Cancer Resembles Life 1 Billion Years Ago 223
An anonymous reader writes "What is cancer? It's not an invader; it's spawned from our own bodies. And it bears striking resemblance to early multicellular life from 1 billion years ago. This has led astrobiologists and cosmologists Paul Davies and Charlie Lineweaver to suggest that cancer is driven by primitive genes that govern cellular cooperation (abstract), and which kick in when our more recently evolved genes that keep them in check break down. So, far from being rogue cells that mutate out of control, cancers are actually cells that revert to a more ancient level of programming, like booting in Safe Mode. The good news is this means cancers have only finite variation. Once we figure out the ancient genes, we'll know how it works. It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought."
giants (Score:3, Interesting)
It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought.
nanos gigantium humeris insidentes
Yeah Right. (Score:4, Insightful)
Astrobiologists doing cancer "research"? Half of the submission is written as if they had cancer already nailed down, while the rest of it implies that they merely had this great idea, while looking at the stars after smoking some of the good stuff. If there are no experiments, hard results, conclusive evidence, well pfew, it's not news that matter. I make up a dozen theories like this per day.
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[...] they merely had this great idea, while looking at Stargate after smoking some of the good stuff.
FTFY. They were probably discussing 'what if the ancient gene was real', and the rest followed naturally by means of said good stuff and some randomness... Indeed a fairly common conversation type for stoner-geeks. :)
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Re:Yeah Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
they merely had this great idea, while looking at the stars after smoking some of the good stuff.
Their entire "theory" boils down to this: "We think that the tumours that develop in cancer patients today take the same form as these simple cellular structures did more than a billion years ago,” he said. ("but we have no particular reason to believe that", he added quietly.)
There is simply no basis for their claim other than "cars are a means of transportation, planes are a means of transportation, so maybe cars are planes after they've landed". I mean, "cancers are loose aggregations of cells, early metazooans were probably loose aggregations of cells, so maybe cancers are early metazooans resurfacing in your body."
Everything we know about the detailed genetics of cancer--which is quite a lot--suggests this is nonsense. If this were the case we'd expect to see far more genetic similarity between cancers than we do, as the hypothesis implies ancient conserved mechanisms for which there is no sign in the genomics of cancer. Cancer is a diverse disease, and while we are making steady progress against it there are fundamental mechanisms that are still poorly understood because they are complicated. The role of various micro-RNAs in particular is only now becoming clear, for example.
The fundamental complexity of the disease is exactly what you would expect if it metazooan life was pulling off a complex and delicate balancing act that can go wrong in multiple ways, and humans had been subject to intense selective pressure for longer lives due to the advantage to a social primate with both representational and operational intelligence of having a few grandparents around in your kin-group. Human cancers are ferociously complex compared to most other species, which is exactly what you would not expect based on this hypothesis that all cancers in all species are pretty much similar at root.
Their "advice" to researchers to focus on what amount to tumour supressor genes would be important if this was 1990.
The genius here is all marketing, not science. They have managed to get an idiotic idea that has zero utility to anyone working on the genetics of cancer quite widely disseminated. That's pretty clever. I only wish the scientists who are in the trenches doing detailed experimental investigations of actual cancer mechanisms were half as good at promoting their thankless and difficult work as these clowns are. Their hypothesis would make a great science fiction story. Unfortunately, that's not the way they've chosen to promote it.
For the love of god, give it a rest (Score:2, Funny)
booting in Safe Mode.
Is it possible for you people to wipe your butts without using some half-assed, fallacious computer analogy? Is this all the bazaar has done for you?
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not so easy (Score:3)
The summary look like curing cancer is a matter of very simple solution. I doubt this.
Even if cancer behavior rely on primitive gene programming. There where billion years of incremental evolution build and re-factored over that, I firmly doubt it is a matter of turning on/off or stripping out some cytochrome block cancerous cells from forming/growing.
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Re:not so easy (Score:4, Insightful)
This is exactly the problem: our genes are like Windows, they just keep adding stuff and patching up the old code, and never start fresh. You never know what you'll break by patching the latest issue...
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Don't worry. We can cure cancer by injecting you with this Gene Patch. Wait... why are you turning blue?
You wish (Score:2)
Really, I wish it was even like any kind of modern code... even code from the Daily WTF.
It's actually a mess of spaghetti code, where some gene works by misusing another gene in perverse ways. And one gene ends up controlling hair color, blood clotting, fight-or-flight response, _and_ sensitivity to pain and anesthetics. And some parts are both code and data (in as much as you can call a bit of DNA either.) And, I kid you not, you actually have at least one bit of self-modifying code in your immune system.
(
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The summary look like curing cancer is a matter of very simple solution. I doubt this.
A small story:
The king summoned all of his scientists and told them he had a great idea how to beat the kingdom's sea-ferring enemies. "I suggest," he said "that when our enemies come with their ships, we lower the sea level by a few meters. This way all their ships will crush on the sea floor. When we raise the sea level again, all of their soldiers will drawn and we will win."
All the scientists said it was a great idea, but how the hell do you lower the sea level by a few meters?
"I don't know," replied th
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Besides, this hypothesis requires that you believe in evolution. As a firm believer that cancer was created by God on the 6th day, I can't accept that it will lead anywhere but to hell.
Crappy summary as usual. (Score:2)
"It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought."
Gee since I just lost my mother to cancer last month and have lost way to many friends to it I have to say that this is the STUPIDEST, MOST ARROGANT statement I have read in a very long time.
How long have we been trying to cure and prevent cancer? We have made a lot of progress to be sure but the task and effort passed mammoth decades ago.
I welcome any news about improved trea
Re:Crappy summary as usual. (Score:4, Insightful)
The arrogance is not present in the original source: they present their hypothesis, outline how it can be tested, and explain its potential impact on cancer research. The hyperbole and hubris comes from the author of the summary and the article, not the scientists. They only write of "new reasons for optimism".
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I am sure you are correct. That is why the title of my post was crappy summary as usual. Anyone educated and smart enough to be involved in this kind of work would probably be wise enough to make make such a stupid statement in writing.
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They only write of "new reasons for optimism".
Uh, no. They gave no experimental evidence. They propose a new, untestable theory, and say it gives "new reasons for optimism". I could say that tumors are made of blue ice cream and that gives "new reason for optimism". And, at least, my theory is falsifiable.
These "researchers" have nothing that would give "new reason for optimism". Do they propose new treatments? New approaches to destroy cells? No. They are arrogant. And, it has nothing to do with t
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if it were "simple", random chance should have stumbled across it over time, and THAT would spread through the population because it confers a survival advantage for your family/tribe
Not really. Cancer rarely occurs early in life. For most of human history, you would have died well before cancer had a chance to finish you off. Even now it mostly occurs late enough in life that it doesn't affect reproduction. Ergo, the evolutionary advantage would be weak-to-non-existent, meaning the mutations might have no better odds of spreading than what would be expected from pure chance.
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Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology... (Score:5, Informative)
The good news is this means cancers have only finite variation. Once we figure out the ancient genes, we'll know how it works. It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought.
We've already figured out how most cancer works. At a gross, generalized level you have oncogenes (genes responsible for driving growth) and tumor suppressor genes (genes responsible for regulating growth) when interrelated genes of both varieties break in a cell, it becomes a cancer. A detailed molecular understanding of how some cancers work have led to effective treatments (see: Imatinib [wikipedia.org], Tamoxifen [wikipedia.org] and Raloxifene [wikipedia.org]) but that's hardly been successfully translated to other cancers where the broken parts aren't as easily modulated. In fact, Raloxifene was developed specifically because Tamoxifen which inhibits an oncogene in breast tissue activated the same oncogene in uterine tissue. What 10 years of the human genome have taught us is that not all diseases are direct or simple breaks in genetic code and that not all diseases with known, simple breaks in the genetic code are as easily treatable as we might like.
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What one cancer learns cannot be passed on to the next generation of cancers in other patients
Of course not. That would be Lamarkism, like believing that if we cut off the cats tail, its future kittens will have no tail. That queery aside, what evidence is there for this conclusion about the complexity of combat?:
The good news is that this means combating cancer is not necessarily as complex as if the cancers were rogue cells evolving new and novel defence mechanisms within the body.
Even if their hypothesis is correct, that cancer involves the malfunctioning of a set of evolutionarily conserved genomic structures and processes, what evidence is there for concluding that combating cancer is not as going to be as complex as [something else we don't understand full
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Natural Selection and Cancer. (Score:4, Insightful)
Basically natural selection will be able to filter out any gene that affects the reproductive ability. Given the length of time, even extraordinarily minute differences will make a difference and eventually deleterious genes will be filtered out. But if some gene trades improved fitness at the reproductive stage for some serious cost to life at a later stage, that gene will never be filtered out. The extreme example is the trout that had traded it so much that it dies immediately after spawning. Its entire metabolism is structured to improve fitness before spawning to very serious inability to live after spawning.
Even if these guys were right, and with modern science you are able to find that one gene whose loss of function causes cancer, and they are able to fix it, all it means is you will not die of cancer, but will die of other geriatric diseases. Some of them are painful, some of them are embarrassing. But the most heart wrenching ones are those that trap a dead brain in a functioning body or a functioning brain in a dying body.
I wish science would concentrate on improving the quality of life when alive and allow both the body and the brain to die together painlessly.
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Cancer might resemble the kind of cells that eventually made the transition of prokaryotes to eukaryotes.
A cancer cell is a cell that has no regulated growth control, in that fashion it resembles all single-celled life- prokaryote or eukaryote, but that's where the resemblance ends. Cancer is not some exotic type of cell, it's quite simply a cell which lost or broke one or more communication pathways that allow the cell itself or other cells in a multicellular organism to direct its growth and differentiation. No theory surrounding the evolution of eukaryotic cells has anything to do with the reason cancer ce
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The problem with that assumption is that cancer is a condition that almost always affects organisms after their primary reproductive cycles have been completed. There are a few cancers that affect children and young adults but they are extremely rare.
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Cancer might resemble the kind of cells that eventually made the transition of prokaryotes to eukaryotes. But it is simplistic to say it is governed by just a few genes, so we should be able to handle it. Think about it, if these genes have escaped natural selection for 1 billion years, how hard it is going to be to fight them.
Up until very recently the vast majority of humans did not live long enough to see the onset of cancer, so natural selection didn't have a chance to play the part you're suggesting that it should/would have. Furthermore, most cancers occur later in life than when most humans reproduce (this was especially so prior to modern times). This prevents cancer from having the usual fitness detriment in relation to reproduction, providing an alternative explanation for why it hasn't been selected out.
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This prevents cancer from having the usual fitness detriment in relation to reproduction, providing an alternative explanation for why it hasn't been selected out.
It actually has been selected out to a great degree in humans, and this is one of the reasons why we live such astonishingly long lives. The average mammal lives about a billion of its own heartbeats. We live more than twice that.
This is also what makes human cancers so hard to cure. Unlike rats, which will get cancer from a dirty look, the cancers that make it past our defenses are seriously nasty.
Grandparents transmit culture, and having a few much older people in your kin group would be very signific
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Cancers need to grow blood vessels too (Score:5, Informative)
It's a nice theory, but cancers aren't completely self sufficient. They need to form blood vessels to grow any larger than a pin head and early sponge-like organisms certainly didn't have those.
http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/about-cancer/what-is-cancer/grow/how-a-cancer-gets-its-blood-supply [cancerhelp.org.uk]
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This needs to be moderated up more.
But:
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safe mode? (Score:5, Funny)
given that this article postulates that cancer cells have apparently been the default mode of cellular division for perhaps billions of years, and personal computers have only been around for 30 years, it would be more appropriate to say you sometimes need to boot your computer into cancer mode. that's a more appropriate analogy
Then we shouldn't kill it (Score:2, Troll)
If cancer is what life was like a billion years ago, then we should not be spending so much time, money, and effort to kill it. By pandering to our self-centered focus of survival and self-preservation, we could be preventing the next race of beings from evolving natually.
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Definition of Life and Cancer (Score:5, Funny)
Cancer: When some of the 4 billion cells decide to form a 'tea party'.
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Life: the decision of approximately 4 billion cells to be 'you' for a while.
Cancer: When some of the 4 billion cells decide to form a 'tea party'.
Depressed Living Teddy Bear: "Why am I here?"
Little girl: "For tea parties!"
Bear, desperate: "Is that all there is?"
-Supernatural
Can we define cancer? (Score:2)
Cancer covers quite a bit of biological territory and not all cancers are created equal. This seams to trivialize just how diverse our bodies are and discounts its ability to adapt. I mean cancer at it's core is actually the bodies attempt to adapt to a situation that has gone awry. I read somewhere the body creates cancer cells every day of your life but the immune system takes care of it naturally. When someone gets cancer it is because the immune system didn't catch it and it was allowed to multiply.
Windows (Score:3)
Windows isn't a virus, it's a cancer.
Ancient genes (Score:2)
I don't know about curing cancer but once we figure out the ancient genes we'll have access to all kinds of awesome technology. Let's get on this people!
Legacy code (Score:2)
This is certainly adds a new definition for the old term 'legacy code'.
In other words (Score:2)
It's more evolved than 4chan?
big deal (Score:2)
Cancer is (1) inability of the cell to keep sticking to the base + (2) inablity of the cell to not divide uncontrollably, both are closely related. If you have structured body of many eukaryotic cells you need your organs (2) to be contained and (1) not to mix
Early eukaryots were monocellular, so they neither have a need (1) to contain the growth (2) to stick to the base. And that is the simplest behavior of the cell: it grows until third party puts a stop to it, and it does not stick to anything, because s
Cure? (Score:2)
It is when you realize that no pharma company actually wants to cure cancer...
ancient genes? (Score:2)
Does Joe Flanigan know that he has cancer?
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Well there was that one time he was bitten by a rather nasty bug, who knows what that exposed him to....
Vitamin D and Coral Calcium (Score:2)
I thought Cancer was cured a lot time ago, and its the big pharmaceutical companies that have a conspiracy to keep it going for huge profits!
Wrong conclusion - it will never be easy to cure (Score:2)
Cancer is the natural state of cells. Non-cancer is a state our bodies have achieved through intricate command-and-control mechanisms. We are a colony of trillion individual living cells all working under a social contract that has them all sworn to celebacy and pinning all their hopes and dreams on the success or failure of a few eggs and sperm fired off into the beyond. All it takes is a breakdown in one frustrated cellular rebel saying "enough of this, I'm doing my own thing!" and you have a cancer.
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surely sometime within the next century or so we will have moved beyond biology
Whaaaa? Where did you get that idea? Also, do you really think that even if you copied your consciousness to a machine that it would still be you? It will be a copy, and "you" will die anyway. I saw someone once mention the idea of replacing neurons one at a time with digital equivalents.. that might work to retain your consciousness while moving away from biology, but it would be almost impossible to do..
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While we are technically a copy of our former selves it doesn't feel that way. If you could - without turning off the brain - take out each part, piece by piece and replace it with something so convincing that the brain accepted it as part of itself then you would never realise that you had become a robot.
However if you built a robot with all your memories, emotions, thoughts and personality then no matter how accurate it was there is no way to transfer the you-ness of you - the real you, the soul or whatev
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You're completely missing the concept of consciousness here. The copy may be convinced it has consciousness (and maybe it does - nobody can define consciousness so far, all an individual knows is that it experiences it), but it would be an entirely new consciousness that isn't being experienced by you. We're not talking about self worth or anything like that, we're simply talking about experience, sentience. If "you" is only going to live on in a separate copy, rather than replacing your brain piece by piec
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Suppose you can indeed build a magical perfect copy of yourself.
Well, which one are you ?
I guess none of the copies want to die
Now you make a better copy of yourself that is basically immortal
But you have to die in the process or to die later knowing that somehow "this other thing is -you-" how conforting, *you* are still going to die
So how do you want to die ?
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Still, I'm happy with my brain being replaced piece by piece, as I continue being me. If you create a copy and destroy the original, I will no longer be me. Me will be a different I. This I wants to stay in existence while it can. If you only think of yourself in terms of you external actions that's fine, you can be happy destroying your current consciousness and letting a different consciousness continue to be you. Of course if you believe in things like souls then you probably don't really care what state
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It doesn't make the current me unhappy, because it doesn't notice.
Re:wow (Score:4, Interesting)
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I'd rather, paradoxical though it may be, "die" in one form in order to not die in another, than just to die altogether.
I think this is probably even more narcissistic than just wanting to live forever - not caring that the current you won't be around to enjoy life and new experiences, but being happy knowing that an immortal copy of you will be forced indefinitely upon others.. of course I guess it's just letting your biological urges control your thinking, in the same way that a lot of people would die if they knew it would help their kids.
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Argh, I just ran out of mod points to give your post a +1.
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What you point out is a challenge of logic for human cognition but it doesn't negate the fact that we are humans and this is the way our cognition works.
I think it's time for a car analogy. If you replace parts of your car over the years, one by one, most of us would insist it's still the same car. If you go out tomorrow and buy another car of the same year, model, colour, etc, is it the same car? Most of us would say not. There is something within us that reacts this way to replacement. You might not like
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I'm quite happy with that, I'm talking about my apparently unbroken stream of consciousness, not the body that results in that consciousness. Creating a copy and destroying the current stream may not give any noticeable difference to outsiders, but it sure as hell would be annoying for the current me, if I were still around to be annoyed about it.
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One day this talk of the Singularity and downloading our minds into machines will be viewed the way we currently view alchemy and orgone healing boxes.
Futurists sell books. Warning: actual future may vary.
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One day this talk of the Singularity and downloading our minds into machines will be viewed the way we currently view alchemy and orgone healing boxes.
And people who think they can predict the future?
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Uh huh. You keep waiting for your cyberbrain there, Astro. Send me a postcard from Singularityville (currently a sweat lodge in Arizona that smells suspiciously of controlled substances).
I also predict that magical faeries won't power my flying car in... THE FUUUUUUUUTURE!
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Not to say you're wrong, just adding "We will see.".
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Yeah. Moon shot. Magical technological singularity. *Totally* the same thing.
Hey, I know going against the geekverse versions of astrology and homeopathy is heretical, but a man's got to speak his convictions. ;-)
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this is awesome. less permutations of cancer = more chance of me living to be 400 years old! here's hopin!
Are you hoping to turn into some kind of Leonard Betts?
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Are you hoping to turn into some kind of Leonard Betts?
I'm thinking more along the lines of Lazarus Long.
mod up! (Score:2)
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Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) (Score:5, Insightful)
That web scam's putative mechanism for DCA activity is that cancer cells have completely inactive mitochondria? Are you fucking kidding me? Do you even know what a mitochondrion does?
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Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) (Score:4, Informative)
Also chemo and radiation work extremely well for certain types of cancer, and work *precisely* because they affect cancerous cells far more readily then ordinary body cells (specifically: they induce damage in cells engaged in replication in the process of duplicating their DNA - cancer is doing this all the time, whereas most of your body is not replicating at any given time. It's why your hair falls out - the cells are engaged in aggressive replication constantly, and so are most affected).
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Do you even know what a mitochondrion does?
They give you force powers, Duh!
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The DCA Site website was put up by laymen to pool together scarce information due to the lack of knowledge available at the time what research was available from corporate or academic sources.
You'll find similar inaccuracies in exact terminology or phrasing in the laymen comments on The DCA Site as you can find in laymen comments in Slashdot. I doubt that the intent was to convey that the mitochondria was completely disabled, only that an important function of the mitochondria, the ability to signal time f
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Aerobic respiration, which most microorganisms and tumor cells don't do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_effect [wikipedia.org]
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That web scam's putative mechanism for DCA activity is that cancer cells have completely inactive mitochondria?
While this guy is clearly a nut, there are some cancers whose preferred metabolic pathway (aerobic glycolysis) is interfered with by DCA. This is a case where you need to not (completely) dismiss an idea because its promoters contain a large number of ignorant nutcases.
If I were a conspiracy theorist I'd suggest that the large number of nuts promoting DCA is a stealth campaign by Big Pharma to discredit the drug, but I've worked closely enough with Big Pharma to be fairly sure that is well outside their re
UCLA now using DCA in cancer trials (Score:2)
http://clinicaltrialsfeeds.org/clinical-trials/show/NCT01029925 [clinicaltrialsfeeds.org]
= 9J =
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There is almost no funding for this drug study due to it being un-patentable despite quite encouraging results, and reasonably acceptable and reversible side-effects.
Universities do all kinds of unpatentable research. Whereas a company looks to patent a product to make money, universities look to release research in order to earn prestige, which means more money.
(As a side note, companies can make quite a profit off of prestige as well. Prestige buys a company trust of a brand name. Brand name recognition goes a long way towards profit for a company)
So, in conclusion, your theory is full of shit.
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Patents Over Patients
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/opinion/01moss.html?_r=1 [nytimes.com]
Patents Over Patients
By RALPH W. MOSS
State College, Pa.
WE could make faster progress against cancer by changing the way drugs are developed. In the current system, if a promising compound can’t be patented, it is highly unlikely ever to make it to market — no matter how well it performs in the laboratory. The development of new cancer drugs is crippled as a result.
The reason for this problem is that bringing a new dru
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How about posting an article from someone who ISN'T already drinking the DCA coolaid?
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Porn for mitochondria. Who would have guessed??
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I don't mind negative comments, it's part of the layman peer-review process. If the information is worthwhile on Slashdot, it'll usually pick up a mix of knee-jerk negative reactions, knee-jerk positive reactions, a few funny comments (which I enjoy the most), and some thoughtful opinions after some reflection (that we can then learn from).
"It seems that DCA may be promising, although you probably should have included links to more objective websites. The study appears to be legitimate research, but a huma
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Well, the Safe Mode video driver does feel somewhat ancient at least. 256 colors and screen blitting you can time on a stopwatch.
Anyway, the analogy is totally ridiculous as is. Safe Mode actually performs a desirable function (when needed) within the system. I don't think the same can be said for cancer.
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The life as a whole it doesn't perform a valuable function, but the individual cells that turn cancerous might have been about to die from some other cause when they revert. And that makes sense, cancer is made more likely by genetic damage, perhaps the cells are becoming cancerous when there is some piece or another of genetic code that is damaged beyond repair so the cell reverts to a simpler set of instructions that perform a similar role. A set which, unfortunately, lacks such handy things as communic
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You are a mindless jerk.
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