Colleague Comes Forward To Defend Anthrax Suspect 164
Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times writes about Henry S. Heine, a former Army microbiologist who worked for years with Bruce E. Ivins, whom the FBI has blamed for the anthrax letter attacks that killed five people in 2001. Heine told a 16-member National Academy of Sciences panel reviewing the FBI's scientific work on the investigation that he believes it is impossible that the deadly spores could have been produced undetected in Ivins's laboratory, as the FBI asserts. Heine told the panel that producing the quantity of spores in the letters would have taken at least a year of intensive work using the equipment at the army lab, an effort that would not have escaped colleagues' notice. Lab technicians who worked closely with Ivins have told Heine they saw no such work. Heine adds that, in addition, the biological containment measures where Ivins worked were inadequate to prevent the spores from floating out of the laboratory into animal cages and offices. 'You'd have had dead animals or dead people.' Asked why he is speaking out now, almost two years after Ivins's suicide, Heine says that Army officials had prohibited comment on the case, silencing him until he left the government laboratory. Although Heine does not dispute that there was a genetic link between the spores in the letters and the anthrax in Ivins's flask, Heine says samples from the flask were widely shared. 'Whoever did this is still running around out there. I truly believe that.'"
Anthrax... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Anthrax... (Score:5, Informative)
...is generally not that deadly. My uncle used to deal with cattle with black leg all the time. This story is ONCE AGAIN blown out of proportion--thanks, FBI.
Depends. I'm not a microbiologist but you know there are different strains (89 I think [wikipedia.org]) of anthrax and it is delivered many different ways. I believe the concern here is spore anthrax or aerosol anthrax which is probably a bit more problematic than black leg. If you think it isn't deadly, there are about a hundred graves in Russia you could visit for an interview [wikipedia.org].
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The Anthrax found in the letters was allowed to float around in the air in crowded places, too. How many people died?
This guy is giving second-hand and speculative "evidence", and it's not holding up to scrutiny.
Re:Anthrax... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure "this guy" is more qualified than you to make the call.
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look up argumentum ad verecundiam, then come back and apologize
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No, you are not getting an apology.
"This Guy" worked with the deceased. He's one of the few who can actually have a say here.
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The Anthrax found in the letters was allowed to float around in the air in crowded places, too. How many people died?
This guy is giving second-hand and speculative "evidence", and it's not holding up to scrutiny.
Enough to be noticed.
Re:Anthrax... (Score:4, Informative)
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Sure they would. But the other 299,999,950 of us need to decide if such attacks warrant as much attention as, say, car accidents.
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Yeah, all 5 of them out of a country of 330,000,000.
An Anthrax Epidemic?
Killed in car accidents 42,116*
Killed by the common flu 20,000*
Killed by murders 15,517*
Killed in airline crashes
(of 477m passenger trips) 120 (1)
Killed by lightning strikes 90*
Killed by Anthrax 5
(1) Annual average over 19 year period.
*Average annual totals in United States.
While their deaths were tragic, putting it in perspective puts death by Anthrax WAY down the list of things to really worry about. Somewhere way d
Re:Anthrax... (Score:4, Insightful)
Who said you should spend your time worrying about it?
Re:Anthrax... (Score:5, Insightful)
The "blown out of proportion" aspect of the story was the "threat of terrorism". The anthrax attacks hit the Capitol at the same time legislators were being pressured to pass the PATRIOT Act. The anthrax attacks delivered the unspoken message to our representatives that "nobody is safe from terrorists".
Re:Anthrax... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not saying that Vice President Cheney was involved in any way, but you've got to admit that his agenda, formed long before September of 2001, got a big boost from the attacks.
Obviously though, he's far too nice of a guy to ever do anything underhanded.
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Cheney is such a horrible human being that it's surprising something hasn't leaked yet.
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Obviously though, he's far too nice of a guy to ever do anything underhanded.
Absolutely. He's the kind of classy guy that will shoot you in the face, not in the back.
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The difference, of course, being that lightning, tornadoes, hurricanes and, to some degree, car accidents are things we have little to no control over. Just because only 5 people died from the anthrax attack did not mean (at the time) that's all there would be. Someone had access to a lab capable of making a weaponized version of anthrax, was doing so AND had used it. You d
Re:Anthrax... (Score:4, Informative)
That stuff your uncle used to deal with wasn't a weaponized aerosol either.
Even a very dedicated and professional group couldn't properly weaponize anthrax: The Japanese Aum sect, which later opted for sarin gas to attack the Tokio Subway, tried that twice and didn't kill anyone with it.
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...is generally not that deadly. My uncle used to deal with cattle with black leg all the time. This story is ONCE AGAIN blown out of proportion--thanks, FBI.
This isn't wild anthrax that cows get from the prairie, this is anthrax that was designed to facilitate infection by the easiest means possible (breathing). I'm not a scientists, but this strain came directly from an Army research facility designed to research and produce biological weapons. I'm pretty sure it isn't the same as naturally occurring anthrax.
On top of that according to Wikipedia the FBI closed the case on the 2001 Anthrax Scares back in February http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_att [wikipedia.org]
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There is a difference between anthrax that occurs naturally and anthrax specifically designed for use in biowarfare in a government lab. The strains of bioweapons that are kept in bioweapons labs are orders of magnitude more resistant and more deadly than anything you'll ever encounter on the face of this planet.
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088286/ [imdb.com]
Silence != Truth (Score:5, Interesting)
Army officials had prohibited comment on the case, silencing him until he left the government laboratory.
I'm sure he told the Army & FBI about this. Sounds like anthrax killed a scapegoat named Bruce E. Ivins to me.
Re:Silence != Truth (Score:5, Interesting)
This story never made sense.
The way I see it there are three possibilities. When the anthrax events were taking place, you'll recall that this was high-grade weaponized anthrax containing silica, that indicates a high level of technical competence. So that leads to the first possibility, a sufficiently competent person can, on their own, weaponize anthrax from a culture. This, to me, is the most frightening, but also the least likely possibility. If one person could do it, someone else would have. I don't doubt that there are sufficiently motivated and financed terror groups who would have repeated the procedure if this were possible. This stuff was supposedly (although there are contradictory statements) better than the soviet weaponized anthrax.
The second possibility is that Ivins had nothing to do with this, except possibly supplying the culture to a third party - a third party who stopped the attacks for some unknown reason.
The third - and this is where I put on my tinfoil hat - is that the US maintains stores of weapons grade anthrax in contradiction to our biological warfare treaty obligations that someone, probably Ivins, pilfered.
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you'll recall that this was high-grade weaponized anthrax containing silica, that indicates a high level of technical competence
There was a lot of press initially about the anthrax being high end weapons grade with silica. The truth is, the initial reports of silica are very dubious. That highlights one of the issues in a case like this - you don't even know what basic facts to believe. Almost all of the evidence against Ivins is circumstantial and claims by the government haven't always held up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks#Silicon_content_too_high [wikipedia.org]
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The third - and this is where I put on my tinfoil hat - is that the US maintains stores of weapons grade anthrax in contradiction to our biological warfare treaty obligations that someone, probably Ivins, pilfered.
That actually seems to be the most likely. A ban means you do it only in secret and keep it small, not that you actually stop doing it.
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I'd agree, but I'd think if we were running a covert bio-weapons program there'd be pretty tight controls on it - tight enough that if some got mailed to a congressman we'd get the right guy the first time.
This whole thing stinks, but I still don't buy the even more conspiratorial we did it to pass the patriot act - does anyone really believe that a few people getting sick on September 20th 2001 is the real impetus behind patriot?
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quote: The third - and this is where I put on my tinfoil hat - is that the US maintains stores of weapons grade anthrax in contradiction to our biological warfare treaty obligations that someone, probably Ivins, pilfered.
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Spot on! I think that is exactly what could have happened, as all else just doesn't make any sense.
Silly conspiracy theories like "Dick Cheney" did it, overlook the lynching party that would have happened on Capitol Hill, would that have ever come out.
Its not like those la
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Article One of the Biological Weapons Convention, to which we are a party, is, "Never under any circumstances to acquire or retain biological weapons."
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Re:Silence != Truth (Score:5, Insightful)
It really makes me wonder if overzealous nuts in the Bush regime could have caused anthrax to be let lose to justify our military actions. I have no trust at all after things like WaterGate and the arms for drugs crap that went on under republican administrations.
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First, I'm not a liberal. My sister describes me as right wing, probably because I'm pro-gun, and anti-regulation (except for places where the free market has already had a chance to regulate themselves and failed). But then, the neo-cons consider me a liberal nut because I don't believe in government regulation (get the government the he
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So they aren't you either. In a discussion on crimes committed by the sitting presidents, we find that Republicans are over-represented, and you bring up Obama having "many questionable, jackass political moves" as a counter example to my accusations of treason against Republican presidents. Yes, treason and making poor political moves are *almost* the same thing.
And I am an independent moderate. I would love for there to
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You say "Democrat presidents" instead of "Democratic presidents" and you have the nerve to complain about someone else not capitalizing "Republican"? Whose political bias is blatantly obvious?
suicide? (Score:3, Interesting)
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People kill themselves in a manner of horrific ways.
Years ago there was a guy who filled his toilet with gasoline, drop his pants, sat on it and then lit it on fire.
Suicide by fire is pretty painful...for a little while.
Well, ok it was an attempt suicide as the guy did live, but my point is valid.
People use chemicals that are very nasty, drown, and a variety of other ways that make people go "why the fuck would you do it that way?"
Even slitting you wrist is more painful then jumping off a bridge... assuming
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Thanks so much.
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That girl wasn't a trained biologist and had no idea what she was in for with APAP induced liver failure. Nobody who knows what APAP will do to you would choose to go that way, unless they really wanted a slow, painful death.
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The codeine would mask the pain and induce death itself. A "trained biologist" would know that.
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50 pills * 30 mg = 1.5 grams of codeine.
LD 50 for codeine is 0.8 grams.
You won't feel a thing. Except maybe the itching.
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Do you have any idea how little codeine is in those pills? Even downing more than enough for the APA to kill you wouldn't result in significant pain reduction. It wouldn't do squat to alleviate the pain of liver failure.
As logion said, codeine is a joke. Tylenol with codeine is what they hand out when people think they need something stronger than tylenol, but they don't. If they actually need something stronger than tylenol, they will get something with oxycodone in it.
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I was going to put hydrocodone in, but that's just codeine and oxycodone mixed, and I didn't want to confuse the issue. People here in the US know oxycodone from a certain radio personality who was heavily addicted to the stuff, so, it was better for the sake of example, I think.
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I guess I can understand that. Best to keep it simple, what with dealing with someone who thinks that the codeine in T3 would mask the pain from an APAP overdose.
There was codeine in Terminator 3?
Wow, you're right, that stuff is useless. It didn't do a thing to relieve the pain of watching that movie!
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Tylenol+codeine has about 30 mg in it. That's a joke dosage.
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You see, noone who really wants to die OD's on tylenol because it's a horrible way to die (though something like taking some monk's hood is probably even worse). You don't try to off yourself with tylenol unless either you want to *punish* yourself, you don't know any better, or you are doing it to get attention (which since it takes a while gives them plenty of time to "save" you).
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...and probably falls under "didn't know any better" or "doing it to get attention" (and accordingly "killing yourself" in a manner that is likely to fail).
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Never happens?
I know someone personally who did it. Really nice girl. Pretty, too. Took a bunch of Tylenol and killed her liver dead.
Modded informative? Mods on crack.
--
BMO
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Like some previous comments indicate, a biologist would know that a Tylenol OD would be a painful way to go, unlike the 2700 Canadians in your article.
Your notion that liver failure is nasty relative to firearms illustrates the point those posters are trying to make well. I was an 0311/8541 in the USMC during a particularly active time in USMC history, so I'm familiar with the variety of damage dealt by firearms. If I were to decide to off myself, I wouldn't do it with a firearm, for sure.
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Tylenol + Codeine only has about 30 mg of codeine. A minimum lethal dose of codeine is at about 800 mg. That means he would have had to swallow almost 30 pills to die. As the GP said, that's a ridiculous way to suicide.
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I agree with you. My post was purely to deal with the anonymous above who was trying to claim that it could have been the codeine to do it. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous that claim would be as tylenol+codeine has such a small dosage amount versus what is a lethal adult dose.
Or maybe its maybelline (Score:2)
No kidding. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Transparency, this is not.
Can you say inside job? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a case that will never be solved because whoever it was in the government that did it, has covered their tracks.
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They blamed the dead guy before he killed himself.
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Re: Can you say inside job? (Score:2)
They blamed the dead guy before they made it look like he killed himself.
I don't generally subscribe to conspiracy theories, but I thought it was *very* strange that they would cremate the suspect in a high-profile national security case without an autopsy, after he had apparently killed himself.
providing historical accuracy (Score:2)
Just to clarify,
Seth
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Just to clarify,
Seth
I don't get it. Are we now calling into question whether or not Bruce Ivens was male? That would be a twist - especially to "his" widow and children!
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They had blamed several guys already, this one, was the one who got depressed and killed himself. Of course, that depends on your definition of blamed. No charges has been filed. People had just been investigated and labeled "person of interest".
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Re:Can you say inside job? (Score:4, Informative)
So a strain of Anthrax, developed by the US Military,
No.
A strain of Anthrax with similar genetic code as one being developed by the military.
The security around the anthrax at that time wasn't what anyone would call 'high'.
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The security around the anthrax at that time wasn't what anyone would call 'high'.
Or alternatively they were and this was the problem. ;)
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Pretty much everything the FBI did was entirely for show, so they could knowingly let the real perpetrator(s) continue to remain at large.
The Wrong Man - Hatfill (Score:4, Informative)
The Atlantic has a really interesting article about the FBI's multi-year investigation of Stephen Hatfill for the same crime.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/04/the-wrong-man/8019 [theatlantic.com]
That's two... (Score:5, Informative)
So that is two men the US Government accused of the Anthrax attacks, one of which killed himself and the second almost did. Neither with any real evidence other than vague coincidences. Just goes to show that when the pressure to solve an investigation goes to such extremes mistakes are bound to happen.
I think we should ask about the state's method. In one case they intentionally harassed a suspect by releasing his name to the media, conducting multiple searches, and following him around 24/7 and even having local law enforcement arrest him multiple times on silly charges.
In any other country that has some kind of independent police watchdog you would have consequences but in the US where law enforcement seem to be above the law and "investigate" (ha ha) themselves they just get worse and worse year after year.
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Government jobs *don't* have poor pay in comparison to industry.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm [usatoday.com]
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Army investigation was botched (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone is assuming that all that weaponized anthrax came from the lab by its genetic makeup. Its possible only a sample was taken, and "mass produced" elsewhere. Yeah, it takes "special equipment", but its not like you need nuclear tools or there's only 7 machines in the world like it. Like the Kennedy assassination, and 9/11, we're never going to get the complete truth out of this.
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Well, I COULD have said UNIQUE tools made specifically for the handling of nuclear materials and calibration of nuclear power related machinery. But nuclear tools conveys all that detail in two words, and most people were able to pick that up. Sorry, I choose not to laboriously structure my posts to ensure every cretin will understand them.
this story is made for paranoid schizophrenics (Score:1, Flamebait)
it screams conspiracies and secret government involvement
but real life is not a hollywood movie, occam's razor is unfortunately mundane and boring. the simplest, lamest, conspiracy-free explanation is the truth
but flame on paranoid schizophrenics: this story is made for you. wig out and bug out while you can
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so (Score:2)
what did you think of last night's episode of "fringe"?
isn't it great the truth is finally coming out?
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The simplest explanation is that a highly trained and successful microbiologist found the time and equipment to culture, weaponize, and distribute anthrax in his spare time while still maintaining his normal duties without arising any suspicion from his peers, and then proceeded to kill himself in just about the slowest, most inefficient, and most painful way possible.
Now I'm not saying there's no way it's true, but it smells fishy enough to warrant looking further into in my opinion.
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You forgot to mention that Cipro was distributed to "people who matter" in the government weeks in advance, and nobody is willing to explain this or even ask why it was done.
Re:this story is made for paranoid schizophrenics (Score:5, Insightful)
No it screams government incompetence. Someone sent the samples. The FBI jumped to conclusions and harassed a man to death that they thought was a suspect.
It's not the first time. Remember Richard Jewell [wikipedia.org]? After he saved countless lives by noticing a suspicious backpack and evacuating the area around it in Centennial Olympic Park, he was first hailed as a hero. The FBI investigated him for no other reason than he fit the profile of a lone bomber despite having no background with bomb making. What's worse is that he FBI leaked that he was a suspect. After a trial in the media and having all his possessions thoroughly search by the FBI, it wasn't until months later that a US Attorney (and not the FBI) declared he was no longer a suspect. Years later Eric Rudolph admitted he planted the bombs.
Alex Jones, is that you? (Score:2)
I didn't know Alex Jones was a slashdot member.
Glenn Greenwald (Score:3, Informative)
They destroyed Hatfill (Score:5, Informative)
Everyone says their friend is innocent (Score:2, Insightful)
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Usually they base that on the person not "seeming" to be that sort of person rather than on an objective look at the logistics that would be involved. This is quite a different matter.
paging Dr. Phillip Zack (Score:1, Informative)
Anthrax cover-up on line one !
Thi is the second time . . . (Score:2)
They smeared and squeezed Steven Hatfill for several years. Ashcroft accused him publicly. They shadowed him 24-7. He lost all work and most friends. He is innocent.
The only reason he didn't commit suicide from the harassment was that, "If I would've killed myself, I would've been automatically judged by the press and the FBI to be guilty."
Don't take my word for it, read it here [theatlantic.com].
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Not a compelling argument. (Score:1)
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The argument wasn't about whether or not he "knew" the accused. The argument is that he knows what would be involved in doing what the accused was accused of doing. He says it was impossible that the accused could have done what he did without being noticed. I imagine it would be like the equivalent of trained chemists noticing whether or not one of their colleagues was cooking up kilograms of MDMA over in the corner of the lab.