Scientists Build a Smarter Rat 302
destinyland writes "Scientists have engineered a more intelligent rat, with three times the memory length of today's smartest rats. Reseachers bred transgenic over-expression of the NR2B gene, which increased communication between the rat's memory synapses. Activating a crucial brain receptor for just a fraction of a second longer produces a dramatic effect on memory, as proven by the rat's longer memories of the path through a maze."
Needs much more work (Score:5, Funny)
When they can scale it up from lawyers to humans, we might have something useful to talk about.
Actually I wonder what the downside is (Score:3, Insightful)
After all, if more memory were that simple, surely evolution would have changed that gene by itself. If it were a tradeoff, that would be much more logical.
So what did these rats lose ? Do they have gaps in long term memory ?
I'd watch out for the "no free lunch" idea holding true here too.
Re:Actually I wonder what the downside is (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the trade-off is that their brain simply needs more energy, which isn't great when food availability is the main factor limiting reproduction. Or maybe, the better memory simply doesn't help the rats too much in their natural habitat. After all, natural selection doesn't favour long memories, it favours large effective reproduction rates. If long memory doesn't lead to higher effective reproduction rates, it won't be improved by natural selection.
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Maybe the trade-off is that their brain simply needs more energy, which isn't great when food availability is the main fact
Let's hope so. I doubt it though : it could be brain cooling if it's energy related. Not one of the strong points of mammals. After all, brain cooling is the reason we have a head in the first place.
Re:Actually I wonder what the downside is (Score:4, Interesting)
I've noticed that I have a very good semantic memory (memory of concepts), but a comparatively poor episodic memory (memory of events). I tend to remember patterns but not specific examples of those patterns.
I've wondered if there's some sort of trade off between the two. Instead of memory performance and other aspects of intelligence being a matter of capacity (where more is strictly better), it could be more of a matter of allocation of capacity (where there may be trade offs).
Re:Actually I wonder what the downside is (Score:5, Funny)
After all, if more memory were that simple, surely evolution would have changed that gene by itself. If it were a tradeoff, that would be much more logical. So what did these rats lose ? Do they have gaps in long term memory ? I'd watch out for the "no free lunch" idea holding true here too.
Evolution decided that when creature has to eating nothing but rotting crap all it's life, it's best that the creature not be able to ponder on the matter.
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Since they haven't gotten it to work in humans yet, we'll probably forget about it before...OMG, did you hear the latest on Jon and Kate?!?
NIMH (Score:5, Funny)
Mrs. Frisby [wikipedia.org] will be pleased...
Spooky (Score:2, Funny)
While I know that this sort of research is ultimately aimed at improving human life, for some reason I can't shake the image of a mad scientist making super-smart dogs, the experiment going awry, and an apocalyptic future of human-pitbull wars.
Re:Spooky (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, we'll all need to live longer so we can foil the plans of Pinky and the Brain.
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The name escapes me, but I read a SF story that speculated on that. With super intelligent mice, rats, cats and dogs, the rats and cats ate the mice, the dogs ate the cats, then the really smart ones teamed up with people against the rats and other dogs.
Fair point, they'd be smart enough to realise the value of opposable thumbs. Using can openers for one thing.
Uplift series by David Brin (Score:2)
Good stuff.
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Could be "Day of the PagBeasts", alternate title "The Fittest". I think the author was Edgar Pagborn, but it could be J.T. McIntosh. Written in the 1940's or 50's.
I read it once from a library and could never find it again. It wasn't all *that* good, but there was something compelling me to read it again for something I missed the first time. Never did find it. My guess is it never got printed in paperback, and was originally printed in Britain. Given that it had two titles I suspect that it must have
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While I know that this sort of research is ultimately aimed at improving human life, for some reason I can't shake the image of a mad scientist making super-smart dogs, the experiment going awry, and an apocalyptic future of human-pitbull wars.
On that note it won't matter even if they succeed. This country is almost certain to ban it on the basis that it gives the beneficiaries an "unethical advantage" over others. After all we already have piracetam which supposedly does something similar, and that's banned.
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What is a piracetam?
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It's not banned in the USA. Where are you?
The obvious answer would be, not in the USA. But seriously, there are plenty of countries that try to "protect" it's citizens by legislating away any chemical that looks like it might potentially be dangerous. I simply live in one of those countries. For that matter, I have to get Aspirin over the counter.
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For that matter, I have to get Aspirin over the counter.
I think you might be confusing the meaning of over-the-counter. OTC drugs do not require prescriptions.
Re:Spooky (Score:4, Informative)
Most of the time, at least in the US, the term OTC is used to refer to non-prescription drugs that are stocked on the shelves.
Over-the-counter drug [wikipedia.org]:
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Like in "The Pentagon (whoever, YMMV) sponsored a research program to evaluate the use of artificially improved mammals in the fight against terrorism"?
CC.
The rats' name is not 'Algernon', or is it? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Flowers for Algernon" was the first association that popped up from the depths of my mind...
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Elenor?
Rat 2.0 : Modern Rat (Score:2)
Special upgrade pricing - 25% off with trade-in of your old rat.
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The world needs this.... (Score:2, Insightful)
We need this about as much as we need a much stronger more deadly flu virus.
When rats are vermin and carry disease, why make them even better a survival? or are they scientists thinking that if they get clever enough they'll start writing software for a living?
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I wish there was a "-1, pathetically paranoid party pooper" mod..
Re:The world needs this.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I wish there was a "-1, pathetically paranoid party pooper" mod..
I'm glad there's not, because this really is a dangerous thing. If one of these rats escapes we will be in for some hurting. Rats are already rather smart--they know what traps are and how to avoid them, for example. Go live in a rat-infested portion of a city and then tell us again anyone objecting to this experiment is "paranoid".
Re:The world needs this.... (Score:5, Funny)
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This would make no difference since cats are already the dominant species on this planet.
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I've never even seen any rats outside of a petstore, sorry, let alone know of any "rat-infested" areas.. I've seen one live mouse and plenty of dead mice and voles caught by our cats over the years, but no rats.
I still think it's stupid to let paranoia get in the way of scientific progress. Yes, if one of them escapes then we could have slightly smarter rats in some places. Oh noes..
We've dealt with rat problems before. and we can do it again if necessary :P It's one of the things that scientific progress i
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You mean, we're constantly fighting a war against rats in urban and rural areas. The suburbs tend not to have rat problems (you get skunks, opossums, and raccoons, though).
Do you know how much we spend in the US on rat remediation? And how much damage is caused by rats? Total economic cost of alien-species rats in the US is (a href="http://people.hws.edu/bshelley/Teaching/PimentelEtal00CostExotics.pdf">estimated to be $19 Billi
Re:The world needs this.... (Score:5, Funny)
It's not a real problem. These rats with their superior maze-following ability will be nerds among rats, and thus will not reproduce in the wild.
Re:The world needs this.... (Score:4, Funny)
They'll be busy playing D&D?
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Lab rats, like pet fancy rats, are smaller and less aggressive than their wild cousins. They'd be much more likely to be killed by than bred with any wild rats they meet.
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Ever have a rat in your house (other than your brother in law)? I have. They are smart enough.
Last thing I need is one that figures out how to change the locks when I'm at work.
The last little bastard cost me over $1500 in damages the last time. I really don't need a smarter one, thanks anyway.
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I just don't get why people are focusing on the whole rat part of the story rather than the cool part. I didn't see people complaining about the glow in the dark mice, or the ones with ears growing out of their backs etc. or any of the other horrible things we've done to rodents. As soon as we give them something that is actually beneficial, everyone starts whining..
Probably exaggerating a bit there, but that's my style.
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The world doesn't need this rat.
But perhaps our kids will actually also have a better memory because of it. Then they can all still remember the history lessons they learned in school when they get to a position of power. And humanity will actually be able to learn from mistakes made in the past. And the world will be a better place. Free drinks for everyone.
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Strangely enough, there's an i in rational.
Unless you're an engineer; then it isn't strange at all: there's no j.
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Don't be daft. They used rats because they're a standard experimental animal not because they want to make some kind of super rodents. Research it rats is often applicable in other species; like humans.
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We need this about as much as we need a much stronger more deadly flu virus.
This is just a stepping stone to create things that will change the world for the better..
...For instance, a monkey with four asses.
Any news on Charlie? (Score:2)
I will spring for the flowers, Charlie. Just don't act like a jerk.
Memory is an interesting thing (Score:5, Interesting)
Even the most forgetful person can be reminded of an event and recall it with vivid clarity. Alzheimer's sufferers can overcome some of the difficulties of the disease with a device like the Life Recorder [techcrunch.com].
So when we say that someone's (or some rat's) memory is improved, what exactly is improved? Is it the recall ability? If so, does that mean that the rat is somehow able to logically filter out unnecessary information to reach the important memory? Or does it mean that the rat's memory has been structured in a better way? Is it only a spatial thing, or can it work for any type of information?
As someone with a bad memory, I would be very interested in understanding how this actually works within the rat's brain.
Larger L2 (Score:2)
Larger L2 cache.
I say that somewhat jokingly, but picked L2 as an imperfect analogy. RAM or L3 could also work. But basically, it appears these rats can remember a larger short term list. Not the immediate data (wall in front of me / L1), not all data (everything learned to date / RAM), but a working set of reference data (maze directions / L2)
Again, this is just my half joking analogy. Please feel to modify or disregard.
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Hmmm... so the event is still there in our memory, we just can't locate it? So this is like increasing the size of the hash table it's indexed with, perhaps...
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Faster Memory? (Score:5, Funny)
So they overclocked the rats? Cool!
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No, I think they added a bit or two to the serially-transmitted address size.
They tripled the memory size, so I'm still trying to figure out whether this implies that our brains operate in base-3 or whether some of the newly-created address space is unaddressable for reasons yet unknown.
Re:Faster Memory? (Score:4, Funny)
...whether some of the newly-created address space is unaddressable for reasons yet unknown.
You need a 64-bit rat to access all the extra memory space.
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You're thinking of a parallel architecture, where a longer address takes more bus connections. In a serial connection, it just takes longer to transmit it. It's more of a firmware update than a hardware mod.
Gold Fish (Score:2)
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Finally, when someone tells me I have the memory of a goldfish... wait, what was I going to say?
We already knew it worked for mice (Score:5, Insightful)
Kind of old news; the first report that NR2B overexpression improves rodent performance in some behavioral tests of learning and memory was was published in 1999 [ttp]. The nice thing here is that the investigators now have it working in the rat, which is a more difficult animal for transgenic studies, and a better one for behavioral work and electrophysiology.
Nevertheless, it raises an interesting question: if intelligence can be increased by something so simple as an increase in the expression of a single NMDA receptor subunit, why hasn't it already happened? Presumably, there is a selective advantage to improved learning and memory. Presumably, there is some kind of downside that balances that selective advantage. Are there other behaviors for which the rat is impaired?
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Nevertheless, it raises an interesting question: if intelligence can be increased by something so simple as an increase in the expression of a single NMDA receptor subunit, why hasn't it already happened? Presumably, there is a selective advantage to improved learning and memory. Presumably, there is some kind of downside that balances that selective advantage.
The downside is that now the Rats crave human brains...
Re:We already knew it worked for mice (Score:5, Insightful)
> Presumably, there is some kind of downside that balances that selective
> advantage.
Higher energy requirements would be a good bet.
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Yeah, but that's the case pretty much every time you overclock...
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It's a possibility, but I don't think so. The receptors don't use a lot of energy. The baseline cost of maintaining the neurons won't change. So the main incremental cost will be the pump costs for repolarizing after action potentials. But it doesn't seem likely that overall firing is massively increased, or they'd probably be seizing.
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If intelligence is a benefit, why aren't all animals already as smart as humans?
You see... evolution does not work that way. It is not zero-sum. It is not itself intelligent. It is perfectly possible that such a mutation is entirely beneficial, but simply hadn't occurred naturally.
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To answer this question, I reference Idiocracy.
Re:We already knew it worked for mice (Score:5, Insightful)
Presumably, there is a selective advantage to improved learning and memory. Presumably, there is some kind of downside that balances that selective advantage. Are there other behaviors for which the rat is impaired
As you suggest, there are two possibilities why this advantage hasn't occurred naturally:
1. It adds no selective advantage;
2. The advantage is outweighed by the costs.
There is a third possibility, namely that the set of mutations necessary to give rise to this advantage are too improbable to occur (or perhaps even fundamentally impossible).
Based on no knowledge whatsoever, I suspect that there probably is some selective advantage to higher intelligence in rats, over long enough periods of time. I hypothesize that the rats lack the ability to effectively dissipate heat from a highly active brain, and concurrently those evolutions that allow more effective dissipation of heat (e.g. baldness) are contrary to (or have never occurred concurrent with) the selective advantage of the intelligence. Perhaps we will breed intelligent, bald rats. [salon.com]
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I hypothesize that the rats lack the ability to effectively dissipate heat from a highly active brain,
That's probably a pretty poor hypothesis. Heat rejection depends in part on the surface area to volume ratio. It's easier to reject heat from something small than something big. In fact, small mammals have a hard time just keeping their temperatures UP.
I'd guess it costs energy that could be used for reproduction or maturing faster or just getting away from predators. But that is just a wild guess, too.
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If it were something complicated, like multiple specific mutations or introduction of a gene that the animal doesn't have to begin with, this is plausible. But this is merely increasing the expression of a gene that is already there, and there are multiple regulatory mechanisms, both genomic and postgenomic that control its abundance o
Re:We already knew it worked for mice (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe there is a 4th possibility. Everyone seems to be focusing on "survivability", but once that is overcome, reproduction becomes important. Look at the ostentatious displays of some birds that have nothing to do with survivability or might even be detrimental to it. Maybe a highly intelligent rat simply becomes less interested in sex, or is less able to attract females who might prefer the dumb macho rats. I don't know if a comparison to humans has any validity, but the most intelligent of our species are not necessarily the ones reproducing the most (or in some cases at all). This is in spite of the fact that we are intelligent enough to understand logically what is necessary to propagate our genes. In terms of the long-term evolution of humans, intelligence doesn't seem to be one of the characteristics we are selecting for, for better or worse.
Corrected link (Score:2)
corrected link [nih.gov]
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Nevertheless, it raises an interesting question: if intelligence can be increased by something so simple as an increase in the expression of a single NMDA receptor subunit, why hasn't it already happened?
It HAS happened, but those affected (rats included) simply can't get laid to propagate the phenomenon...
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I expect that you were joking, but I think that it is a serious possibility. Transgenic animals are bred in captivity. I wonder what their mating success would be in the wild.
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It has, or you wouldn't be here :-)
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However, you need to survive to reproduce. Rats use their intelligence to get access to, and remember the location of, food sources. So it seems unlikely that a rat that was smarter, with no downside, would not have a selective advantage when food is scarce.
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
How the Rat Wars began (Score:2)
At 2:14 am on August 29th, NR2B+ A23, aka "Pinky", became self-aware. After a brief bout of tail chasing, coupled with a sudden realization, "Holy crap, I'm a f'ing rat." Pinky began to fear being shut down by his creators.
And so it began....
at what cost? (Score:5, Insightful)
Due to his enhanced memory, the rat could not push her out of his mind. The memories refused to fade with time. The slightest sight or scent would cause him not just to remember his intense passion and total devotion, but also to relive it, as if she were still there with him. Moments later, as reality returned, he inevitably re-experienced that October afternoon when she left. The despair cut to the bottom of his soul in a way far more intense than the original break-up had been, as shock had initially numbed his pain. No more. His perfect memory of perfect happiness lifted him up so high, the inevitable fall came from an unimaginable height, and terminal velocity does not apply to emotions.
After enduring this torture for what seemed an eternity, he finally gave in, and resolutely marched toward the wire-framed cheese, her angelic body still vivid in his mind...
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That was the best Slashdot comment I have ever read.
Other Rodent Upgrade Experiments (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a report this September [scienceblogs.com] that gene therapy had been used to grant "full" color vision to colorblind monkeys, following on an earlier experiment that did the same thing to rodents. That is, the rodents were given three-color vision where they normally have two color receptor types. (Would that make them transrodents?) Apparently, the brain automatically adapts to having a new receptor type installed in the retina! And the same technique could be used on humans to grant us a fourth receptor type, maybe a UV receptor gotten from parrots or something. I'd volunteer to have this done to one eye. (The first comment on this article [blogspot.com] presents a dissenting view that just because the monkeys were able to distinguish colors in greater detail than before, that shouldn't be taken as proof that they "have full color vision". All the more reason to try it in a human!)
The rodents could be in combination with cyborg cats though, as seen in this 1995 report [futurefeeder.com] of recognizable images read directly from a cat's visual cortex.
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I'd personally be much more interested in infrared receptors...
I hear cotton is nearly transparent in the infrared range.
We need this like a hole in the head... (Score:2)
Man, that's all we need, to succumb to a plague of genetically engineered rats.
I'll say it now... (Score:2)
Did we learn nothing from Deep Blue Sea [wikipedia.org]? (Or this: IntelliMouse [microsoft.com]?)
I, for one, welcome <you know the rest...>
That's funny (Score:2)
One of my scientist friends was on this team. We'd always go to the renaissance faires together -- she was always big into the art booths, always liked those renaissance period painters. Her work was on turtles though...
got to be a joke about... (Score:2)
Somewhere a joke about the Stainless Steel Rat is waiting to appear, but I can't find it. Clearly I need some of that memory enhancement.
James Herbert (Score:2)
No good can come of this..
"For millions of years man and rats had been natural enemies. But now for the first time - suddenly, shockingly, horribly - the balance of power had shifted."
http://www.james-herbert.co.uk/rats.htm [james-herbert.co.uk]
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NIMH coming soon
With GATTACA soon to follow?
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science could bread more intelligent rats
Mmmmmm... breaded rats.
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science could bread more intelligent rats
Mmmmmm... breaded rats.
That's quite a delicacy to us level 5 dwar{f,ve}s, especially with ketchup. That'll sustain you through a whole night of supporting Linux users or mining.
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Mining Linux Users ROCKS!
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Seeing these posts is like listing to Monty Python's "I Like Traffic Lights" song.
Re:I for one (Score:4, Funny)
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welcome our new Rat Bastard overlords!
New?
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welcome our new Rat Bastard overlords!
New?
Well, bribing these Rat Bastards with cheese is much cheaper than bribing our old masters with large campaign contributions, blackjack and of coarse the strippers.
Re:I for one (Score:4, Funny)
Coarse strippers are rough!
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Actually, I applaud you for using your user name!
Why? What could possibly go wrong?
If my karma ever drops below Excellent I will simply post a few messages saying how great the PS3 is or maybe a few about how the iPhone is so much better than any other phone, or I could just discuss how horrible Micro$oft and the Government are.
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You must be new here.
Re:I for one (Score:4, Funny)
OMG! I can't believe I was actually on the internet when the FIRST EVER expression of displeasure towards an overused meme was posted! So fresh, so original, so... intelligent! You truly are a hero of the internet!!!
Thanks for standing up for us, the little guys, who see memes posted day after day but are unable to do anything about it. You, sir, have surely stopped, once and for all, this abuse of popular culture.
Re:I for one (Score:5, Funny)
Thanks for standing up for us, the little guys, who see memes posted day after day but are unable to do anything about it. You, sir, have surely stopped, once and for all, this abuse of popular culture.
I for one, welcome our new meme overlords!
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However, do those rats run Linux? Maybe we would need memory-enhanced penguins instead. But those don't breed as fast ...
You must be doing something wrong...
You are trying to bread the penguins with OTHER penguins right?
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What ya gona do tonight? (Score:5, Funny)
What ya gona do tonight?
Same thing we do every night.
try to take over the world.!!!
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Biological overclocking. How long before they try nitrogen cooling?
Uhmmm, Nitrogen is the largest single constituent of the Earth's atmosphere (78.082% by volume, 75.3% by weight) so they already have.
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Biological overclocking. How long before they try nitrogen cooling?
In other news, "Ratsicles" will soon be available in your grocer's freezer.