Israel To Join CERN As First Non-European Member 351
First time accepted submitter WorldPiece writes "More accurately, first non-European full member. This comes with some opposition from groups pushing to boycott Israel academia in response to the Israeli government's policies. 'It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations. This agreement enriches us scientifically and is an important step in that direction,' CERN's Director General Rolf Heuer, a German physicist, told the signing ceremony."
Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
Politics have no business in science.
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Unfortunately, many politicians make it their business, to dabble their fingers in science to get it under their control. For the usual motives: money, power, etc.
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No, Israel would not oppose to Iran participating in a worldwide nuclear-research body. Iran has very talented nuclear engineers. That would be a terrific project for them.
Oh, I'm Israeli.
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Yes, it's the Israeli scientists that are responsible for Mossad operations.
I mean, in every country the academia is responsible for counter-intelligence and military operations.
Life is so easy when you group together people just because they were all born in the same country. That's why people think that Americans are stupid. I mean, George Bush is stupid; George Bush is American; hence all Americans are stupid. Even Aristotle couldn't fault this logic.
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Iranian scientists aren't responsible for the fact Iran's leader is a giant asshole either, but that hasn't stopped Mossad assassinating them. They don't exactly have the option of ignoring Israeli politics and just doing science. Perhaps if scientists were less willing to cooperate with countries that murder other scientists, the Israeli government might actually be embarrassed enough to stop doing it - just a thought.
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The Israeli government never gets embarrassed. That's a proven fact.
This means that anything you do to harm the citizens of Israel simply harms the citizens of Israel. It doesn't change anything anywhere, just makes people's lives a bit more miserable.
There's no problem with that, of course. Many people lead miserable lives, and not just in the middle east. Isolating Israel culturally, financially and scientifically would make many people feel good inside, so at least there is something positive about it.
Bu
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I am happy to hear you say that. Unfortunately, Netanyahu and Lieberman (the Israeli PM and FM) may think differently. While I like the Israeli public, I have issues with the politicians.
You will find that most issues boil down to exactly this. 95 percent of Palestinian citizens would be friends with 95 percent of Israeli citizens if it were not for both sides' politicians. We both want the same thing: work and security for our families. Nobody really cares what the neighbours are doing, which prophets they revere.
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Actually the word democracy comes from the Greek demos (people) and Latin crassius (the worst). It's a system in which the worst people rule.
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
Politics have no business in science.
If there's funding involved, there's politics.
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Politics have no business in science.
Heisenberg. 1941. Are you certain?
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Well, according to him, I can't be...
Re:Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun [youtube.com]
A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown
"Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun
Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun
Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun
You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German oder English I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun.
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"Politics have no business in science."
You forgot to supply the attribution for your citation:
"Signed, Werner Von Braun".
Of course, it rings with more authority, when presented in the original German.
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CERN was founded by a political decision, and is publicly funded. So yes, politics do have business there. The very article says so: "It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations." That's a political agenda right there.
And in any case, allowing Israel in is a political decision. CERN is publicly operated, so any and all decisions concerning it are political by definition.
Accuracy (Score:2)
Politics have no business in science.
Accuracy does though - Israel is becoming and associate member NOT a full member of CERN. There is a difference!
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Palestine isn't officially recognized as a state right now, and would fall under Israel's admittance. It's internal politics in Israel itself that's keeping Palestine out at this point, not CERN itself.
Let's see what happens after this week's UN vote on whether Palestine should be admitted as a state before we start throwing around statements like yours, yes?
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you would have no problem if Palestine is admitted as a full member?
No problem. [web.cern.ch]
As soon as Palestinian contribution to CERN becomes significant enough.
Re:Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that you are comparing the way the Arabs in Palestinian territories live to those trapped in Nazi concentration camps, shows that you have not paid attention in history class. Please observe how terrible life is for these poor people in Gaza: http://goo.gl/H4zY5 [goo.gl] and then ask for a refund from your high school.
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Where exactly is GP making that comparison?
Re:Good. (Score:4, Informative)
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How this ever got to +4 insightful I will never know. Rather, it just shows how much pro-Israel propaganda has been successful in the west. The image of Israel as a beleaguered state, surrounded on all sides by enemies while it is only defending itself is largely a creation of the media and has no relation whatsoever to the actual history of the region.
I will not go into a discussion of the conflict here as any not pro-Israeli posts get modded -1 overrated to oblivion but I will point out what I do know and
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politics a vital part of the mission? (Score:2)
"It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations."
I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
Re:politics a vital part of the mission? (Score:5, Interesting)
"It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations."
I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
International co-operation is pretty critical in science, without touching on politics at all. That's one of the great things about conferences. I went to a conference in the US earlier in the year, and met someone doing a PhD in hydrology. After chatting with them, it turned out that as part of their work they had collected a pretty comprehensive set of deep-sea water samples for an area I was interested in. I work on marine microbiology, and my university has no way of collecting deep-sea water samples. After a little discussion and a few polite emails later to her P.I., they kindly gave me pretty hefty aliquots of water from as deep as 5,600m below the sea surface. That stuff has been pretty central to the work in my PhD and like I said, I had no way of getting it on my own.
International co-operation, collaboration and exchanges of ideas and equipment/samples is incredibly important and doesn't have to involve politics one bit.
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Engineering is union of applied science, business and art.
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Engineering is not science?
No, engineering is not science in the same way that a reader of a book is not an author. Engineering uses science. If you need further proof just look at the vast majority of universities: science and engineering and separate faculties.
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I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
Building bridges facilitates Science by providing more sources of $$$.
CERN is about science, but even Newton had to eat.
I'm a bit taken aback that they've allowed a non-European country to join, but the United States is still relegated to "Observer status" (E.g. 'Source of $$$, but not allowed to participate or become a full member')
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I'm a bit taken aback that they've allowed a non-European country to join, but the United States is still relegated to "Observer status" (E.g. 'Source of $$$, but not allowed to participate or become a full member')
Then you'll be glad to know that the US are not a "source of $$$" for CERN:
CERN budget by states [web.cern.ch] [2009 budget, seems to be the newest available].
Yes, goods and services (designing and building stuff) did and do come from the US too, but those
happen with full scientific involvement of several big American universities and research facilities.
I have no idea where you got the idea from that the US don't participate in CERN research,
or are even somehow forbidden to do so.
History of CERN (Score:3)
I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
CERN was founded in the post second world war period. Part of its aim was to build bridges between nations THROUGH science since it was well recognised that science provides a common goal to work towards and that scientists are usually pretty open minded about most things. It certainly worked for me - as a Brit I now have many friends and colleagues scattered around the globe from a huge variety of different national, cultural and religious backgrounds thanks to CERN.
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"It is a vital part of our mission to build bridges between nations."
I thought CERN was all about science. What's this about building bridges?
Absolutely. Despite all of the talk here about "Science should be above politics", this seems politically-motivated. If you want to expand CERN beyond the boundaries of Europe because you want to add the best scientific minds you can to your group, then just say so (and Israel has a first-rate groups of scientists and engineers). But leave politics out of it. Stick to the science, and leave "building bridges" to the diplomats, please. Just come out and say "Hey, Israel has top scientists and we want them in
what's CERN's geographical goal? (Score:2)
What's more interesting to me than Israel joining specifically, is the "first non-European member of the European Organization for Nuclear Research". Is Israel simply an exception, or will CERN be moving to less of a European focus in the future? For example, Turkey has applied for membership; will they eventually join? Could other in-the-region-of-Europe states like Egypt join?
Re:wait a minute (Score:4, Informative)
Israel is actially in West-Asia. Geographically that place was never considered to be a part of Europe. However there are strong cultural ties.
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No, Asia Minor is where Turkey is.
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Turkey actually straddles Europe and Asia... the line between the two continents goes right through Istanbul.
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No, the modern day country of Turkey is Asia Minor, because it was previously the Roman Imperial province of Asia and we later decided that there was more to Asia than just Ionia. The part of the Middle East that Rome controlled was called the province of Syria (due to the Assyrians) and it included the modern day countries of Syria, Jordan and Israel. Today we just consider the whole thing Asia, though where it ends is really just drawing line in the sand. For instance, is all of Russia in Asia?
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Continents are defined by plate tectonics. So West of Ural is Europe.
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Israel is actially in West-Asia.
Israel lies to the west of the Syrian-African rift. Israel is therefore on the African continent. Even more so then Madagascar for instance. It just doesn't look that way on the map because maps use water for designating boundaries, not continental plates.
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It just doesn't look that way on the map because maps use water for designating boundaries, not continental plates.
To be fair, water was discovered a fair while before continental plates.
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Then what about the Eurovision song contest :P
And I guess you mean Shephardic Jews. Ashkenzi Jews are culturally European.
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it's not american ...
I think that it kind of is.
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That government has no right to exist except by the force it uses to subjugate the natives.
The same could be said of any government. That's what a government is.
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...presently occupied by rich, white Eurasians...
....has no right to exist except by the force it uses to subjugate the natives...
...Another remnant of the British Empire...
It's funny how that's not so much different from the United States :)
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Most of the Jews in Israel come from Poland/Germany
That is not true. There are more Sephardim ("Oriental") Jews in Israel than Western.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel [wikipedia.org] where it says: "Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World). Jews who left or fled Arab and Muslim lands and their descendants, known as Mizrahi or Sephardi Jews, constitute approximately 50% of Jewish
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And theft of the Litani.
Re:Did South-Africa ... (Score:5, Insightful)
BDS is one piece of weapon in an arsenal diplomatic warfare. Yes, weapons can be used to push peace, but they are not, generally, considered a "peace device".
BDS is particularly evil for several reasons. The most ironical is that it attempts to collectively punish all Israelis for what Israel is supposedly doing, thus using collective punishment to protest collective punishment. Presumably, this is okay because it's done by "the good guys"(tm).
More to the point, BDS strives to prevent the other side from voicing its opinion to argue whether the acts protested are real, or just products of propaganda and distortion. In that respect, BDS is just another propaganda employed against Israel. Weapons may, in some rare circumstances, bring peace, but propaganda seldom does.
More to the point, however, BDS strives under all that is "Academia". I can sometimes agree that economical sanctions are in order (nothing that Israel has justified, but I can see how others might disagree with that sentiment). I can understand a cultural boycott, though don't see how it ever does any good. An Academic boycott, however, is never justified.
True discourse and exchange of ideas, some of which you might not like, is the cornerstone of academia. Shutting down someone else's voice is never an academic thing to do, least of all for political reasons.
Shachar
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Ah, right. BDS is "collective punishment" hence equivalent of Israel keeping the entire Gaza on the brink of collapse. How very perceptive of you.
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Right, exactly. And collective punishment is bad, agreed? So you think we should collectively punish the Israelis, because their leaders are collectively punishing the Palestinians, because their leaders have attacked Israel in the past? If so, who should collectively punish us when our leaders follow your advice? And who, in turn, should collectively punish our punisher?
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Yes, it almost sounds vaguely plausible.
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Re:Did South-Africa ... (Score:5, Insightful)
It is intended to remind them, peacefully, that they have the power to change this by electing a government whose policies do not violate international laws.
But what if I disagree with you that my government is, indeed, violating international laws? If you will not hear what I have to say (because you are boycotting my academia), then how will you find out in case you are wrong?
BDS is about saying "there is no chance we can possibly be wrong, and no further discussion is necessary", which is another way of saying it is just propaganda. It is also the anti-thesis of the most fundamental core academic value.
Shachar
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BDS is about saying "there is no chance we can possibly be wrong, and no further discussion is necessary", which is another way of saying it is just propaganda.
BDS is about using soft power to create change.
Or are you arguing that the BDS campaign against South Africa was "just propaganda"?
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I'm saying that, the way BDS is carried out, you cannot be sure whether the change you are trying to bring about is the right change.
Shachar
Re:Did South-Africa ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you seriously suggesting that refusing to deal with people on a voluntary basis is somehow equivalent to blockading them, denying the importation of food after calculating the absolute minimum calories required to prevent mass deaths and joking about how it's "like a visit to the dietician, the Palestinians will get a lot thinner but won't die," destroying their capacity to make food by destroying chicken farms and flour mills, destroying sewage treatment pond retaining walls so they spoil farmland, destroying their electrical plants then denying the importation of parts to repair them, destroying thousands of homes and refusing to allow them to rebuilt by forbidding the importation of building materials, and denying the export of what little they do produce so they can't have any economy?
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Long though it may be, your comment still contains far too many mischaracterizations to comfortably fit into a single paragraph.
1. I am not suggesting BDS is equivalent to anything in particular. I'm just stating that it is part of a propaganda warfare, rather than, like its supporters claim it is, a peaceful tool.
2. I'm not sure where you took that quote from. It fits with neither anything I'm aware that Israel has done, nor anything I'm aware that my (not always smart) leaders have said. Care to give the
Re:Did South-Africa ... (Score:4, Informative)
Two sources for the quote are ynet [ynetnews.com] and Haaretz. [haaretz.com] The NYT [nytimes.com] passed it along too. The BBC [bbc.co.uk] reported on documents obtained by Gisha from the Israeli government detailing the blockade and containing estimates of the calories required by Gazans to stay alive.
It took five minutes to Google this up. Open your eyes and see that what has been happening for decades now is real and not just some "narrative." Of course, I'm sure you can cook up some explanation of why it's a military necessity to prevent food from entering Gaza.
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Your question is irrelevant because Israel is not South Africa. It's not even like South Africa. The odious comparison is simply a propaganda point used to demonize Israel.
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So? Jimmy Carter has done and said a lot of things. Doesn't mean they're all true or all good.
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It may interest you to know that most of the cease fires that've been negotiated between the Palestine and Israel in the last 15 years have been broken by Israel, not Palestine
Citation, please?
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Wow. I guess we can take this as an example of being able to make anything out of anything.
From the article you cite:
The mainstream media in the US and Israel places the blame squarely on Hamas. Indeed, a massive barrage of Palestinian rockets were fired into Israel in November and December
So, there was a barrage of rockets fired into Israel. The article fails to mention these were aimed at civilian population. But, no, we were in a ceasefire before that. Or were we? From the article:
the ceasefire was remarkably effective: after it began in June 2008, the rate of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza dropped to almost zero
Emphasis added.
So, the Palestinian definition of "ceasefire" is "you don't shoot at us, and we hardly shoot at you as much as we want to".
If two rockets a week is your definition of "ceasefire", th
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For one, it's not the Palestinian nation that's firing rockets, it's individuals within, and for two, most of the rockets they're firing don't actually have a warhead, and aren't actually any more dangerous than a bottle rocket. Rather different than using live ammunition and launching rocket air strikes, no?
I have never said that either side is without fault. I am, however, drawing issue with people who seem to believe that no fault at all lies at the feet of the Israelis. As I said previously, it's mutual
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I'm curious. Does it hurt when your knee jerks like that?
You shouldn't be one to talk of jerking-knees. Your legs are still swinging from the force of yours.
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The difference between Israel and South Africa in the 1980s is that South Africa limited the rights of their citizens based on race, while minorities in Israel [wikipedia.org] have full civil rights.
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Did you read that article? There may be de jure equality but the situation on the ground is very different.
Don't pretend that Israel is some poor, put upon liberal democracy. It isn't. That said, it seems churlish to refuse scientific cooperation with them. Isolation will only serve to make them more paranoid, more reactionary, and more likely to lash out in response to threats.
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If you start boycotting countries because they have a minority that feels they are discriminated against then no country in the world will be left.
I bet the Lapps in Norway or the Tyroleans in Austria have their complaints too. Or the Kurds in Turkey, Tibetans in China, Basques in Spain, Copts in Egypt, Tuaregs and Bedouins in North Africa... get the drift?
Re:Military State (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, what a condescending reply.
Israel is not a "military state" in the sense that the military controls politics. It's a pretty dynamic democracy with a highly-diverse set of viewpoints. It also has a very educated labour force and a high number of high-tech companies and startups.
Israel has long been known for innovation. Just google "Israeli Innovation".
Those who propose BDS on the spurious basis of "Israeli Apartheid [sic]" are blind to reality, either out of ignorance or malice. While Israel is not perfect and its Arab citizens do suffer discrimination, it's nowhere near the level of South African Apartheid, and those same Arab citizens have more civil rights in Israel than in any Arab country.
Re:Military State (Score:4, Insightful)
Just the systematic purging of Arabs in Jerusalem (by refusing permits to Arabs to modify or build new houses) though is not something you would expect to find in any true developed democracy conscious of it's minorities.
You can wonder if a democracy can operate properly at all if it's main issues are related to security
The fact that most of Israel's neighbours are fucked up countries as well (although Jordan doesn't seem bad imho and we can hopefully see positive things developing in Egypt) doesn't plead in any way that Israel is a democratic country. It'd be like comparing the US to Mexico and conclude that the US doesn't seem to have a lot of gun fights
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Re:Military State (Score:5, Informative)
Funny.
I suggest you take a look at, e.g, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-up_Nation [wikipedia.org]. Here's one paragraph (the source is backed by reference):
"How is it that Israel -- a country of 7.1 million people, only sixty years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources -- produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful, and stable nations like Japan, China, India, Korea, Canada, and the United Kingdom?[4] The Economist notes that Israel now has more high-tech start-ups and a larger venture capital industry per capita than any other country in the world."
Or, e.g., browse the list that ranks the top-100 computer science departments in the world [arwu.org] and observe where and how many times the Israeli flag appears in the list. (FYI, Israel has only 6 universities.)
etc. etc.
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You are right. The 3$ billions per year Israel receives from the U.S. is ~1% of Israel's yearly budget. Importantly, most of the U.S. aid comes in the form of military equipment (that is, the actual funds flow directly to the pockets of U.S. military industry). It has nothing to do with start-ups and CS departments.
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Respectfully, it's clear you don't really know anything about Israeli exact science academia and high-tech industry, both of which rely very little on government money; most of their funding comes from international competitive research funds and international investors, respectively.
If anything, Israel's army i
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Yes, at least if we remove all outside influence from the area and left all the countries to their own devices. The Israelis would slaughter the competition.
Re:Military State (Score:4, Informative)
Do you even think that Israel would exist today without US backup?
Well, it's impossible to answer "what if" questions, but Israel didn't receive substantial assistance from the US until after the 1967 war and it survived quite nicely from 1948-1967.
Re:Military State (Score:4, Interesting)
For a military state such as Israel, it is impressive that every now and then they come up with innovations; not very many, but they do come up with them.
I can cite two clear counter-examples in tech. If you posted on a computer that using an Intel chip newer than an Pentium IV, the technology came from Intel's Israel development center. If you've played a game using a MS Kinect, that also came from Israel.
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Patents = innovation.
So patenting a linked list with two pointers is a sign of innovation?
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Szh4AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false [google.com]
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Military inspired innovations aren't anything new. We are communicating via the Internet which was in part started by a US DoD project. One could argue all technology is military based from the philosophical stand point, but why digress.
What I fail to comprehend, at least feign to fail to comprehend is why not allow Palestinians to be part of the UN. Why? This forces them into a statehood with consequences for their actions. It would force elements like Hamas to conform or frankly to be killed/imprisoned as
Re:Bad (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?
Probably dozens. Lebanon keeps Palestinians in poverty in refugee camps instead of integrating them into society. There were no universities at all in the West Bank prior to 1967. Hamas spends money on weapons that could be spent on education.
Yes, indeed. Palestinian society, much like the rest of the Arab world, allows a criminal waste of human potential by diverting energy towards a conflict instead of towards building up civil society. That's why most Arab states have a low (and usually declining) human development index and shockingly inefficient economies compared to Israel.
Devoting your energy to conflict and bitterness will destroy you before it destroys your enemy.
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They've probably blown themselves up so they can get to their 72 virgins already.
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I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?
From TFA: "In a news release on the agreement, CERN said Israel had supported Palestinian students studying and working there, as well as sending mixed Israeli-Palestinian contingents to its summer study programme."
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Re:Bad (Score:5, Informative)
Politics IS a science. And science has politics. I wonder how many potential Palestinian scientists have gone undetected, untrained and unfunded?
As a student at the Technion, Israel's premier university, I can tell you that Arabs are very disproportionately overrepresented there. That's fine, there is good reason: the Arabs have strong motivation to work hard and push ahead. Despite the huge number of Arabs in Israeli universities, I do not recall a single political or racial event in my time at the Technion. Not one.
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Wow it's great Israel is a democracy. Do the Arabs in the West Bank get to vote in elections?
It's some democracy you have there when only Jews and a few token Arabs in the north can vote. Or where you have to, as of 2010, swear to a loyalty oath in order to vote - unless you're a Jew. You're not that bright spouting this democracy nonsense here - this is not the mass media where that stuff
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"Wow it's great Israel is a democracy. Do the Arabs in the West Bank get to vote in elections?"
Do Afghanistanis get to vote in American Elections? How about Iraqis? What about Mexicans?
Arabs in the west bank are not Israeli citizens, they're a people who live in disputed territories, although many of them are Jordanian citizens.
Israeli Arabs are citizens, however, and do vote in elections and are otherwise protected as equal citizens. Considering they make up more than 20% of the Israeli population and gove
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Wow it's great Israel is a democracy. Do the Arabs in the West Bank get to vote in elections?
Of course they do. As in the sentence "Abu Mazen was elected president of the Palestinian Authority".
They do not get to vote in the Israeli elections, but, then again, neither do the residents of South Dakota (except for a "token few" who are Israeli citizens).
Also, no loyalty declaration requirement. It never passed as law. I'm beginning to miss a "misinformed" moderation action.
Shachar
Gaza != Israel ? (Score:4, Insightful)
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