Internet Sites Biased Towards Supporting Suicide 358
Believe It Or Not, I Care About You writes "According to a new study in the British Medical Journal which examined the search results for various suicide-related search terms, the most common results supported or encouraged suicide. Wikipedia was one of the most prevalent sources of information, particularly on suicide methods, although the Wikimedia Foundation itself does not encourage suicide. Other studies have shown that media coverage has an effect on suicide particularly with respect to influencing the method chosen. Interestingly, this study notes that suicide rates actually decreased with increased Web usage in England, perhaps because support is readily available to anyone who wants it."
KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
People always tear others down to make themselves feel better. So to survive in society you either:
a)Do whatever you can to fit in, and be successfully according to the quirks of society.
b)Do what ever makes you happy and not give a rats ass about what others think.
c)flip out and/or lash out.
There are some people who can handle it and then there are those who proclaim life is horrible when they drop and break their ipod. Unless society itself changes nothing will change and considering society has always been this way... don't ever expect change.
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So I say: Good for you!Eenjoy your life, don't apologize for your good joss and pity those who can't figure out their own way and are miserable. Make it a challenge to not make things worse f
Re:KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
WTF? +5, insightful... here on nerd central? Of course the websites out there must be biased.
What's wrong with you people? Would you listen to a moron painting all the cancers of the world with a single size 200 paintbrush and asking all cancer victims to not pass off their dna? Then why single out the depressions? Depression is not anymore a disease than cancer is... it is a class of diseases. And while it may kill you, it certainly does not kill your drive to pass off your dna. What the parent is saying is just ugly and elitist.
Quoting from the American Psychiatric Association's response to Szasz [wikipedia.org],
What the parent has is just a false dichotomy.
While we might understand very little about the brain and depressions, our knowledge is nowhere as shallow as the parent implies.
Almost all forms of depression now have a provably strong physical component. Some forms of depression are more disabling than others. Some people are genetically predisposed to some. Some are treatable. Some depressions are like cancers and some are like untreated common colds. It is not for fun or glorification that some mental problems are considered medical disorders.
Re:KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
And here is another TED... Sherwin Nuland: My history of electroshock therapy [ted.com]. Here is what an extreme case of depression looks and feels like. I hope it gives you some perspective.
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Re:KILL YOURSELF FAGGOT!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Offtopic? (Score:3, Funny)
You got the wrong story. This [slashdot.org] is the one you're looking for
(Disclaimer: It's a joke, OK? Don't take it so seriously)
No surprise there. (Score:5, Insightful)
The desire for suicide stems from desperation, from having no way out, from not being heard or understood by anyone. The "support" of suicide provides those with suicidal tendencies with a way out, and gives them the feeling that they are heard and understood. This then decreases the actual risk of suicide.
Re:No surprise there. (Score:5, Insightful)
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You mean like the guy who tried to commit suicide 5 times by drinking lye, and failed each time? He then drank some Lestoil brand cleaner, and ended up at the Pearly Gates. Moral of the story - "It's so easy when you use Lestoil!"
Web sites encouraging suicide? That is so depressing - I think I'll go slashdot my wrists ... zzzzzZZZZZZ
Re:No surprise there. (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, at the time, British Gas were pretty forward thinking, and were signwriting their vans with the advert slogan of the day. So there, beside the ambulance and the police cars, is a British Gas van (it wasn't British Gas and I can't remember exactly the name right now), with on the side the company logo and "IT'S QUICKER WITH GAS!"
Yes, I know there's an urban legend about this. I have the photos. It really did happen.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No surprise there. (Score:4, Funny)
Résumé (Score:5, Insightful)
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns arent lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.
(Dorothy Parker)
Re:No surprise there. (Score:5, Insightful)
Out with a bang. (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, but when they do go out, they go out with one hell of a bang!
Re:Out with a bang. (Score:5, Interesting)
But brings up a real question: in the minds of the bomber, Is it really suicide?
Or is it on par with the (not suicidal) soldier that throws him/herself on the grenade to protect is platoon?
Re:Out with a bang. (Score:4, Informative)
The best source I can readily find is a documentary about suicide bombing ("The Cult of the Suicide Bomber", which is excellent, by the way), where the narrator interviews the family of Iran's most celebrated martyr, Mohammed Hossein Fahmideh.
Bob Baer:"I hope you don't mind me asking, but Hossein was the first suicide bomber, wasn't he?"
Family: "No, not at all. Yes, he did have a very strong belief. He was a martyr. It's impossible to describe him as anything else. A martyr through and through."
Bob Baer: [aside] "It's interesting, they absolutely reject the word 'suicide', even though there was a 100% chance that he would die. It just does not come into the vocabulary; he is simply a martyr."
Does that satisfy your curiosity?
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Citations please. The last time I had easy everyday access to medical journals, which was around ten years ago, I only found studies citing higher rates of suicide in Japan among the oldest people -- not the rest. Of course, any kind of suicide is still a suicide, but I'm just trying to clarify what seems t
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Kamikazes and seppuku committing samurai have nothing to do with modern suicide rates in Japan. Even comparing the age distributions, Japan leads in suicide rates by a wide margin.
Re:No surprise there. (Score:5, Funny)
Most of them are hosted (Score:5, Funny)
Nice to know... (Score:5, Funny)
Glad to see they cleared that up.
Re:Nice to know... (Score:5, Funny)
It is the Wikimedia Foundation's firm belief that every person contemplating suicide should in fact go through with the act. Every emo kid, poor person, mentally unstable person, SCO executive, Microsoft programmer, hippie, environmental activist, and President of the United States et al would do the world a great service by just ending it all.
External Links
Liquid Dran-O
Down Not Across
Knot Theory
Auto-Defenstration
NPOV? (Score:5, Insightful)
It thus reflects the rest of the Internet. If you want to join a cult, there's plenty of information out there -- the Church of Scientology has certainly staked out its own turf. If you want to have all kinds of crazy, kinky sex, there's information on where to buy Gor books, on how to safely suffocate someone almost until they pass out, or how, exactly, to apply a whip or crop for maximum pain but minimum actual injury...
And if you want to commit suicide, you can find out where to get a gun, and how to load it. Or how to hang yourself -- how to set up the drop to be quick and hard enough to snap your neck before you feel any pain.
And if you want to get out of depression, it'll show you all kinds of prescription pills, psychiatrists, meditation, or simply support groups to help you through it.
In other words, the Internet itself is neutral -- due to the sheer amount of diversity out there, what the Internet is to you is exactly what you choose for it to be.
Is that a good thing? Would it be better if Wikipedia actively discouraged suicide?
Oh, one more thing: What I've found to be effective is simply talking to the person. It doesn't matter what you say, or even too much how you say it. It matters more that you are there -- human contact helps.
A real example: Someone told me of her plans to commit suicide. I was sick of trying to help her with her almost daily threatening to do so. So instead, I asked her how she was planning to do it. And I criticized her for her technique, and brainstormed a bit with her on more effective ways of killing herself -- quickly, and without mistakes, so she wouldn't wake up in the hospital.
And after a few minutes of this, she broke out laughing at the absurdity of the situation.
Remember, kids -- anyone who really wants to end their life can do it, quickly, easily, painlessly -- or painfully, if they like. The fact that they are still alive and still talking to you means they aren't going to go through with it.
I can only wonder if the Wikipedia article could have anything like that effect... Or if it's just the opposite, if it's too impersonal.
self resolving problem (Score:4, Funny)
Unless you're a completely fuckup.
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Slashdot mods really are fuckwits
I guess... (Score:2)
This also highlights the importance of community.
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Are you sure? (Score:3, Funny)
Not even when it comes to their founder?
Biased study to begin with (Score:5, Insightful)
The researchers stacked the deck at the onset by carefully defining their search terms to focus exclusively on "suicide methods" (not reasonable other search terms, like suicide crisis, support, help, etc.) The one non-biased search term ("suicide") shows zero pro-suicide websites in the top 10 search results on the 4 search engines the researchers used.
Read my full response at the BMJ:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters?lookup=by_date&days=1#193559 [bmj.com]
--
Psych Central
psychcentral.com [psychcentral.com]
What are you going to search for? (Score:5, Insightful)
They should have asked that question of a bunch of recent suicide attempters first.
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Re:What are you going to search for? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What are you going to search for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really. If the potential suicide goes searching specifically for sites that provide ways to commit suicide, then it's hard to argue that it's the search engine's for finding sites that provide ways to commit suicide.
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Re:Biased study to begin with (Score:5, Insightful)
I see the good intentions, but they're treating a new age technology as if it were an older medium ("Suicide risks looking for methods clearly need help shoved at them instead").
I'll be frank here. If I were to search for suicide methods, and instead find myself inside a trap of help advertisements, I'd be sent even further down my path to kill myself because it's obvious I no longer have a say in the information that's provided to me.
Long comment short, the study was merely there for a pro censorship campaign.
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Re:Biased study to begin with (Score:5, Insightful)
When people are anonymous and dont know the person they are responding to they often will just pick the most extreme solution and go with it. It really takes a decent person to sit back and think of the person they are talking to as a real person, like a friend of loved-one. This kind of thing almost never happens on the internet and I am not surprised to see it when it comes to suicide. Hopefully, the people who are looking up those websites also pick up the phone to a suicide hotline. Funny, how something like a real human voice and real interaction suddenly changes everything.
I would commit suicide... (Score:2, Funny)
One question. (Score:2)
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protip (Score:5, Funny)
Stand at the top of a tall structure and make sure that there is something relatively soft below.
Tie cheese wire around your neck - tight enough that it won't slip off under tension but loose enough not to choke you.
Tie the other end to something solid on top of the structure. Make sure that there is a good six or seven feet of slack.
Now stand at the edge and glue your hands to the side of your head. Wait until your hands are glued solidly to your head.
Now jump off the structure. It'll only hurt for a second, when the cheese wire runs out of slack and slices through your neck. The overhang should stop you from bashing your now-severed head against the wall of the structure when the cutting motion jerks your body backwards.
This has the excellent effect of causing whoever finds your body to think that you have pulled your head off.
Re:protip (Score:5, Funny)
I'm an American and our cheese is "wireless" (as well as, arguably, "cheeseless") you insensitive clod!
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/2b/250px-American_cheese.jpg.jpg [answers.com]
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Quotes (Score:4, Funny)
Also, I believe the punishment for attempted suicide should be death. If you can't do it right, we'll do it for you.
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You gotta go after the ones to dumb to even try.
Just saying....
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On the other hand, if they know that every attempted suicide will be 100% successful (with or without government's assistance) then maybe - just maybe - they will consider other, less painful ways to ask for help? Like, maybe, filling a Web form?
Bad science. (Score:5, Insightful)
Obvious (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of us are familiar with the idea of 'going on living' and have no difficulty in breathing, eating, etc. All it takes to 'go on living' is to sit there and do nothing. It is not an interesting topic nor does it raise very many interesting discussions except for 1000-level philosophy courses.
Suicide, on the other hand, is an action with immediate and also long-lasting effects on the person (of course) and society. Suicide is something that has affected me very personally several times; I can tell you that even 5-10 years after the fact, the families and friends are still having a hard time coping. So it is clear that suicide is something that warrants a fair bit of attention.
As for the question of bias (pro- or anti-suicide) based on these web searches- I think about it this way.
There are many websites out there that will tell you how to build a bomb, or repair a boat hull, or repoint masonry. A huge portion of the internet is devoted to graphic images of sex that most people find repulsive (furries...). I don't think that it's been shown that simply viewing and thinking about a subject makes a person more likely to partake in that subject, unless that person never had any exposure at all previously. Suicide is not a new band or a potato gun or a case mod. People know what suicide is from a very young age. Anyone who has every thought at all has thought about suicide before, even if only intellectually and not as a solution. It is a myth that bringing up suicide and discussing it will push depressed but stable people over the edge.
Depressed people and the people affected by depressed loved ones can find a tremendous amount of information and support on the internet. I'm not sure what the point of this slashdot article was, but I believe that any and all information about suicide ought to be public.
-b
Re:Obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
Whenever people talk about suicide, we typically picture some really depressed person in a funk offing themselves.
But what if life really isn't worth living anymore? What if you're slowly losing your mind? Terminally ill? Old and sick? A threat to others?
There are forms of suicide that are not the sudden, "Oh they had so much to live for" kind of trauma you're talking about. I wish that were acknowledged more often instead of this ridiculous "culture of life" crap out there that fails to acknowledge that quality of life is important too.
Personally, I don't see the point of saving up my entire life just to pay part of my medicals bills in my last year or two of life. I'd prefer to save up to enjoy retirement.. preferably early.. and when I start really failing, ending it all on MY terms.
Sure I might feel different then.. but I might not too
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Methodology and Implications (Score:5, Insightful)
From the summary:
From the article, the search terms:
To me that seems to indicate that search engines are working, not that there is more pro-suicide info online than anti-suicide. For some strange reason I doubt most anti-suicide sites will include useful information on "best suicide methods" or "pain-free suicide." The same applies to the majority of the terms used. In fact, 11 of those 12 terms are specific to people looking for ways to commit suicide. Maybe the study should have looked for terms/phrases geared towards whether or not people should commit suicide. I don't know about you but if I am looking to research painless ways to commit suicide (for whatever reason) and I search for "pain-free suicide" and the majority of the results returned are not about that topic but about trying to discourage people from doing it, well the search engine was ineffective and I would be annoyed. I don't have any problem at all with search engines not being easily hijacked by people with a specific agenda of providing me some information I don't want (be it advertising or anti-suicide counseling) instead of the information I clearly do want based upon my search criteria. Maybe if suicide prevention groups don't like this they can do the same as commercial companies and buy some ad space.
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I doubt it. I do, however have a sudden urge to dig out a copy of "Heathers" and re-watch it.
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One would think that would be obvious. The problem is humans have a natural tendency to categorise things, and when a subject is controversial, it's easier to opt for comfort, and narr
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The problem is humans have a natural tendency to categorise things, and when a subject is controversial, it's easier to opt for comfort, and narrow those categories into classifications using emotional criteria.
I'm not sure how that relates to my comment. How does human classification of suicide relate to search engines that provide information that does not relate directly to the search terms?
Complexity requires thinking, and that demands a grasp of the issues and an ability to discuss those issues. By opting for the simple and comfortable we can dispense with all that and choose a position. Given that different people will choose different positions, we end up with a "for it" or "against" false dichotomy, from which arises erroneous notions of bias by the other side.
Again, I'm not sure I see how this relates to the points I made. People don't have to be for or against suicide in order to be searching for something like "pain-less suicide method." They could be either or neither or undecided or completely uninterested. Maybe they are just researching a painless method so they can ha
Result of longer life expectancy and medical care (Score:2)
Re:Result of longer life expectancy and medical ca (Score:2)
Okay, everyone knows what a .38 special is. I've even heard of a .44 special. What's a .45 special, or are you just referring to using a .45?
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Interesting. Looks like somebody cut down a regular .45 for use in those cowboy competitions. Thanks for the link. It's always good to learn something new.
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Do you personally want to work all your life and save every penny just to lose it all in last few days of your life (instead of giving it to your friends or relatives, or to a decent charity?) Besides, these last days will be enormously painful, physically and emotionally, because you know that death is close. It's pointless and cowardly to delay the i
Are people really that stupid? (Score:3, Funny)
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Given the rates of failed suicide attempts (>50%), maybe it is that most people are not smart enough to do research before trying to kill themselves. Of course intelligence is not the only factor as the psychology of suicide is very peculiar and one characteristic is people often choose methods that are foreign to them.
Most web users are using Windows (Score:3, Funny)
This is depressing. (Score:2, Funny)
Quick comment about support (Score:4, Insightful)
Just a quick comment regarding the intertubes usefulness for support. My mum died after her 12 year battle with cancer at the end of last year; I was stuyding externally so I could help take care of her as she was getting weaker.
In all honesty I don't know where I would have been then or now without the Internet. Within a few hours of realising the unthinkable happened I had people literally from as far away as Alaska and South Africa (I live in Singapore) sending their condolences and thoughts, it really was something else.Also I think people tend to think of support in the fairly narrow sense, don't underestimate the pleasent distraction and coping help you can get from tinkering with source code from your favourite FLOSS app or OS, say for example FreeBSD. Really got me through some tough times.
So where's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Pro" is not the same as "discusses" (Score:5, Insightful)
duh (Score:3, Insightful)
- search engines work well when searching for suicide methods.
- wikipedia is one of the best sources of information on the internet.
brilliant
Advertising (Score:3, Insightful)
Okay, it got me curious. If you go to google and enter pain-free suicide into the product search it provides five sponsired links and they are:
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Telling the Truth Doesn't Support Suicide (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe the increased availability of graphic facts about what the person is thinking of doing is part of the reason that fewer people are doing it. Maybe the prevention services aren't entirely effective, but don't want to compete with simple websites that are often more approachable and carry less stigma from private viewing than asking another person for help, or admitting that one is seriously considering that desperate measure.
The fear-driven conclusion that sharing information about a practice is equivalent to encouraging it, when that info includes the discouraging facts about it, has got to go away. It's an old coping mechanism for "dangerous" information that relies on centralized authorities, and the control of the info supply, rather than growing the ability of people to think about whatever info we come across, and protect ourselves from what we filter as "bad". This is the Info Age. We've got a lot of growing up to do. Because the info flood is only going to gush more strongly, and only learning to think for ourselves can protect us.
It's rampant at Kuro5hin (Score:5, Insightful)
I have schizoaffective disorder [geometricvisions.com]. It's just like being manic depressive and schizophrenic at the same time. One of the symptoms is severe depression: I have attempted suicide twice. There were several years where I was almost continuously suicidal. It was quite a grim existence.
I also know now that depression is actually a delusional state; feeling that life is not worth living is no more real than regarding oneself as the Emperor of France. It can almost always be effectively treated, and often cured completely.
I have found many times that the antidepressants I take for it (imipramine these days) have the effect of changing the behaviour of other people [www.geometricvisions], making them friendlier towards me. Strangers are more likely to strike up conversations with me when I'm medicated.
I'm not kidding! I'm absolutely serious.
and that's not all! (Score:3, Funny)
Vista Suicide (Score:2)
Obligatory Maddox (Score:3, Funny)
Those awful internets! (Score:2, Funny)
Odd beliefs about suicide (Score:2)
this study notes that suicide rates actually decreased with increased Web usage in England
But here they put people in jail for posting information on suicide. Land of the free, provided you're not contemplating ending your life. And the apparent irony never seems to dawn on anyone. If someone really wants to off themselves, what's the problem?
If we really had a free country people would be able to kill themselves and broadcast it on national TV.
Sort of like a political ad I saw tonight where the c
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Sort of like a political ad I saw tonight where the candidate proclaimed he was "pro life and pro gun". I'm not entirely sure how you reconcile those positions.
Perhaps by noting that a gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen can protect the lives of that citizen and their loved ones from violent criminals. It's a very pro-life position to assert a right to self-defense, even if that defense may involve potentially lethal force against your attacker.
(This is not to say guns aren't without their own dangers - the risk of accidental shootings is higher than the chances it'll save you, at least in many parts of the country. But that's a tradeoff that's going to be
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(This is not to say guns aren't without their own dangers - the risk of accidental shootings is higher than the chances it'll save you, at least in many parts of the country.
When comparing the number of negligent shootings (I refuse to use "accidental", as there's no such thing) to intentional self-defense shootings, the former is indeed higher.
There are no measurable statistics on the number of times that the presence of a firearm prevented a crime, because no one compiles them (even from police reports). However, even the smallest estimates from surveys far exceeds the number of negligent shootings.
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That's because you apparently interpreted "pro-life" literally, inadvertently or otherwise.
"Pro-life" is a political term for "opposed to legalized abortion", just as "pro-choice" is a political term for the opposite view.
Flamebait? (Score:5, Insightful)
jdb2
Re:Slow To The Story (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slow To The Story (Score:5, Funny)
Sometimes multiple times.
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Re:Darwinism (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, I do believe that people who genuinely want to die and who have carefully worked out their reasons for this desire, after considering and rejecting the alternatives, should be allowed to do so. In particular, if I were dying of something that would inevitably kill me slowly and painfully (or worse, destroy the person I am long before my body dies, like Alzheimer's) then I would very much hope that I could find a sympathetic doctor to hook me up with some, ah, special medications.
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That wou
Two Favorites (Score:2)
Okay I have to favorites I read long, long ago.
#1 - take a six shot revolver and six cartridges (bullets). Load 5 cartridges into the revolver and set to one side. Take the remaining cartridge and place it on a table in front of you. Slam your forehead down on it with all the force you can muster. Hopefully die knowing you will have confused the hell out of the forensic guy.
#2 - obtain a trenchcoat and some explosives; pipe bombs or dynamite with shrapnel attached or whatever. Use detonators or get good a