U.S. Army Testing Personal Cooling Suits 398
DJ BenBen writes to tell us that they Army is currently testing some 500 liquid cooled vests with Humvee crews in Iraq. From the article: "The Humvees with add-on armor were fitted with air conditioners after TARDEC engineers in Warren, Mich., were given the requirement to figure out how Soldiers in armored vehicles could be kept cool under the desert sun. Some of the same engineers had designed the add-on armor kits for the M-998 and M-1025 Humvees in theater. But with the extra armor and doors closed, temperatures inside the vehicles could reportedly reach more than 130 degrees. 'It's like putting somebody in a toaster oven on low heat,' said Charlie Bussee, an engineer at TARDEC."
Sounds cool but... (Score:5, Funny)
Lets hope they don't hit back....
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:5, Funny)
>
> Lets hope they don't hit back....
Especially if their sysadmin's wearing one of these watercooling vests. If you thought the Bastard Operator From Hell was bad-ass, you should see him when he's overclocked.
Re:Sounds cool but... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:5, Interesting)
Do what they do to deal with the heat. Instead of $5000 air conditioned suits, consider wearing a shawez kameez or other clothing that has been developed by the locals over a thousand years to deal with the climate.
Yeah, because the natives drive around in heavily armored humvees all day long, right? Personally, I know that sitting in a slow moving car, with the windows down, in the Texas sun in the middle of the summer is quite hot. What is it going to be like if you raise the temperature and decrease the ventilation?
I believe they will require some active cooling.
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:4, Insightful)
If they did, they would be much COOLER. If you read the article, you'd know standard air conditioning is already used, and gets up to 95F degrees at most. Outside tempuratures are much higer.
If you can handle outside tempuratures for long periods of time, you can handle sitting in a humvee.
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:3, Funny)
Well, people here in Miami are *nearly* naked, but we keep that mostly to our beaches and clubs.
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:4, Insightful)
I dont know about the arabic dress but the shalwar kameez is awesome and very versatile. People wear it in the morning jogging, soldiers wear it fighting, its a nightgown and a formal dress too. We used to just order 5x of em back home in different colors, and use the older ones for nightgowns etc. The tailor just had our measurements, no hassle, no hawaii shirts for friday or beach shorts or khakhis for casual days or tux for wedding days etc.
Getting back to history, when we (Mongols) had Iraq we couldnt last much long in there. We left some governors in cool areas and the rest left. Russia was much nicer. I dont expect the Americans to simply adjust to the 50C heat, well maybe the aussies and the texans. Certainly not the New Yorkers.
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:4, Interesting)
Why does water cool people down? Because heat is convected from the human body into the water, which then evaporates. This disipates the heat energy.
Have you ever lived in a hot, dry climate? Anything short of water cooling of some sort will NOT cool them down at a fast enough rate. They have ambient dry heat indexes of 120F on a regular, daily basis over there. Have you ever gotten into a vehicle during the middle of the summer, and the steering wheel is too hot to touch? You'll immediately roll the window down because it's almost too hot to breath. It rarely gets above 105F in the US. Now, think of being in an armored vehicle, with the motor running, and the heat on, with the windows down, wearing a combat pack, long clothing, boots, gloves, and a helmet - and with 5 other men in the vehicle with you. THAT is the kind of heat they are in over there.
Look at a photo from Iraq of our troops. Notice how everyone is wearing gloves? There's a reason for that: their guns and other gear are too hot to touch.
The only way they could really do it would be with water of some sort. The only practical way to do it is to drink it, as pouring it on yourself or your clothing will a) get you dirty - really dirty - really quickly, b) do little, as it will evaporate too quickly, c) waste valuable water, and d) decrease their agility and ability to move quickly.
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:3, Insightful)
And the idea that American soldiers are going to start blending in with native populations is of course completely ludicrous. Not so say it
Absolutely (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh yeah, bound to. I mean, it's simply so much easier to just sorta 'drift out of the command structure', desert, change skin color, learn Arabic, and become an Iraqi than it is to finish your tour and go home.
You may not be aware of this, but as things currently stand:
--The US Army, as a rule, frowns on soldiers who 'drift out of the command structure'.
--Iraq, as a rule, does not appear to offer an easy path to a happy and secure life to deserters from occupying armies.
I agree, though, that if the parent post's sheer naievete could be weaponized, it would be deadly enough to force any of these circumstances to change.
Re:Do what all the other invaders did (Score:3, Informative)
For the misinformed (Score:4, Informative)
A bullet proof jacket is normally made exclusively from layered fabric with an optional flack plate (modern use, older bullet-proof armor was made from solid plate).
A flack jacket will indeed stop a 7.62 NATO (AK-47) round, as well as a
As for the
I think you are misinformed. (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know what kind of "flack jacket" you're talking about that's comprised of "rticulated ceramic/steel plates with a touch of Kevlar fabric to hold it together" but it's nothing that I've ever seen. And a flak jacket from the Korean war, that was rated to stop a
I'll refer you over to the Body Armor [globalsecurity.org] page at Globalsecurity.org. "The [pre-Interceptor] "flak jacket," constructed of ballistic nylon, provided protection primarily from munitions fragments and was ineffective against most pistol and rifle threats. These vests also were very cumbersome and bulky and were restricted primarily to military use." This adequately describes the vests used up through Vietnam and which were even issued during the onset of the current war in Iraq. On the Interceptor [globalsecurity.org] system, which is current issue, "The outer tactical vest consists of a Kevlar weave that's very fine and will stop 9mm pistol rounds. Webbing on the front and back of the vest permits attaching such equipment as grenades, walkie-talkies and pistols. The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material. It stops, shatters and catches any fragments up to a 7.62 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second."
The old, Vietnam-era vest would not stop a 7.62mm rifle round. Whether it would stop a 9mm handgun round I'm not sure, but there are plenty of reports of guys being killed by being shot through the flak vest. It was never intended to stop aimed rifle fire. And it certainly wasn't made from hinged solid plate! Here's a page [demon.co.uk] with a photo. It was made primarily of nylon.
That the new armor system -- with plates -- can reliably stop rifle rounds is a big deal. It was not true before; I do not believe there was a personal armoring system available to the average troops in any war before this one, that would stop bullets. The WWII, Korea, and Vietnam "flak jackets" were exactly that -- to stop flak, that is, fragments produced by things exploding.
You are also mistaken about the 5.56mm round. It does too have a steel penetrator. Nonwithstanding my personal experience (fire one through several layers of 1/4" mild steel plate separated by a few inches and you can see the copper jacket and lead surround strip off, and the steel core continue), there are an abundance of references on the net. The current issue is called the M885 Ball round, it is a 62 grain bullet with a full copper jacket and lead surrounding a cylindrical steel core. It's commonly referred to as "Green tip" because the tips of the bullets are painted green to differentiate them from the older, solid-lead M193 round, which has no coloring on the tips.
You can get quite an argument going with people familiar with terminal ballistics by asking about whether the wound profile of the new M855 bullets (they're quite a bit messier than the old solid lead ones) are due to the bullets 'tumbling,' or breaking apart on impact, but it's quite well known that they have a steel penetrator, and that this was introduced principally to defeat new types of body armor. The Russians have a comparable cartridge, for similar reasons. (Best reference: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.htm l [dumpshock.com])
Also read:
http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/r1r42.htm [geocities.com]
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib [globalsecurity.org]
Re:For the misinformed (Score:3, Informative)
A 9mm bullet weighs double that. While you might find some specialty 9mm ammo in the 95-100gr range, most commercial hollowpoints are 115-147gr.
Holy Pork Fatman! (Score:5, Funny)
Besides... (Score:2)
Re:Besides... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Besides... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Holy Pork Fatman! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Holy Pork Fatman! (Score:4, Informative)
Err...because that's where the automotive engineers are? You do know that the Big Three are based in Detroit, right? And don't forget, Warren used to be home of the 900,000 sq. ft. Warren Tank Plant. General Dynamics Land Systems Division, as well as many other military contractors, are still based there, too.
Side note: We used to have to use bicycles to get around that place. It was HUGE!
Re:Holy Pork Fatman! (Score:2)
OK, this is true but besides the where its done how 'bout the why its done? I'm sure these liquid cooled vestes are cool and all (no pun intended), but my Hummer has a cooling system which was very cheap and has been tested by millions of others ahead of me and doesn't require me to wear any extra clothing. Its called air conditioning and it works pretty well. I wonder how many millions tax payers are putting up for this, while the solders are dig
Just hope they don't use red coolant. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Just hope they don't use red coolant. (Score:3, Funny)
Hot and cold? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hot and cold? (Score:5, Insightful)
Possibly, but it's got to be better than dying of heatstroke.
Personally, I'd say being in Iraq is bad for American soldiers' health... but that's just me.
Re:Hot and cold? (Score:2)
lesser evil (Score:3, Interesting)
It was summer, it was *very* hot (unussual for this country).
A few of the young soldiers collapsed because of Hyperthermia [wikipedia.org] during exercices in tanks.
Not only was the weather hot, but it was even hotter inside the tank (witch is under direct sun, doesn't radiate a lot and doesn't have large openings, to lower risk
Air Conditioned Bras (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Air Conditioned Bras (Score:3, Interesting)
Reminds me of old Popular Science article (Score:5, Informative)
In the early '70s, Popular Science ran an article by a stuff writer who tried out one of the water-cooled undergarments worn by astronauts during "EVA."
The garment was resembled full-length underwear, laced with yards and yards of plastic tubing. The cooling source was a bag of ice worn on the hip. Kind of like a fanny pack.
The writer put on the suit, dressed normally, and went for a walk around Manhattan on a stinking hot day. One of the few details I remember: A picture of him loading up the ice bag at a bar.
Rapid Release System (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's just hope that the water circulating through the vest is sucked out by the release system, or else that once-was-cold water is going to turn very hot and very heavy, RSN.
Re:Rapid Release System (Score:2)
i wonder if that would make it unsafe to drink?
Deja Vu (Score:2)
Not to mention, Helicopter pilots have had this system for a while. Plus it's not that cool; it's not portable.
Re:Deja Vu (Score:3, Interesting)
Scorpius (Score:4, Funny)
Toasty (Score:2, Funny)
Boy, but you should see them complain when it's on high!
Re:Toasty (Score:3, Funny)
Here's a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Here's a problem (Score:2)
Re:Here's a problem (Score:5, Funny)
Ya know, I've been reading Popular Mechanics and I think in the next hundred years we'll see cooling systems mounted directly inside of the vehicles. These systems will cool the air and then blow it onto the vehicle's occupants. Now I don't suggest these are ready for common use yet, but one day it could be very useful for for are troops in such environments.
Re:Here's a problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Whoop de doo (Score:5, Interesting)
Civilian racing versions usually feature a small pump inside of a water reservoir in an ice cooler. The pump runs off the car's 12VDC system. The rest of the cooler is filled with ice, to keep the water cold.
You can get one right here [eagleracingonline.com] for $320 (for a limited time.) Perhaps the military should just buy them from those guys, if they can come up with 40,000 of them or so :)
Re:Whoop de doo (Score:2)
I'm fairly certain the
Re:Whoop de doo (Score:2)
The unit I was formerly with (3rd ACR, Army) has gigantic semi-trailer sized ice making machines. I don't know the exact output for one of these, but it must be in the tons per day.
The world according to a dog's nose [suvalleynews.com]
Military Development (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, there's always a difference between a commercial technology and a military one. Take this suit for example. How many times do you think racecar drivers get shot at while in their cars? If a bullet penetrates through, what will the results be? If there is fluid leakage, will it harm internal tissue or poison the blood stream, or is it so cold that muscles will tense up? If there are wires (and there are), could those short out and cause electrical damage to the wearer? If the system becomes non-functioning, what could happen that would prevent the wearer from continuing the mission? Lastly, what do the soldiers that will be issued this device think about it? You know, the guys that have been there, and will be going back? Yep, the Army gets everyone's input (even privates), and that's a huge benefit mostly unique to our military.
As someone that's in the Army, I can tell you that we don't get issued ANYTHING unless the leadership is confident that it will benefit our mission. That's not a bad thing.
Re:Military Development (Score:2)
Re:Military Development (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially when these things are new and there aren't enough to go around, I could easily see one of these suit
Re:Military Development (Score:3, Informative)
You misspelled "graft".
I can tell you that we don't get issued ANYTHING unless the leadership is confident that it will benefit our mission.
I suggest you study the history of the procurement of the Beretta 9mm pistol, replacement for the old
Re:Military Development (Score:5, Informative)
If you mean the incidents that gave rise to the saying "You're not really a SEAL until you've eaten Italian steel", the problems were not with the pistol or the procurement system. The real problem was forcing the standard sidearm onto special ops units.
The standard military sidearm has NEVER been intended for anything other than last-resort defensive use, or low-risk missions such as police, low-security guards, etc. Spec-ops guys such as SEALs, Special Forces, etc. need a pistol for primary and offensive use as well. The only way to do that (semi)effectively with a 9mm is to use ammo loaded to much higher pressures and velocities. The incidents you refer to were confined to Navy units using custom ammo loaded WAY past SAAMI specs, beyond what is usually called "+P+". Notice that it was never a wide-spread problem, and has not been known to recur since spec-ops were given more latitude to select and procure non-standard sidearms. The big H&K "offensive" pistol is designed specifically for the requirements of spec-ops, and to handle +P
So don't blame military waste, blame the penny-pinchers who oversee the military from nice civilian offices and have no idea what the complexities and realities are.
Re:Military Development (Score:3, Funny)
One caveat...
Of all the fanboys I've ever met, none were ever as rabid as 1911 fanboys. A Muslim might strap himself to a bomb to fight infidels, a Christian might let themselves be thrown to the lions rather than give up his fate, but a 1911 fanboy will sit in his Lay-Z-Boy with the lights out for months just waiting for a burglar to shoot at so that he brag about it on m1911.org
Re:Whoop de doo (Score:2)
1) Where would you get ice or dry ice in Iraq?
2) The one you refer to lasts 2 hours on dry ice for 1 person. Now think 4 people for 10 hours and no dry ice.
3) Is it light enough that you can get out of it in a firefight and still be mobile enough to survive.
4) Does it go on top of or below fatigues/armor/e
Re:Whoop de doo (Score:2)
The main issue is that the gear has to survive combat. Something as simple as a 3-5 second rush involves repeatedly jumping down into a prone position over whatever happens to be on the ground, rocks, sticks, whatever.
São Paulo summer (Score:5, Interesting)
I had the idea of a personal cooling unit, with a box (maybe carried in a briefcase) that would cool some liquid (water maybe) and pump it through tubes that I would be wearing to cool strategic regions of my body (major arteries and possibly veins near the skin seemed like good places to have the tubes passing). I had this amazing mental image of me walking down the Avenida Paulista (a famous major avenue in the city) in the blazing sun on the hottest day of the year, wearing a black wool suit and looking cool and comfortable while people around me in shorts, sleeveless shirts and sandals were panting and bathed in sweat.
The technical issues seemed tough to master, especially the question of how I would cool the water (or other liquid). Then it occurred to me that I could just have a reservoir filled with as much ice as it could hold, and then cold water filling the remaining space. A simple battery-operated pump would pump the water through aquarium tubing to the aforementioned strategic points and then back to the reservoir for heat exchange with the ice and cooler water. This version would be able to provide cooling for a much shorter time than the one with a portable refrigeration unit, but one could always refill the reservoir with ice and water, and it would be a lot easier to build and maintain. I would be able to build it from readily available (and inexpensive) components. Not to mention that I wouldn't have the problem of powering a portable refrigeration unit. This one seemed doable, but I ended up buying a car with air conditioning before I got around to making my personal cooling unit, and my interest in actually completing the project waned.
Re:São Paulo summer (Score:3, Funny)
The cooling fluid: icewater
The deliver: drink it.
militray spending (Score:5, Funny)
Re:militray spending (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:militray spending (Score:2)
Re:militray spending (Score:4, Funny)
Re:militray spending (Score:2)
Re:militray spending (Score:2)
i don't know (Score:5, Informative)
Re:i don't know (Score:2)
Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:2)
I thought the entire mechanism behind perspiration was that
Not that hot... (Score:2)
Ummm... This sounds pretty ridiculous to those of us who live in the desert. Around here, when it's 125F degrees in the shade, everyone still works outside, and many in direct sunlight. I *never* even turn on my car's air conditioner (though admitedly, most people do).
Can someone fill me in as to why Iraq is so different that people can't work in temp
Re:Not that hot... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure (Score:5, Insightful)
All while looking for people trying to kill you.
" I *never* even turn on my car's air conditioner (though admitedly, most people do)."
yeah, well your a kook.
Re:Sure (Score:2)
Re:Not that hot... (Score:2)
The job is what's different: if you're feeling like crap doing your civilian work, you can sit down and stop working or go in the shade. You probably don't even realize the number of times you've been close to a heat injury.
If you're on a mission, however, you usually can't and if you haven't prepared for it you're going to get a heat injury. Now th
Units (Score:2)
OK, so I have the temperature on the Fahrenheit scale and on the "kitchen appliances" scale. Now, how about a SI unit like, say, degrees Celcius (or Kelvin, why not)?
Big Deal (Score:3, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ducks#Relatio
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/nc
http://www.fanblogs.com/pac10/004233.php [fanblogs.com]
Some sources say that they use some sort of liquid coolant, which can also be heated, while others say compressed air is used. Still, the point is that the Ducks are better equipped than the Army.
What am I missing? (Score:2, Insightful)
Already done in Israeli tanks(?) (Score:4, Interesting)
Then again - a tank's crew mission is usually to stay in the tank while a humvee crew might have a need to move around more easely (but maybe just cooling their head will help to decrease the cooling unit size and weight).
Nuts (Score:3, Insightful)
Overclocking (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:2)
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:5, Insightful)
The term war is now only utilized for government policies with no chance of success, such as the "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty" and the "War on Terror". And since we have no hope of winning, "war" is now a permanent state of affairs.
No doubt! (Score:2)
It costs a buck-oh-five.
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:2)
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:2)
- AJ
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:3, Insightful)
And I can think of 30,000 or so [iraqbodycount.net] people who might agree with it, if they could. Your point?
Re:Whatever it takes (Score:2)
It's much more convenient to have conflicts instead, since you don't have to abide by all those pesky international rules [wikipedia.org].
Merry christmas? (Score:2)
Nah, just kidding. I don't actually give a shit what it's called.
Happy holiday!
Re:That's just piggybanking... (Score:2)
Re:That's just piggybanking... (Score:2)
But even without the influx I can just spit on it and shave it and I guarantee no tiny particles will be in the air
Come on, it doesn't take millions of dollars dude.
Also as you're reading this, you're breathing in pieces of death skin, microbes and small particles of garbage (also known as dust) and ah yea, also small living insects... How about
Re:That's just piggybanking... (Score:2, Informative)
A chap called Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co. invested about 1million USD to develop the ball point with presurised ink at no cost to the USA / NASA.
Approx 400 pens were sold to NASA at 6USD each for the Apollo program, and they were also sold to the Russians fo r the Soyuz program.
The Fisher Pen Co. still makes and sells them.
Re:That's the military for you... (Score:2)
Car AC generally requires a pretty closed system. Windows up, etc. Your car is OK, but a HUMVEE is not particularly 'closed'. Turret, windows down...all significant air leaks. All the AC unit might be doing it blowing cold air out the windows, without actually cooling the occupants. And HUMVEEs aren't the only vehicles moving.
If we can cool the guys, instead of the inside of whatever vehicle they are in....one more step to a self contained fighting unit, with a man at th
Re:Of course, is there any real chance.... (Score:2)
Re:Peltier Cooler? (Score:3, Insightful)
So peltiers ac
Re:WAR. That doesn't mean the job is nice. (Score:5, Insightful)
I was going to let this thread go but this post kinda hit my buttons. Normally, I wouldnt reply to an anonymous coward, but I defend this individuals right to spew whatever he wants as an anonymous coward.
First -- 130 degrees? Where were they testing this thing, Michigan in August? It regularly hits 110-120 in that area of the world. Going on the 35 degree temp spread as mentioned in the article, we are talking 110 outside, 145+ inside... Hmmmmm
Second -- Can you deal with the personal discomfort of a field environment, temps regularly hitting triple digits (Im talking outdoors, not in a tactical vehicle, Tacticle vehicles, you will yearn for 90 after 10 mins on one of them), combat stress of random bullets flying around? This poster probabally has a nice and cushy desk job in a safe, air-conditioned office somewhere. If so, the cold is causing this person to forget something interesting:
When was the last time the USA has fought any type of conflict in a desert environment FOR A SUSTAINED PERIOD. Desert Shield/Storm was quick in the grand scheme of things. Most of our conflicts were in a tropical or continental type of environment (continental I mean grassy/forests... not desert or rainforest extremes). We have not had to deal with any type of sustained combat operations in a desert environment.
The stresses that are experienced by both our equipment and Troops out there have forced a major rethinking of strategy and equipping of our personnel to address these climatic extremes. I think AC units in these HMMWV's are a nifty idea, but not necessarially a good one due to the cost of maintaining one in a piece of equipment like this, in the environment that they serve in. Same extends to these vests, good idea in theory, lets see how well this equipment lasts when our fightin boys beat this equipment up. Yes, they take care of it because its their lifeline, but we will see how they handle the combat stresses endured in daily operations. I hope it works, because we need this type of gear and a conflict like this is allowing our best and brightest in this country to think outside of the box to provide us with equipment that will make life a little more tolerable.
So In closing anonymous coward; YOU enjoy your air-conditioning and cushy life... Maybe if you want an idea of how we feel, without stressing your self out too badly... Wear a 3 piece suit (Its about as heavy as the utility uniform). Drive to work when its nice and hot outside (80+ stateside should do the trick) with your windows cracked and your heat on full blast... You will get an idea of what we deal with. Oh, add the body armor, 3 weeks of stink from not taking a shower, oh and bullets, yes bullets flying at you randomly. You will have somewhat of a clue what is dealt with. Are these ideas perfect? Hell no... But it is a logical idea that cant hurt at this point. Robert Active Duty Marine Maintenance Management Specialist My comments do not reflect that of the US Government or Marine Corps. Just one little guy's random thoughts based on my version of reality, it may or may not match up with yours.