Indian Military Hopes to Weaponize the Searing "Ghost Pepper" 267
coondoggie writes "The military in India is looking to weaponize the world's hottest chili, the bhut jolokia or 'ghost pepper,' according to a number of news outlets. The Bhut Jolokia chili pepper from Assam, India is no ordinary pepper. In tests first conducted by the New Mexico State University in 2008 and subsequently confirmed by Guinness World records and others, the Bhut Jolokia reached over one million Scoville heat units, while the next hottest, the Red Savina Habenero, clocks in at a mere 577,000. Scoville units are a universally accepted measure of chili hotness."
OK ... (Score:5, Funny)
Scoville units are a universally accepted measure of chili hotness
I thought SCOville was universally accepted to be a litigious outhouse?
Re:OK ... (Score:4, Informative)
Technically correct, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Modern expressions of pungency in terms of Scoville units set pure capsaicin at either 15,000,000 or 16,000,000, and use HPLC to establish concentration of same (and related compounds). A Scoville rating is then set based on the concentration(s) measured.
So, knowing the reference standard, the measurements are actually quite objective.
Nobody, as far as I know, uses taste testers anymore.
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Meaning that they take the fraction of capsicum and multiply by 15 million. It would make more sense just to give the fraction rather than copying the terminology of an obsolete subjective test, but I guess saying a pepper is 7% capsicum just doesn't sound as kewl as "one million scovilles!"
I'm no expert on these things (I like my food bland), but it seems to me that the fraction of capsicum is at best a rough measure of hotness. Physical and chemical interactions would have a big effect on how much capsicu
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What I don't get is why they're focusing on capsaicin. Just because it's well known? Resiniferatoxin activates the same receptor (TRPV1), but 3-4 orders of magnitude more.
Re:Technically correct, but... (Score:4, Informative)
My slightly more informed guess is perhaps because RTX isn't found in peppers.
Just a wild guess though, but I would assume that since there is no RTX in peppers it would prevent them from measuring RTX in peppers.
RTX comes from a leafy Moroccan plant similar to poison-ivy. Capsaicin is the primary TRPV1 antagonist found in peppers (the others found in peppers are nowhere near as potent or plentiful), thus capsaicin is the chemical to measure. Can't use it as a measure if it isn't there. Duh.
Re:Technically correct, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm no expert on these things (I like my food bland), but it seems to me that the fraction of capsicum is at best a rough measure of hotness.
It varies from plant to plant, but you can get an average that is pretty accurate.
It would make more sense just to give the fraction rather than copying the terminology of an obsolete subjective test, but I guess saying a pepper is 7% capsicum just doesn't sound as kewl as "one million scovilles!"
That would actually be a hell of a lot less useful. For one thing, nobody knows how to equate 1% capsaicin to a relative hotness. What does that mean? It's like temperature - our local temperature is a fraction of sunlight absorbed by the earth, along with a boost caused by atmospheric retention factors (greenhouse effect and clouds). So why don't we say "it's nice out, 85% today"? Or "Man it was hot yesterday, must have b
Pepper Spray (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Pepper Spray (Score:4, Funny)
No,
They are attaching blenders to the backs of troops and hooking up pumps to spray it at the enemy.
Wind changes are a bitch with this weapon.
Re:Pepper Spray (Score:4, Funny)
To summ up your post:
It's not pepper spray, it's sprayed pepper.
Really?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They should be using Resiniferatoxin, it's significantly more potent than capsaicin. Of course, that isn't found in peppers...
The only down-side I see is it actually doesn't cause any physical damage except to pain receptors. so anybody who has been hit with RTX poison gas recovers and comes back the next day feeling absolutely no pain. If you use it on someone, you'd better kill them or you've just created a super soldier!
Military Application (Score:2, Funny)
Screw invading Iraq, next time do India. Don't forget the nachos though!
Indeed. (Score:2)
There is something else I've weaponized, but it won't give you that searing sensation...
Not needed? (Score:5, Funny)
From past experience I can recommened the development of a chicken Vindaloo bomb. It will cause injuries when dropped then again about 24 hours later.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually I meant more like 6-8 hours
Re:Not needed? (Score:5, Funny)
And here I was thinking more like 15 minutes.
But seriously, weaponized Indian food, aside from being redundant, has got to be banned by some kind of international treaty.
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I'll be wearing my full-body Lager-suit. Bring it on!
Not the Next Hottest (Score:3, Interesting)
The next hottest down would be the closely-related Dorset Naga, which is around 900k - 1M scovilles.
But that's if you believe the Scoville scale, which is a subjective measurement of capsaicin content. I've had sauces that advertise a 250k rating that don't seem as hot as some 50k stuff. Makers seem to artifically inflate their ratings all the time, and how the heat hits you can change a lot, too. I've never had the oppertunity to try a Dorset Naga myself, but I've heard they don't have much heat until about 20 minutes later (at which time you might have already had quite a few, popping them like candy).
Re:Not the Next Hottest (Score:5, Informative)
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Hugh, that's pretty cool. Does that mean that if they ever develop a quantitative measure of insect stinginess, they'll name the scale after Schmidt [wikipedia.org]?
Cus that's one heck of a subjective scale. You gotta love some of his descriptions. A yellowjacket sting is "Hot and smoky, almost irreverent." Irreverent?! I'd say any fuckin bug that bites or stings me is being irreverent, and I can't see how pain can relate to reverence... I can imagine you saying irreverent things as a result of pain, but to describe p
Capsaicin is not the only part to it (Score:2)
There are some peppers (i.e. what we in Mexico call pimiento morrón -- Paprika or sweet pepper, depending on whom you ask) that have _very_ high capsaicin levels, but is completely non-hot, at least to our standards (I know that even Argentinians use it for salads, and you can't get any more non-spicy than Argentinians ;-) ).
Gas! Gas! Gas! (Score:2)
They could try weaponizing extra-spicy Chana Masala too, but that might violate the Chemical Weapons Convention.
Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX (Score:5, Informative)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kO7MlHgJLA
Hopefully that's the right link.
There's a burger in TX that uses this pepper called the Four Horsemen Burger. As of the taping of this episode of Man Vs Food, only three people had managed to finish one in 25 minutes, with an additional 5 minutes of waiting without liquids. The host of the show became number 4, though it looked like he wasn't going to get past even the first bite.
Isn't that illegal (internationally) if a weapon causes this much pain and suffering?
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I bet I could eat it in 25 minutes without any liquids for an additional 5 minutes after. BRING IT ON!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Considering that Pepper spray is considered a chemical weapon and is banned under the Chemical Weapons Convention (which India signed & ratified). I'd assume that this would fall under the same ban.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Weapons_Convention [wikipedia.org]
Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX (Score:5, Insightful)
Article 1.5 prohibits the use of riot control agents in warfare, of which pepper spray is one. It's the catchall. Article 2.9 permits riot control agents for law enforcement.
In other words, in war they have to shoot you dead or blow you up, none of these more humane methods to bring you under control. Way to go international treaty!! ;)
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Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX (Score:4, Interesting)
I make Naga Burgers using these peppers:
Ground beef (120g (1/4 pound) is normal.)
Mustard ("stone ground" with seeds): about 1.5 oz (3 tablespoons).
10-12 drops Blair's Ultra Death. Other hot sauce may be used, but it should contain Naga Jolokia peppers. Otherwise it's not a Naga Burger, is it?
1-3 Naga Jolokia (AKA Bhut Jolokia) peppers, minced finely.
Crushed black peppercorns.
Mix beef, mustard, and hot sauce together. Once consistently mixed, form into a patty. Press the crushed black pepper into the patty to coat the surface (like for steak a poivre [wikipedia.org]). Grill or pan-broil quickly at high temperature to sear the outside & cook the inside to medium-rare. Resulting burger should be quite hot.
That burger they just put the peppers on top, not sure how much it would affect the flavour.
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I was under the impression that ground beef had to be thoroughly cooked. Is this only true for certain cases then?
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"Steak" is, by definition, the opposite of "ground meat".
A sustained internal temperature of about 145F makes for medium rare steaks, but it's likely that they hit 155 for at least 15 seconds towards the end.
That's false. If the internal temperature rises to 155, the steak is no longer rare. That's why reading the internal temperature gives you an accurate measure of doneness in the first place. The temperature alters the proteins, and it happens gradually as the temperature rises (this is why the color changes, as well as the texture). With beef steaks the internal contamination risk is extremely low, making rare steaks perfectly fine. With ground b
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Now that's a lot of seriously unhealthy-looking people.
Re:Four Horsemen burger of San Antonio, TX (Score:5, Funny)
In India it's a weapon, in Texas it's a condiment. Yeah, that sounds about right. ;)
Cross-culinary comparison (Score:2, Insightful)
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Logical progression (Score:2, Funny)
Funny videos (Score:4, Informative)
Eating raw Jolokia is a source of some mildly entertaining videos. [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
There's also this entertaining reading [livejournal.com], entitled "THE DAY MY ARSE DIED". Weird thing is, the guy looks just like me when I had a beard, and I ate a phall many, many years ago. It brought back some painful memories. :-)
Countermeasures (Score:2)
In this case "the goggles do something"...
Crisis (Score:3, Funny)
Is this needed? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Cheaper, possibly less infrastructure needed (in terms of refining capacity, etc)
Also sends some wealth out to the farming areas where these are grown.
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Not to mention, some sauces such as Dave's Ultimate Insanity (which I had to sign a waiver to purchase), Blair's 3am, etc, are already pushing food additive properties into the multi-million scoville units.
~X
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(which I had to sign a waiver to purchase)
That's just for marketing purposes, not to satisfy any legal requirement.
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One spritz and you're south of the border! MMmmmm, incapacitating.
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... "5,000,000 to 5,300,00 million scovilles."
number fail?
No, but please note that this wide range estimate may include the extended Scoville family.
Not military grade... (Score:2, Informative)
I can't wait to taste this in a batch of chili.
WTF, pure Capsaicin not good enough? (Score:4, Interesting)
Is it actually cheaper for them to use the local grown pepper with a variable yield than just using the pure substance with a controlled yield?
The article says they want to use it for troops in cold areas. This scares me. It heavily implies that some moron in charge has no understanding of science. Just because it tastes hot doesn't mean it'll help avoid hypothermia in the slightest. (In fact, they are more likely to succumb to hypothermia if they try to 'reduce' the 'heat' from those peppers by taking off clothes or drinking cold liquids or sucking snow.)
I'm going to throw out a guess that this isn't about the effectiveness of the pepper, but rather a homegrown movement to use a local product (in an inferior form) rather than a possibly foreign product. Sometimes the politicians in India are know to do stupid things like that.
Come to think of it, sometimes US politicians do the same thing...
(Buy American! Even if it's a piece of crap that costs three times as much as the one made in Canada, or where-ever.)
One last thing, don't forget that exposure to high doses of Capsaicin can seriously mess you up, and in some extreme cases, kill.
(For example, gassing someone who has asthma.)
Re: (Score:2)
Where do you think they get pure capsaicin?
Re: (Score:2)
It's not difficult normalize the capsaicin content in the process of extraction, therefore there is nothing inherently inferior about taking this direction. Most herbal extracts specified that the active parts are normalized to X% +- a bit. Green tea extract would be a good example.
You could perhaps argue that synthesis is cheaper or whatnot, but you must compare the abundant farmland and no shortage of people to grow them vs having an insdustrial plant and appropriately trained personnel, and so forth.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say this doesn't exactly break new ground.
Sorry, but why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I must be missing something here:
1) I'm pretty sure it's a banned weapon militarily speaking.
2)Who cares which pepper the capsaicin came from!? How would this be any different than any of the current commercial pepper sprays/balls/bombs?
Re:Sorry, but why? (Score:4, Interesting)
2)Who cares which pepper the capsaicin came from!? How would this be any different than any of the current commercial pepper sprays/balls/bombs?
You don't have to be a chemical engineer to understand that the process of extracting the capsaicin costs money. In theory, you are right, it doesn't matter where it comes from. But if you can get it at high concentrations without much processing, apart from simple drying and grinding (which would be necessary preparatory steps also for the extraction of capsaicin by pentane or some such solvent), then there is no reason why not use it in that form. Besides, pure capsaicin would be too strong and too expensive to be used directly, and would have to be diluted and perhaps mixed into a support material, such as calcium carbonate or such.
Re: (Score:2)
The hippies will be happy knowing that they are getting doused with organic free trade capsicum rather than some polluting lab created capsicum.
Pepper spray is torturous. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Pepper spray is torturous. (Score:4, Funny)
quit being such a wuss
Re: (Score:2)
Allright. That’s one spray of pepper for you then.
(yells) Waiter! One spray of pepper for table #31602294! And make it extra long!
(Monty Python style screaming woman from the kitchen:) Incoming!
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I've been in a bar where someone pepper-sprayed somebody else and the place cleared out in minutes. I'm asthmatic but it's mainly allergy induced, and I was coughing like crazy and I couldn't see because my eyes were stinging and watering like crazy. I wasn't even sprayed directly, it was just in the air. At first I didn't know what was happening until I got outside and my mouth felt like it was on fire.
Not fun for about 5-10 minutes until everything was more or less back to normal. After that, I couldn't i
Re: (Score:2)
I was at our local police college not too long ago. I thought that the pepper spray was deliciously spicy and that was about it, plenty of other people like myself who aren't effected by it either. My sinus is completely messed up which makes using it on me, useless.
Re: (Score:2)
so you are telling me that the cop that walked up on my friend, threw him on the ground face-first and then pepper-sprayed him when he rolled into the fetal positing clutching his shattered teeth and broken nose "gave [him] multiple opportunities for compliance" even though he never uttered a command. FYI the police review board ruled it a reasonable use of force even though the charges of resisting arrest were dropped. he was not breaking any law when approached, just 'looke
Re:Pepper spray is torturous. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
If used in war, it is actually a war crime, since it's a chemical weapon banned under the chemical weapon convention.
Use in domestic policing isn't covered by the Chemical Weapons Convention, so pepper spray used by your local police dept isn't a war crime.
What's the point? (Score:2)
There are already well established techniques for concentrating/purifying capsaicin.
It's even done commercially for non-weapons uses, plenty of hot sauces have Scoville ratings well above that of any natural pepper - http://www.hotsauceworld.com/bl6amrepeexe.html [hotsauceworld.com]
from what i read in the press (Score:2)
I really like Buth Jolokia - great taste (Score:2)
I would like to recomment Buth Jolokia as a great chili, beyond just the high capsaicin content: it's a chili with a particular, very pleasant flavor.
As for "weaponizing it", there is one problem: individual sensitivity to capsaicin is extremely variable.
Chemical Variant? (Score:2)
Could they mean that Bhut Jolokia has some different isomers of capsaicin with differing effects from "standard" pepper sprays? I'd have looked it up on wikipedia but they're down at the moment.
This is stupid (Score:2)
The nature of the pepper is irrelevant unless you are eating the raw pepper. Pure CAPSAICIN will always have the maximum possible Scoville value of about 16,000,000.
The idea of the 'special' extra hot is moronic. Anyone can take a regular old jalapeno pepper, distill it's juices down 1,000 time and make something hotter than the Bhut Jolokia.
In fact, law enforcement grade pepper spray is at least 5x worse t
Call me juvenile ... (Score:5, Funny)
In fact, Indian farmers say Bhut paste can be used for everything from sauces to tear gas. And there in lies the military's interest.
The Indian military is interested in the many uses of Bhut paste? I ... I don't know how to respond to this in a mature manner.
Just to put this in perspective: (Score:2)
Pure Capsaicin [wikipedia.org] is at 16 million Scoville.
So you might say that 1/16th of that thing is pure Capsaicin.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I am American, not Indian, BTW. Just a pepperhead.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
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ER, IIRC, pepper spray is about 10% OC, or around 1.6 million.
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I consider the taste reminiscent of the aftertaste of a fresh mango - slightly sweet, smoky, and then you've got that SLAM worse than a habanero.
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I was really sad to find out that my apt doesn't get enough sun to grow these :( They are really tasty.
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How would you describe it in comparison to a habanero? I like the heat, but frankly don't care for the flavor of habaneros. Too...I don't know. Bitter-ish? Smoky? I much prefer jalapenos and wax pepper varieties.
Pardon the lack of tildes, it takes too much effort on a netbook.
To me habaneros taste strongly of tropical fruit and jalapenos taste slightly bitter. The "ghost pepper," at least in the dried form in which I bought it, was sort of tangy like a dried thai chili.
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Back when I was working in New Mexico, there was a fair in Taos. One of the guys there was selling Dave's hot sauces, including their new ghost pepper variety. I bought the "temporary insanity" (57,000 scoville units according to this [gourmetmikes.com]), and it's too hot for me except small doses. About a year later, the bottle is still mostly full.
My roommate, who has a much higher threshold for spicy food than anyone I've ever met, brought the newly unveiled ghost pepper brand (2.5 million scoville units, according to the
Re: (Score:2)
(1) It instantly blisters skin on contact
(3) Not only is it good for eating...
I'm having a hard time reconciling the first clause of fact #3 with fact #1.
Re:Tastes great (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tastes great (Score:4, Informative)
It's also not a permanent pain reliever, it is temporary. It can last longer than other methods though. AFAICT it can last for a few weeks [usatoday.com].
Re:Tastes great (Score:4, Informative)
(1) It instantly blisters skin on contact
(3) Not only is it good for eating...
I'm having a hard time reconciling the first clause of fact #3 with fact #1.
That's because "Fact" 1 isn't.
I've been handling all sorts of hot peppers for many years, and the particularly hot ones are very capable of producing a burning sensation on the skin just like in your mouth. And Rubbing your eyes inadvertently will ruin your evening, there is no doubt. But blistering? I sup[pose it could happen if you had an allergic reaction, but that's not even remotely going to be a common thing.
It's been my experience that dealers and vendors are really in to hyping the dangers of the sauces that are typically named "Loco", Death" and "Devil" based scary named variations.. And well they should, it's really good for business, and selling product is what they do.
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Re:Tastes great (Score:4, Insightful)
TRPV1 antagonists (of which capsaicin is one) can cause rashes and inflamation on the skin, but it takes a very high concentration. The only way I could see getting a blister is from a serious allergic reaction.
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I'll take a dozen!
Re:Tastes great (Score:5, Informative)
The guy who sold it to us told us a few interesting things about it: (1) It instantly blisters skin on contact (2) it's very expensive to buy over the internet because it has to be shipped as a hazardous materiel. (3) Not only is it good for eating, but it works great as a caustic agent for degreasing driveways, engines, etc.
the guy who sold it was ragingly full of shit.
I have let it sit on my skin for 20 minutes to prove it's a fake claim... Won $100.00 in the office after that and eating a taco with it on it. (they dont understand that sour cream really kills it's burn)
It's not acid, it dont burn the skin and is worthless for degreasing driveways.
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Not only does it taste good, but the capsaicin causes the release of endorphins. So you catch a buzz off of it as well.
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That might work for preventing the spread, but the way that capsascin(sp) works is by activating all the receptors on the nerve. That's where the "heat" comes from, sensory overload.
Re:Tastes great (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes but capsaicin is a fat-soluble compound. Water won't dissolve it (which is why drinking water or most liquids do nothing to stop a burning tongue), but milk, yogurt, or any other fat-containing liquid will dissolve it and wash it down the throat, nearly neutralizing the effect.
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Then the spray has had its intended effect.
It's supposed to stop you from doing something by incapacitating you with pain and temporarily blinding you.
Whether you are rolling on the floor screaming and ripping your eyeballs out by their bloody stalks, or rolling on the ground screaming and blindly smearing mango Lassi on your eyes is really irrelevant - your hands are otherwise occupied and cannot go for your gun, and you are temporarily blind.
Plus I have to imagine something this high on the Scoville scale
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How is drinking yogurt going to help? The only way yogurt dissolves capsacin is due to the fats in it, and that requires direct contact between the yogurt and the capsacin.
Smear the lhassi all over your body before the battle, and you might be better off. Leave it on for a few hours, and your trenchmates will need the gas masks.
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Really? All the cooks and cooking shows I've ever seen that deal with hot peppers say it's a myth. Looks as if I'm going to have to write to the Mythbusters.
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Capsaicin is also alkaline, so if you consume something acidic, like orange juice, we get base + acid = salt.
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Pakistan and China (Score:3, Interesting)
Three words: Pakistan and China. They've been to war several times with the former, and have had bloody border clashes with the latter. India has also blamed Pakistan for terrorist violence over Kashmir, among other things, including the bloody attack on the Grand Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai.
It's worse now that Pakistan has nukes, but realistically Pakistan is not a viable military rival for her much larger and far more populous neighbor. The scenario that keeps me up at
Re:Pakistan and China (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, you are right! India's both strength and weakness lies in Democracy. That is the reason behind India's moderate growth compared to China's aggressive.
In the backdrop of Google vs China, we can't even imagine Google vs India. Here in India, you have freedom to express what you think. Here the limitation is you can't do as you wish freely due to practical issues like massive population, corrupted politicians (not political system) and bureaucrats and last but not least people's expectation that some one will/should come and solve our problem like a super man. China tackles all the above issues with one single weapon called Dictatorship in the name of Communism. So their pace may be better than India **as of now**.
But it is true that growth of a nation is **not** 100m race, it is marathon - you need consistent performance and more resilience. After all Country is nothing but the people. What the govt. is going to achieve by isolating its people from the main stream of world? In Tamil, there is a saying - "What you are going to achieve by buying painting at the cost of your eyes?"
I am afraid that I may be biased towards India, since I am an Indian. But I take US as dream role model for our country's political system. The democracy in US is the one which has driven it so far. We are lucky to have such a democracy in India. In US, the people's real patriotism lies in being true to the social setup (basically adhering to the rules and regulation of the society). But it is unfortunate that here in India patriotism is judged on your emotional show case than how sincere you are towards country's growth.
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Thank you for your reply, and in fact I agree 100% that India will prevail because of democracy. As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except of course for all the others." In my opinion, the most basic political right is freedom of expression, and so long as India allows it and China does not, the full potential of the Chinese people will not be met. The Right To Information Act of 2005 is another great step forward by India, and I believe it to be an example to most other
Re:Pepper Abuse (Score:5, Funny)