
Also you're a bit too quick on the draw with the barbarian rhetoric. Look up "civilization, cradle of". If you are of the persuasion that group A is 100% civilized and group B is 100% barbaric, you're not looking very carefully. In fact it makes me think you'r
Re: (Score:2)
It's geopolitical strategy, in other words.
Well, we can't have that, I guess.
Re: (Score:2)
It's geopolitical strategy, in other words.
Well, we can't have that, I guess.
Not masquerading as "aid", in my opinion, no.
Re: (Score:2)
Because they are civilization, and not barbarians intent on world domination? Because they are surrounded by barbarians?
And we should care about this why? Why should we be the police in this context but not the others? Is Israel incapable of solving their own problems?
Re: (Score:2)
...either that or a student of history and someone that actually follows the news.
Re: (Score:2)
The Jews have been the biggest geeks in Europe for 2000 years. Attempting to claim stuff done in Israel is of "western origin" is rather disengenous.
Re: (Score:2)
The USB flash drive was really obvious : use a general purpose data + power standard for storage. About as impressive as a PCMCIA memory card or a ZIP drive on a parallel port.
Other stuff on the list is more interesting but other countries do that kind of stuff too, and Israel is basically a western country with lots of foreign support formed in the aftermath of WW2 which was an immense and high tech war. I'm sure you can take other small countries like the Nederlands, Belgium, Austria or one US state and c
Re:Rocket science isn't required for this one, fol (Score:5, Interesting)
As an actual Israeli, I assure you that it is not a barren desert. There are 2 "major" deserts in the South of the country, and even in the desert there are huge green spots. A lot of the country is greener than almost any place you will find. Even some of the drier parts have been made green. For an American, I'd describe it more as the greener parts of Northern and Southern California depending on which part of the country. For a small country, there's a lot of variation.
Why would someone want to stay? As someone who grew up in Israel, left, and came back, I can answer that vs. the USA.
1. A different, more relaxing in certain senses lifestyles. Families in Israel tend to be closer I find, and there's more of a sense of community in most places. Even non-religious people for example tend to get together for Shabbat (Sabbath) dinner every week and eat great food, drink wine, chat, etc.
2. Different pace of life. Faster in some ways, slower in others. I feel people tend to value personal connections more as well. So much so, the entire country works on connections which can also be a problem.
3. Despite the racist and ridiculous posts in this article, Israelis have a deep connection to the land that dates back very far in most cases. It's hard to explain to an outsider, but it's always been our home. You can argue who owns what, but I can tell that a lot of land and other things have been usurped from my own family in the past. Our people have been massacred in Israel as well as obviously abroad, and we have a long memory. We have a tie to our land and for a lot of us, it is the only place we can feel safe. I feel safer in Israel than America, both in terms of crime and in general. No, there aren't suicide bombers and missiles landing everywhere, but on the other hand some places can be rather unsafe at times depending on political conditions. Even so, people fight on.
4. National Health Care and arguably better retirement options. This is just a disaster in America, sorry.
5. More freedoms in many ways. In Israel, you can start a campfire without a strike force of park rangers descending on you asking for permits and other nonsense.For better or worse, many day-to-day laws are treated more as a suggestion. Things get resolve, people get fined or even arrested, but it's a middle-eastern culture with democracy, which encourages a lot of "I'll do whatever I want." Take it or leave it.
6. Great food. I eat better at Cafes and Coffee shops in Israel than in many "fine" restaurants in America.
7. A mix of old world and new. It's comforting to me at least to be able to get things without chemicals, packaged 100 times, and that are actually fresh and homemade. At the same time, it's modern enough I can get most of everything
8. Culture. Israeli culture is very rich, and people don't really realize it until they're gone. This is why you see a lot of Israelis abroad hanging out with other Israelis, going to synagogues when before they were not religious, etc.
9. A belief in ourselves. The nasty things people say about Israel (ex: this thread) bring us closer together and sometimes make us realize it's the only place we can call home. It's amazing so many people care about such a tiny country and makeup such nonsense. You could at least read our history and visit a few times (better yet live here) before you make unfounded ridiculous comments.
10. Hot people. There's a lot of hot people. Really, there are. Good place to find a husband or wife.
Why leave?
1. Everything is very very expensive.
2. Did I mention everything is expensive? Well, maybe not street food.
3. Israeli universities are not be funded well. In fact, they are in many cases funded less than 40 years ago.
4. Children. It's a great place to raise them, but some parents just don't want to send their kids to the army. I view this as a sign of weakness and disloyalty, but on the other hand I can understand parents protecting their children. Mostly the army is not so heroi
Re:Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
And the Jews were carted off by by the Babylonians and forced out by the Romans, they weren't given a choice. And when Islam took over, that peaceful religion, all other religions were persecuted to varying degrees that changed over time. Go ask Saudi Arabia to set up a Christian church and see how far you get. So yeah, the Palestinians are the ones who were left standing after helping to chase out the others.
Re: (Score:2)
No, religious bigotry is timeless.
Re: (Score:2)
islam-bashing again? isnt that so 2009?
Uh well... Islam didn't go anywhere, and it hasn't really changed in the four years since, so.. no?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's kind of silly to worry about who 'owns' the land by historical right, when all of us live on land that was stolen from someone else, and all of us maintain our claim by force.
On a wholly separate topic, Monday is Columbus Day in the US...