Gut Bacteria Cocktail May End Need for Fecal Transplants 183
sciencehabit writes "A tonic of gut microbes may be the secret recipe for treating a common hospital scourge. Researchers have pinpointed the exact mix of microbes required to cure mice of chronic infection by Clostridium difficile. The hard-to-treat bacterium infects alomst 336,000 in the US each year and causes bloating, pain, & diarrhea. A similar bacterial cocktail may be able to replace the current controversial treatment involving the intake of a healthy person's fecal matter to restore the right balance of microbes in the gut."
Um, ew (Score:2, Funny)
I'd never heard of this before, and I still wish I hadn't.
Re:Um, ew (Score:5, Funny)
This treatment is nothing but a load of crap.
Re:Um, ew (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, the whole idea kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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A new way to make a toast to someone's health: "Eat Shit!"
Re:Um, ew (Score:4, Funny)
"Eat shit and live!"
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It's a joke. But seriously, I work in the healthcare field and have a number of gastroenterologist friends who have told me about this therapy before. One method of administration is via a nasogastric tube and, sorry here folks, but notwithstanding the physical integrity of the tubing, just knowing that pureed shit was being pumped through my nose and down my throat would cause me some significant levels of distress (or maybe not, as it appears the C. Diff. is a really crappy illness to have, pun intended
Slashdot: News for Turds (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Slashdot: News for Turds (Score:5, Funny)
Stuff that Splatters
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Friday night entertainment
For ze Germans.
Not like any yogurt (Score:4, Informative)
This kind of treatment has been tested before and is an exciting possibility, but there have been failures in the past. Also, this is nothing like the yogurt cultures you know.
Insightful numbers (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Insightful numbers (Score:4, Interesting)
Just had that happen to me. Multiple infections meant that in the last six months I have had every type of antibiotic available. Then, surgery to remove the source of the infections. Since I'd been exposed to every major branch of antibiotics, the bacteria in my gut was now resistant to all but the 'drugs of last resort'. So of course, some of that bacteria got out and started trashing my insides and the surgical incision.
Scariest thing in the world to hear that the normal bacteria in your gut is now resistant to everything but Vanc, Streptomycin, and Linezolid; and that it's trying to chew it's way through your kidneys. Especially since those drugs of last resort almost all cause kidney damage.
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Might have to move to Georgia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy [wikipedia.org]
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Since I'd been exposed to every major branch of antibiotics, the bacteria in my gut was now resistant to all but the 'drugs of last resort'
Note that antibiotic resistance would not be a problem if your immune system had been able to cope with your pathogen species.
The disaster here may be caused by bacterial selection through antibiotics. In normal situations, gut bacteria fight each others near equilibrium, and your immune system just have to maintain the equilibrium by reducing species that are growing too much. Antibiotics wipe out entire chunks of gut bacteria diversity, creating situations where some resistant species do not have bacteria
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The original pathogen was not a gut bacteria. It was something a bit stranger than that, which I won't go into here. Regardless, the available treatment was 2 weeks of antibiotics which, because of flaws unknown at the time, only killed the apparent infection and not the 'cyst' it was hiding in. So the infection returned multiple times before surgery could be scheduled. And when JAMA articles suggest that the survival rate of treating this pathogen is only 25%, you take the antibiotics.
But treatment with dr
Studying symbiotic microbes (Score:4, Interesting)
The amazing thing about the bacterial ecosystem is how even different parts of your skin can be colonized by completely different types of bacteria, even just a few inches apart. There are symbiotic relationships just among the bacteria, and other bacteria which are several degrees removed from directly relying on our host bodies. It's a fascinating area of study, but one which is difficult, because it's impossible to isolate and study the bugs individually.
Slashdot: News for turds, shit that matters. (Score:2)
Fecal Transplant? (Score:2, Troll)
humbled by poo (Score:4, Interesting)
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Rather than further mod you to oblivion, I chose to leave both your initial reply, where you admit to willfully remaining ignorant on something you dismiss, and the followup where you actually admit to learn something.
I think I like it better this way.
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Regarding the dismissal of information, the comment was jocular; it was the wording, e.g. "Fecal
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Big news to our family (Score:2)
We had a son that was born at 23 weeks/0 days. Yea, that is 4 months premature. At this time (he turns 4 in December) the biggest problem he has is chronic issues with his gut. The odds are that he never got the correct mix of bacteria in his gut early on, because he was in a sterile environment when his body should have been getting mama milk and the crap that goes along with it. ;)
This is good.
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"Pre-biotics" are, for example, raw garlic, raw onions, raw leeks, certain bitter raw leaves and so on. Kimchi seems to fit both profiles, to me, especially if made with green onions. When both are included in a regimented diet, a lot can happen. Another factor in
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Why don't You give him an enema with tiny bit of Your feces dissolved in (salt) water, about 0.1 - 0.2 liter. If You are healthy and have a good stomach health of course.
Normally the babies gets these bacterias at birth from the mothers (unvoluntary) released feces. Unfortunately the idea of totally antiseptic birth have caused many of these problems.
If they do this to a politician... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If they do this to a politician... (Score:4, Insightful)
You think politicians say stupid things because they're stupid? No, they say stupid things because that's what the voters want to hear. So who's stupid in this scenario?
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Do they call it a brain transplant?
Only if they use bullshit.
Is there some reason (Score:2)
No Shit! (Score:2, Informative)
Come on, somebody had to say it!
Thank God (Score:2)
Like I told my donor, "Get lost, buddy, I don't need your shit any more".
Try the veal.
fecal (Score:2)
why bother with feces when you've got a good excuse to shoot an acidic coffee enema up your rectum? i hear its a better high than meth...
Feces of the Lambs (Score:3)
A researcher once tried to test me. I ate his shit with some fava beans and a nice gut bacteria cocktail... (slurpslurp)
swap.avi (Score:2)
Not new, it's the competitive exclusion principle (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_exclusion_principle [wikipedia.org]
And it has been used medically in treatments for ages, I actually fail to see what is really that new with this(especially since the mouse microbiota is so fundamentally diffent from the human's), albeit it interesting.
In this context it means that introducing a new bacteria to the gut microbiota that consumes a certain resource, starves other bacteria that lives on that resource.
It is very useful, as literally hundreds of studies show.
- begin rant
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Reading is one thing, comprehending is another. For the first time, we know what can get rid of this very bad bug in a mammal, without using the previously accepted (and not at all controversial) fecal transplant when other antibiotics fail.
Mouse or not, this gives a target to look for in humans. And assuming all of the ingredients are human-compatible, this should result in a good step towards curing a very painful and debilitating condition.
The pr
Oh no (Score:2)
You want to do what Doc? (Score:2)
Kefir (Score:3)
All what's needed is the patient making their own, home-made goat kefir (if they're not terribly allergic to dairy -- although even dairy allergies are a para-symptom of wheat allergy in reality). Kefir's 43 different bacteria and yeasts can kill CDiff, and it's being shown to do so in research (Minnesota university professor/doctor tried it recently too). But the kefir must be home-made (bottled ones don't include the full spectrum of bacteria/yeasts because of bottling regulations regarding alcohol the yeasts create), it must be from goat, sheep or buffalo milk (for less casein irritation, as the A2 casein is more compatible with humans), and it must be fermented for 24 hours (to minimize the amount of lactose ingested). Two-three cups a day of kefir (with a few berries in it, maybe with some pine and walnut nuts, also maybe with some raw, unfiltered and local honey too), and CDiff should be back in check within 3-4 days. No need for antibiotics, for pill probiotics, or doctors for that matter.
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If I didn't travel as much I'd be trying home made Kefir, but some days I just just want to take a pill.
So your plan A:
1) Acquire goat, sheep or buffalo milk.
1.5) Acquire Kefir starter culture (I think you left this step out based on what I've read: "For more information on the starter culture," [kefir.net]).
2) Ferment for 24 hours
3) Drink 3x day
4) CDiff gone.
Plan B:
1) Pop some probiotics pills
1.5) skip
2) skip
3) skip
4) CDiff gone probiotics-c-diff [livestrong.com]
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:5, Informative)
Kefir is even better, but hard to monetize so it's less common. Get some, keep a large jar and replenish with milk as required.
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Yogurt is basically the same process, hell they have successfully monetized bottled water.
Do not underestimate the laziness of the average American.
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Do not underestimate the laziness of the average American.
A common and largely incorrect sentiment suggesting you just have never bothered to think it through all the way. The brilliant realization that drove bottled water out of the original, much smaller Evian market (remember all those hipster T-shirts from the 90's that spelled it backward?) and into the world of Dasani (which is merely the filtered water used by your local Coca-Cola bottler) was that water is widely available for free, but cold water that you can carry with you was not. You could, of course, choose to carry your own water bottle, which many people do when going to the gym or other predictable activity, but on a long journey this is not a good solution. You might choose to carry a cooler and fill it with ice and a few bottles of cold water that you would refill at leisure, if traveling by car, but even then that's a lot of work (and if you have to replenish ice, a bag is likely to cost more than several liters of water, especially if you get the cheaper brands). If traveling by air, bottles of chilled water are nearly the only method to achieve this goal (due to the restrictions on liquids). And if you're flying somewhere, why worry about the tiny additional cost of a couple of bottles of water compared to the hundreds of dollars you spent to get there?
The same logic explains why a two liter bottle of soda at room temperature sells for the same price as a chilled half-liter bottle of the same stuff in a gas station. You are mostly paying for portability (i.e., it fits in your car cupholder) and chilling, not the liquid inside. You can get a better deal by buying fountain drinks, but they go flat faster and have a much higher risk of spill than a bottle with a screw-on cap.
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Yeah, I buy bottled water when I am going to be on-site at a clients. For the rest of the week I refill the bottle from the tap, but they still got one sale from me.
Also, I am not sure why people single out bottled water. Ever looked at the ingredients of bottled soda? It's just water that has been made bad for you.
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Soda is a little like juice - it's water that has some flavor, except it has a long shelf life and an easily identifiable freshness indicator - if the bottle was opened too long ago, it's pretty much guaranteed to be flat. Any still-carbonated cola is likely to be safe to drink from a microbial standpoint.
Plain carbonated water is less bad for you, and provides the same freshness indicator, but many people do not like the taste that carbonation imparts on its own.
Oddly, carbonated juice never really caugh
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The criticism against bottled water is that these companies are literally selling something that is all around us in nature, and falls from the sky and (once you've dug a well at least) comes out of the ground for free. Soda, on the other hand, is a man-made product, so selling it seems more justifiable to people. Paying for bottled water would be like payin
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"I have no idea what I'm taking about, and I was in too much of a rush to First-Post so I did not bother to read the article. But I made an anti-American remark, and I was snotty, therefore, I'm an instant Slashdot expert! Modded up to 'insightful'".
What sort of fools modded this up?
By the way, if you had bothered to read the article, the research is at the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute. In the UK. That's not in the US, that's across the Atlantic Ocean, way on the other side.
I think you underestimat
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Yeah, the laziness of the average American is why we work longer hours than most developed nations and have higher productivity. Try again.
Citation [cbsnews.com]. You can find dozens more if you were not too lazy to look ;)
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Did I say that? No. See the other response. As long as we have a huge entitlement system we won't be doing OK.
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That article compares workers to workers, not the countries' populations as a whole. How is the higher productivity of each American worker offset by the huge number of Americans who are, for example, either unemployed (7.8% [bls.gov]), on welfare or some other entitlement program (21.8% [heritage.org] for federal programs alone), or engage in non-wealth-producing labor such as working for the government (4% [answers.com])? (Obviously some of those categories overlap so you can't just add them together.)
We may have among the most productive work
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If you're so productive you'd be able to work fewer hours, rather than having to work more. And those stats only work if you assume that GDP is entirely a function of the productivity of the worker. If that were the case there'd be a stronger link between GDP per worker and income.
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If one is productive, one can choose to work fewer hours and do the same amount of work, or work more hours and accomplish more. They are not mutually exclusive, and only a lazy person would choose to work fewer hours.
Both are true.
And the link between GDP and income is non-existent. No one has to to be paid more because they
Re: Not even remotely close. (Score:2)
Yogurt and Kefir are similar in the same way chimpanzees and people are similar. "Bacterial dairy product".
Similar process, different result because the bacteria are different.
One post mentioned Kefir has 23 different bacteria strains, which I assume is a very specific recipe, but did not give me enough to ensure I found the right citation.
Yogurt is good for normal antibiotic-related diarrhea. I would assume Kefir would help where Yogurt would not, but I am not going to make my own. Feel free to start yo
Re: Warning: paranoia may cloud sensibilities (Score:5, Insightful)
Kefir is even better, but hard to monetize so it's less common. Get some, keep a large jar and replenish with milk as required.
It didn't cross your mind that if you were actually correct, the researcher - who is presumably at least reasonably competent inside the field in which they are working - would have been culturing the microbes from yoghurt or kefir?
Right now, the evidence provided means the 'yoghurt or kefir are just as good' claim carries as much weight as the claim that homeopathic vaccines are as effective as real vaccines.
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This research doesn't show the only way or all the ways your gut flora can be restored after (treating) a C dif infection. It describes one way and proves its claim without ruling any other treatments out. Put another way, this research does not disprove the effectiveness of any rememdies not explicitly covered and should not be assumed to evaluate their individual effectivenesses.
The key idea is intentionally augmenting the gut's flora with probiotics so that restoration of beneficial native flora can occu
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This research doesn't show the only way or all the ways your gut flora can be restored after (treating) a C dif infection.
Yes indeed.
Put another way, this research does not disprove the effectiveness of any rememdies not explicitly covered and should not be assumed to evaluate their individual effectivenesses.
Also true.
The key idea is intentionally augmenting the gut's flora with probiotics so that restoration of beneficial native flora can occur more rapidly. The paper points to specific strains which are required to attain the effectiveness of a fecal transfer. L bacillus and acidophilus may not cure your C dif infection or instantly restore homeostasis, but they'll significantly help restore your ability to properly receive nutrients from digested food. While more palatable than eating poo, they're simply not as efffective because they don't represent all the necessary flora. They are, however, still effective and recommended as treatments.
And I still am not disagreeing with you here - and indeed neither does my original post.
While theirs was not an accurate or well supported claim, please recognize that the comment you responded to contained more truth than your dissmissively out of hand rebuttal. Also, don't try to appeal to authority when there is evidence against your assertion that probiotics are equivalent to homeopathy.
And here, you're incorrect. They actually contain a claim, with no supporting evidence.
Yoghurt and Kefir may indeed be good for gut flora, but claiming that Yoghurt and Kefir do the same thing as a fecal transplant, but are n
Re: Warning: paranoia may cloud sensibilities (Score:4, Informative)
Yoghurt efficiency is not homeopathic lie.
From the "Québec Nationnalle health agency", an official document (PDF, French) [inspq.qc.ca], page 36.
.
(Google traduction)"On primary prevention, in a recent double-blind presented American College of Gastroenterology where 44 patients who had a yogurt enriched lactobacilli were compared with 45 patients with placebo, the incidence of diarrhea was significantly lower in the group with probiotic (p = 0.01). However, in view specifically of diarrhea associated with Clostridium difficile, the difference between the groups was less significant (1 patient in the probiotic group vs 7 in the placebo group had an episode of CDAD, p = 0.058)."
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Yoghurt efficiency is not homeopathic lie.
I agree, and I didn't say that yoghurt efficiency (did you mean efficacy?) is a homeopathic lie. I said that the evidence provided (meaning by the previous posters) meant that their claim carried as much weight as the claim that homeopathic vaccines are as effective as real vaccines.
Just to make sure I'm very clear (because others also took a different meaning from my post than I intended):
The evidence provided for claim X means that the claim carries as much weight as claim Y.
That doesn't mean X is an exam
Re: Warning: paranoia may cloud sensibilities (Score:5, Insightful)
Eating yogurt is not a homeopathic remedy. Look up what homeopathic means.
Eating yogurt is a simple treatment, and as the grandparent's quote indicates it is significantly effective at reducing the incidence of diarrhea in cases of gut flora loss (due to antibiotics usually). However, it is significantly less effective when the problem is specifically c.difficile overgrowth.
So if you're taking antibiotics, get a probiotic yogurt, it is likely to help. If you do end up with c. diff, you may need another type of treatment.
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Couple of notes here. This is purely anecdotal so don't take it as the Gospel. I was on IV antibiotics not too long ago followed by oral antibiotic for a condition called Diverticulitis.
Anyways, while I was on the antibiotic, I wasn't to have milk or milk based foods (yogurt, ice cream so on). I was told it would reduce the effectiveness of the antibiotic and the treatment wouldn't work. After I finished the oral antibiotics, I was instructed to drink at least 2 ounces of kefir at least twice a day by my do
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So you just spent three sentences claiming yogurt will cure c.difficile, arguing the parents point is incorrect.
Then your final sentence claims yogurt will NOT cure c.difficile, echoing exactly the parents point.
Your first three sentences also link in with the parent being wrong as you claim homeopathic remedies are somehow scientific and do work, since that was that posts entire point...
Also no one at all in this thread claimed yogurt was homeopathic, that was just something you made up (likely on purpose)
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Reading comprehension check.
The entire post says that yogurt can help prevent some problems, but not C. difficile. Read it again and see if you disagree.
AC did not claim it is homeopathic. The exact quote is
That comes from a misunderstanding of #41786373 poorly constructed quote "Yoghurt efficiency is not homeopathic lie."
In context of parent quote #41785977
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There are some useful bacteria in yoghurt and the like, but they do not contain the entire range of bacteria in a healthy gut (thankfully, or that yoghurt would be nasty).
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What's this about kefir.
I buy it in the health food section about once a week. Please explain because I would love to have it more often but at $5 a quart, I think a quart a week is enough. on the other hand, I go through about a gallon and a half of milk a week.
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Kefir is easy to make, once you have a starting culture. Just drop a glob of the starting "seed" into milk. Leave out overnight away from heat or sunlight. The Kefir will eat all the milk and give you a big jar of Kefir. Run the Kefir through a strainer. Drink the liquid. Put the solids back into the jar with new milk. Repeat daily.
I'm not sure if the store bought Kefir still has live culture in it. I got mine from a friend who got it from a friend etc. Been drinking it for years from that one starter "seed
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Thanks, I just discovered kefir not too long ago and did not know it was easy to make safely.
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Eating yogurt is the same as "intake of a healthy person's fecal matter?"
Source, please.
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Eating yogurt is the same as "intake of a healthy person's fecal matter?"
Source, please.
It's not the same. It only contains one of the species of common intestinal bacteria that keep your gut happy. But sometimes just reestablishing a colony of that one is enough to help a lot with intestinal problems.
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:5, Funny)
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Sugar, sugar, and more sugar. Try some dannon. You can barely taste the yogurt.
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Eating yogurt is the same as "intake of a healthy person's fecal matter?"
I've always felt that way -- minus the "healthy" part.
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:4, Informative)
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Is this a troll? Cause you can tell that yogurt has nothing to do with the bacteria in your digestive tract because you don't shit yogurt, eh?
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Yogurt does help create a healthy gut flora, but yogurt contains only a few, at most, of the bacteria that the intestine needs to operate normally. Your gut naturally contains E. Coli, and Enterococcus, neither of which you want to get from the grocery store.
And, if it weren't for your large intestine filtering out most of the water, then when you drank milk you would excrete something similar to yogurt.
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:4, Funny)
"Your gut naturally contains E. Coli, and Enterococcus, neither of which you want to get from the grocery store."
Grocery store?
I know a local restaurant where you can get a fecal matter cocktail for years now.
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Microbiologists disagree. The technical [sciencemag.org]:
Or the layman [npr.org] versions:
Re:Yogurt does the same thing (Score:5, Interesting)
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Is this a troll? Cause you can tell that yogurt has nothing to do with the bacteria in your digestive tract because you don't shit yogurt, eh?
Well:
some times you do. Makes sense, if you want to get bacteria in your gut, why go the long way arround?
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*Correction, 5:20 p.m.: Some physicians have been successfully treating patients for C. difficile with ground-up, filtered fecal material inserted into the stomach with a tube, not via an enema.
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Some physicians have been successfully treating patients for C. difficile with ground-up, filtered fecal material inserted into the stomach with a tube, not via an enema
It is surprising they did not insert the bacteria through the other side: stomach is a harsh place for bacteria
Re:Why is it controversial? (Score:5, Informative)
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The only issue is that fecal transplants aren't yet covered by insurance.
This, and the fact that it may just be a temporary cure if the patient has a weak immunity: the same cause may make the same effects.
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The only issue is that fecal transplants aren't yet covered by insurance.
This, and the fact that it may just be a temporary cure if the patient has a weak immunity: the same cause may make the same effects.
This may be true, but does your gut really get affected that much by your immune system? I know it does it various auto-immune diseases but that is the opposite to what you are describing. From what i've read the balance of bacteria in your gut is supposed to regulate itself but the bad bacteria can move in after the patient has had a heavy does of antibiotics to treat other infections.
Unless you were implying that the weak immunity requires heavy doses of antibiotics to treat recurring infections? I guess
Re:Why is it controversial? (Score:5, Informative)
but does your gut really get affected that much by your immune system?
Yes, a lot. The gut is the major organ involved with immunity. We are constantly sampling gut bacterial antigens, producing antibodies against the species that grow too much
Thyroïd problems impact gut immunity, and a low thyroid function is strongly associated with Candida Albicans proliferation, for instance
.
Re:Why is it controversial? (Score:4, Informative)
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Wow, wait a second here! If you take probiotics such as yogurt while there are still antibiotics in your body, some of the probiotic bacteria are likely to evolve full or partial resistance and that increases the chance of passing that resistance to pathogenic bacteria entering the gut later through horizontal gene transfer. It seems intellectually lazy that you are discounting this serious risk!
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I'm sure you realize that the pathogenic bacteria in question is C.Diff and a different species (and genus) from the beneficial bacteria supplied by the probiotic supplement/diet and they will never interact genetically.
It is the imbalance not the presence of these organisms that causes problems. E. Colli is another common troublemaker that lives in all of our bowels but is more easily dealt with than C. Diff. While some resistance to antibiotics *might* manifest, that resistance will be lost as the indiv
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People who have been in agony for weeks get so much better in a few hours they can be discharged from the hospital. The only issue is that fecal transplants aren't yet covered by insurance.
That should be a pretty easy decision to make though... hospital stays aren't cheap (and I assume are covered by insurance in the US?) and a decent infection of clostridium difficile can kill you and make you very expensive to take care of while you die.
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I gotta wonder, why not take it as a pill with an enteric coating for $0.50 rather than $1000?
Only medicine could bill $1000 for putting a bit of shit into someone's intestine.
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Enteric coatings are designed to release in the small intestine, whereas C diff lives in the colon. According to some conversations which a doctor I work with (who primarily focuses on C diff), it is difficult to get a pill that lasts until the colon, dissolves there, and has enough content of whatever treatment method you're trying.
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When it's done by feeding tube, it is released into the small intestine, not the colon (presumably it migrates down and colonizes). Otherwise an enema can be used and it migrates up. Surely, unless the feeding tube has already been placed for other reasons, there's no good reason to make the patient pay through the nose (pun intended).
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isn't the best guess for why we the appendix is that it contains a small pocket of bacteria to restart the system in case you have something that flushes the system?
I've heard that theory. Doesn't help those of us who have had our appendix removed though.
Re:Eat Sh*t Sucka (Score:5, Insightful)
If I'm unfortunate to get this illness, please don't tell me the cure.
If you are unfortunate enough to get this illness you will welcome the cure with open bowels.
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He would have to haveen very desperate to get guinea worms on purpose!
Those things are life threatening!
I'd have settled for some other parasite!
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OK, the Republicans warned me about Obamacare, but seriously?