Study Proves Having Fat Friends Makes You Fat 693
Xemu writes "Having fat friends makes you fat, researchers from Harvard Medical School and the University of California says after after examining 12,067 individuals and 38,611 of their relatives and friends. In same-sex friendships, people were 71 per cent more likely to put on weight if a friend of theirs became obese. "It's not that obese or non-obese people simply find other similar people to hang out with. Rather, there is a direct, causal relationship," says Harvard professor Nicholas Christakis."
Old news (Score:5, Funny)
Shame on you! (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah man, now we know who the big dogs are now. Yep.
You fail it (Score:5, Insightful)
It's truly dumb to make it sound like you're outraged because the study says your fat friends will make you fat if they touch you.
Yeah, right. Something has changed. (Score:4, Interesting)
If all your friends eat greasy burgers and pizza and have beer and then plop down to watch the game, you are likely to do the same to fit in.
Like people have not been doing that for the last sixty years. You can't tell me that all of the sudden 75% of the country is doing this and that is responsible for the fat epidemic that's happened since the 1980's. Something's changed and it's not football.
The most likely culprit are changes to food allowed by the Nixon administration, which include allowing high fructose corn syrup. Compare these two graphs side by side:
Re:Yeah, right. Something has changed. (Score:5, Informative)
EVERYWHERE foods potions have gotten larger. Few people realize that A.) It takes 10-15 minutes to feel full. B.) Thirst is often mistaken for hunger C.) What tastes awesome (like McDonalds, candy, steak, etc) isn't an acceptable meal choice. Eat a pack of star-bursts over 2-3 days, not 10 minutes.
Basically, people are either too ignorant, apathetic, or lazy to make good nutrition choices. You really shouldn't even give little kids that much juice, becauses its nutritional content (high simple carbs) is similar to soda-pop.
BTW, all this came from the M.S. nutrition teacher I had last semester.
Re:Yeah, right. Something has changed. (Score:5, Insightful)
HFCS is no worse for you than sucrose, and because it is sweeter than cane sugar per calorie, it may even be better.
The real answer is that calorie consumption has increase over 20 percent since 1980, and physical activity has probably decreased during the same period.
Check the graph on page 3:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/FoodReview/D
People always like to place blame on external target rather than looking at the real problem, that people eat too much. It's easy to blame HFCS (though its no worse than sugar) or fatty foods (though many countries eat much more fat than we do yet don't get fat). Much harder to look at the situation honestly and say that we are a bunch of lazy gluttons.
'It's all the fault of Nixon and that damned HFCS!' Is a great feelgood answer that doesn't hurt anyones feelings, but it simply isn't the truth.
Re:Yeah, right. Something has changed. (Score:4, Informative)
But what has really convinced me was the weight loss that some of my friends experienced from eliminating HFCS from their diets. I've made the same dietary a couple of months ago. I now buy the somewhat more expensive Coke made in Mexico that Costco and I find other alternatives to products that use HFCS (it's somewhat disturbing how many products use it). In 2 months, I've lost 15 pounds so far. I don't exercise any more than I did before and I still eat a ton of fatty foods.
ADM can continue to fund bogus studies that show that HFCS isn't any worse for you than cane sugar, but I'm never going back. I'm feel healthier and have more energy since I've changed my diet. I have yet to meet anyone who's given up HFCS who doesn't see similar results.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What is the Glycemic Index?
Not all carbohydrate foods are created equal, in fact they behave quite differently in our bodies. The glycemic index or GI describes this difference by ranking carbohydrates according to their effect on our blood glucose levels. Choosing low GI carbs - the ones that produce only small fluctuations in our blood glucose and insulin levels - is the secret to long-term health reducing your risk of heart disease and diabetes and is the key to sustainable we
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Also remember that in the late 1800s the average per capita consumption of sugar was on the order of 2 pounds per YEAR. Now we're close to that per week.
Re:Yeah, right. Something has changed. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Since the 80's, Big Food Has Been Killing YOU. (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a simpler explanation - fat people seek out fatter people as friends, so they won't look so fat when they stand beside them.
You might laugh, but its true. Fat people can't easily strike up friendships with skinny people. They don't do the same things. How is a skinny person going to play tennis with a fat person? Or long walks? Or roller blading? Or riding a bike? Or even long shopping trips at the mall ... Or anything else that doesn't involve sitting more or less motionless ...
So fat people hang out with fat people, both because they are looking for assurance that they themselves aren't as fat as some other people, and because they don't have all that many options.
So of course, when you get fat people together, they reinforce each others habits of inactivity and over-eating ... so yes, fat friends will make you fat(ter).
BTW - if you're fat and don't have any friends fatter than you, you're the one that fat people want to stand beside when its time to take pictures. Time to cut out the crap food, the too-big portions, the second helpings, and start starving yourself, because nothing else will work. And no, you don't have a glandular problem - you got that way one bite at a time, just like everyone else.
Re:Since the 80's, Big Food Has Been Killing YOU. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you make exercise a daily thing, you can enjoy a very healthy appetite. For all beer drinkers out there, some of the new low carb ones are phenomenal stuff - we've got Carlton's Pure Blondes in Australia and they're great.
About the beer thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Since the 80's, Big Food Has Been Killing YOU. (Score:5, Insightful)
The most difficult thing is always, always the psychological factors. Starvation dieting with minimal protein intake and fruits/veggies etc to maintain lean body mass is actually incredibly effective. However, the adherence rate is quite low. Your brain only has so much self-control, and using self-control in one thing has been shown to diminish it in others in studies, thus making some behavior more impulsive/avoidant, which can certainly cause problems with diet and exercise.
Physiologically though? It can be quite effective. Psychologically, probably quite difficult unless you're railing a lot of coke.
One thing I have learned is that the physiology of weight loss is almost irrelevant; it is all about the psychology. Transforming like of bad food to not like, transforming not like of good food to like, transforming not like of physical exertion to like, transforming like of sedentary activity to not like. But at every turn, the brain itself resists change and makes this a very difficult struggle.
As the saying in KOTOR went, "passion gives me strength." I think passion for what you want, and passion for every step along that path is key, because if you hate it and just want to continue doing what you've always done, you will is going to fail and you won't be able to do it consistently.
But actually creating genuine passion for something you don't like, and diminishing that for what you do like, now that's a bitch.
BUT I'M STARVING! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:BUT I'M STARVING! (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BlK62rjQWLk [youtube.com]
Re:BUT I'M STARVING! (Score:4, Funny)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uRslmSM7R8A [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:BUT I'M STARVING! (Score:5, Informative)
It's just an easy way to get a general assessment. Body fat percentage, resting heart rate, heart rate during exercise, etc., are much better metrics of one's overall fitness and health.
Lunch, eh? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Lunch, eh? (Score:5, Funny)
I think... (Score:5, Funny)
Monkey See, Monkey Scarf (Score:4, Funny)
Dammit, now
Its a defensive thing... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Its a defensive thing... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Its a defensive thing... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm not worried, because I have a plan. When the fat people come and try to crush me, I'm heading to the nearest stairwell. I'll go up one, maybe two, or even three floors. 30 minutes later, when the fat people have made it to the top of the stairs and caught their breath again, I'll have had time to set a buffet table to draw them off my trail. Finally, I'll go wait out the attack in the perfect hiding place, somewhere it'd never occur to them to go in a million years: the gym.
The whole thing will probably unfold much like a zombie film, only in slow motion and with more labored breathing but approximately the same amount of grunting and moaning.
Just great... (Score:5, Funny)
why can't it work in reverse? (Score:2, Interesting)
No, this is a correlation. (Score:2)
yes but... (Score:5, Funny)
Friends/Family Influce People, Doen't CAUSE (Score:5, Insightful)
People's "intelligence" on this issue continues to amaze me. What does AA tell you to do? Stop hanging out with alcoholics because you are more likely to repeat your behavior if you do. What does NA tell you to do? Stop hanging out with druggies because you are more likely to relapse. If you go to OA (Over-eaters Anon.) I'm guessing they tell you something similar.
People follow their peers to a degree. People gain some weight, their friends see it and lose a little stigma of gaining weight, so they do, and the cycle repeats. If you are fat, you are more likely to hang out with other fat people. Thin people are more likely to not eat as much as you. They are more likely to give you a look for complaining about gaining weight while stuffing your face. Other fat people are likely to sympathize with you. After all, to tell you otherwise would be hypocritical (if they don't follow it) or "mean" (if they are working on it).
Do you wonder why when you see families at malls they are usually all thin or all fat? It's not genes. Maybe that contributes some, but mostly it is diet. If the mom cooks healthy most of the time, the family will be exposed to that very often. If the dad exercises a lot, the kids and mom will be exposed to that. If they just buy fast food and junk all the time and snack lots, the kids will learn those behaviors. I'd bet the relation between close relatives in the same house is about the same as the relation between adoptive parents and children. The habits the kids/family learn are a huge part of things.
I've lost a ton of weight. I didn't have a lot of tolerance for this before, and I'm losing what I have. The causes of obesity are not a mystery. They have been known for a LONG time. There are recent things that contribute (fast food, maybe HFCS, etc), but it is still no mystery. I'd peg it at mostly willpower and intolerance of anything that isn't fun or easy or doesn't feel good; an attitude that is becoming more and more common.
Our attitude has changed. Being fat is much more accepted now. People complain about the "unfair standard" on TV, but it's not like you have no choice. I'll agree the near anorexic models are not realistic, but more and more people seem to be moving into "the blob" territory. I've seen more than a few ultra-obiese people on scooters recently, something I don't remember seeing even 10 years ago.
It's people's fault. For most people it isn't fate. I see people who want to lose weight. Lots. Just about all complain. "I can't lose weight." Yet they continue to not exercise (or they do for about a week and then give it up). They either don't change their eating habits, give up the change after a week or two (which actually makes things worse for you), or change to eating "healthy" and end up eating constantly so the calories are just spread out over the day instead of in 3 huge meals. You don't need gastric bypass surgery. You don't need a miracle diet drug. You don't need a new diet food.
To use make my point in an extreme way, how many people in bad POW camps were overweight. How many in areas with food shortage problems? How many people in the old prison work camps or working in coal mines were overweight? Basically none because these people either got very few calories, or burned a ton. Now some of these fates are horrific, but it proves that basically anyone can lose weight. These days there are only a few people who I would excuse from this requirement, and those are some people on very serious prescription drugs that have strong side effects.
What does diet food do any way? As diet food became more common, people ate more of it. Each cookie may have had fewer calories, but a great many people made up for that with quantity. If someone did invent another miracle pill (something akin to Fen-Phen without the problems), I'm guessing most people would eventually start to gain weight again because they would start to eat more later. I think this is just like how many people who pay off debt with 2nd mortgages get back into debt.
Re:Friends/Family Influce People, Doen't CAUSE (Score:5, Insightful)
But changing your actions can be difficult. Changing your whole life so you are "healthy" is a lifelong process. You can't do it in a day or a week or a year. It happens slowly over time. Trying to do more than you can do right now will do more harm than good.
I don't know if it will help anybody, but I'll leave some advice that's helped me in the past.
First, accept where you are. If you are 350 lbs, then you are 350 lbs. There is nothing in the world that can change that right now. In the future, your actions can have an impact on your weight. But nothing you do will affect your weight in the present. So relax. Life is still good. Get on with it and don't worry about it.
Second, measure yourself every day. If you are interested in your weight, then get a scale and step on it every day. Don't do this until you've finished step 1. If you can't look at your weight without being disgusted, then you can't improve. You *must* accept where you are and merely record your weight.
Third, pick some exercise that you can do and do it 6 days a week. I like running. If you are really heavy, then biking or swimming might be better. It doesn't really matter what you pick. But understand that the lower the intensity (i.e., the less energy it burns) the more time you have to do it. Try to find someone experienced to help you. The Running Room has free running clinics around here which are very good. Or you can do some sports at a community center very cheaply. The important thing is to do it *every day* (Well, I allow one day of rest).
When doing the exercise, start with an intensity and duration that makes you very tired. Every week add 10-15% to the duration. Adjust your intensity so that you are at about 80% exertion level (hard to guage when you first start, but you'll figure it out over time).
Fourth record your progress. If you are able to increase the duration and intensity every week, keep going. If not, back off for a week. It is possible to overtrain.
Fifth learn the difference between "Good hurt" and "Bad hurt". Talk to people who know about your sport. Understand what the difference is for your sport. "Good hurt" is something that's sore that won't lead to
injury if you continue to train. "Bad hurt" is something that is getting injured as you train. For a variety of sports, it's difficult for a novice to tell the difference. Make sure to keep training even if you have "Good hurt". Take a break if you have "Bad hurt".
Note: At the beginning you will almost certainly experience a lot of "Good Hurt". Don't let it stop you. Push through it. It *does* go away. For running I find that you can start getting good runs somewhere in the 3rd week. If you have only tried exercising regularly (i.e. 6 days a week) for less than a month, then it's possible you have never experienced a good training day. Keep it up for at least 2 months before you decide you don't like the sport. It's easy to switch sports at that point anyway.
Six keep track of what you are eating. Writing it down is fine. Don't worry so much about it. But make sure you observe what you eat. Pay attention to it. As you continue training, the diet will often take care of itself. I've observed this many many times. I don't know why it works, but it does. As you start to train harder and harder, you will often start to eat much better. I don't know why.
Seven expect to ultimately be spending 1 to 2 hours a day training. Your final level will ultimately be determined by your interest. But that's a reasonable amount. Of course when you first start, that amount of time seems completely impossible. That's why you start small and increment by 10%.
Expect it to take 4-6 mon
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Congratulations! You became a bitter, self-hating prick when you were chubby, and have transferred those self-hating feelings onto people who remind you of the way you used to be.
Our attitude has changed. Being fat is much more accepted now. People complain about the "unfair standard" on TV, but it's not like you have no choice.
Being gay is much more accepted now. Being black or Jewish is much more accepted now. I don't want to get into the "matter of choice" distinction--most people aren't clever enough to make that distinction to begin with, so that's not a factor in this. We're just more tolerant of those who are different than we used to be. And ye
Absence of friends does not correlate (Score:5, Funny)
A better story: Fructose and Fibre (Score:5, Informative)
This on the other hand is a much better story:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/200
It's an interview with Dr Robert Lustig, Professor of Pediatric Endocrinology at the University of California, San Francisco. He says, yes, we're getting fat, but the question is why our bodies don't enact a defense against this. One of the culprits: Fructose (Corn Syrup) which food and drink manufacturers have been putting in everything. Your body has real problems regulating this. Fructose with Fibre is ok (an Orange), but without Fibre it's very bad (Orange Juice). Apart from the vitamins, you might as well be drinking pop. Very interesting link: transcript and MP3.
Obesity != virus, disease, etc. (Score:4, Insightful)
Obesity is a condition based on the terrible BMI chart, which was NEVER meant to be used the way it is today. It's more of a vague approximation.
What Obesity really is is a symptom. Obesity is NOT the cause of all those health problems that doctors try to blame on it (which is just about everything these days). The only thing that Obesity would cause is join pain in the knees and other things like that that actually make sense. Diabetes, high blood pressure, heart problems...they're all from poor nutrition, lack of exercise, and genetics, NOT from being "overweight."
It's perfectly possible to be "overweight" or even "obese" (according to the all-knowing BMI) and be perfectly healthy. The diet industry would just like you to think otherwise, and spend your life unhappy, looking for an answer to this "problem" that they've convinced society is the worst thing possible
What percentages of diets fail? Now remember, failing means either giving up, or putting on at least 80% of what was lost?
Try 95%. And often, failed diets result in MORE weight put back on. Your body senses the diet as a lack of food, and over a period of yo-yo dieting DECREASES your metabolism. Yo-yo dieting is definitely more harmful than if you stayed at the same weight.
Just eat healthier, get some exercise, and learn to love your body, no matter how it looks. It's not about inches or pounds, it's about the crap INSIDE your body working the way it should.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
More eurocentric bollocks from someone who probably thinks Discovery is some sort of substitute for an education.
In much of sub-Saharan Africa and in the Pacific Islands, fat (and even obesity) is traditionally considered a mark of beauty, health, wealth, fertility and status.
It was even so in Europe, not so many generations ago. Go back and look at some renaissance paintings - Botticel
But wait... (Score:4, Funny)
Here's TFA (and the graphics *and* software) (Score:5, Informative)
But you can too because they apparently put it on the Internet free0 [nejm.org]
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/37
New England Journal of Medicine
The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years
Nicholas A. Christakis, M.D., Ph.D., M.P.H., and James H. Fowler, Ph.D.
357:370-379 July 26, 2007
Slashdotters will no doubt be interested in the Kamada-Kawai algorithm in Pajek software which is used to generate the social network images like this one http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/370 /F1 [nejm.org] Networks are where it's at today.
They had 12,000 subjects (from the Framingham Heart Study) who had filled out detailed questionnaires, including the names of people (often also in the study) whom they regarded as friends. They compared friends, spouses, siblings and neighbors.
There were 3 kinds of friends: (1) I consider you my friend, and vice versa (2) I consider you my friend, but you don't consider me your friend (3) You consider me your friend, but I don't consider you my friend.
The strongest influence was on mutual friends. In case (2), if you were fat, you would influence me, but not vice versa.
They tried to prove that it was a causal effect, and not just an association, by watching to see what happens over time. If friend A gets fat, friend B gets fat a year later.
Mutual friends had the strongest influence. Women friends had a stronger influence than male friends.
Opposite-sex friends had no effect on each other.
Siblings had an effect on each other. But same-sex siblings had the strongest effect, and opposite-sex siblings had the least effect (almost none).
Spouses had a slightly weaker effect. (Which is surprising if you expect them to eat the same food.)
Neighbors had no effect on each other. So it has nothing to do with the driving distance to Macdonalds.
You could run that social networking analysis program on Slashdot.
Just accept it. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Fat friends with benefits (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Fat friends with benefits (Score:5, Insightful)
Insightful Breaking news!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Fat friends with benefits (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Fat friends with benefits (Score:5, Interesting)
No, nor does having fat friends (Score:3, Insightful)
Way to go, samzenpus. Slashdot, sigh.
Re:No, nor does having fat friends (Score:5, Funny)
You've fighting a strawman. (Score:5, Insightful)
As for me, my personal experience leaves me inclined to trust this study's results. When I was in college, I lost a lot of weight without consciously thinking about it (or changing my diet, which was dictated by my personal finances, and thus fairly constant, at the time) when I was chasing after a thin woman, to the point where some ex-roommates referred to me as "half of Duff" when meeting me in the library; that trend ended roughly when our friendship became more distant and I was less focused on getting her attention.
So -- I'm perfectly willing to believe that, in the absence of other factors, hanging out with thin people makes it easier for one to lose weight without making conscious decisions to do so, and that hanging out with fat people gives one a predisposition towards gaining weight. Obviously, neither of these is foolproof -- failing to exercise will have a bigger influence than hanging out with thin people, and planning one's diet carefully will have a bigger influence than hanging out with fat people -- but that's not to say that this isn't a legitimate influence, and well worth knowing about.
Re:No, nor does having fat friends (Score:5, Informative)
Read on wikipedia about regression, gaussian distribution (central limit theorem) and explained variance and it should become clearer.
A good book about causal modelling is: http://bayes.cs.ucla.edu/BOOK-2K/ [ucla.edu]
It's not like we experience determinism in the real world. here are two of the many papers patrick suppes wrote on this topic:
http://suppes-corpus.stanford.edu/article.html?id
http://suppes-corpus.stanford.edu/article.html?id
Yes it does (was No, nor does having fat friends") (Score:5, Insightful)
In a social peer environment where everybody else is either plump or really fat, being slim means getting teased at every social event, every family gathering, every "social networking" event.
If you don't eat Grandma's signature dish of deep fried twinkies with buttercream frosting when everybody else is piling their plates high with them, Grandma's feelings get hurt. Ditto for the fried chicken, buttermilk pound cake, candied yams, etc., etc., etc.
If you have to request (or bring your own) healthy food to every event because any vegetable that's there is slathered in cream of mushroom soup and cheddar cheese, you are labeled a snob.
If you have to request (or bring your own) diet soda pop and/or light beer to every barbeque, you are derided as a wimpy, effeminate liberal.
If you host a party for your friends and relatives where you serve the foods that you typically eat instead of the foods they typically eat - grilled, broiled or baked meats instead of fried, deep-fried or chicken-fried, fresh vegetables instead of salt, sugar and cream casseroles, relatively low-cal drinks instead of colored and carbonated high fructose corn syrup, good desserts instead of huge desserts - then your parties will be really low on anyone's list of favorite events, because the food is "weird".
Doritos, sour cream and onion potato chips, bowls of candy or nuts and chocolate-covered strawberries are as tempting to slim people as they are to fat people. It's really easy to be fat. It takes effort to stay slim. By exerting that effort at these social events, by not accepting the food they offer to you, you are saying to your plump/fat/obese friends and relatives, "I don't want to be like you." Or at least, that is how they will interpret it.
If you have a fat social network that does not exert pressure on you to also get fat, either overt or covert pressure, conscious or unconscious pressure, then you are very, very lucky.
Try dieting around unsympathetic friends. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Fat friends with benefits (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'll tell you why this is, via anecdotes (Score:5, Insightful)
When they took away my drugs I did not speak up.
When they took away my nicotine I did not speak up.
When they took away my food...
How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tired of saying the same thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Did you RTFA? Or just assume correlation.
It could very well be like many other biological items... like women who spend time together tend to align their menstrual cycles... or do you think that's another 'correlation'?
Perhaps the body takes 'fat cues' from your peer group -- if you spend a lot of time with fat people your that might trigger a biological response to store energy... in the same way that throwing up is 'contagious'... where your body sees others doing something, and this triggers the same survival instinct says that if something the people around you ate is making them sick it might be a good idea to get rid of whatever you ate too, since its likely the same stuff.
I'm not saying its true and even if it is true, I'd expect there are likely other elements at play too -- like if you hang out with people who don't excersie you'll probably be less inclined to exercise yourself -- etc, but just writing it off with a sarcastic 'correlation not causation 'nuff said' post is just close minded and ignorant.
I'd certainly be interested in knowing if there is a biological/biochemical factor to it.
Re:Tired of saying the same thing? (Score:4, Insightful)
"It could very well be like many other biological items... like women who spend time together tend to align their menstrual cycles... or do you think that's another 'correlation'?"
There we have actual evidence that hormones play a role. If all we had was a study showing that women who live together have closely aligned menstrual cycles, all we would have would be a correlation and no evidence of a causation. It could easily be a statistical coincidence, or it could be caused by common environmental factors. It would be irresponsible for a scientists to claim one woman's period can cause another woman's period with just that information.
"Perhaps the body takes 'fat cues' from your peer group -- if you spend a lot of time with fat people your that might trigger a biological response to store energy..."
Thats nothing but pure speculation by a /.er who obviously has no knowledge of the scientific process. And who is obviously ignorant of the study (did you RTFA?), as proximity had no impact (there is a correlation between fat friends across the country, but not fat neighbors living next door to each other). Its about the equivalent of me speculating that Lindsey Lohan (or whatever her name is) was carrying those drugs because a drug lord had kidnapped her parents and was forcing her to drive them to Portugal. In other words, your hypothesis is completely useless, and by stating it all you have done is waste precious brainpower.
The only hypothesis I've heard regarding it is that it is caused by a person's standards of what is an ideal weight being set by their friends. And thats a hypothesis. No one in the study is claiming having a fat friend causes you to be fat, because they understand the fact that correlation does not mean causation.
"but just writing it off with a sarcastic 'correlation not causation 'nuff said' post is just close minded and ignorant."
Its not "writing it off" to state that the /. headline (Study Proves Having Fat Friends Makes You Fat) is badly worded at best.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
RTFA, 'nuff said. (Score:3, Informative)
In other words, yes, the s
No, it doesn't. (Score:4, Insightful)
thanks, captain obvious (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
No genes.. No viruses.. Not what your friend does.. Not what your family does..
It's what you choose to do. Period.
If your metabolism slows down, eat less, exercise more - as long as your body isn't so badly out of shape that taking 3 steps will kill you.
There was this show on TLC about people with weight problems. One woman was working out crazy with help of trainers and doctors, eating extremely well, as little calories as was possible yet she was unable to lose any weight. In fact, sometimes she even gained a few pounds. If I recall correctly, it was some thyroid problem that cut back heavily on some hormone production and this caused her body to "believe" she was constantly starving so her metabolism slowed down to a crawl.
Re:Study is all wrong... (Score:4, Insightful)
If only it were that simple (Score:4, Insightful)
Smokers? They need to stop smoking! It's all about the choices they made dammit. Quit blaming others.
Skinny geeks? They need to get more exercise and eat better food! It's all about the choices they made dammit. Quit blaming others.
I really wish that scientists and doctors would quit trying to hand out excuses.
Too many people today blame anyone or anything but themselves for the dilemmas they find themselves in.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Other than some of the depressed people, yeah, it is that easy. I never even noticed it, but I got up to 25 lbs. overweight. You know what I did? I ate less. Counted calories, weighed myself and got the rate right, at about 3 lbs a week, and in a little over three months I lost 40 lbs. Then, once you reach your goal weight & fat percentage you slowly eat more until you're holding steady. Done, you're not fat anymore.
Smoking? Stop. Chew some gum, survive a week, don't go get drunk for a few months, you'
Re:Study is all wrong... (Score:5, Insightful)
They're not claiming that fat rubs off from one person onto another. But friends engage in similar behaviors to one another - that's socialization. The scientists' observation will apply less to those with strong will and more to those who follow group behaviors. Nothing in what these scientists have observed contradicts the idea of personal responsibility; they're making the rather bland discovery that people tend to act like those with whom they identify and those with whom they enjoy spending time. You sound a little too quick to jump the gun with the fed-up borderline-hostile response.
That being said, while weight and physical health are more dependent on personal choices than most would like to believe, to discount the impact of biological and genetic factors outright is just silly. Personal choice has an influence, as do circumstances beyond the person's control; how much is to blame for a given case depends on the person.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is psychology, which effects all of us. And they did do a scientific study. Why would someone make a bad choice? There are more interesting answers than the standard, intellectually lazy "it's their own damn fault. period.".
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No genes.. No viruses.. Not what your friend does.. Not what your family does..
It's what you choose to do. Period.
If your metabolism slows down, eat less, exercise more - as long as your body isn't so badly out of shape that taking 3 steps will kill you.
But that's probably the result of 20 years being overweight (~235lbs) without attributable cause. I eat properly with only rare cheats (one snack once a month max) and I exercise regularly. At one point my metabolism was so high that I radiated enough heat that you could feel it if you stood c
Re:Study is all wrong... (Score:4, Interesting)
People like to down on fatties all day for being lazy. How many of them actually work for the body they have?
-I'm 5'10. I weigh 220lbs by eating till I don't want to eat, and with no exercise.
-I weigh 180lbs by lifting 3 days a week and cardio 4 days a week. I bench 315, squat around 600. I eat to sufficiency rather than to satisfaction. There is still 18% body fat there. No six pack.
Many of the people who are so quick to jump to conclusions have no idea what the other person is up to. I've been a fatty, and I've been an athlete, and I'm the only one who can tell you which is the real me.
How easy is it to resist something when it's easy? How hard is it to resist when it's hard? Quitting smoking is very different between the lifetime smoker and the guy who's never smoked. You don't know what it's like in their head, so don't pretend to.
But with that said, each person
Re:Study is all wrong... (Score:5, Insightful)
First,glad to know that you have done your own extensive, scientific study. I guess it is a shame you just have not released it yet. We all await it eagerly, i can tell you.
Secondly, the real problem with the argument that everyone chooses everything they do is that there is some truth to it. There is more untruth, but that sliver is something people gasp and never let go. An example which you will like ignore follows:
25% of the population lack a gene. This lack means that it is harder for them to get enjoyment from smoking. It also makes it easier to quit when they try. By your logic that gene has nothing to do with it and it is merely a choice. However, without knowing ANYTHING else about a group of people except whither or not they lack the gene, i can predict more accurately how hard it will quit then someone who knows nothing. This is not a question of will power but of biology.
People are not created equal, people have different needs and tolerances. Something YOU can control someone else can not. Not because it is a flaw, but because they are not you. You maybe able to eat or not eat as is your whim yet maybe you can not control your anger. We are a messy, wiggly species with the most convoluted lump of matter in the universe between our ears. And you think you control it.
You are not in control of everything in you life, you do not choose to do everything you do. Your heart beats, your feet sweat, your hair grows. People being made aware of the things that shape their lives is nothing but good. People who are social around each tend to do the same sort of things,in a natural and HEALTHY way. This study underlines that.
Your hard line stance is wrong, does nothing to help and merely contains a note of derision and contempt. I hope you learn to accept the things that are beyond your control.
Re:Study is all wrong... (Score:4, Insightful)
Hard to believe (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hard to believe (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Study is all wrong... (Score:5, Insightful)
First, walking at a leisurely pace is not the same as working out strenuously.
Second, unless you stalked her while you were dating, you have no way of knowing how many Twinkies she scarfed down while you were not looking.
Third, unless you stalked her before you were dating, you have no way of knowing whether or not she was eating less and exercising more than normal. Just because someone has a slow metabolism and it takes more exercise for them to maintain a healthy weight than other people does not mean they can't lose weight. It means their body needs more exercise or less food than other people.
Fourth, you lost all credibility with your second sentence anyways.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cruel (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
Not being a minority did stop women from being treated that way for millenium...
Perhaps it is more accurate to say that fat people are th elast socialy acceptable peer group to abuse. The main reason for this is because it is perceived to be a lack of will power or moral fibre that got them that way in the first place.
Oddly enough, obesity seems to be mostly a disease of first world societies. Could it be that human evolved to live in an environment of scarcity and that in 2-3 generations we haven't yet managed to rewire ourselves to adjust to living in an environment of plenty.
The reason that the majority of people are overweight is that for normal[1] people living normal[1] lives they consume far more calories than they burn.
[1] Normal is a mathematical concept. It is a form of average. If we want to change what normal is we need significant social change regarding lifestyles to permit people to eat healither foods, have the time and motivation to exercise physically and to show more restraint in what they consume.
And it is likely it will take a major shift in work/life balance across all sectors of industry for this to happen.
This isn't saying people can't take personal responsibility for their actions, it's saying that human nature being what it is, unless it is easier to live a healthy life than it is to live an unhealthy life - people will continue to expand.
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Interesting)
Oddly enough, obesity seems to be mostly a disease of first world societies. Could it be that human evolved to live in an environment of scarcity and that in 2-3 generations we haven't yet managed to rewire ourselves to adjust to living in an environment of plenty.
No, the U.S. has been mostly a nation of plenty for a couple hundred years or more. Depending on how you count, that's easily 6-8 generations. Mass obesity has only come in the last generation or so. Most people are obese not because of genetics, laziness, or overconsumption. Most people are obese because for years we've been taught to eat incorrectly and because the quality of our food has taken a substantial decline.
If the obesity problem were simply a result of us not being used to availability of food, we would have seen nearly constant levels of obesity for the past two or three generations. Instead, we're seeing an order of magnitude increase in morbid obesity (>40% BMI) since the mid 1980s. We weren't all struggling to find food in the mid 1980s. If this study were done in the 1950s comparing against the 1930s (Great Depression), I might believe that explanation, but it just doesn't make sense in this day and age.
In reality, the mass obesity problem coincides perfectly with the rise of processed foods. This got worse after the U.S. government started giving huge corn subsidies and putting high import duties on sugar to encourage use of high fructose corn syrup. Fructose is processed by the body very quickly, but does not trigger the same insulin response as glucose. Thus, your body A. does not feel satiated, so you consume more, B. does not gain the metabolic surge that normally occurs in response to elevated insulin levels, and so does not use all that energy, C. stores the resulting excess energy as fat. Replacing that same amount of fructose with glucose will cause a significant weight loss.
Similarly, when your body consumes a large amount of food at once, it can't use it all immediately, so much of that energy gets stored. That's why consuming proteins are better for you than consuming sugars and starches from a weight perspective. Note: you should not eat all protein. You do need other stuff to prevent lots of colon problems later in life, and many sources of protein bring fat along for the ride, which is even worse than (at least complex) carbohydrates.
However, without changing what foods you eat at all, you can significantly reduce your weight by spreading it more evenly throughout the day. Fix yourself a normal lunch, but instead of eating the whole thing, put aside a third of it and consume it in mid-afternoon.
Case in point, I've tried exercise and diet with no success as all. However, I recently lost a substantial amount of weight while consuming substantially more calories than before. I replaced my usual HFCS-sweetened beverage at lunch with an entire extra meal later in the day, drinking only water and fruit juices. I'm guessing I now take in half again more calories, but I weigh ten or twelve pounds less (depending on the mood my digital scale is in) and have kept the weight off for a couple of months now.
Your mileage may vary, but it has been my experience that total calorie consumption is only a very small part of the obesity picture, and not the most important part by any means.
Oh, yeah, and don't get me started on diet sodas. They're even worse than HFCS-sweetened sodas at causing people to gain weight. (Source: University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio [foxnews.com].) If you're overweight, switching from "diet" sodas to regular sodas might actually cause you to lose weight.... Talk about false advertising....
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> However, I recently lost a substantial amount of weight
> while consuming substantially more calories than before.
> [...]
> I'm guessing I now take in half again more calories, but
> I weigh ten or twelve pounds less
>
Then your expenditure of energy has increased by more than 50%, and you say this has been achieved without any additional exercise. It seems much more likely that you are or were not measuring your caloric intake correctly.
Perhaps the point is that a change in diet, at the very least, produces a feeling of having more energy, which improves activity levels. If HFCS makes you feel lethargic, you're not going to exercise.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
Not being a minority did stop women from being treated that way for millenium...
Perhaps it is more accurate to say that fat people are th elast socialy acceptable peer group to abuse. The main reason for this is because it is perceived to be a lack of will power or moral fibre that got them that way in the first place.
You know what? Being fat is not okay. It sucks. It ruins your youth (and I'm sure the rest of your life too). If you are fat, try to change. Don't accept it and feel good about your body. Lose that weight and THEN feel good. That stupid self-esteem program should have said "You can lose weight! You don't have to be trapped under 40 extra pounds of fat!" That's good self-esteem.
Yes, some people have medical problems that cause them to be fat. You know what? I feel sorry for them, just like I feel sorry for people who have lost a limb. If there is no possibility for them to lose weight, then obviously you shouldn't make them feel bad about that. But I don't celebrate it. It's horrible to take that tiny exemption and apply it to all fat people, because you are helping to ruin the lives of people who do have a choice.
Re:Cruel (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Kinda notasheep's point (Score:4, Insightful)
I was asked if I'd like a health coach. To help me with my eating or exercise habits. I hadn't found out that it was because of my high BMI until after I met with her (on company time). After explaining that I spend roughly 8 hours a week doing shaolin kung fu, and I bike a total of 14.2 miles to and from work almost every day, I was told that I am not getting enough caloric intake. Strange. But at the same time she was impressed that I looked absolutely nothing like her perception of a 5'8", 200lb man.
I have a small pouch of a stomach and that's about it. And most people don't notice it unless I'm showing off. Which I do from time to time ("feel it kick"). My point is that the BMI can be very flawed. Perhaps America is only fat on paper, but a quick look around tells me otherwise. I scanned my office and see at least60% overweight or obese, and about a sixth of them morbidly so. Every one of these is guilty of being on weight watchers, eating "Lean Pockets", and a few Jenny Craig lunches throughout the day. Yet not losing weight, but increasing their already powerful gravitational field.
America is fat because a lot of us get it all too easy, and if it's not easy, it's not American, apparently. "Just take 'Mataboslim' and sit on your fat ass and watch it melt away!", "Eat whatever you want! Our patented formula of goats.ex and monkey urine will melt those pounds off and prevent your body from holding on to any nutrition whatsoever!"
A little background on me is that I was 240 in high school, and about 38% fat. I lost 70lbs in college when I stopped drinking Pepsi and all other carbonated sugar water. It took two months. My dad thought I was anorexic, but the opposite was the truth. I ate everything I could. And kept it down. It was the extra 1000-1500g of sugar I was no longer consuming.
Re:Kinda notasheep's point (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
Comparing yourselves to minorities who have actually been oppressed is sickening.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Does it also sicken you to compare religious oppression to racial oppression?
Re:Cruel (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if you grow up a fat kid (I did), you can lose the weight when you get old enough to realize that being obese is not in your long term interest.
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cruel (Score:5, Informative)
I didn't really "choose" to be fat. I did choose to take medicine whose side effect was major weight gain but the alternative was death, and I'd rather get through the issue and work off the weight later than be worm food. After gaining 110 lbs, I've seen exactly how fat people live life and the work required to get that weight back off.
As a fat person, you can still vote, still have a job, still do generally "everything" you expect. Except be comfortable in airplanes, or ride some of the rollercoasters at the amusement park. Oh, and be listened to as attentively as the thin person next to you. Or be taken as seriously at a job interview as the next thin person. It's subtle but real, and my thin friends don't see it at all. In that way it is similar to being a middle-class black person at a white-collar job.
(Of course the "oppression" isn't nearly as bad as actual black middle class experience these days. But it mirrors the lighter end of it, and for many middle-class white people it's the closest they'll come to it. See Ellis Cose's excellent book "The Rage of a Privileged Class: Why Do Prosperous Blacks Still Have the Blues?" for good discussion covering the entire spectrum of black oppression including the "not being taken seriously" part.)
As for losing weight, once your body has gained a huge amount of weight and kept it on for more than a few months, losing the weight becomes a real challenge. Dieting means not eating with friends and family anymore which here in America means instant social isolation. No more potlucks at church, no more barbecues, and no more food at parties. Your life is literally: work, exercise, count calories, and find individually fulfilling things to do in the 2 remaining evening hours of the day while your friends are out having a life.
Exercise also requires a lot more thinking than most people are used to. For instance, if you weigh more than 300 pounds you simply cannot run or use a stairmaster machine because you risk permanent knee injury, and you cannot really "walk" on the treadmill either as that doesn't burn enough calories to benefit you. However, you can use an elliptical trainer, stationary bike, and punching bag to kick the heart rate up. A personal heart rate monitor only costs $70 and goes a long way to ensuring the workout intensity remains high.
Losing serious amounts of weight requires the kind of dedication we normally associate with martial arts. A fat person who is seriously losing weight (and I've lost 30 of my 110 extra pounds so far) needs to know as much about fitness as an amateur bodybuilder. It requires money to buy healthier food, gym membership and/or personal training, and equipment, and it also requires enough free time to actually use those fitness resources and shop for food correctly. Finally, it requires a lot of not fucking caring about the world because even your closest family might not notice the first six months and 30 pounds and you'd better stick with it despite all the negative reinforcement around you. The world will always think I suck (because I "chose" to eat crap) until that magic moment I stop looking fat and people start seeing me as a real person again.
Having been in the fat shoes, I have a lot more sympathy for people who have little free time and money and aren't quite introverted enough to handle the social isolation.
Comparing yourselves to minorities who have actually been oppressed is sickening.
Now that's rich: here on Slashdot, the enclave of middle-class white privilege, we're finally told that minorities really are oppressed!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In my case -- and I would expect for many others -- I cannot be surrounded by bad food and not have a little here, a little there, and before I know it consume 600+ calories. I can't have Oreos in the house or they'll be gone within a day. Yes, I could probably master some special self-discipline techniques, but it is far easier f
Re:Dumb Correlation? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, but socializing with them will make you ACT like if you're dumb. The point of the study is that you LEARN from your friends to eat more and more often.
Re:Dumb Correlation? (Score:5, Funny)
yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And it isn't terribly surprising either: people tend to eat with and share activities (or lack of) with friends. These factors have huge influe
Re:Correlation != Causation (Score:4, Insightful)