Chandrayaan-1 Spots Giant Underground Chamber On the Moon 322
siliconeyes writes "Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organization have discovered a giant underground chamber on the moon, which they feel could be used as a base by astronauts on future manned missions to moon. An analysis by an instrument on Chandrayaan-1 revealed a 1.7-km long and 120-metre wide cave near the moon's equator that is in the Oceanus Procellarum area of the moon that could be a suitable 'base station' for future human missions."
to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Other than that, sure, sounds spiffy. Now we just need to wait for something useful to do up in Space (and practical, for that matter.)
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Informative)
There are certainly dust storms of a sort. Dust is moved by electrostatic forces as the sun rises and sets - all those charged particles coming out of the Sun, unimpeded, is like rubbing an amber rod with cat fur.
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What next, whalers on the moon?
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I thought the next step was always ???...
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Funny)
which they feel could be used as a base by astronauts on future manned missions to moon.
What makes them think the moon's crawlspace is not already in use?
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Vacuum is a darn good insulator, so it would be a terrible datacenter unless it used eject-able heatsinks of some sort.
Just put the datacenter on the dark side of the moon... ;)
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The space shuttle is cooled using radiative heat rejection. It works well.
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No, But solid rock can be a reasonably good heat sink, and the moon is not totally devoid of shallow moisture.
It is feasible that some means of dispersing the heat from a datacenter into a very long network of copper tubing snaked through the bedrock of the cave system would be a suitable solution.
The issue then, is how to get signal in and out of the isolated data center reliably without an on-station maintenance crew. Solar particles would do very very nasty things to a large antenna array...
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Go to Scotland in November. Sit on a stone wall. Does your arse feel cold?
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Insightful)
So add in an electrostatic ion breeze just inside the airlock. Or if you have extra water(moon I know) a quick hose down will work as well.
There are several ways to deal with that problem.
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Informative)
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Or just have the suits outside, which youi then crawl into from a hatch in the back, the whole time like in the new space car that Top Gear showed in their last episode :-)
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Funny)
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This cave is near the equator, and as you know, the moon is dark two weeks every month. You'll need some pretty good power storage systems to keep a manned base running for that long on backup. The only place you would have (nearly) perpetual sunlight would be on the poles.
I suggest giant fly wheels 1.5 miles in hight.... ahhh never-mind just send up a 9000mWh graphite based nukular reactor....
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i'm not sure what good a 9000 milli-Watt/hour reactor would be, might as well carry a laptop battery or two instead...
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Heat engines would do the trick easily. Large temperature differences exist between the surface (hot/cold) and the bottom of the cave. You would need to change the direction of the piping twice a month.
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You would need to change the direction of the piping twice a month.
The Earth would go bankrupt just on delivery of the liquid for this heat engine, unless it is molten glass or some other local material. But local materials are hard to use.
We can't set up any heavy machinery on the Moon or on other planets without some major discoveries in propulsion. Right now we are like ancient seafarers in a canoe crossing the Atlantic ocean. Can it be done? Yes, perhaps, if you really have to. Is it practical? Not
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The part that we *see* is dark for half the month, but the moon as a whole is always half lit except for during a lunar eclipse. You could run a big power cable halfway around the moon and always have power ;)
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Well with the cost of he3 heading north you never know, never might be sometime sooner than you might have funkit. Plus you could always make anti-mater up there and ship it back home just like how the klingons use to...
"Anti-mater" (Score:4, Funny)
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This is troll food, probably, but it might get some people thinking.
From what we know of the regolith and presence of water on the Moon, one of the first commercially viable industries will be the construction and launching of Earth satellites, built with the ferro-concrete technology we perfected some 70 years ago. The Portland cement comes from cooking sorted and graded regolith in solar ovens, in vacuum; the process will have quite an interesting set of by products, including, I believe, oxygen. The re
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Satellites don't die because they get hit by a micrometeorites, they die because they run out of fuel to keep them from combating atmospheric drag and general maneuvering. Moving more mass takes more energy for the same effect so heavy satellites will be a bitch. Not to mention the difficultly in properly de-orbiting them and the horror if one of them does hit something solid. Or hits anything period, like a micrometeorite. Congratulations, you've not create fifty new micrometeorites from the concrete chipp
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:5, Funny)
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.
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It's actually a trap.
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The Moon is indeed... a harsh mistress.
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The Moon is indeed... a harsh mistress.
blah we all know that you love it when she asphyxia's you at the controls to the unloading dock... you really need to start hanging a sock on the door or something man..
Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... (Score:4, Informative)
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/07dec_moonstorms/ [nasa.gov]
Nope, there are moonstorms. From the link:
"All this matters to NASA because, by 2018 or so, astronauts are returning to the Moon. Unlike Apollo astronauts, who never experienced lunar sunrise, the next explorers are going to establish a permanent outpost. They'll be there in the morning when the storm sweeps by.
The wall of dust, if it exists, might be diaphanous, invisible, harmless. Or it could be a real problem, clogging spacesuits, coating surfaces and causing hardware to overheat.
Which will it be? Says Stubbs, "we've still got a lot to learn about the Moon."
I guess you dont know about Heilium 3. (Score:3)
Ever hear of helium 3? Perhaps you are unaware that there is a severe shortage of it? Perhaps you are also unaware that it is used for lots and lots of stuff which make our modern world possible.
Lastly, it seems that you are unaware that the moon contains shit loads of it.
Seems to me like a practice and profitable reason.
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Though there's a lot less dust up there than we once thought. There's a rather enjoyable Arthur C. Clark story "A Fall Of Moondust [wikipedia.org]", written pre-moon exploration, which describes ships faring through the stuff.
The aliens live in it (Score:4, Funny)
So do the humans plan evicting the aliens that live in there? Or do they live only on the side of the moon that doesn't face Earth?
Lava Tube (Score:5, Informative)
A far better link is this one: http://www.moonsociety.org/reports/ISRO_Lavatube_Discovery.html [moonsociety.org]
You can't tell the length of a chamber from a photograph of the surface. Its not at all clear that there is any enclosed space in this tube. It could have been that the un-collapsed section is in fact filled full of derbies. Until we can hit them with ground penetrating radar its probably guesswork.
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== does not represent a query, it represents a comparisson, indicating "is equal to". A single = would mean "thing on left becomes thing on right".
Next, it's "rather than" - saying you'd rather empty out a chamber filled out with crap then construct a chamber from scratch is stupid - why would you construct one from scratch if you've already emptied one out? (hint: Then with an E means "do thing A.
C programming language, not mathematical notation (Score:4, Informative)
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Sweet! Let's get there ASAP! I want my Moon Hat! How many derbies would it take to fill that cave? Surely there's enough to go around!
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That in and of itself is a great reason to go there. Just think: one of those derbies might be the legendary Kirward Derby. [wikipedia.org] If so, whoever wears it could easily figure out how to solve all the world's problems, including paying for the trip.
Re:Lava Tube (Score:4, Interesting)
If it's filled with derbies, I think we better get up there fast and close the hat gap we're going to be experiencing soon with the rest of the world.
We've know for a while that people aren't wearing enough hats [imdb.com], but now we know just how big the problem is.
It's just binocs chewin' on the power cables... (Score:5, Funny)
I've only one thing to say (Score:5, Funny)
metal munching moon mice (Score:3)
for some reason when i read this the phrase "metal munching moon mice" popped into my head. apparently it's from a rocky and bullwinkle episode i must have seen a very long time ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal-Munching_Mice [wikipedia.org]
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Dahak? (Score:2)
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Data haven (Score:4, Informative)
Since the moon isn't covered by any legal jurisdiction, it would be a perfect place to set up a data haven. In fact, I believe one company already has plans to set up a lunar facility [google.com].
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Since the moon isn't covered by any legal jurisdiction, it would be a perfect place to set up a data haven. In fact, I believe one company already has plans to set up a lunar facility [google.com].
Two words: high latency.
People won't settle for crappy ping times - a minimum of 2,600 ms.
And of course, it's only usable when the moon is above the horizon.
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On the other hand, it's just about the perfect definition of off-site backup!
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True. In the event of something happening that takes out both the Moon and the Earth, your data will be the least of your concerns.
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Umm... I'd even say, if something takes out the Earth, your data isn't really your concern. On the Moon or elsewhere.
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True. In the event of something happening that takes out both the Moon and the Earth, your data will be the least of your concerns.
Unless your data includes "How to build a new Earth." Then you'd want it!
Re:Data haven (Score:4, Interesting)
Hollywood never shows it, but then again they have people on radios from Mars in real time and that's something like a 20 minutes to a half hour one way.
Just imagine calling home from Mars. You dial the number, then wait a half hour before it starts ringing on Earth so someone will pick it up, by the time you hear them saying "hello", about an hour has gone by. Not very reasonable.
The 1.3 seconds to the Moon would drive most computer communication protocols nuts, especially since they won't know if the other end has even received a packet for a bit more than 2 and a half seconds. Someone out there has written an interplanetary protocol, but I don't believe it's actually been implemented for anything.
As a side note, NASA uses their own custom stuff to talk to their probes. They even have to take into account doppler shift due to the relative speeds and trajectories of their probes and receivers. It can get really messy if you haven't planned for it.
All times will vary depending on the exact positions between the two bodies since they are orbiting the sun in different orbits, and if you want to communicate with something on the other side of the sun from you, you can't, at least not directly. To do that trick you have to send the signal to something else that can see both you and your intended recipient so they can relay it, which means a longer route and so a longer delay in any communications.
Sci-Fi is so much easier with Ansibles, Sub-space Radios, and other types of instant communications.
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Sci-Fi's superluminal communication can actually be extrapolated from Quantum entanglement [wikipedia.org], if you're so inclined. Not saying that's a guaranteed solution, but you can imagine it happening.
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And of course, it's only usable when the moon is above the horizon.
I might be missing something here, but isn't the moon always visible from somewhere on Earth? You'd need maybe 2 or 3 receivers (USA, Spain, Australia?)
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The moon's not covered by any legal jurisdiction, because at the moment, it doesn't really need to be. Once any human activity starts, the lawyers will crawl out of the woodwork, and treaties, contracts and agreements will begin to stack up nicely. Pretty much as it does in International Marine Law.
It's an whole new way
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Bah, just send them out for a walk, once they are up there. Problem solved.
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that would be my plan for all the we didn't walk on the moon conspiracy theorists. Take them up there first and convince them they are right and they can just remove their helmets.
Sometimes Darwin needs a hand.
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Useless place (Score:3)
This cace is "near the moon's equator". The only places where we could find water are on the poles. So, what to do there? Sitting in a cave doing nothing may be fine, but why go to the moon for that?
Re:Useless place (Score:5, Interesting)
This cace is "near the moon's equator". The only places where we could find water are on the poles.
It's not that hard to move the water, especially in a low-g environment such as the moon. A pipeline from the pole to the equator would be about 1,700 miles, definitely possible considering that the longest pipeline on Earth [wikipedia.org] is around 2,500 miles.
You could also have largely autonomous vehicles which shuttle back and forth from both sites on a ballistic trajectory, it would take a relatively low amount of energy. Hell, I'd use something like a space fountain [wikipedia.org] or launch loop [wikipedia.org] because most of the energy of launch could be re-captured when the payload lands.
Natural lava tubes this size are a great find for many reasons:
A large, stable lava tube greatly simplifies the entire process and saves a lot of time and money.
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It's not that hard to move the water, especially in a low-g environment such as the moon.
It's a bit harder to pump ice, though...
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Just throw ice cubes in launch loop.
Re:Useless place (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think the pipeline would work. 1700 miles is easy on earth, but a much tougher construction project in hard vacuum. Can you imagine welding though spacesuit gloves? Not to mention it'd be terribly expensive to lift 1700 miles of pipe. Even then you'll have to expend a lot of energy heating it so the water doesn't freeze.
I'd think it'd be easier to dig another cave in a more convenient location.
On the other hand, the words "Space fountain" gave me an awesome idea before I looked up what it really is. Here's what I thought: collect water at the poles, pressurize it, and squirt it through a nozzle on a ballistic trajectory toward the moon base. Lay out tarps all around the base. The water will freeze in flight and fall on the tarps. When you need more water, reel the tarps in and collect the ice.
You could improve the aim by making a specialized nozzle. After initially launching the drops, have them go down a long barrel, perhaps tens of meters long, with some kind of noncontacting guidance mechanism inside. Induction coils? Little microdroplet sprayers? It'd be like aiming the electron beam down a CRT. Depending how tight you can dial in the convergence, you might be able to make due with a giant funnel on the receiving end.
Keep in mind you don't need to bring back a lot of water. You only need enough to replenish what gets lost. Pipelines are great for big volume, but for these small amounts, I'd bet the "moon fountain" might cut it.
Or just send out an RC moon buggy to pick up a few barrels from time to time.
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In some ways it would be harder (due to the lack of local water), but in other ways much easier. The equatorial region can be reached from any orbit, while the poles require a polar orbit. Anything coming from Earth is going to have an easier time getting into low-inclination orbits, making movement back and forth more feasible for an equatorial base.
As far as what they'd do, the earliest stages would mostly involve simply setting up the base and keeping it running. After that you can focus on science an
Back to the caves (Score:5, Funny)
Caveman > Bronze Age > Iron Age > Industrial Age > Space Age > Caveman
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But, would it be a cave spaceman or a space caveman??
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Your post is full of grammatical errors so don't get started.
No! Don't go into the moon caves! (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Trip_to_the_Moon [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat-Women_of_the_Moon [wikipedia.org]
.
almost useless (Score:3)
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Unless this is a deep, deep chamber the possibility of it collapsing when pressurized precludes just plugging up holes and using it.
The plan for this kind of construction usually involves shoring and lining the tube to be sure that there are no weak points or leaks. You'd also build structures inside the tube that are sealable and have redundant safety measures.
A lava tube would would make an excellent first-line of protection but it wouldn't be the only one. It would save a lot of time and money in the construction of a lunar settlement.
In further news... (Score:4, Funny)
Scientists also report seeing a tall black monolith inside the chamber. Investigations are continuing...
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Re:Monolith (Score:2)
Honestly, I wish they *DID*! Maybe Jupiter igniting into a second sun would make those crazies in the Middle East settle down.
Ya think?
Poor Cavor... (Score:2)
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Heh, I was wondering whether I was the only person old school enough to be thinking of H.G. Wells and his Selenites.
Illuminati is Getting Lazy (Score:3)
Shit, they found it! (Score:5, Funny)
Bloody human scientists! Now I have to relocate.
dust-free? really? (Score:3, Insightful)
From the article, "the lava tubes offer a dust-free environment and adapting them for human use requires minimal construction. "
I think someone's been drinking too much of the strong coffee if they can conclude anything about dust levels in a lunar cave without having put any telemetry into the hole, or think that adapting any natural structure on the moon requires minimal construction without having actually imaged the fine-scale condition of the rock.
Re:dust-free? really? (Score:5, Informative)
Their citations 2-8 are other papers which discuss the possibility of using caves like this for human habitation. The paper also includes spectroscopic studies of the composition of the roof -- seems like lots of Iron and Titanium.This seems to indicate Basalts (volcanic) according to the paper.If it withstood a lava flow, presumably it will survive an atmospheric re-pressurisation/ bunch of construction crews drilling away.
they'll be fine... (Score:2)
...As long as they don't drop a "Clanger" and upset the "Soup Dragon"...
Even more holes in the Moon (Score:2)
Daneel Olivaw's base 20,000 years from now... (Score:2)
...after the Earth had been all but abandoned and become a legend.
Nazis on the Moon (Score:2)
Of course, some people have known about this for a long time...
http://www.ironsky.net/site/ [ironsky.net]
Air Tank / Flying Chamber (Score:2)
I hope to some day fly with wings in that low-G chamber when it's pressurized with the air storage for our Moon colony. As per Heinlein's The Menace From Earth [wikipedia.org] (1957).
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We've already landed on the Moon, evidently about 30 years before you were born. Your feeble efforts at dreaming don't have to limit my imagination, especially when you're unable to imagine Moon colonies that have been imagined for you for generations. Now put the fail pipe down and back away from the keyboard. Take a walk or something.
Beware the Wrath of Kahn (Score:2)
So, when do we go live with the "genesis wave"?
To quote Kirk, if years seemed like eons, how long? A few years away! ;)
I just checked my map... (Score:2)
...why is that named "R'lyeh"?
Prepare for Second Impact (Score:2)
Re:fist cave post (Score:4, Funny)
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My God...it's full of Nazis! [ironsky.net]
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Is that you speaking, Zarathustra?
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"People old enough to have read and enjoyed Heinlein stories"
Uh!? Has English changed so much back from the sixties/seventies that books that old are readeable no more?