New Pictures of White Knight Two and SpaceshipTwo 195
soldeed writes "Over at the Virgin Galactic press site, there are new pictures of both White Knight Two and SpaceShip 2 during construction for media use. After seeing them, I can't help but wonder; Gee, what's in the box?"
What new pictures? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't see any dated newer than February.
Not new? (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed. I thought maybe these were newly published photos that had been held back from the public for a few months, but I've seen at least some of them before.
What's new here?
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As in, not very exciting. At least you get a complete picture on the front of a model's box. Yawn.
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The only new picture i've seen is this grainy airborne spy shot [flightglobal.com] that shows the wing attached to at least one of the booms.
I'm a little surprised that there are not more frequent progress updates from Virgin Galactic given the level of interest in the project.
My 2 cents (Score:2)
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Same old... (Score:3, Insightful)
As long as we depend on cigars with wings and chemical based propellants we will only inch our way along this journey. I had higher hopes for this crew.
Re:Same old... (Score:4, Insightful)
Such as what? The technology simply isn't there for anything else, especially not for the miniscule budget these guys have.
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Launch loops can be built without any unobtainium. Though it is still in government-funded territory.
Space elevators might have a higher cool factor than a launch loop, but I don't think it's going to be even theoretically cheaper by any significant amount compared to a launch loop. And a launch loop is still pretty cool.
Re:Same old... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's an interesting idea, but holy crap did you read the Wiki page on launch loops? [wikipedia.org]
It would have to be 2000km long. That would be a little bit pricey. And it would have to be built over the ocean because the momentum of the thing if it breaks would be equivalent to a nuke going off. I hate to go all George Carlin, but Not In My Back Yard.
Re:Same old... (Score:4, Interesting)
A rough estimate [launchloop.com] (pdf link to presentation slides, estimates towards end) puts it around $10 billion for a small system, and $30 billion for a larger one. Add on an order of magnitude to the price for government waste, and it's still pretty good. Better than the most optimistic estimates for a space elevator, and way better than rockets.
Building over an ocean (or rather, starting from an uninhabited island and extending over the ocean) isn't really a big deal. Baker Island [wikipedia.org] will do as long as we can deal with the pesky environmentalists trying to save its status as a wildlife refuge.
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Oh yeah, I like the idea of it. It's brilliant. And compared to the space shuttle it seems pretty affordable. But with needing exotic locations and the multibillion price tag, this project seems like something that you'd need to be a government to pull off. I don't see Virgin Galactic having this kind of clout.
These costs estimates are not meaningful (Score:4, Interesting)
Cost estimates for things that have never been build are not reliable. Your $30 billion number seems . . . conservative. Seriously, this is a large, dynamic structure. They don't really know how they'd put it in place. They don't know how they would confine the ribbon, or how reliable that system would be. With so many unknowns, you're really just pulling numbers out of your ass. Moreover, the odds that it is actually build-able are not great. The odds of it staying up for any usable period of time are much worse.
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Just out of interest, how long is the great wall of China?
We as a society have simply lost the capacity for large projects.
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Your sig is an awesome rebuttal to your claim. You do remember Apollo, don't you? That was less than 40 years ago. If you're going to invoke the Great Wall of China, a largely useless structure built in fits and starts over a period of a thousand years, then surely a pause of 40 is nowhere near sufficient.
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This is one of those things that sounds extremely simple in concept but turns out to be very difficult to construct in practice, even ignoring the ridiculous amount of money that such a thing would cost. It is therefore beyond current technology.
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This system could easily exchange mass between any two planetary surfaces in the solar system for a much smaller cost than chemical rockets. Of course for every kilo of food you send to Mars
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Your orbital mechanics professor must be so proud.
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Well clearly, if Zefram Cochrane can come up with a warp drive in a shed, these guys have no excuse.
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Care to tell us how he did it? You could build a spacecraft and launch it on a Titan II-class rocket if you so chose, but you can't make the drive work with the technology we have right now and our current understanding of physics. Once the tech improves, sure, you could build a spaceship in a shed -- that's essentially what these guys are doing here.
You won't use a Titan for it, though -- the last Titans have already been used up.
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On a related note, I seem to be getting mod points every weekend... when I have trouble finding things that need more modding than they already have. Too slow, I guess.
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What new space-alien-derived here-to-unknown technology where you proposing they use? This thing isn't headed for Mars, you know.
Re:Same old... (Score:4, Insightful)
As long as we depend on cigars with wings and chemical based propellants we will only inch our way along this journey. I had higher hopes for this crew.
You know, this is precisely the reason there are so few private companies doing this. People expect miracles, and when the miracles don't happen the public loses interest.
Yes, we need to invest more heavily in advanced propulsion concepts. However, we don't currently have any private manned platforms based on *conventional* propulsion, so how could you possibly expect this? You could never raise enough venture capital to do anything other than conventional craft, because the risks are huge enough as-is. That will hopefully change in the future, but people need to prove that this is even feasible first. The Virgin Galactic team is going a long way to demonstrating this, and they should be commended for it. And this is all you have to say? Seriously?
I shouldn't drink and post; it makes me care too much :D
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Yeah... Where the hell are those damn anti-gravity devices we were promised!
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That and one of the engineers who worked on the engine design, built a little one and put it on his bycicle, which now can hit 60mph in under 8 seconds.
If that isn't a giant leap forward for mankind, I don't know what is.
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No no no, you didn't allude to the proper movie line. It's not a cigar with wings.
"Well it looks like a big tylenol with wiiings."
http://www.moviequotes.com/fullquote.cgi?qnum=33100 [moviequotes.com]
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One must learn to crawl before one learns to walk. What magical technology should we be using instead? Reasearch goes on into new propulsion and delivery methods. In the meantime I guess based on your logic we should stop what we're doing until we have flying saucers.
The box contains... (Score:2, Funny)
After seeing them, I can't help but wonder; Gee, what's in the box?
It's the bomb that someone is senting up. After all, AYBABTU.
Seriously - the box (Score:5, Informative)
See the other one at the other end of the wing box?
See all the other, smaller weights?
Now tell me - you really couldn't figure this out for yourself?
You need to get out more.
Re:Seriously - the box (Score:4, Insightful)
He needs to get out more? Really?
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Now watch as I get modded down for talking sense.
Re:Seriously - the box (Score:5, Funny)
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I am a box, you insensitive clod!
Re:Seriously - the box (Score:5, Funny)
So you're saying there's nothing in the box? Absolutely nothing?!?!
Stupid!!! You're so STUPID!!!!!!
Re:Seriously - the box (Score:5, Funny)
So you're saying there's nothing in the box? Absolutely nothing?!?!
Stupid!!! You're so STUPID!!!!!!
Maybe there's a cat alive and dead in it...
Re:Seriously - the box (Score:4, Funny)
I hear red snapper is a very good fish :)
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The box is part of a practical joke that Richard Branson had planned for his engineers.
When someone opens it, fake snakes made out of cloth and springs jump out of it, like those fake peanut brittle cans.
Then Richard Branson comes out, and points his finger at them and laughs, and then points to a hidden camera, and said he is going to submit it to World's Funniest Videos to win a $50,000 grand prize to help pay off the cost of production.
Re:Seriously - the box (Score:5, Funny)
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O.K., but yeah - what's in the box anyway. (Score:2)
We still want to know - the orangy-pink paper seems so festive. Maybe the clamping weight is made of ground up Stradivarius violins, or the preserved hearts of virgin sacrificial cloned lambs, or.....unreleased copies of Duke Nukem Forever!
A little messy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been lucky enough to see Military aircraft being put together, space ships, and big commercial craft.
By comparison, that place looks like a freaking disaster area.
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You've no doubt seen metal production aircraft and over-paperworked metal and unobtanium space ships being assembled. White Knight Two and SpaceShip Two are both pre-production prototypes being built from composites, with totally different materials and techniques. You don't need a billion parts and fasteners, nor the cataloging system to track them when you build with composites. Also, trimming and fitting composites tends to be a messy business, when compared to punched and finished metal bits that onl
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Well, maybe the boss likes things to look tidier than they really need to be so he can do a VIP tour at the drop of a hat. This looks more like the workshops of a few genius inventors I've known. They simply scale things differently; they don't have different teams of engineers and fabricators working on different pieces, they do everything in one place and move back and forth between different aspects of the project.
Granted, the modular approach to scaling a project (split off a team for every major pr
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Except, they've already built one ship there already for quite a bit less than has been required in the past. Not everything requires clean-room conditions. But I'm sure if you asked really nicely, they might tune up your Pinto in between working on their flight-proven (in full public view, no less) spacecraft. Appearances can be, and are, deceiving.
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Have you ever wondered why a small shop like Scaled Composites is able to do things so cheaply compared to what Boeing or Hughes would cost? Well, here's part of your answer....
Not to mention, your experience with satellite manufacturing is almost entirely irrelevant. Satellites get launched once and then run for years, independently, in space. This thing is going to live out in the desert and get launched for quick rides into space a couple of times a week. They might as well get it dirty while they're mak
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Almost nobody has been around a manufacturing facility for this sort of vehicle. Unless your space-manufacturing experience includes something like the X-15, you certainly haven't.
There's an enormous difference between what's needed for an autonomous satellite that's going to spend years or decades operating in space, and a piloted vehicle that's going to spend minutes at a time.
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The space shuttle, for all its faults, was a far more sophisticated machine than anything that 'alt.space' has produced so far
Thanks, you've just summarized the whole freaking point of their efforts.
Musk has so far launched nothing that hasn't blown up in mid air.
I suspect that these companies could afford to blow up dozens of vehicles and still come in under a NASA budget. Meanwhile, they've learned volumes from each real-world test, instead of hinging the whole program on years of theory and simulation.
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I hate to pull this card out of my deck, but I work at Scaled Composites. All of your assertions about "Tools, crap, dust, old parts, probably even iron filings and plain old mud all over the place" are completely false. Cleanliness is absolutely essential when you need to bond composite materials, and we have rigorous procedures and quality checking to ensure that every bond is done correctly. There are daily inspections for foreign objects and debris.
We do not spend a zillion dollars on our facilities,
The box (Score:4, Funny)
"I can't help but wonder; Gee, what's in the box?"
Well it is a box being delivered to a team of physicists, I guess they wont know for certain until they open it :)
What's in the box? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What's in the box? (Score:5, Funny)
Space port with a box, it has to be: (Score:3, Funny)
A space port with a box laying around? Sounds like someone lost their parallel dimension. Quick, turn it inside out before they invade!
It is weight... (Score:5, Informative)
Those boxes are weight... About 15 years back I helped build a very ez [wikipedia.org] (Rutan's design too, btw). Construction was 'composite' materials - a bit of a radical chance from the way folks traditional built aircraft. You cut a lot of foam and put fiberglass and resin on it. The real work was making the jigs to get the right camber on the wings. You had to put weight on stuff to make sure it warped at the correct angle. With some parts, you had to do large chunks in one laying (is that even the right word?) of resin since it makes a stronger bond.
So you've won a trip into space (Score:5, Funny)
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What could be in the box? Boy, it could be anything! It could even be a space vacation!
Wait (Score:2)
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VSS Enterprise (Score:3, Interesting)
You know what this means: Next Star Trek movie will have a new ship [wikipedia.org] in the historical Enterprises display...
(Yeah, I know the name has been known for a long time, but just came across it now and couldn't resist.)
Burt vs. NASA (Score:2)
This is a lot more progress than NASA made on Ares I in the same amount of time.
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Apples and motherfucking Oranges!
For a start, SpaceShipTwo is simple a bigger version of an already tested craft, which was in development for longer than Ares I has. Second, Ares I is a much, much bigger vehicle. It will be able to heft 25t into orbit (not a pissy little suborbital trajectory)
If you are trying to make some point about private space flight being better, you should save it until they actually manage, 50 years behind those government agencies you think are so inefficient, to put men into orbi
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The real differenc
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What utter bullshit. There has not been a previous NASA vehicle that involved mounting a liquid fuelled second stage on top of a shuttle SRB.
What's in the box? (Score:2, Funny)
1: Cut a hole in a box
2: Put your junk in that box
3: Make her open the box
What's in the box? (Score:2)
It's the severed head of soldeed's wife. John Doe wins.
These pictures speak volumes... (Score:3, Interesting)
Those MotherShip pics are scary. For one, the work areas are very cluttered which could lead to confusion, errors, rework and overall inefficiency. It appears there is no system in place to ensure that all tools and support equipment are properly accounted for and not left in the ship. This could lead to foreign object debris (FOD) destroying the ship while it is in operation. The other scary element is the apparent lack of work stands or platforms for the mechanics. When a plane gets built, it is important to build work stands or platforms first so that the mechanics have a place to stand wherever they need to be. As you can see from the pictures, they are doing their work standing on ladders. In addition to the inefficiency factor mentioned earlier, this also leads to ergonomic and safety issues. A mechanic standing on a ladder can't do the same quality job as when both feet are firmly on a platform, especially if any riveting is involved. Oddly, SpaceShipTwo has platforms for their mechanics but the MotherShip crew only has ladders. I was actually interested in taking a ride on this until I saw the pictures of their work areas!
If anyone from Scaled wants me to come out and do a full-scale industrial engineering evaluation, feel free to contact me by replying.
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"cluttered" was exactly what I was thinking when I saw that picture. They're packed in there like sardines. Stuff's everywhere. Looks like it's hard to turn around and walk 2 feet without running into something or someone. It must take a lot of planning trying to move anything around in there, imagine someone trying to get a ladder to the middle of that room!
There's making good use of space and then there's overusing space. That room has long since crossed the line. Don't get me wrong, I wish them luc
One size does not fit all (Score:3, Interesting)
Those MotherShip pics are scary.
People said things like that about the Skunk Works back when Kelly Johnson was running the place, when they created the U-2 and SR-71. If we adhere strictly to your doctrine, those planes would be impossible. Yet they were built in those sorts of conditions, and remain incredible achievements to this day.
Turns out that if the organization has a lot of people who are truly amazingly talented, a lot of that corporate wisdom doesn't apply so much. Scaled Composites has the right combination of small size, c
What's in the box (Score:2)
I'll take a look and tell you what's in the box...my god, it's full of stars! DUN DUN!!!!!
"what's in the box" (Score:2)
"NOTHING, absolutely nothing! STUPID, you're so stupid!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KezvwARhBIc [youtube.com]
The only way space exploration will ever go... (Score:2)
All this bull****in' around with government space agencies, etc., is just a nice way to move tax dollars around in a shell game that in the end avails nothing.
You get REAL PEOPLE anteing up their own money for commercial space ventures, and the "high frontier" will finally become a reality.
(N.B. I live in Houston. It's impossible to get people here to see how useless NASA is. Living on the government teat will
Another Take on the Box (Score:3, Interesting)
The writing appears to be dimensions, the boxes are used for ergonomic tests to make sure the various black boxes inside the vehicle can go in and out the doors. This is typical Rutan construction with rounded cutouts to avoid stress concentrations, that works well in carbon construction because theres not much ductility in the material. Mockup fit tests like these are typical and sometimes work better than trying to simulate it in CAD.
There's a QA label at the top, the QA department has measured and labelled the boxes.
Admittedly the box looks like it's being used as a weight at the time the picture was taken. But not for bonding, I seriously doubt any bonding is being done in the assembly jig, or at room temp. On a craft like this the bonding must be done in an oven or autoclave and the bond prep must be done in a clean room which as has been pointed out this facility isn't.
From the look of the structure I believe this may be a non-flying prototype, at least the fuse and wing pods. But for limited production vehicles like this and prototyping shops like Scaled things don't always look high-tech pretty so it my be flight hardware, R&D often looks like this.
Not really space (Score:2)
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The accepted definition of "space" is higher than 100km. So yes, it is space. If you dont like it...well tough shit.
Re:Not really space (Score:5, Informative)
The problem isn't altitude, it's speed. The SpaceShipTwo will peak at 2600mph, which is in the same ballpark as the SR-71 but only 1/6th the velocity required to reach any sort of orbit.
It's still a neat craft, but it would need to fifty times as powerful to become a true spacecraft, capable or doing more than popping above the "space barrier" for a few minutes.
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Set down your comic books and pay attention. If Rutan et al had claimed it went orbital, you'd have some validity to your complaint, but they don't. It's a "suborbital" ship, hence 110 km, that's their only claim.
As one of the few non-governmentally planned-and-built space ships in existence ever to make (and *survive!*) the flight to space (not once but twice), give it a rest.
Oh, right, it doesn't meet *your* specs for a proper space ship. Well then, drop us a line when *yours* is ready to go into orbit
Your comment history says otherwise (Score:5, Informative)
As a 49 yo grandmother, c programmer and feminist, I find this offensive.
Oh, do you really? Just a few months ago, you told someone else [slashdot.org] to chill out when they were offended by a similar statement:
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And I say this as a 49 y.o. c programmer as well.
And on the next edition of 'This Old Troll' (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for watching today's troll, "Feminist-Mom." A classic but under appreciated troll, recognizable by the fact that she's been 49, a grandmother, c programmer, and feminist for the last five years.
On the next edition of 'This Old Troll' we'll be revisiting other classic trolls such as "Mare Sex" and "Consider Your Breathing." Thanks for watching!
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Well... I *am* a pilot (well ok, student pilot, but I am about 95% of the way through the course).
My first ever flying lesson was giving to me by a women who was certainly older than 49 and quite possibly a grandmother (I didn't ask). When you are about to take to the skies for a first flying lesson, and shortly before take off, you instructor finishes the final briefing with the phrase, "Ohh.. and here is what you do if anything happens to me up there...". You tend to notice stuff like age! :)
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I seem to have a tendency not to admit that there is such a thing as a tendency. But for tendency's sake I will admit that I don't fit the tendency by admitting that there is such a thing as a tendency. Sometimes I have a tendency to botch jokes on Slashdot and they get rated as troll by people who don't understand the joke as it has a tendency to go over their head.
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They need to be really careful with the names, since some believe that naming a ship after one that sank is an ill omen, or so I have heard. Enterprise is sitting in the Smithsonian as is the Voyager aircraft, the first to fly nonstop around the world (another Rutan design), and Cook's Discovery is famous (but as far as I know, no longer exists) but they'd best tread carefully around Columbia and Challenger. Seems to me it would be a nice honor for the astronauts who died, but some potential customers might
Re:Cool names? (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not familiar with the naval traditions of every country out there. But the US and UK, at least, (And those two have about the strongest naval triditions out there.) have no particular problem naming new ships after ones that sank.
After the first aircraft carrier iteration of the USS Yorktown (CV-5) sank after the battle of Midway, we named a new one after her just five carriers later (CV-10), and we have a guided missile cruiser in commission by the name right now. Also, the USS Indianapolis was sunk quite famously and horrifically. But we have a 688 class submarine with the name now.
Sometimes, the best way to honor a fallen vessel, is to continue its tradition.
cya,
john
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Rather, something inherently asexual in Star Trek fans, but I see that one just missed you like a supersonic jet,... ;-)
Re:Death Tube (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, given that Scaled Composites is one of the most experience builders of aircraft with composite materials I would expect that they know what they're doing.
It is kind of fun that it looks like they're building a spaceship in a big garage. Factories are not always what you think they will be. I used to work for a company that built mini-supercomputers. Our factory was surprisingly modest. I used to love that we would make the official stickers (you know, don't stick your fingers in here or you'll get electrocuted) with the laser printer and cut them out with scissors.
Re:Death Tube (Score:4, Informative)
I've seen a lot of molded plastic manufacturing facilities (mostly spa manufacturers or boat manufactures. . . or custom car parts). They all look just like this because they all do the same thing. They build plugs, then molds, then finished pieces. I don't know why anyone would expect this factory to be clean. They are always grinding and cutting and spraying. It's just not a clean process.
The important thing is they clean each piece before each step. It doesn't matter if some dust gets into the finished product, because it will be encapsulated in resin. As long as it's not too much, it won't have an appreciable effect. I know it's nice to think that it can be perfect and dust free, but it's just not possible.
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Since you guys clearly know more about this business than Scaled Composites, maybe you should go start your own composite aircraft company.