Beware the Nocebo Effect 239
An article at the NY Times looks at research into the "nocebo" effect. Named after the placebo effect, it's the term for when patient expectations do harm, rather than good. "When a patient anticipates a pill’s possible side effects, he can suffer them even if the pill is fake." The article describes several instances of patients getting the placebo in a drug trial, but reporting the expected side effects of the drug, rather than the benefits or nothing at all. Quoting:
"Consider the number of people in medical trials who, though receiving placebos, stop participating because of side effects. We found that 11 percent of people in fibromyalgia drug trials who were taking fake medication dropped out of the studies because of side effects like dizziness or nausea. Other researchers reported that the discontinuation rates because of side effects in placebo groups in migraine or tension drug trials were as much as 5 percent. Discontinuation rates in trials for statins ranged from 4 percent to 26 percent. ... In one remarkable case, a participant in an antidepressant drug trial was given placebo tablets — and then swallowed 26 of them in a suicide attempt. Even though the tablets were harmless, the participant's blood pressure dropped perilously low."
The Mind is amazing (Score:5, Insightful)
No humans are weird (Score:3, Interesting)
They are so gullible that they will believe anything, even that they have upset stomachs (even when they don't). Or that Lush Rimbaugh is right. Or that celltowers are the cause of their headaches even if the tower is turned-off & the headaches are caused by other issues (like staying-up til midnight).
Re:No humans are weird (Score:5, Insightful)
or that Chiropractic treatment works. Or homeopathy, crystals, accupunture, tiger penis soup, Sea Horse balls, etc ...
And I once argued with a psychologist about their efficacy (for therapy). For the patient to get better, they have to want to change; then doesn't that make it a placebo?
"No!" blah balh blah blah.
"I see. But when I take a antibiotic, it either works or it doesn't. My belief or desire for it to work is irrelevant."
And then there are the very compelling arguments with data of the efficacy of anti-depressants.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead acuse me of being a Scientologist. But even kooks can be right sometimes for the wrong reasons. for example, Mormons. They say you can't drink alcohol.
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Re:No humans are weird (Score:5, Insightful)
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"I see. But when I take a antibiotic, it either works or it doesn't. My belief or desire for it to work is irrelevant."
Not entirely, as mentioned in the article, 26 placebo pills dangerously lowered the subject's blood pressure. Placebo effect can also boost or lower natural immunity, possibly to equal or greater effect than antibiotics, especially with MRSA and other drug tolerant strains.
Except in the TFS... (Score:2)
...where they cite a placebo lowering the subject's blood pressure. And blood pressure is OBjective, not SUBjective.
And yes, in this case, you are scientifically inaccurate.
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There was a recent study that showed accupucture worked. No, not Chinese accupucture; it didn't actually matter where the needled were stuck, but there was a difference if they were stuck at all. Maybe it was a placebo effect but no matter, it had an effect.
Personally my chiropractic experience was a success in that she showed me how my posture was the source of my periodic, debilitating headaches. (Muscles seized in the back of my neck.) Drastic changes to my posture (I sit strictly upright at all time
You are arguing against a metaphor. (Score:3)
For the patient to get better, they have to want to change;
"Patient has to want to change" is a shorthand/metaphor for "a patient has to accept the existence of a problem, and in order to find the cause of it so it can be treated, he or she must openly discuss the problem and the underlying issues with a trained professional".
But when I take a antibiotic, it either works or it doesn't.
Weeeell...
Elevated stress can cause an increase in production of stomach acid, which can inhibit certain antibiotics, when taken orally.
More like "thinking positive" than "believing", and weakening the effect than "not working" but you get the
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Psychology, there is no way to explain why something did not work. Theories exist as to why it did work, when it is successful, but we can't investigate, measure, and fix the problem. We also cannot state as fact that a condition is resistant to all known treatments, as we can with other medical fields.
If it doesn't work on its own, and we can't explain what it does, and all it is supposed to be doing is restoring the balance of chemicals in the brain... shouldn't someone have figured this out by now?
Not trying to be a smartass here but, shouldn't a hardware+software paradigm of the human brain and psyche be intuitively clear to someone on slashdot?
Psychotherapy is debugging of a software problem which may or may not be caused by a hardware problem.
Chemicals only fix or turn on or off faulty hardware.
And both are at best empirical because we know almost nothing about the hardware, and all of the software is custom made.
Not seeing a difference here. Either an antibiotic works, or it doesn't, because it's ineffective against that class of bacteria, or it's a mutant bacteria, or increased stomach acid, or you took it with something that the label says not to take it with.
The dose makes the poison.
A weakened antibiotic may not work sufficiently well to st
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or that Chiropractic treatment works. Or homeopathy, crystals, accupunture, tiger penis soup, Sea Horse balls, etc ...
Yes... and the people who believe in these "treatments" often believe that modern medicine, big pharma, all medical doctors, etc are "evil" - and these preconceptions may result in them experiencing (real) adverse side effects.
And I once argued with a psychologist about their efficacy (for therapy). For the patient to get better, they have to want to change; then doesn't that make it a placebo?
The difference with evidence-based therapies such as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is that the combination of (a) the patient wanting to change, and (b) being treated with CBT produces better outcomes than simply wanting to change alone. Hence, the treatment is classified as being eff
Re:upset stomachs (Score:2)
Nah, sometimes it's the opposite problem, the body can trick itself into symptoms. As for the Upset Stomach, the throwup that you had to flush down the toilet wasn't fake.
However it wasn't due to the drug, it was due to the subject/patient over stressing about tertiary factors.
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:5, Informative)
There are many examples outside the laboratory to look at in order to see the power of the mind over the body. Mothers lifting overturned vehicles to free a trapped child, a prisoner in the Nazi concentration camps whose name escapes me at the moment describing seeing men literally give up, they ate their last potato, lay down, and died for no particular medical reason. On a more upbeat note, someone like Wim Hof, who can control the temperature of his body to an incredible degree, is a living example of what we can do. Science has really only begun to probe the full extent of the control that can be achieved.
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Mothers lifting overturned vehicles to free a trapped child
Hysterical strength is not "mind over the body".
During times of extreme stress, our body essentially disengages the safeties and allows us to use our muscles to their full capacity.
One can achieve the exact same levels of strength by electrocuting oneself, which forces all the muscle fibers to twitch at once.
I don't recommend you try it though, since you'll end up (A) electrocuted and (B) with torn muscles.
If it was truly a mind over body talent, there would be people (similar to Wim Hof) who could access i
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Wim uses Buddhist meditation and yoga techniques, specifically Tummo (inner fire) yoga, to survive quite happily in conditions that would quite quickly kill most other people, so who knows what other doors we can open? The book isn't written yet by a long shot, if there's a mental switch in there I bet we can flip it! Buddhists, the hackers of the mind.
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:4, Insightful)
I can control my heartbeat at will, to some degree. If my heart gets a massive blockage in it, I won't be able to think it out.
Mothers don't lift overturned vehicles, they lever them on pivots - an overturned vehicle is relatively easy to move around comparative to to weight it is, because it's sitting on it's top.
Perpetuating the myth that mothers can do extraordinary feats in times of crisis slams guilt on those mothers that did not manage to save their child when then did all they could.
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Wim Hof [wikipedia.org] holds eighteen world records last time I counted, he appears to be perfectly capable of reproducing the events. ;) I don't think we really want to reproduce concentration camps, but very serious survival literature is replete with similar stories.
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I had a glance at the wikipage you link to, and from what I see his feats are... "staying warm".
No, that seems to be it. Sure, in some contexts he does it while climbing mountains and running marathons, but really all he does is maintain bodyheat better than most.
Living in Sweden where I on a yearly basis face temperatures from around -25C in the coldest heart of winter to around in the heat of summer 35C, I know quite a lot about dealing with body temperature... Especially since it so happens that I, presu
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:4, Informative)
I find it interesting that you translated what I said to "compare him to old anecdotal fairy tales of mystic powers". This I would view as a symptom of the bizarre extremist rational atheism (in fact irrational religion) which seems popular in certain circles, which views any expression of amazement at unusual events or people as being a direct challenge to all of science, when in fact its only a challenge to your dogmatism. That's dogmatism mind, not realism.
And this after attempting to denigrate his achievements as just "staying warm", with a tip of the hat towards the old genetics canard. The man climbed 7/8ths of the way up Mount Everest in his shorts, sits up to his neck in ice for hours at a stretch (they had to cut him out with axes in one demonstration, the thing had frozen solid), and hey, he just ran a marathon in one of the hottest deserts on earth, 40 degrees celcius, at age 52, without water [dailymail.co.uk]. So much for just "staying warm".
If you know about cold, as you claim, you know very well just how lethal exposure can be and how quickly it can kill - survival training basics, the rule of threes, three hours of exposure, three days without water, three weeks without food, thats how long it will take to become incapacitated. And thats in relatively livable conditions, not north of the Arctic circle, making his achievements all the more remarkable.
My advice, grow an imagination and a sense of wonder, you're as much of a threat to science as any right wing religious nutjob at the moment.
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"No surprise here, the mind controls the body. Why wouldn't the placebo effect work both ways?"
This actually goes a long way to prove that psychological abuse is actually physically damaging to the body, that bullshit about 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' or 'sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me' is bullshit.
After all if you are a social outcast you are deprived of things your body needs (like say companionship or sex) compared to other people.
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:5, Insightful)
Drinks with HFCS give me migraines, for example. A sugar placebo would certainly have side effects not even considering the mind over matter aspect of the situation.
I think you might be begging the question here - precluding a nocebo effect based on something that may very well be a nocebo effect.
Or have you been through double blind tests?
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:5, Interesting)
Holy crap, a correct use of the phrase "begging the question"! You win one Internet.
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Drinks with HFCS give me migraines, for example. A sugar placebo would certainly have side effects not even considering the mind over matter aspect of the situation.
I think you might be begging the question here - precluding a nocebo effect based on something that may very well be a nocebo effect.
Or have you been through double blind tests?
For reference: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question [yourlogicalfallacyis.com]
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:4, Interesting)
That could cause an anti-migraine pill to make the situation worse, or cause reduced kidney/liver function as my body works overtime to purge the sugar from my blood
Would 100mg of sugar really cause problems for your liver?
100 mg? (Score:3)
Anecdotal, and first/second person from me is third person to you, but, ...
Not sure if your 1/10 gram matches the actual amount in a placebo, but the amount of sugar in a non-placebo pill can indeed have bad effects on someone with sugar reactions, including liver and kidney function.
We know that it can have a significant effect on a diabetic person, as well, so there's no need to fuss about the amount.
When someone in the family is sick and claims sugar intolerance, does it do any good to argue whether suga
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Pandering to people's preconceptions isn't good either - see the whole sugar/hyperactivity link in children (hint - it doesn't exist). Lowering sugar in most people's diets is a very good thing, but not because of allergies or intolerances.
Re:100 mg? (Score:5, Informative)
I have type I diabetes and I can assure you that 100mg of sugar will have absolutely no effect.
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Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:4, Informative)
fructose is metabolized by the liver in a biochemical process nearly identical to alcohol (search YouTube for Dr. Robert Lustig's lecture "Sugar: The Bitter Truth"; he walks through the biochemistry in detail)
I haven't seen that YouTube video so it's quite possible that what Dr Lustig means is different to what you're saying... but the metabolic pathways for ethanol and fructose metabolism are very, very different.
The major pathways of ethanol metabolism are:
(a) Ethanol --ADH--> acetaldehyde --ALDH--> acetic acid.
(b) Microsomal ethanol oxidizing system (induced in chronic alcoholics).
(c) Catalase enzyme (minor).
The major pathways of fructose metabolism are:
(a) Fructokinase enzyme in the liver, i.e. fructolysis (similar to glycolysis for glucose which occurs in most cells).
(b) Hexokinase enzyme in most cells, but is usually inhibited by glucose.
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Seriously? +4 insightful for "What if scientists haven't considered that inactive ingredients might not be inactive?" At least four people thought that was a valid, interesting point?
Dude, how much fucking sugar do you think is in a sugar pill?
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, the ingredients of placebos can definitely induce side effects, and this is not a new problem. See http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/18/us-whats-placebo-idUSTRE69H51L20101018 [reuters.com]
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:5, Informative)
Some placebos are sugar pills...
The good news (for you): almost no placebos in large medical trials are "sugar-filled" pills**.
The bad news (for everyone): ingredients of placebos are mostly unregulated, usually not published, and are often formulated to attempt to duplicate the known side effects of the medicine in question in a relatively benign manner.
**most actual pills, however, are sugar coated***, so in that sense almost all pills (including both real pills and placebo pills) are "sugar" pills...
***the coating of pills is often plastic phthalates (embedded with sugar and artificial colors), yet another thing to worry about when taking pills...
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Mind is amazing (Score:4, Informative)
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Your point is moot. That might be the case for the one in a million that has such an issue, but that's not statistically significant.
Unless you are suggesting that 5-10% of a randomly selected group suffer from this or other very rare and apparently undiagnosed and unnoticed deficiencies or allergies, all reacting to the exact same very well controlled inert substances.
"inert ingredients" vs. inert (Score:4, Interesting)
Inert means inert, yes.
On the other hand, "inert ingredients" means ingredients that show up in a list in a standard as being supposed to be inert when used in a specific way. Thus, YMMV.
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What, they're made out of helium, argon, neon, xenon, krypton, and/or radon (although radon is radioactive)?
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The Snowman was very clearly referring to ingredients which are generally considered inert enough for used in placebos, but in a small majority of cases can have a direct, unintended physical effect. In a world where a small number of people are allergic to water, I challenge you to find any substance you could introduce to absolutely any human that's guaranteed to be truly "inert".
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And the snowman was also quite clearly not completely there when he made the suggestion that this very rare and apparently undiagnosed condition would account for 5-10% of people in a random group. The point is moot, the amount of people so afflicted is so small that it wouldn't make a statistical blip in a study like this.
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You have any credible references to this notion? I am a mediical doctor and have read countless scientific articles, and never have I heard about any active effect purposely added to the treatment of the placebo control group. That would instantly invalidate the trial, and it wouldn't get published.
Too Bad I don't Take Medications... (Score:3, Insightful)
And even if I did, I wouldn't get my info about them from the freaking commercials that list off what it's for, the horrendous side effects, as it shows a happy family playing outside, and then says "ask your doctor..." WTF?
The US is the only nation that allows pharma ads, and they're really harming our society because people go to the doc and demand certain meds as a result of these commercials. Enjoy your diharrea, heart palpitations, mild depression and thoughts of suicide.
This all relates back to the article, as these nocebo effects are a result of stupid people taking advice from even more idiotic marketing people about what drugs they need, for fake diseases like restless leg syndrome, and miracle cures that don't work and just cause you to die like the numerous discontinued drugs caught up in class action lawsuits for wrongful death.
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Fake disease? Restless leg syndrome is a real disease. Just because many claim to have the disease, while they dont, does not make the disease fake.
Re:Too Bad I don't Take Medications... (Score:4, Interesting)
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My restless legs haven't, though. Damn it's annoying as hell when I'm just trying to get to sleep and they start to ache in seconds if held still. Usually getting them really cold mitigates it enough to get to sleep, and they only bother me in the late evening.
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Have you noticed that the ads for restless leg syndrome drugs have vanished? Why is that?
Marketing isn't using television ads for that product anymore. Next question, please.
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Your outlook on medication probably causes more problems from the nocebo effect...
But you are right about the marketing at least.
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"restless leg syndrome,"
fine, what do you call it when a persons legs don't stop moving while they sleep? It's not like there isn't volumes of actual documentation.
Re:Too Bad I don't Take Medications... (Score:5, Funny)
"Horniness"
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I used to get it fairly regularly, but then I started eating more healthily. The couple of times I've had it this year have been after eating refined carbs/sugary stuff. Those foods cause inflammation and cause you to retain more water.
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Wheat (possibly gluten...) gives me inflammation/arthritic symptoms, eliminating it completely for several days makes the inflammation go away.
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What does your dog say to you?
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Most of their advertising is directed at doctors, so you can't go to the doctor without them trying to prescribe 2-3 drugs. Then when you experience side effects from those drugs, they'll try to prescribe more drugs to take care of the side effects.
Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
The US is the only nation that allows pharma ads
You [youtube.com] should [youtube.com] travel [youtube.com] more. [youtube.com]
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The US is the only nation that allows pharma ads, and they're really harming our society because people go to the doc and demand certain meds as a result of these commercials. Enjoy your diharrea, heart palpitations, mild depression and thoughts of suicide.
Sounds just fine to me. I imagine the real problem is that the above patients don't have to pay extra for the medications that they're demanding.
last example is very interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder if it's actually possible to commit suicide by swallowing placebos? Or is there some limit to the nocebo effect's severity that'd prevent that?
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I wonder if it's actually possible to commit suicide by swallowing placebos? Or is there some limit to the nocebo effect's severity that'd prevent that?
It can certainly lead to you hearing your neighbor's dog [imdb.com] talk to you.
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Your evidence that the mind controls the body is that you grandmother died 2 years after your grandfather.
Well, case closed, I guess.
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I'm not so sure. That whole survival instinct thing and all.
If I had the same meals with my spouse for 60 years and that spouse died, meals might become an unpleasant reminder of that person's death. I would start to dread meals and would probably be less inspired to eat. I'd lose weight and be less energetic which would certainly affect my general health and leave me susceptible to maladies that, in an elderly person, could be fatal.
So, no, I'm not sure that you can will yourself to die. That said, you
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I take it you've never had stress cause or exacerbate a health problem? I've had a few periods in my life where I've been massively stressed out and my hands and face break out in dry patches.
Relationship problems and breakups can give me feelings of physical pain (not really in short term ones, but with lines that have gone on for more than say 6 months). And still I can't imagine how horrible it would feel to lose someone after being married for 50 years. It's not so much a will to die, as an inability to
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It's not so much a will to die, as an inability to cope with stress, which can lead to things like poor quality sleep and lowered immune system function, etc.. a positive attitude helps fight these things, so an "I don't care any more" attitude could be the difference between life and death.
Which was basically my point.
The original question was whether or not I can take a bunch of sugar-pills but believe that they are poison and, thus, die because I believe that to be true. The answer is no, you can't. No matter how much you want to die, you can't will yourself to do so.
The person I was responding to pointed out that there were plenty of cases of people who lived together for years and when one died, the other passed away shortly thereafter. As I pointed out, depression can certainly affect
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no. You will notice the the nocebo* effect are non specific symptoms. They same things that tend to 'go away' when taking a placebo.
*nocebo is a stupid name. Scientists have known about this for some time. It's also a placebo effect.
Re:last example is very interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Nocebo is a perfectly reasonable name. "Placebo" is from a Latin root meaning "to please". "Nocebo" means "I will harm". It may sound like a silly portmanteu, but "nocebo" has roots of comparable authenticity that give rise to how the word is used today.
It would be a real stretch to make "placebo" refer to all psychosomatic effects. That would differ both from its Latin roots and from its common usage, which connotes positive effects (or at least, sought-for effects).
It is a bit late for the New York Times to be figuring this out. "Nocebo" is more recent in English than "placebo" (it only took off in the 1980s), but it's not news to science.
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Try this reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death [wikipedia.org]
'Psychosomatic death' is probably related to what you are thinking of.
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Well, let's look at it this way. Let's take metformin [wikipedia.org] and the clinical trials(my sister was in it and is a type 1). And we use that, they used a different inert for that, because well sugar doesn't react well to type 1 diabetics. Now let's just change that, and instead they were sugar pills. And the diabetic took all the pills at once. Unless they brought their sugars back under control, it's very probable to commit suicide by high blood sugar reaction(varying effects including impairment and ketoacido
Not quite... (Score:2)
And in turn, they would have indeed committed suicide by placebo.
That would be death by placebo TREATMENT, not by placebo EFFECT.
A neutral, non-sugary, placebo pill would create the same placebo effect, but it would not trigger a high blood sugar reaction in diabetics.
And I do believe that we are talking about the effect, not the treatment here.
Cause, one could just as well choke on a placebo pill and die from a placebo treatment.
Or slip on placebo pills spilled on top of the stairs and break one's neck.
Or get run over by a truck transporting placebo pills.
Or shot by a
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Well, if they are sugar pills, a sufficient quantity might kill a diabetic.
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Sure, the mind can cause physical illness, even death [wikipedia.org].
What? (Score:2)
All I'm saying is that the study reeks of confirmation bias.
And since when is a single sample case anything but anecdotal?
You didn't need a study for this (Score:2)
I'm frankly not surprised that people who imagine diseases imagine side-effects from placebos.
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Didn't RTFA, so I can't say for certain. But since we're talking about the "control" group, I would assume these aren't people who are imagining that they have the disease. Otherwise, they're not much of a "control" group since they're perfectly healthy.
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Please don't spread stupidities like these. Fibromyalgia may not be a disease, but that doesn't mean it's automatically a "psychiatric problem".
Disclaimer: I'm a software architect, not a doctor, and have never had a passing grade in biology.
My mother was diagnosed with fibromyalgia roughly 15 years ago. I may not like the woman, but I have to speak up for people who suffer from this syndrome; because whether or not it is related to some "psychiatric problem", these patients suffer tremendously. This is onl
Hmm (Score:3)
And yet, supposedly, the effectiveness of placebos is rising. What does this tell us? Human beings are becoming more pliable / suggestive, which is not a good thing.
For one, that level of pliability is probably a prelude to something really horrible, the least of which is a Justice / Legal system that will operate in "sideways mode." Not a problem until you're convicted of something you didn't do. But if you make sure you are always wealthy / powerful enough, it shouldn't ever be a problem.
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I wonder how the placebo effect's "potency" varies from culture to culture?
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I'm wondering if it's a stress response, which manifests differently in different people. For some people the idea that they're finally getting some help, or at least potentially getting it, is a huge stress reliever, which makes them better. For others the placebo isn't having the desired effect which stresses them out more, and it sort of feeds on itself making even their condition worse.
That would probably correlate to increased stress over time, but without the desire to dig through data and try and a
Confusion? (Score:2)
"We found that 11 percent of people in fibromyalgia drug trials who were taking fake medication dropped out of the studies because of side effects like dizziness or nausea". Aren't these also symptoms that fibromyalgia victims suffer? Could the participant merely be confusing a "side effect" with "fake pill simply not working"?
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IANAMP, but fibromyalgia is often linked to other diffuse and hard to clinically verify symptoms, much like whiplash, CFS and the newest popular diagnosis, chronic undetectable borreliosis. Which diagnosis -- if any -- a patient gets for diffuse symptoms that include pain can depend on both the doctor and what insurance companies will accept.
While there surely are people with the correct diagnosis, there are also an awful lot that have received a trashcan diagnosis like this - often more than one of them t
well (Score:2)
"he can suffer them even if the pill is fake."
by 'them' they mean non specific symptoms, then yes.
The Math Is Simple (Score:2)
Is ignorance bliss? (Score:2)
Up until now, when my doctor prescribed something for me, I always looked at the datasheet the pharmacist gave me and sometimes looked the drug up on the NIH website to find out about the side effects. I am somewhat suggestible; would I be better off not looking at drug information lest I get psychosomatic side effects? I can see some potential problems, like dying due to my failing to read some other crucial parts of the datasheet.
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The matrix (Score:2)
NEO: I thought it wasn't real.
NEO: If you are killed in the Matrix you die here?
MORPHEUS: The body cannot live without the mind.
So, DONT tell the patient that side effects include death, OK.
Remarkable Antidepressant Placebo (Score:2)
Here it comes! (Score:3)
The funniest part is that they often say "If you have been injured or killed by" such and such drug.
So if there is placebo side effects, there can now be lawsuits over taking almost nothing. Litigation paradise!
Or maybe they were allergic to corn sugar. (Score:2)
Or maybe they were allergic to some component of the placebo - such as corn sugar (a typical ingredient). Then they'd have REAL side effects.
Wrong, sorry (Score:2)
here's what I find even more interesting. (Score:2)
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Half of kids with ADD actually makes perfect sense to me.
We didn't evolve to what we are now by maintaining a daily routine of sitting in a desk for six hours staring at a teacher, then watching tv for four more, while fattening ourselves with concentrated sugars and hyper-processed foods of trade-secret fabrication.
Our diet and lifestyle are completely foreign to our evolution, and it's no surprise we're ADD, or diabetic, or just generally mental.
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Back when I was a kid "ADD" was called "boredom". So we discovered ways to not be bored:
Like paying eraser cars inside our desk.
Or doodling on a page.
Or reading a book.
Or staring at the girl's sideboob at the next desk..... ooops, no my mistake. That was just today.
Re:Why am I not suprised? (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, most folks I know who said they have fibromyalgia have been misdiagnosed because they had non-standard symptoms for some other condition. Fibromyalgia just seems to be a catch-all for when they have some symptoms in one area and they can't figure out what else it could be.
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This seems to be it, it's a guess as to something that fits some symptoms but has no known cause. Researchers and the medical community need to be clear they're talking about the same disease when they try and study it, so someone makes a mostly wild guess, sticks a name on it, and off you go. Cancer is actually a lot like that, there are probably a dozen different types of cancers (viral, environmental etc.) but they're all called cancer because they're symptomatically similar.
A few years ago there was
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Actually, most folks I know who said they have fibromyalgia have been misdiagnosed because they had non-standard symptoms for some other condition.
Could you share with us those "other conditions" that are misdiagnosed as fibromyalgia?
Because I have a very good friend who was diagnosed at a very young age with arthritis, fibromyalgia, and restless leg syndrome.
This friend has been tested for everything under the sun, but maybe you have some insight that I can share with them.
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Lyme Disease, Lupus, Arthritis, and I've heard of folks whose 'fibromialgia' cleared up after they were treated for apnea.
There are lots of things that cause pain/fatigue, etc, and if you don't have other standard symptoms they also cause, could get you lumped in as fibromialgia because they aren't sure what else to do with you.
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Fibromyalgia isn't a disease, it's just a fancy word for muscle pain.
It really means the doctor couldn't come up with a good diagnosis but they needed to call it something to get the patient out of their office.
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I'm 100% with you there.
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Fibromyalgia is real. Its really a psychological disorder, demonstrated by the fact that the standard treatment for it is some sort of mood stabilizing drug.
Its like the people who get all itchy when they see a cell phone tower. The tower might very well be inoperative (as was demonstrated by a study done in the UK). But they are driven to their symptoms by the belief that R.F. is coursing through their bodies. That doesn't make the symptoms any less real. It just makes the people suffering from them delus
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For my wife it was at first wondering why, with her lower back and legs in pain and numbness due to blown disk, her hands were also numb. After a few weeks on constant painkillers for her back, when those came down she found she was constantly fatigued, and with skin that felt like she had a 2nd degree sunburn over her whole body. And numb hands.
Are you proposing that, while her back was in excruciating pain, she chose to imagine that her hands were numb? Why would she go to the bother? It seems perfect
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After a few weeks on constant painkillers for her back,
The non-specific pain could have been a symptom of addiction [about.com] to the original painkillers.
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Untreated priapism can have adverse affects on male sexual performance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapism#Complications [wikipedia.org]
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Unless there already is some treatment for the condition. Withholding such treatment is a violation of medical ethics.