Chimpanzees Exchange Meat For Sex 313
the_therapist writes "A team from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany, studied chimps in the Tai Forest reserve in Ivory Coast and discovered that chimpanzees enter into 'deals' whereby they exchange meat for sex. Among the findings are that 'male chimps that are willing to share the proceeds of their hunting expeditions mate twice as often as their more selfish counterparts.' They also found this to be 'a long-term exchange, so males continue to share their catch with females when they are not fertile, copulating with them when they are.'"
Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Insightful)
We formulized it and called it marriage though.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Funny)
Except the chimps don't seem to exhibit the signs of buyer's remorse.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Funny)
That's because they keep their women silent.
Or maybe it's because female chimps are satisfied with what they have, instead of constantly demanding more and more like little bitchy princesses! (sigh). No I'm not bitter. I just have this gnawing pain in my gut until I can feel the bile rising-up into my mouth. Or maybe it's just indigestion. Anyone have a tic-tac?
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Anyone have a tic-tac?
That depends.
How much sex will it buy me?
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Marriage is so that human females can continue to be fed while no longer having to put out.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Insightful)
Because otherwise it gets really boring at the restaurant waiting for your order to arrive?
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Insightful)
and there is really only one reason to take a girl out on a date....
It's comments like this that lend a strong argument as to why the stereotype of geeks never having girlfriends exists. Sex is great, and I enjoy it immensely, but I'd never consider it the "one reason" to be with a girl. It's great to share your thoughts with someone, have them share theirs with you; someone to laugh with, cry with; someone to look after you when you need it and give you the chance to look after them when they need it. My compatibility with a girl on ALL of these things is what I'm looking for when I go on a date with a girl, not just whether she'll put out at the end of the night.
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Someone on /. claiming to have had sex with a female without providing meat? Sounds like there are some serious philosophical questions to be avoided in this thread.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Funny)
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Having said that, your approach is probably
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Ah, but that's when you simply go for the "best of both worlds" and have an open relationship. I'm currently single, but when I had a girlfriend, I'd have sex with her, and also my close female friends. She had sex with me and her close friends (both genders). Now that I'm single, I still have sex with my close female friends, but it's a different sort of situation to actually having a girlfriend.
(for reference, we didn't break up because of anything sex related - that side of our relationship was very
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Funny)
and there is really only one reason to take a girl out on a date....
To bribe them to set you up with another girl?
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Interesting)
Quite often I've taken dates out to a nice steak dinner....and there is really only one reason to take a girl out on a date....
As for marriage...dude, you never marry them, it cost you half your shit when you want to upgrade to a newer model."
Wow...modded to hell.
Hehehehe...I guess there are many more women lurking around slashdot than we originally thought.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Funny)
Hehehehe...I guess there are many more women lurking around slashdot than we originally thought.
You mean there are two!?!?
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Insightful)
We formulized it and called it marriage though.
Nah men formalized it and called it prostitution. Women started thinking about how to get more and put out less and that's how we got marriage.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah men formalized it and called it prostitution. Women started thinking about how to get more and put out less and that's how we got marriage.
Actually, it was probably the other way around: men formalized marriage in an effort to stop women sleeping around. Stability of the tribe, and all that (alpha males still get to sleep around, beta males get a better chance of their kid actually being theirs, the rest have no illusions.)
Sometimes I wish I could forget everything I've read on primate and avian mating patterns, it would make my life so much easier.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Interesting)
Though as you mentioned, could also be that rulers insisted on monogamy from their mates to ensure that any offspring came from the right father. Always hard to confirm parentage if you don't have access to at least a basic lab.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Insightful)
Always hard to confirm parentage if you don't have access to at least a basic lab.
Not if you trace maternal bloodlines.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Interesting)
Small tribes and isolation prevented any bad repercussions for free sex.
In my 50 years of experience there are three types of women
* Those who hate sex (common and really sad- seems to last decades)
* Those who are extremely promiscuous (uncommon but more common than you think)
* Those who enjoy sex and are reasonably or totally monogamous (uncommonly for a decade, rare for a lifetime)
Based on actual experience, if you are not afraid of loss, the best partner is a couple days a week and then the rest of the time you do guy stuff. A full time wife/girlfriend can be stifling unless you make them your life. I've done it both ways multiple times. I prefer the fwb and free time. Since I have extra meat to share, it works. I've been in three ~decade long relationships and ended up gutted emotionally every time. After I quit that, I was much happier. But I do envy friends who made it work. Having a girlfriend, then wife from 16 to 26 was probably awesome and changed me since I never did the club hunting thing. But it was stupid to marry before I was on good financial footing. And once you marry/get a girlfriend, you can't do what you have to do to get set financially.
If I was religious, it would have been a lot easier. Religious girls *will* drop you after you and they are in in love-- because a) god comes first and b) "they are going to be in heaven alone for eternity while you are in hell and it makes them sad."
Worldwide (citation needed but exists), women leave men at a higher rate when the last born child reaches 5 years old. Regardless of culture, religion, or other factors. The theory was that genetically that is when the child can gather it's own food and walk around and there is something genetic about it. And that it is better to have children by multiple mates in order to maximize the odds your genes survive (for both sexes- but they use different strategies to achieve the goal-- I've read up to 10% of children's dna do not match their fathers in many areas, so that's another strategy- happened to at least one friend of mine).
The only problem is the damn legal system currently punishes men way out of proportion. I've even heard of men required to pay child support for children that were not theirs (they'd paid for a couple years and THEN found out the ex had been lying-- so do a quick paternity test when your wife asks for a divorce and save yourself some grief).
We all want to love and be loved in return-- and really, almost completely separate from that we want red hot noogie. In fact, the argument over who should take out the garbage gets in the way which is why some of the most incredible sex is with people you only see to get it on with. But (in my experience), you still have to know them well- the anonymous stuff never worked for me. Too cold.
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... I never did the club hunting thing ...
You mean like this [cartoonstock.com], right?
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Worldwide (citation needed but exists), women leave men at a higher rate when the last born child reaches 5 years old. Regardless of culture, religion, or other factors. The theory was that genetically that is when the child can gather it's own food and walk around and there is something genetic about it.
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense, you cannot use statistical inference in something like this, because the world is too small, and the factors too many. When you say "regardless of other factors" you have no idea how bad that sounds. "Other factors" considered by the survey, maybe, not in the real world. A single unkown factor, like intelligence of the father, or what the parents like to do on weekends, or relationships between jobs, can completely skew this thing one way or the other.
Also, the theory makes
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Last line was ugly. I meant to say:
Congratulations! You are a gentleman. Join our exclusive club! We party on Saturdays, and only get intimate with people we really like!
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Maybe I spent too much time at college, but I'd change your list quite a bit:
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Funny)
A slut sleeps with everyone, a bitch sleeps with everyone but you.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Insightful)
I've read up to 10% of children's dna do not match their fathers in many areas, so that's another strategy- happened to at least one friend of mine
Ugh, I can't say anything, but I really suspect this has happened with my brother's youngest. His wife got weird about the time he was born and then left him a little over a year later, out of the blue. The kid doesn't look like anyone on our side of the family, and has personality traits (like athletic ability) that neither side has. She cheated on him a bunch of times while they were dating, and then twice (that we know of) since they got married (they are, of course, divorcing now).
It's rough because, emotionally, he's already a wreck, and he has done most of the raising of the youngest and is a very proud parent. We all love that kid to death. But still... I just don't think he's "one of us."
I've decided to keep my mouth shut. Kid needs a family no matter what, and we like having him around. He shouldn't be punished for his mom being a dumb slut.
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To be fair, I left out the category who just has no interest (men and women).
If there is not resentment or emotional damage in the relationship, a hormone issue is often behind lack of desire.
When I went on hormones, it was like a lightswitch. Suddenly I had lust again, I could think straight, I stopped having night sweats, I started getting restful sleep, and I was a lot less emotional (I was becoming estrogen dominant). Since then I've furred up too.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Insightful)
Doubtful on the STDs: most animals use the "free sex approach" with minimal effect on fertility (actually, if an STD makes individuals infertile, that encourages sex with multiple partners.) Also, small breeding populations are not much affected by STDs: everyone is exposed, virulence is low. STDs go wild once you have big cities and travel (jets, wars, or pilgrimages, etc.)
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Funny)
My theory was that marriage was invented by mobs of ugly men. Or maybe by alpha males that were just plain shagged out and wanted a reason to cut down on the number of wives.
Either way, it works for me!
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Part 1 of your theory seems basically correct. The people stoning women to death are basically mobs of ugly men without wives.
Part 2 is a bit more problematic: how did they need to cut down of wife-count if marriage hadn't been invented?
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Sometimes I wish I could forget everything I've read on primate and avian mating patterns, it would make my life so much easier.
I can't count the number of times I've thought the same thing... No wait I can.
I always laugh.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I always laugh.... (Score:5, Interesting)
A woman whose body works well (no endometriosis, abuse issues, etc.) can climax every 2 to 3 minutes for an indefinite period.
The best a man can do is either edge forever, or train themselves to climax without ejaculation (came close but never succeeded myself but some do).
One huge piece of advice... get a massage table ($300). So much better than a bed. Soooooo much better than a bed.
You can adjust the height by inches (so you hit the right spots inside her) and instead of doing push-ups (every frikkin muscle in the body except the inner ear) for an hour, you are only screwing (so mainly abs, gluts and triceps). It is marvelous for all parties concerned.
Because of our weak egos, ladies do well who push those buttons. I can see when they are pushing my buttons and it still feels good.
Ladies in their 40's who didn't have something go wrong, like sex as much or more than younger women. I was married and monogamous most of my 20's so I don't have a lot of comparison in that age. In my 30's they wanted sex but a lot seemed to be screwed up by their previous relationships. In their 40's they knew what they wanted and went for it. I wonder what the 50's and 60's will be like.
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Ain't that the frickin' truth... :(
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We formulized it and called it marriage though.
Of course, if he shares his catch with another male chimpanzee instead of a female, he'll have to pay the gift tax and won't have legal recognition of their adopted young.
As we all know, the gays are going to zap us with lightning [youtube.com]. (Yes, that's a real commercial that's been airing on TV in several states)
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But due to genetic differences we have to use carbohydrates instead.
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If you mean e as in MDMA then no, it has the opposite effect, makes you huggy and friendly and not at all randy.
Wow (Score:5, Funny)
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I always thought there was something monkey-like between Sam the butcher and Alice... This just confirms it.
Re:Wow (Score:4, Funny)
I need to head to the closest butchers shop!
First, you might want to make sure that zoophilia isn't illegal in your state. :)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
I need to head to the closest butchers shop!
Before you drop too much on premium cuts, remember the article said the ones who gave meat gifts had twice as much sex. You might want to think about how much you have now and do the math before deciding if that's worth it. ;)
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Hello! Are you a mean person? You must be the mean person everybody's mother told them about when they were little. I'm going to scribble down in my slashdot diary, that slashdot devs have provided me with, that you are a mean person; so that I don't forget.
2x0? (Score:2)
Mmm, nope. There goes the hope of the meat industry to beat the credit-crisis!
Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Damn (Score:2)
Re:Damn (Score:5, Funny)
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Obligatory (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder how well this would work.... (Score:4, Funny)
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As long as the meat is made out of tofu.
In related news, PETA is taking donations to reeducate these chimps into changing their lifestyle.
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Personally, I buy beer that hasn't been clarified by anything, let alone piscean bladders.
(Unless it's "Treadmill",the mighty lager, with the world's first great taste of fish! Obscure Monty Python reference there)
Stuff rock stars (Score:3, Funny)
Butchers get all the chicks.
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"Laser Wolf?!? You're a fegala?"
"I'm a lonely man, Tevye!"
NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:5, Informative)
This behavior has been quite well documented in bonobos, which until recently were considered chimps or dwarf chimps. I'm not sure what makes this article newsworthy, except that we all like to read about meat and sex...
Try reading a copy of "The Hunting Ape" by Stanford... It's fascinating in covering hunting and culture in apes (including trading food for sex).
From what I've read, I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
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This behavior has been quite well documented in bonobos, which until recently were considered chimps or dwarf chimps. I'm not sure what makes this article newsworthy, except that we all like to read about meat and sex...
What makes it newsworthy is that despite what they used to be called, a Bonobo or Pigmy Chimpanzee is not a Common Chimpanzee. The article only says "chimpanzee" but quotes from scientists using the same term makes it obvious they're using the common name for common chimpanzee otherwise the
Re:NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I've read, I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
If they're using meat as a currency for reproduction, then it becomes a very valuable part of the diet. And supplying meat sounds just like the typical display of fitness ritual common to many animals' reproductive behavior.
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First you get da powah, DEN you get da money.
Re:NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:4, Funny)
I thought being high up in the chess club was a worthy display of prowess. Seems it wasn't. Who knew?
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From what I've read, I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
What about the protein gain for the female, exclusive of the male's effort? A higher protein diet would be a big survival advantage for pregnant/nursing females, as well as for developing offspring.
So the balance may be against the hunter (he has to not only hunt the meat, but also gather other food to offset the net energy loss from the hunting), but may improve the survival probabilities of the female/offspring, which would in turn improve the chances of the male's DNA surviving.
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I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
They might need meat for the same reason we do: essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals and fat that their fruit/plant diet either lacks or is deficient in.
I thought sex WAS the exchange of meat... (Score:5, Funny)
Bonobos (Score:5, Interesting)
I can believe this is a new discovery for the Common Chimpanzee. But for their close relatives the Bonobos, I saw documentaries decades ago showing not just the long term pair-bonding/mating-behavior related food-giving described in TFA, but outright prostitution. As in a male chimp comes up to a female with a banana in his hand, kinda tugs on her, she reacts neutrally, he hands her the banana and tugs again, they go off and have sex. And lest you hold on to the notion that this was still mating-related behavior, the sex in question was oral.
Ah, Bonobos [wikipedia.org]. Gotta love those crazy nympho primates. I could be wrong but I think the Common Chimp is closer to us genetically, but I think the Bonobo is closer to us psychologically. I was going to say socially, but I don't know many human societies where genital rubbing is used as a greeting or where orgies break out whenever they acquire food.
Re:Bonobos (Score:5, Funny)
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If you ever find such a human society, can you let us know? Thanks.
If websites that require a credit card don't count, then I'm still looking my friend. Still looking.
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I doubt this is new at all. Maybe a new discovery.
Um well yeah, obviously it's news in the sense of us discovering it, not that chimps suddenly started doing it.
Isn't this what evolution is based upon? The strong get laid, procreate and the weak don't get laid and don't procreate?
Sure, but not every animal or mammal for that matter used food gifts to express that strength to a mate, and we didn't know chimpanzees did, as tfa says. And it isn't necessarily the case that the ones that share are getting more
Re:Bonobos (Score:5, Interesting)
Part of what's new about this finding is that the chimpanzees are engaging in a long-term exchange, not just an instantaneous trade like in your bonobo example. The male chimp gives the female some meat now, and at some point later in time she mates with him.
This is interesting because the ability to engage in long-term exchanges requires some pretty sophisticated cognitive machinery that isn't necessary for an instantaneous trade. You have to keep track of who you have active deals with and what the running balance is, and you have to be sensitive to cheaters (and have an effective response, like ostracizing them) lest you get exploited. Evolutionary psychologists think that humans have special cognitive adaptations [ucsb.edu] to help us manage long-term exchanges. This study appears to present evidence of similar abilities in other primates.
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Eivind.
Different behaviour (Score:4, Informative)
The point of TFA is that outright prostitution does NOT exist. Giving meat does not produce results there and then and does not guarantee them in the future. It's not a pay-to-play deal.
What is observed with chimps is something far more interesting, as it shows an awareness of delayed gratification on the part of the males and of long-term strategies by the females.
Basically, meat is nutritionally high-value food compared to anything the females can get otherwise. This means that giving meat to the females improves the health and strength of the females. The female doesn't reward the male for the meat, but rather rewards the male for superior long-term care and support.
In other words, it's not an exchange, nothing is being bartered, and no individual gift by either side is connected in any way to any individual gift by the other. Instead, it looks much closer to long-term strategies by both sides where a move might be planned weeks or months in advance.
To compare chimps with bonobos is like comparing (theoretically intelligent) economists with stock market day-traders. I'd argue the chimps are actually smarter than economists, as chimps have fewer housing bubbles and the meat supply doesn't go bankrupt as often.
For all the primitiveness of the exchange, this indicates an extremely high level of intelligence that is beyond a fairly large percent of the human population. Humans do NOT do well on delayed gratification.
Oldest profession? (Score:4, Insightful)
Damn, we call it the 'oldest profession' and had no idea just how far back it went :P
Re:Oldest profession? (Score:4, Interesting)
And (Score:3, Funny)
Plank institute? (Score:2, Interesting)
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Germany has quite a lot of Max-Planck Institutes. Name association.
I at least got to work at a particle-physics Max Planck Institute, so it was appropriately named.
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Max Planck Society is the basic research organization that exists parallel to the universities in Germany. Used to be called Kaiser Wilhelm Society but was renamed after the war.
Monkey Business (Score:2, Funny)
They just have to very careful (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't this survival of the fittest? (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems an objective way to see if a potential mate has the capability of bringing home the bacon (sorry for the pun), thereby being a good indicator on whether the male could provide for a family that would result from copulation (unless they have safe sex ;) ).
If the male chimp doesn't have enough to share, he isn't probably very good at getting food - and you wouldn't want to propagate those genes. Did they check whether the chimps that shared the most also gathered the most?
So why is it being made to sound like prostitution, when it clearly is more like survival of the fittest - the female bangs the best male?
We're much better than that (Score:2)
...we throw in some flowers. Maybe a show.
rj
It's hard out here for a Chimp! (Score:2, Funny)
... with apologies to Hustle and Flow.
Let me guess... (Score:3, Funny)
Not new (Score:5, Interesting)
There was an article some years ago about monkeys (not sure if chimpanzees or not) being trained to use money.
Researchers taught them that discs of metal could be exchanged for food and such things. They got all sorts of interesting behaviors out of it, including the monkeys attempting to fake the money.
One uncomfortable discovery was discovering that some of them were actually using that money to pay for sex.
This seems even better than this one. Food for sex is a straightforward exchange. Tokens that can be used to obtain food for sex is more complicated, and shows a deeper understanding.
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This new stuff, though, is also showing that they're willing to give food NOW if they know they'll get sex LATER. Combine the two and you get the head chimp paying a salary to his "secretary" chimps so he can bone them when they go on heat.
Re:Not new (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/magazine/05FREAK.html [nytimes.com]
http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2007/05/monkey_economics.php [scienceblogs.com]
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/07/monkeys-practic.html [wired.com]
These links all point to the story, but not to any sort of brief from the research conducted by Keith Chen
http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/keith.chen/ [yale.edu]
Anybody know where that is?
Then the monkeys found Craigslist (Score:2)
Interesting... (Score:2)
For human males, the key is to avoid Marriage trap (Score:3, Funny)
For us humans, the key thing (at least for males) is to avoid the marriage trap. Outside of marriage, the resources-for-nookie exchange holds true at market rates. Imbalances are corrected by the laws of microeconomics.
But once locked in a marriage contract, a human male MUST provide resources under penalty of law, while the female is not obligated to do...anything. The predictable result is the epidemic of sexless marriages in the U.S. and other developed countries.
So, just beware the marriage trap. It's like signing an oil futures contract where you're required to deliver oil at $12 a barrel, indefinitely. You'd be a fool to sign either a $12/bbl oil contract, or a marriage contract.
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Having a good marriage is probably 25% likely.
But here's the problem....
Hubby or Wife asks spouse for sex and is rejected. Ego hit. And unavoidable.
Enough ego hits, and you just don't WANT to risk another rejection. Deadly Embrace condition.
Meanwhile, the guy or lady you see on the sly only at lunchtime on thursdays is there for *one* thing. If you are not feeling well, you cancel it in advance and no rejection. That sex is *incredible* over a long enough period. No rejections, no ego damage to your s
Maybe it's not an EXCHANGE (Score:5, Interesting)
Humans look at the male chimp's giving the female chimp meat as "trading" meat for sex, but there are a lot of other constructions that could be put on that behavior. He could just as easily be trying to assure that his offspring will be healthy. Or trying to assure the health and well-being of a female that he's come to care about.
The original article says that people had tried to find meat-for-sex exchanges in chimps before and failed, because they didn't give the animals enough credit for long-term planning. They looked to see if Chimp A gave meat to Chimp B, then had sex with her two minutes later, and they didn't find that. The current researchers succeeded because they took a longer-term view and counted meat-giving and sexual activity over time. But it's possible that they're still not giving the animals enough credit -- what if the meat-giving isn't trading meat for sex but is something else entirely?
Observations of primate behavior will never tell us anything until we learn to just report what we see the animals doing, then think of every plausible reason why they might be doing that, rather than assuming that the animals aren't capable of doing what we do.
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Ahh... yes. And the reason that guy is taking you out to dinner is because he's interested in the long-term survivability of your (future) offspring.
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Nope, no "deal" (Score:3, Insightful)
What they did find was that, "amazingly", chimps who were generous with their food, and shared it whether a female was up for sex or not, ended up gett
Any chimp who offers meat for sex (Score:2)
Chimpanzees Exchange Sex For Meat (Score:2)
There are two stories here. The johns are trying to get laid, so it suggests sex for pleasure, which is rare among animals. And the hookers suggest they are willing to barter for food instead of working to acquire it directly.
Maybe a third story, which is they are somehow able to come to an agreement over each party's responsibilities without using words, giving researchers hope that someday they will be able to visit hookers without fear of finding a cop instead.
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she knows what a monkey does for sex. she has two kids.
A monkey? In the White House? You're probably thinking of the previous occupant. [bushorchimp.com]