US Military Blocks Data On Incoming Meteors 172
Hugh Pickens writes "Nature reports that the US military has abruptly ended an informal arrangement that allowed scientists access to data on incoming meteors from classified surveillance satellites, dealing a blow to the astronomers and planetary scientists who used the information to track space rocks. 'These systems are extremely useful,' says astronomer Peter Brown, at the University of Western Ontario. 'I think the scientific community benefited enormously.' Meteor data came from the Defense Support Program (DSP) satellite network consisting of infrared satellites in geosynchronous orbit to monitor the globe for missile launches or atmospheric nuclear blasts, forming the principal component of the United States' ballistic missile early-warning system. The satellites' effectiveness was demonstrated during Desert Storm, when DSP detected the launch of Iraqi Scud missiles and provided warning to civilian populations and coalition forces in Israel and Saudi Arabia. As a side benefit, the satellites could also precisely detect the time, position, altitude and brightness of meteors as they entered Earth's atmosphere, information the military didn't consider particularly useful, or classified. 'It was being dropped on the floor,' says former Air Force captain Brian Weeden. Although the reason for ending the arrangement remains unclear, Weeden notes that it coincides with the launch of a new generation of surveillance satellites and speculates that the Pentagon may not want details of the new satellites' capabilities to be made public, or it may simply lack the expensive software needed to handle classified and declassified data simultaneously. 'The decision may have been made that it was perhaps too difficult to disclose just these data.'"
Chicken Little (Score:2, Insightful)
I would too, do you want people running around like Chicken Little?
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Only if Arrowsmith provides the background music.
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"Blocks"? (Score:4, Insightful)
From TFS, the military stopped giving out unclassified information that was a byproduct of a military function - a windfall.
"Blocks" means that the information would flow but for the military's action.
The editors (snicker) should have used "stops" - more ambiguous and yet more accurate at the same time. But I guess that wouldn't generate the clicks, now would it?
Re:"Blocks"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed.
It's a shame, and obviously we don't know exactly what the situation is, but if speculation is correct... should I really be upset that the military doesn't want to allow the world to black-box the capabilities of its missile detection systems? Especially with a wacky bastard in Korea lobbing his test missiles in our direction?
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More importantly, this is one of the few times that I have heard of unclassified data obtained by a classified program being distributed. Seems odd that there is a reliance or expectation for this data, considering it originates with a classified satellite system, let alone which is directly related to national security.
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Seems odd that there is a reliance or expectation for this data, considering it originates with a classified satellite system, let alone which is directly related to national security.
Generally speaking, if I am paying for something, I feel entitled to the results or products it produces.
Unfortunately thats not how the government works. I get to foot the bill but I have no say in the product lifecycle.
Just wait til it is your health care and not classified satellite information that you have no say in.
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Generally speaking, if I am paying for something, I feel entitled to the results or products it produces.
If you're paying for it, then you're a US citizen. Which means you have a first class military to protect you and your property. You are getting the results and products. Then there is the internet and computer you used to post this. It may occasionally take time, but you do get the benefits from it.
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Generally speaking, if I am paying for something, I feel entitled to the results or products it produces.
Unfortunately thats not how the government works. I get to foot the bill but I have no say in the product lifecycle.
If you buy lumber, you don't expect mulch for free.
I'd love for them to find a way to keep giving out this data, but it's a byproduct of a defense project. If you feel safe from a foreign military force then you're getting what you paid for.
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I think "the situation" is that we have a US Navy destroyer tailing a North Korean freighter potentially carrying illegal missiles to a rouge military dictatorship, and North Korea has threatened to fire it's long range missiles (which they've recently been testing, along with detonating a nuclear bomb underground, all in the last 30-60 days) if we board or attempt to intercept. North Korea is looking for a fight, and it's not at all surprising that the US military has turned off the tap for public viewing
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Good try but if you read the article you would see that scientists accessing this data were told earlier this year. The US wasn't tailing a North Korean freighter then and could not have anticipated doing so at this time. So while the US military may wish to no longer disclose the capabilities of its satellites to Joe Public, it is not a result of the current situation near Korea.
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No, but I assume the Iranian elections were scheduled well in advance.
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With enough data on the fireballs you could possibly detect the position of the satellites. Nowadays there are way more cameras directed towards the sky than some couple of years ago. If the scientists provide data to the public maybe there is some channel open for the public to figure out where the satellites are or look.
Or maybe it is just as the scientists said:
"Weeden speculates that the Pentagon may not want details of the new satellites' capabilities to be made public, or it may simply lack the expens
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Please stop using the term "crowdsource" and all variations thereof.
Yours Truly,
The Intarwebs
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It is unlikely North Korea is looking for a fight. They don't stand a chance and are very well aware of that. Up until now they've used their nuclear program to leverage negotations with the US, nothing else. There's no point in them starting a nuclear war (or any other type of armed conflict for that matter) since they are sure to lose.
You could compare North Korea to an well-versed spoiled kid: enough of a distraction to annoy you and get you to do stuff, but too little of a threat to actually take any se
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They seem to be a big enough distraction to Japan that they're considering changing their constitution to have a standing army. Japan is (I believe) the third largest economy (pop. 128 million - about 1/3rd the size of the US and twice the size of England) in the world and N. Korea keeps shooting "test" missiles in their direction. With a million-man standing army it's not a country we want to have a ground war with and not a country Japan or S. Korea wants to have a missile ping pong match with.
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...we have a US Navy destroyer tailing a North Korean freighter potentially carrying illegal missiles to a rouge military dictatorship...
Yeah, I too would much prefer them to go to pink democracies or chartreuse constitutional monarchies.
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[citation needed] Way to slip that one in there. I haven't heard him say one thing against gay marraige yet. Everything I've heard/read said that he's done everything he can within his powers to improve gay rights. Presidents can only sign things into law, not vote for them. Contact your congressman if you have an axe to grind. They write/vote on actual laws. Gay marriage is definitely on the agenda, but right now I think nationalized health care is a higher priority. We still have
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Funny about North Korea, but I wonder if it could be the other way around. With everyone expecting a missile attack from North Korea, who would be able to say whether a strike on American soil actually originated from there? With outside access to this kind of information being limited, we would have to trust our government and a few other nations with such capability that the North Koreans did, in fact, attack us. Also, don't forget that FEMA is planning major exercises around the country in late July.
M
Re:"Blocks"? (Score:5, Insightful)
With everyone expecting a missile attack from North Korea, who would be able to say whether a strike on American soil actually originated from there?
The Russians and Chinese, probably the British and French, possibly others.
What, you think the USA is the only country with spy satellites watching for launches?
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Don't forget that researchers have been tracking these orbits for quite a while and would already know of potential close calls that could hit the earth with a relatively accurate time line.
It's more likely that the satellites have been re purposed for a short period of time to monitor the situation with North Korea or to allow other sats to do that. Sure, we got other birds in the air but with more of them looking in specific spots, more can be seen earlier.
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Also, don't forget that FEMA is planning major exercises around the country in late July.
Indeed. The curious can read about it here: https://www.fema.gov/media/fact_sheets/nle09.shtm [fema.gov]
FEMA conducts exercises all the time [google.com]. The Federal Emergency Management Agency wouldn't be very effective if they never practiced managing emergencies.
Many may say that I am being too conspiratorial in this, but are there not many examples of our country doing similar things throughout history to start a war?
Are there?
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You may be paying for your government, but "We the sheeple" have little say
in how it is run you will find if you look at some of legislation coming out of DC
over the last 8 years.
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Could it be that it takes resources to track or deliver data on rocks and that they have better uses for their time all of a sudden?
The world had enough time to black box the capabilities already as it seems.
There just has to be some other sort of leak. Maybe plugging potential holes takes effort too.
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Or a wacky bastard in the USA lobbing his real missiles into Iraq. Oh, wait! ^^
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Re:"Blocks"? (Score:4, Informative)
In all fairness, the article's subheading is "Satellite information on incoming meteors is blocked."
-l
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I totally agree with the parent poster. It should have read something like 'no longer shares openly.' From what I can tell, the US military was under no obligation to share the data. It isn't like the military is jamming communications channels, or otherwise blocking data that would naturally be available.
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From what I can tell, the US military was under no obligation to share the data.
Yes they are. If you've been listening, you've heard over and over that the military is there to protect the population. That's the standard justification for their existence. Fact is that Mother Nature is lobbing big rocks at us, and occasionally one of them hits the planet. Damage can and does come from "foreign" threats that aren't other humans.
If the military has the tools to collect data on big rocks in space, and doesn
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Your post is clear and lucid, except for the fact that it is wholly and completely wrong. The satellites in question look for infrared signatures on the Earth. They only detect meteors when they've already hit the atmosphere, by which time it's a bit late to do anything about them.
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My guess is that it is an oversight on the part of whoever ordered the software.
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Oversight? Hardly. It's damned expensive to produce unclassified content from a classified source.
By default, it is assumed ALL data generated by a classified source is classified. To unclassify any of that information requires a highly-tested, bulletproof-design of software that can be shown that in the process of declassifying any part of the data, it is impossible that something classified accidently got in there.
It's much cheaper to just leave everything classified at the same level as the piece of h
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Tinfoil isn't just for Jiffy Pop anymore (Score:5, Funny)
I assume this means the mothership is now on final approach, and we don't want those scientists causing a panic.
I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords. Advanced warning is only useful if you are against them. Join us.
--
Toro
Re:Tinfoil isn't just for Jiffy Pop anymore (Score:5, Funny)
Good news everyone (Score:1, Insightful)
Meteors are coming, everyone panic.
Re:Good news everyone (Score:5, Insightful)
It should be noted that the system looks "down", not "up" - it only sees meteors after they've hit the atmosphere.
So if one big enough to cause substantial damage arrives, the message will be more like "MeteBOOOM!" followed by a lot of static.
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Too expensive for the US military??? (Score:1, Interesting)
That's crazy talk.
Generals! Let me help you out. Me and right wing buddies will start posting stories about how the USA is dropping its guard against meteors, and potentially large asteroid strikes, and we'll create a groundswell of support for getting this thing turned back on. If the lefties can come up with some stuff about how good it is to have this government program, then, I'm sure we can form a bipartisan consensus to get you the funding you need.
Except... (Score:1)
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...that, since the satellites are looking TOWARDS Earth and not AWAY from it, it'll only see objects that are actually IN Earth's atmosphere, which is FAR too late to actually GUARD anything.
You don't understand... this is politics. Obviously, we need more satellites.
I have a solution (Score:2)
Then update the rows for the non-Classified ones.
But seriously, "Expensive software"? Isn't most of this stuff custom-built anyway?
Re:I have a solution (Score:4, Informative)
That's not the point. The point is if we can tell you what meteors are landing and where, it doesn't take an extensive amount of data for you to be able to pinpoint where those military satellites are in the sky. It doesn't take a lot for you to then calculate when you can be doing shit outside, and when you need to be under cover.
The data they may be collecting may end up being unclassified, but the means they're using to collect it are likely classified fairly highly. Usually this information is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_United_States#Sensitive_Compartmented_Information_.28SCI.29_and_Special_Access_Programs_.28SAP.29 [wikipedia.org]
It makes sense. If it were possible to determine the capabilities of your sensors (whether we're talking from a satellite or a human informant) by putting together the bits and pieces of their unclassified information, you've effectively leaked highly classified information to well funded and highly motivated foreign entities.
[opinion]At the end of the day, somebody is going to find out about your sensor and it's capabilities. You just do everything you can to make sure it's well past the usefulness of said sensor, so far beyond that the understanding of this information nets the "opponent" nothing[/opinion].
As for writing software that would obfuscate this information enough that it wouldn't give away the methods of gathering it - sure, it sounds simple, and on a case by case basis, I'm sure you could do it. But can you do it for every single scenario even remotely conceivably imagined under the sun, for potentially large quantities of information, with guaranteed 0% failure rate?
If so, I'm sure someone would like to hire you!
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Satelites ain't actually invisible and they are also kinda hard to hide. What keeps me from watching the sky and telling when they pass overhead? Shouldn't take more than a few days and a halfway decent telescope to find out what's up. No pun intended.
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The question is "is that space debris? is that a commercial satellite? is that even WORKING?"
On top of that, I imagine they paint the things with a paint so that the don't reflect much light (just hypothesizing here, but I know I'd do it if I were them), to make it hard to see. Also, what about during the day?
If you figure every piece of space debris is watching you, you probably won't be doing much outside, ever.
The point is, someone is trying to put together information about sensor capabilities from t
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The question is "is that space debris? is that a commercial satellite? is that even WORKING?"
Well it's no moon!
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These sats are in geosynchronous orbit. In fact if the satellite launch detection system had a dark window where it wasn't getting coverage then it would be completely useless.
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Not at all. You keep them moving, and you make sure there are enough that you have no dark window. However, angle is still important.
Temporary (Score:4, Interesting)
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Not to mention the fairly recently [msn.com] demonstrated satellite killing ability on the part of the Chinese.. seems that keeping the location of new satellites secret for as long as possible would be a nice idea.
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Well of course it leaked information. After all, all an evil dictator would need to do is launch a missile, then wait to see if the launch showed up in the meteor report or if his country was turned into a glassy bowl. If the latter, try a different way of launching a missile.
On a more serious note, if you had a separate meteor detection system, you COULD identify the locations and such of the satellites by comparing your data. For instance, my satellite at location x picked up the explosion at time t.00
The info become classified (Score:5, Funny)
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You know that really pissed me off in the movie. Being an old comic guy, the whole deal was Adamantium was an attempt at Vibranium. It just ruined the whole damn movie up until the adamantium bullet which took the movie from aweful to just plain brain rotting stupid.
How the hell can you screw up Wolverine?
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How the hell can you screw up Wolverine?
You answered yourself: an adamantium bullet.
If that ruined the movie for anyone: you're welcome.
two words (Score:3, Insightful)
"north korea"
Simple Reason: (Score:2, Funny)
...they are hiding the Transformer invasion from us.
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...they are hiding the Transformer invasion from us.
God damn studio NDAs. Everything has to be a perfectly coordinated media campaign with those bastards.
Large UFO fleet of is going to visit us soon.. (Score:2)
Planet X (Score:1)
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You're kidding right? Man, Dec 22, 2012 is going to be a funny day.
North Korea (Score:5, Interesting)
I would think the problem is that North Korea is supposedly going to be sending a missile over to Hawaii. Perhaps meteor monitoring was simply a bad use of the satellites' time as the US military is gearing up to track North Korea's launch.
Doesn't seem too far fetched to me...
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Pretty sure the meteor information is actually just waste data. False positives that the military has to detect and catalog whether they are given out the information or not.
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I left comments on various sites, including this one [intensedebate.com] and some of my comments have been disappearing.
Isn't it an awfully big coincidence that the destruction of US dollar and these fears of NK nuclear bombs and missiles are happening at exactly the same time? I wouldn't put it past the US government to do with NK what they did with Iraq: create a lie and push it to start a war so that US could have its fleet in Asia. There they could 'protect the world from crazy NK' in return for the largest debt owner of US (Japan) forgiving most of it and creating enough threat for China not to try and call US on its debt (not switching from US dollar to some other currency, say gold.) I absolutely believe that US government, the real government - banks, insurance companies, credit companies, military contractors are totally capable of starting a war even a nuclear war to protect their currency and wealth.
A US destroyer was sent to NK shores, isn't that convenient, a single destroyer. They have cruiser missiles on destroyers now, don't they? The 'news' that NK was going to launch a missile at Hawaii came from Japan, and at about the same time Japanese Finance Minister Kaoru Yosano delivered a speech saying that Japan's confidence in US Treasuries and the US dollar "is absolutely unshakable", he also said "I have faith in the U.S. dollar's status as a reserve currency." So Japan props up the USD and at the same time supplies 'intel' that NK is preparing a strike on US territory? You make me LOL so hard.
Anyone remembers how Vietnam started? US fabricated bombing of its ship on the 4th of August 1964. In 2005 data came out from the US gov't that there was no bombing, but the Vietnam war started anyway. How did Iraq start? Saddam decided to switch from USD to Euro as main currency of payment for Oil. US has the largest military for a reason - to protect its interests, and right now its interests are protecting its currency. NK 'going nuclear' is a ruse, the real news are: US dollar is dying.
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>I left comments on various sites, including this one and some of my comments have been disappearing.
Probably because your tinfoil conspiracies have more holes than my 10 year old jeans.
>Isn't it an awfully big coincidence that the destruction of US dollar and these fears of NK nuclear bombs and missiles are happening at exactly the same time? I wouldn't put it past the US government to do with NK what they did with Iraq: create a lie and push it to start a war so that US could have its fleet in Asia.
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Except that Japan and China have even more to lose from calling in the United States' debts than the United States itself. Did you bother to see what happened to the world economy when the financial crisis hit the United States? China and Japan both have export-driven manufacturing bases, with their biggest and most profitable market being the US. It makes no economic sense for them to turn off the faucet by which the United States buys up their goods (and, employs a large chunk of their citizens). Also, as long as they hold the debt, they maintain leverage over the United States that would disappear if they called their debts in.
- yeah, yeah, US exports the green and China and Japan export their goods because what, China and Japan cannot consume their own goods that they produce? They are lead to believe this, but they are waking up and realizing that this is not the case.
US has 4% of total population and China has 20%. China is an emerging market and US is a saturated one. China sees job growth while US sees record jobless rates. China is manufacturing things that people buy and US is manufacturing paper that people want to
Coast to Coast? (Score:5, Funny)
So, this entire thread is essentially just a bait for idle speculation and conspiracy theories. Art Bell would be proud.
Or it could be (Score:2)
that we are preparing for a strike, counterstrike situation w/ N. Korea or Iran.
Security Risk? (Score:1, Insightful)
If the military believed that, given the meteor information, a black hat could deduce not only the capabilities of the satellites, but their actual orbits, that would certainly give them cause to discontinue the program.
Obligatory X-Files quote (Score:4, Funny)
CHIEF KORETZ: Sir, I have flash traffic at 24-18. Repeated calls for ID go unanswered. And it's not in the orbital or suborbital inventory.
MALE OFFICER #2: 24-18. Isn't that where...
CHIEF KORETZ: Same exact spot, sir. Although I am reading a much larger craft his time.
MALE OFFICER #2: Meteor, Ms. Koretz.
CHIEF KORETZ: A much larger meteor, sir. Hold on a second. (Putting hand to earpiece) We have a confirm. Whitmarsh Air Force Base is tracking...
MALE OFFICER #2: Where is it?
CHIEF KORETZ: Well, sir. The - meteor - seems to be hovering over a small town in Eastern Wisconsin.
My vote: Retasking (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it is probable that the military has re-assigned the satellites so that more are looking in the direction of North Korea and possibly Iran. It would make a lot of sense to point the satellites in that direction and keep it secret.
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Perhaps the wait is over... (Score:1)
Invaders! (Score:2)
Clarification (Score:5, Informative)
This is technically made clear by the use of the word meteor, as opposed to asteroid, but I only remembered that as I type this so I expect I am not the only one that could have used a clarifying sentence in the summary.
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Dumb question incoming. (Score:2)
Canada (Score:2)
Why does a Canadian professor expect free access to the byproduct of an organization funded by the American taxpayers?
Or... (Score:2)
Or...it could be we finally are going to have a crashing asteroid hit our planet, as everybody has been to the movies has seen already.
This is it, the end is coming, the end is coming....quick, where is my umbrella?
The dumber and more embarassing. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
The dumber and more embarrassing the various bits of conspiracy nonsense in evidence, the bigger and more remarkable the secret being covered up by the dissemination of said ridiculous bits of conspiracy nonsense. . .
The best way to make people look the other way is to make them cringe.
Psyche 1 oh 1.
-FL
Re:Expensive software? (Score:5, Funny)
You forgot the thousands of pages of architecture, systems engineering, regulations, requirements, and certification documents that support said code :-)
Re:Expensive software? (Score:5, Informative)
Your failure in design just cost your company a million dollars and several man-years of effort.
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Even worse two MiBs will meet him in the carpark and shoot him dead with a laser pistol.
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Your failure in design just cost your company a million dollars and several man-years of effort.
Does this mean I'm fired?
Nah, you've fulfilled government criteria for promotion.
Unless you object, you will be bumped up a level your salary will now increase by 1.5x.
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Once touched by a classified process, the non-classified data becomes classified, until you painstakingly prove that it is not.
Re:Expensive software? (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that size, temperature and speed will be variable within each type. Also, once you've identified the type of object, please determine classification. Accuracy of this product must be 100%.
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A meteor will not have a speed less than 11 kps outside of a capture orbit (not likely). No terrestrial-sourced object is going to reach that sort of speed with the expectation that it is going to land again.
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Remember that size, temperature and speed will be variable within each type.
Mod this post up - interesting.
My girlfriend told me that just the other day (although I think she was sparing my feelings)
Terrible bug (Score:4, Insightful)
if( object.type=TYPE_METEOR ) {
object.isClassified = false;
} else {
object.isClassified = true;
}
You just declassified EVERYTHING, including nuclear missiles.
Re:Terrible bug (Score:5, Funny)
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We paid for them.
"Classified" is too often abused, that includes things that perhaps should automatically belong to the General Public. Public funds used to pay for things that end up privately patented or copyrighted is also another form of stealing from the public.
Besides, if you have to hide it then you must be doing something wrong is a fairer assumption on a government then it is on a free person.
Are you arguing that the satellites that detect foreign missile launches and nuclear tests aren't actually related to national security, and their results should be publicly available to other nations?
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Don't apologize to them; they're already Texans.