Condensation On Your Beer != Good 275
An anonymous reader writes "Turns out that condensation on your favorite chilled beverage is a bad thing for keeping it cold. Two researchers conducted an experiment in their bathroom proving that condensation can raise the temperature of your beer by nine degrees!"
wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Interesting)
By the time there's any condensate to wipe off the glass, hasn't the damage (i.e. heat from condensation) already been done? That's what warms the glass and its contents, not the water remaining on the side. So wiping it off won't prevent the warming.
Re: wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
They increase the surface area, but depending on their shape increase the volume of water that would also need to be warmed if the glass and therefore its contents were also to be.
Re: wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Funny)
In the time it has taken you guys to debate this, I drank three beers. Fast enough that there was no time for condensation to take place.
But carry on with your theories. I salute you.
Re: (Score:3)
I almost choked on my M&M's! Sir, I salute you for making my day!
Re: wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Funny)
In the time it has taken you guys to debate this, I drank three beers. Fast enough that there was no time for condensation to take place. But carry on with your theories. I salute you.
They debated for 20 minutes and you posted at 11 AM on a Thursday.
Google: +rehab +<your zipcode>
Re: wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually what I think is happening is probably the opposite of evaporative cooling. When you sweat for example, it makes you cold because as the water molecules are evaporating into a gas, it takes heat energy with it.
Now condensation on the other hand results in the opposite. The heat from the water molecule is then put into the system (i.e. the glass of beer) so the water molecule sticks to it because it no longer has the energy it needed to remain in its gas form.
In which case, wiping the condensation off doesn't reduce the temperature. In fact, it might actually be counterproductive because that water is no longer there to evaporate again, resulting in the cooling effect.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Informative)
By the time there's any condensate to wipe off the glass, hasn't the damage (i.e. heat from condensation) already been done? That's what warms the glass and its contents, not the water remaining on the side. So wiping it off won't prevent the warming.
What you said is correct: wiping will not help, as the condensation process is what causes the heating. The most telling bit comes from TFA:
“Probably the most important thing a beer koozie does is not simply insulate the can, but keep condensation from forming on the outside of it,” said Dale Durran, a UW professor of atmospheric sciences.
So either we start seeing stein-shaped koozies at our local dive bar... or nothing will really change from this "finding".
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Insightful)
They're drinking beer out of a can?? Well I guess that makes since. You have to keep the standard mainstream American beer very cold so you can't taste it.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most beer shouldn't be ice cold to begin with. Good beer at least. I agree with your sentiments about the mass market fizzy piss they call beer though.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
The taste isn't diminished THAT much by cold unless you're serving it ice cold. (colder than fridge temperature).
You may taste more of warm beer, but for some (including me) this is outweighed by the fact that it's warm. I find near room-temperature drinks (or food) of any kind pretty gross. It feels like drinking from a still swamp. Ugh. It's got nothing to do with the taste.
The same observation about 'warm' beer can probably be made about anything. Probably room-temperature sorbet has more taste tha
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Informative)
Every country has its fair share of fizzy piss lager, but credit where credit is due, I was just reading about how American craft beers have inspired [bbc.co.uk] British brewers in recent times, so I think the days of scoffing at US beer should be over.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Informative)
American craft beers are also quite influential in Scandinavia, among both beer drinkers and as an influence on the local brewing scene. Brooklyn Brewery is popular enough that they're opening a brewery in Stockholm [brooklynbrewery.com] to fill local demand without having to ship the beer.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, speaking as a British beer snob who's travelled the US coast-to-coast, there are astonishingly good craft beers in shops throughout the US. They tend towards the very hoppy pale ale, which I absolutely love, and they have inspired more of that kind of beer in the UK.
However, Bud Lite, PBR etc. are definitely blander than any of the mainstream British/European lagers served in British pubs.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, speaking as a British beer snob who's travelled the US coast-to-coast, there are astonishingly good craft beers in shops throughout the US.
Speaking as a science snob, the mass market American beers are some of the most impressive feats of industrial and chemical engineering today. When you talk to a craft brewer and ask them what makes their beer special, they'll tell about the effort, the love, and the hops. If you filter out the hippie bullshit, and if they have a clue, they'll patiently explain ab
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they aren't as expensive to make and reasonably easily replicated by someone else who will sell it cheaper?
Take your $500 bottle of scotch. It's probably aged for 25 or 30 years. So if I decided to make a competitor it would take me 25 years from when I started to bring it to market. And on every one of those 25 years I'd have to decide "I won't sell it all this year and make some money to pay the bills, I'll instead age it some more".
Though I suspect the real answer is that wine and whiskey snobbery are off the charts. A $500 bottle of wine is quite possibly nicer than a $25 bottle of wine - it's not $475 nicer though. Wine just happens to be a luxury good that people use to show off wealth and hence the wealthy will spend a lot of money on it just so that everyone knows they have a lot of money. Beer doesn't have that status and hence people won't pay such ridiculous sums for it.
That doesn't mean that "premium" beer isn't much better than "non-premium" beer. In fact it's a great thing for people who happen to like "premium" beers.
Re: (Score:3)
If that doesn't impress the holy fuck out of you, then engineering probably isn't for you.
There's no arguing there's some serious *science* that goes into the precision and consistency of a macrobrew. But there's a difference between appreciating the engineering and enjoying a flavor.
I've paid $25 for a bottle of beer. I think I've heard of people paying $50 for limited editions. That's probably a factor of 50 - 100 over the cheapest stuff, and in line with the examples you cited. Now you won't find that in restaurants very much, true, but I think the fancy beer market just goes on in other aren
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Insightful)
Expensive wine takes ages to age, and it's rare. It's not necessarily fantastic compared to more reasonably priced wine. Same with whisky. Beer? Yeah, I suppose you could hand-select your grains and hops, and use your private limited supply well water ... but, as you say, water chemistry for brewing is pretty straight forward science (and common knowledge even among homebrewers, so I suppose there's nerd spooge in your average craft beer as well), so it's not like you can't get identical but more consistent results with reverse osmosis and a handful of mineral salts.
The reason why beer snobs dislike your Bud is because it doesn't taste much like all. It's designed primarily to be inoffensive. You might as well ask why music snobs prefer Arnold Schönberg to Justin Timberlake, when the latter has had contributions from market research and advanced statistics to make music that's perfectly acceptable to a much larger share of the market.
Of course, you're also full of shit when talking about craft brewers. Hardly any of them know anything about the soil their hops come from (they source them from the same farms that grow for the macros), and if you hear much hippie bullshit, you're most likely talking to their PR guy. Brewing is geeky stuff, the big guys just have bigger toys.
Re: (Score:3)
There are $500 bottles of beer, they're just rare. Actually that's the reason they're $500.
Expensive wines are expensive for two reasons: They're very good wines and they're rare. Only so many bottles can be made in a particular year and so they are sought after when they're good. So the price goes up.
Beer doesn't last as long, you can't have fifty year old vintages of a beer. A fifty year old oak keg of beer will have some nasty swill in it rather than anything you'd want to drink.
Since beer goes bad, you
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Funny)
Ummm, I'd think very carefully about drinking that...
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Interesting)
Your reflexive disdain is outdated. Lots of craft brewers are going to cans, at least here in Colorado. Much easier to take camping, lighter, probably cheaper and just as easy to recycle. Also, unlike even brown glass, and much better than pale glass, a can won't let *any* light through, so the beer is less likely to skunk.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
However, the staple american beers are still crap piss lagers.
Outside of major cities, you still find many bars where the options are "Bud, Bud Light, and Miller", to quote one bartender that I ran into a few years back (A friedn and I, we walked in to grab a beer and use the bathroom, he saw us on our way to the bathroom first and commented that it was for customers only, we planned to have a drink anyway so we asked what they had, after he answered we looked at eachother and walked out)
There is a reason t
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not arguing at all about the low quality of the majority of macrobrews, and I also don't argue that the majority of American beers sold are cheap.
My point was that you can't assume just based on the form factor that what's inside is one of those cheap macrobrews. One reason they don't sell a 30-pack of Fat Tire in cans is because it would retail at around $40, and few people want to shell that out at once. Also, it's got a higher alcohol content, so maybe you don't need to drink quite as many in a given
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Your reflexive disdain is outdated. Lots of craft brewers are going to cans, at least here in Colorado. Much easier to take camping, lighter, probably cheaper and just as easy to recycle. Also, unlike even brown glass, and much better than pale glass, a can won't let *any* light through, so the beer is less likely to skunk.
Think of a can as a small hand held keg. No real difference in the storage container other than size.
Of course the storage conditions have an affect so be careful where you buy your beer. Kegs stay in a cool location. Cans sometimes are kept cool and sometimes are 'stored' in rather warm conditions.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Bottle conditioning just means letting the final bit of fermentation occur in the bottle, which carbonates it naturally. Homebrewers rely on this because they don't have ways to inject CO2 into the system. Some traditional breweries use this method still, mostly smaller or older operations, though there are other exceptions. I'm not really aware of any significant changes in the character of the beer based on bottle conditioning other than it does leave a bit of yeast behind as sediment in the bottle. Many
Re: (Score:3)
Oh, forgot to add. The local liquor store has two floor-to-ceiling sets of shelves where you can assemble your own mixed six-packs. I was surprised to notice the other day they'd reorganized and a full three shelves (out of 12 - 14 total) contained only cans, none of them macrobrews like Bud/Miller/Coors. All were craft brews.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Informative)
The can may spoil it for you, but "skunk" is actually a technical term. It's a chemical process where some of the hop chemicals react with sunlight and convert into something else which literally provides a slightly skunky smell. If you want a good reference, Corona is a classic case of a heavily skunked beer. (I think that's why a lot of people drink it with the lime, to cover up the smell.) It's also part of the Mexican lager standard style - in their case they expose the beer to a burst of ultraviolet light during production specifically to create the effect, and can get away with clear bottles because additional skunking won't make much difference.
Miller, on the other hand, created a variation of the hop chemical which provides bitterness but doesn't react to light. That's how they can get away with clear bottles for one of their lines of beer - it won't skunk no matter what.
Re: (Score:3)
Craft and imported beer comes in cans these days.
Much safer to drink in my pool than glass bottles.
Re: (Score:2)
So either we start seeing stein-shaped koozies at our local dive bar... or nothing will really change from this "finding".
At least, just drink from a smaller glass. That way, you can finish it sooner and replenish it from the original low-temperature supply. How this works out from a price perspective is between you and the bartender.
All this assumes super cold beer is desirable (Score:5, Insightful)
The condensation pays a latent heat penalty, warming the beer when the beer is super cold. But conversely the evaporation pays back the latent heat penalty at some higher temperature. Where the equilibrium point is I'm not sure.
But there is an easy solution to this problem: mist the outside of your beer glass with cold water. This will tie up all the condensation nucleation sites without paying the latent heat penalty.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
But there is an easy solution to this problem: mist the outside of your beer glass with cold water.
Seriously? Sure, and assuming a spherical cow....
Re:All this assumes super cold beer is desirable (Score:5, Funny)
Re:All this assumes super cold beer is desirable (Score:4, Informative)
the equilibrium point will be roughly at the dew_pt or wet_bulb_temp of the ambient environment. The wet_bulb_temp will approach ambient temp as the % humidity rises, hence, the quick-warming pitchers in the average crowded college watering hole.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
I'd think wiping it off would accelerate the warming - it allows for new condensation to form, bringing the temperature between the beer and the atmosphere closer to equal. It's like hugely accelerating the evaporation of the condensation.
Not surprised that condensation warms the beer (duh!) but I'm surprised how great the effect is.
Re:wait, will wiping off help? (Score:5, Interesting)
You're right. Water has a high heat of vaporization. The amount of energy required to vaporize a given amount of water is close to 5 times the amount of energy that would be required to heat that same amount of water from 0 C to 100 C.
So think of it as being a bit like taking the amount of water in the condensate, heating that to 500 C* and adding it to your beer. (* heating to that temperature without vaporizing)
Re: (Score:2)
By the time there's any condensate to wipe off the glass, hasn't the damage (i.e. heat from condensation) already been done?
Wiping probably makes it worse - expose fresh cold glass to the air for more condensate.
.
Re: (Score:3)
It will But not for the reason you think. People who actually drink beer, and understand it will know that a cold beer is actually a bad for the taste. The colder the beer is, the less you will taste it. The idea that you should get beer super chilled (as opposed to just a bit cool in the fridge) is mostly propagated by the makers of such swill as Budd and Coors. They actively don't want you to taste their beer (just drink it), and hence try and convince everyone that super cold beer is wonderful.
Re: (Score:2)
Just in time for cinco de mayo (Score:5, Interesting)
Now how about an experiment about the optimal water quantity for a wet t-shirt contest? Something about capillary action certainly has to be discovered...
Re:Just in time for cinco de mayo (Score:4, Interesting)
Now how about an experiment about the optimal water quantity for a wet t-shirt contest? Something about capillary action certainly has to be discovered...
I'd rather be involved in the next 15-year study to confirm the latest findings on saggy breasts [livescience.com].
Localized Warming! (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Localized Warming! (Score:5, Funny)
I tried to start that movement, but soon everyone was at lagerheads.
the bathroom is where you return your rented beer (Score:5, Funny)
>> Two researchers conducted an experiment in their bathroom
A lot of my stories that end with "and then we were both grounded for a month" start that way too.
Re: (Score:3)
>> Two researchers conducted an experiment in their bathroom
A lot of my stories that end with "and then we were both grounded for a month" start that way too.
I imagine a lot of stories that start that way end with "...and 9 months later, you were born!"
(for fans of Sexy Loser)
(for those who don't know, don't look it up at work)
Fundamental thermodynamics (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Fundamental thermodynamics (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod parent up, it's not even surprising.
If this is a new discovery for someone then it's really an indication of how bad education is in the western world.
Re: (Score:2)
Incredible (Score:2)
That's incredible.
They should file a patent in order to protect their original research.
They would get billions from fridge/heat pump/cooling tower manufacturers or anybody who sweats!
Nine degrees scared me. (Score:4, Informative)
Note to international readers: That is 9 degrees Fahrenheit. It's not as bad news for the summer days as it looks!
I just have so say (Score:2)
Nice submission. News for Nerds, Stuff That Matters indeed.
Beer that needs chilling is, uh, well... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
No matter where you live beer served near freezing is only done to cover up the fact that is it garbage.
Get a second fridge set that bad boy to 45F-50F, keep your beer in it.
Re: (Score:2)
Warm beer on a hot summer's day? Um, yeah, that sounds soooo appetising.
Re:Beer that needs chilling is, uh, well... (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Stella is overpriced crap, for the same money you could buy good beer.
2. No one said warm, celler temp is what you want.
Re: (Score:2)
Ignorant beer snobs are so amusing.
Re: (Score:2)
You chill beverage to hide the unpleasant flavors. Good beer is best served just at or slightly below room temp. Keep it in a cool, dark place - it's ready when you are. Colonials ::sigh::
Like wines, the customary serving temperature of various beers depends on the type. And personal preference. Stuffy Brits ::sigh::
Re:Beer that needs chilling is, uh, well... (Score:5, Funny)
Yep, keep it in a cold dark place. England!
Re: (Score:2)
My favorite temperature for serving beer (that I'll tolerate drinking) is roughly the ambient temperature of a typical cellar in Ireland in the Spring and Autumn.
Gee, I wonder why that is...
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, and...? (Score:2)
Beer is certainly "stuff that matters." And the fact that condensation transfers heat to the surface of the glass may be "news" to some folks. But the number of "nerds" who didn't already know this must be quite small.
OTOH, it's an excuse to talk about beer. Matter of fact, I'm having one right now. ;-)
Cheers!
Re: (Score:2)
OTOH, it's an excuse to talk about beer. Matter of fact, I'm having one right now. ;-)
Well, what did you have? I just enjoyed a couple of cheap-ass Grafenwalder [ratebeer.com] from Lidl, Finland.
Re: (Score:2)
Taiwan Gold Medal [beeradvocate.com] on tap. Nothing special, really, but cheap and quite drinkable. And being locally produced, it's quite fresh, especially from the keg.
Chilling news ... (Score:2)
Says who? (Score:2)
Most beer is served way too cold, since bars tend to keep everything at piss water lager temperature.
Proper beers are better at celler temperatures instead of near to freezing. Anything that helps get a beer back up is fine by me. Most places I have to order two beers to start so I can let one warm while I drink the other.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
A man walks into a bar and orders three beers.
The bartender brings him the three beers, and the man proceeds to alternately sip one, then the other, then the third, until they're gone.
He then orders three more and the bartender says, "Sir, I know you like them cold, so you can start with one, and I'll bring you a fresh one as soon as you're low."
The man says, "You don't understand. I have two brothers, one in Australia and one in the Ireland. We made a vow to each other that every Saturday night, we'd still
So would that mean (Score:2)
What do you call insulated beverage sleeves? (Score:5, Funny)
While on a float trip in Arkansas many years ago, a friend in a bikini offered me a titty. Shock turned to disappointment when I learned that in parts of the South Central US, those foam beverage sleeves are known as "Tiddies" for the Texas-based manufacturer of such foam-rubber products. But my beer did stay colder longer, so it wasn't a total loss.
Re: (Score:2)
We call them 'beer condoms'. :-P
Re: (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I've done extensive testing on this, and have concluded that what is actually happening is a volumetric transference from the vessel to the imbiber, at a rate proportional to the time the glass spends separated from the flat surface.
You can predict the transfer rate by both the frequency with which the glass goes through it's lifting cycle and the tilt angle of the container at any given
This research needs independent verification (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Cheers and bottoms up!
Um, no shit? (Score:3)
Isn't this basic high school science class stuff? Yes, condensation raises temperatures, just like evaporation lowers temperatures.
That's the whole reason human beings can sweat to cool off.
A lot of people presumably know about that. Are those people surprised that this works "in both directions"?
Only with American beer (Score:5, Funny)
This happens only with American beer, in the rest of the world the temperature raises only by five degrees
No shit, Einstein (Score:2)
Phase transition from gas to liquid is exothermic?
This is a fun classroom experiment, but it isn't science news.
Re: (Score:2)
The level of basic science/math illiteracy never ceases to amaze me.
What the heck does happen in the school system?
this is news? (Score:2)
Vapor going to liquid needs to ditch heat ... where do you think it is going? It isn't just the temperature differential either it is that there is a state change so you's got to pay the cost of the heat of vaporization too.
Buy better beer (Score:2)
The only reason people need to chill there beer so much is because it tastes so bad. Cold things simply taste less. If you have a drink that tasted good, you wouldn't need to drink it at near freezing temperatures.
...another reason to use a coozy.... (Score:3)
My co-workers mock me for my beer rituals... If we go to a patio for a few cold ones at lunch, I won't let the server take the menu away... I need the menu to shade my beer so the UV doesn't make the hops all skunky. Nobody believes that I can even taste the difference but it's obvious to me... Skunky beer sucks... So if you're on a patio, keep it shaded or in a coozy...
Re: (Score:2)
Not one shit was given...
Feel free to repeat the experiment with chilled tap water, I guess, if that'll help
Re:As I'm a teetotaler... (Score:5, Funny)
And yet you felt compelled to post. What's that about?
Stuff that doesn't interest me happens all the time. If I had the same compunction to comment on all of them I'd never get anything done.
Or is this another case of Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own a Television [theonion.com]?
Re: (Score:2)
Really? Maybe you don't drink wine, but this also affects the Mountain Dew of basement dwellers. ;)
I kid, I kid.
Re:As a Belgian (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason for this is very simple.
The brewer does not pay for the cooling, the bar or customer does. This means they can continue to use cracked rice, cracked corn, the lowest grade of barley known to man and hops extract. When you are making a billion gallons of brew you can make a lot of profit by using animal feed instead of proper ingredients.
Then you simply advertise the hell out of serving this garbage as cold as possible, which covers up the taste.
Re: (Score:2)
Why not spending a couple of extra cents on quality ingredients to make a quality beer instead of blowing money on cooling?
Because that wouldn't be the American Megacorporate Way. Why spend more on product quality, when you could spend half as much on ubiquitous ad campaigns to redefine the country's understanding of what "beer" even is?
Re:As a Belgian (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not spending a couple of extra cents on quality ingredients to make a quality beer instead of blowing money on cooling?
Because that wouldn't be the American Megacorporate Way. Why spend more on product quality, when you could spend half as much on ubiquitous ad campaigns to redefine the country's understanding of what "beer" even is?
WRT beer, what is this American Megacorporation to which you refer? AB InBev? Grupo Modello? SABMiller? Molson Coors? (I guess that last one's half-American, but not really "mega" compared to the first two.)
Re: (Score:2)
Becoming part of a globalized mega holding company, which doesn't actually give a shit for America, Americans, or the products you're making, but loves raking in money, is a hallowed part of the American Megacorporate Tradition.
Re: (Score:2)
Our American Megacorporate Overlords have been pushing shitty beer (and every other kind of quasi-food product) on Americans since well before consolidating into global holdings conglomerates.
Re: (Score:2)
It makes it look like in the advertisements, because advertising uses condensation to make it look cold.
It's funny how the brain works.