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Space News

Vast Subsurface Martian Ice Discovered 308

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the i've-got-you-under-my-skin dept.
The Fun Guy writes to tell us New Scientist is reporting that deep-scan radar results from ESA's Mars Express spacecraft have revealed vast amounts of subsurface ice. From the article: "Intriguingly, the signal reflected from the bottom of the crater is so strong and appears so flat that it may be liquid water. 'If you put water there, that's what the signal might look like,' Johnson told New Scientist. But he cautions the data is based on only one pass over the region and could be caused by another material."
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Vast Subsurface Martian Ice Discovered More

Vast Subsurface Martian Ice Discovered

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  • oblig ERB (Score:5, Funny)

    by opencity ( 582224 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:40PM (#14150829) Homepage
    also found was John Carter, slightly the worse for wear.

  • Terraforming (Score:4, Interesting)

    by richcoder ( 539438 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:43PM (#14150863)
    To anyone in the know, what implications would this have on the possible terraforming of mars to have a hospitable atmosphere?

    • Re:Terraforming (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:46PM (#14150903)
      The implications are that there will likely be further implications

    • Re:Terraforming (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:46PM (#14150910) Journal
      I really can't imagine how the terraforming idea is going to be tenable over the long term. Even if you can figure out a way to bulk-up the atmosphere to raise surface temperatures sufficiently for water to exist in a liquid state, the gravity of Mars is to weak to sustain such an atmosphere, which will leak off over time. You would essentially have to keep adding to the atmosphere.

      • Re:Terraforming (Score:4, Insightful)

        by KiloByte ( 825081 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:55PM (#14151002)
        the gravity of Mars is to weak to sustain such an atmosphere, which will leak off over time

        Yeah, it will leak of over the time, it will take only several million years for it to leak! Of course, no one stops us from terraforming it again by then.

      • Re:Terraforming (Score:5, Insightful)

        by FridayBob ( 619244 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:56PM (#14151016)
        Also, since Mars has no magnetic field to speak of, any bulked-up the atmosphere would be lost even faster. Forget terraforming. We might some day figure out how to live there, but it'll never look like home. Then again, home is what you make it, right?
        • Also, since Mars has no magnetic field to speak of,

          Well if you built a rather large fusion reactor in the center of mars and then set it to spin like ours then gave it a spin then you might be able to do it... ...but if we had that much technology we'd probaly wouldn't have standard human bodies anymore and therefor not need a real atmosphere to walk around.

        • Re:Terraforming (Score:3, Informative)

          by njchick ( 611256 )
          Put a superconductive wire along the equator and run some current through it. Better yet, make it a mesh, so that breaking a wire doesn't release huge amounts of energy at once.
      • You would essentially have to keep adding to the atmosphere

        By the time we get around to actually committing to something like terraforming Mars, it will be pretty trivial to slap some ion drives on them thar big chunks of ice spinning around Saturn, and drop them down the well into a shallow entry so that they vapourize. Lots of potential atmosphere out there in space, it just needs to be moved to Mars, and given time, it wouldn't be too expensive. Great sky show on those nights for the martian colonists,

      • Some plans believe that they could make a marginal atmosphere (cold, low oxygen, but breathable) within a hundred years or so. Sure, the atmosphere might float off, but that takes hundreds and thousands of years. I would say it is a pretty safe bet that barring the collapse of civilization, we can probably replace whatever is lost. Sure, it might mean that there is always equipment running on mars to keep the atmosphere from floating off, but that seems like I small price to play to gain control over an
      • By the time all the hydrogen and oxygen on Mars leak out its atmosphere we would have solved global warming on Earth, cold fusion and how to make Duke Nukem Forever run on Linux.

    • Little if any (Score:5, Informative)

      by everphilski ( 877346 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:50PM (#14150953) Journal
      To terraform you need to make an atmosphere. You need greenhouse gasses to do this. Water generally doesn't factor into the equation. A good reference is "The case for Mars" by Robert Zubrin (although I don't totally agree with him)

      -everphilski-

    • Re:Terraforming (Score:5, Funny)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:54PM (#14150992) Homepage Journal
      Depends on if we can send the governator to mars to reactivate the alien machines...
    • Emmm, we can't even terraform Earth to mitigate global warming, how likely we'll be able to do a much bigger job on MArs, without say the convenience of energy, air, equipment, labor, or the urge to do so?
      • It does help that we have a much easier time putting greenhouse gases into an atmosphere (what we need to do on Mars) rather than remove them from an atmosphere, or at least change our technology enough so that we stop releasing any more.

    • Re:Terraforming (Score:5, Funny)

      by nappingcracker ( 700750 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @05:33PM (#14151466)

      Ice makes terraforming quite easy.

      • 1. Get your ass to mars
      • 2. Enlist help of little people, mutants, and three breasted women
      • 3. Take Johnnycab to local Martian artifact/ruins
      • 4. Locate martian touchpad
      • 5. insert "spock-live-long-and-prosper" hand to lower alien reactor rods into ice
      • 6. Immediately play outside without EV suit, the planet will be completely pressurized and habitable before your head explodes.

      Cohagen, give those people air!

  • another material?! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by G3ckoG33k ( 647276 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:45PM (#14150898)
    "and could be caused by another material"

    WTF?! Sending an expedition to Mars, to find water (supposedly with the correct equipment to do so), and then come up with that, erm, statement. As an armchair astronomer, I find that a bit weak.
    • They shoulda used a spectrometer and not radar :)

      (resists urge to take a pot shot at ESA)

      -everphilski-
    • If you've got a good way for detecting, from orbit, the mineral composition of something 1.5 km beneath the surface, I'm sure there's a lot of NASA scientists that would like to hear about it.

      Otherwise, break out another beer, get back in your armchair, and quit dropping the remote control.

      • If you've got a good way for detecting, from orbit, the mineral composition of something 1.5 km beneath the surface, I'm sure there's a lot of NASA scientists that would like to hear about it.

        Forget NASA, there's alot of oil companies who would like to hear about that

    • This was the first pass over the region, and the data that is causing this news is from that single pass. Its probable that the other instruments were doing something else at the time, and the radar was being used to map the region. Since the data isnt coming back in real time, the only thing you can do is plan a second pass when the orbit allows it, this time with the instruments focused on the area of interest.

  • Most Puzzling Clue (Score:5, Funny)

    by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:46PM (#14150901)
    More detailed analysis of the radar image indicates that the shape of the flat region actually appears to be almost perfectly rectangular, with an aspect ratio of 4:9. Nobody is quite sure what to make of that.

  • Definately A Big Deal (Score:4, Insightful)

    by PlayfullyClever ( 934896 ) <playfull@playfullyclever.com> on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:46PM (#14150905) Homepage Journal
    This is a big deal. You don't find raw metal much on Mars; most of it is tied up with oxygen. Raw metal has many implications: if it is common, it can be a great source of base building. If the metals are rare on Earth as well, and they're common on Mars, they could provide a potential export source. If it is a meteor, and they're common, it could affect our models of how often Mars gets struck by meteors. Since the rock isn't buried, it could provide clues as to how long it's been on Mars, how fast Meridiani Planum is eroding, and give us dataon how metals wear over time on Mars.

    Any time you find something you've never found before, it's a big deal. Honestly, to people who've been following the mission, it looked like Opportunity was pretty much wrapping things up. It just left a geological treasure trove and there isn't much more "on the map", so to speak. It's neat to see it continue making nice finds.

  • Time loop? (Score:3, Funny)

    by voice_of_all_reason ( 926702 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:47PM (#14150913)
    Quaaaaaaaaid... Start the... reeeaaaaccctoooorrr....

  • headline creep (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mcguyver ( 589810 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:48PM (#14150930) Homepage
    Actual Scientist - If you put water there, that's what the signal might look like.
    newscientist.com - Radar reveals ice deep below Martian surface
    Slashdot.com - Vast Subsurface Martian Ice Discovered

    The headlines gets better and better!
    • NASA.com - NASA Scientists Say Martian Water "Could" Mean Life, Asks for More Funding
    • The way I read it was that it is pretty clear that there is lots of ice. The thing that is speculative is the presence of a liquid layer.
    • If there is water, there might be life!

      Actual Scientist - If you put water there, that's what the signal might look like.
      newscientist.com - Radar reveals ice deep below Martian surface
      Slashdot.com - Vast Subsurface Martian Ice Discovered
      Slashdot User: "Life descovered on Mars!"
    • I think you mean slashdot.org thank you very much
    • One more just make it complete...

      Slashdot.org (unimaginative troll) - I for one welcome our new aquatic martian overlords.

  • ICE-9 (Score:4, Funny)

    by Helmholtz ( 2715 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:48PM (#14150936) Homepage
    The surface of Mars is quite obviously a redistribution of dirt over the surface of oceans made solid by the ill fated use of ice-9 long ago in the Martian past.

  • Detecting Water (Score:5, Funny)

    by Matts ( 1628 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:51PM (#14150968) Homepage
    Everyone knows that to detect water in a deep crater you drop a stone in it and wait for the plopping noise.

    Jeez, and these guys call themselves scientists!

  • Turn your volume up! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Volanin ( 935080 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:54PM (#14150990)
    This sounds very interesting!
    Click here [esa.int] for an audio interview about the finding.

  • Radar shmadar (Score:2, Funny)

    by scolby ( 838499 )
    Where's the astronaut with the dousing rods?

  • A solution to global warming... (Score:5, Funny)

    by mustafap ( 452510 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @04:56PM (#14151020) Homepage

    All this moaning about the ice caps melting, lets just nip over there and bring some back!

  • Official news from ESA (Score:4, Informative)

    by Volanin ( 935080 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @05:00PM (#14151062)
    From ESA [esa.int]:

    For the first time in the history of planetary exploration, the MARSIS radar on board ESA's Mars Express has provided direct information about the deep subsurface of Mars.

    First data include buried impact craters, probing of layered deposits at the north pole and hints of the presence of deep underground water-ice.

    The subsurface of Mars has been so far unexplored territory. Only glimpses of the Martian depths could be deduced through analysis of impact crater and valley walls, and by drawing cross-sections of the crust deduced from geological mapping of the surface.

    With measurements taken only for a few weeks during night-time observations last summer, MARSIS - the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding - is already changing our perception of the Red Planet, adding to our knowledge the missing 'third' dimension: the Martian interior.

    First results reveal an almost circular structure, about 250 km in diameter, shallowly buried under the surface of the northern lowlands of the Chryse Planitia region in the mid-latitudes on Mars. The scientists have interpreted it as a buried basin of impact origin, possibly containing a thick layer of water-ice-rich material.

    To draw this first exciting picture of the subsurface, the MARSIS team studied the echoes of the radio waves emitted by the radar, which passed through the surface and then bounced back in the distinctive way that told the 'story' about the layers penetrated.

    These echo structures form a distinctive collection that include parabolic arcs and an additional planar reflecting feature parallel to the ground, 160 km long. The parabolic arcs correspond to ring structures that could be interpreted as the rims of one or more buried impact basins. Other echoes show what may be rim-wall 'slump blocks' or 'peak-ring' features.

    The planar reflection is consistent with a flat interface that separates the floor of the basin, situated at a depth of about 1.5 to 2.5 km, from a layer of overlying different material. In their analysis of this reflection, scientists do not exclude the intriguing possibility of a low-density, water-ice-rich material at least partially filling the basin.

    "The detection of a large buried impact basin suggests that MARSIS data can be used to unveil a population of hidden impact craters in the northern lowlands and elsewhere on the planet," says Jeffrey Plaut, Co-Principal Investigator on MARSIS. "This may force us to reconsider our chronology of the formation and evolution of the surface."

    MARSIS also probed the layered deposits that surround the north pole of Mars, in an area between 10 and 40 East longitude. The interior layers and the base of these deposits are poorly exposed. Prior interpretations could only be based on imaging, topographic measurements and other surface techniques.

    Two strong and distinct echoes coming from the area correspond to a surface reflection and subsurface interface between two different materials. By analysis of the two echoes, the scientists were able to draw the likely scenario of a nearly pure, cold water-ice layer thicker than 1 km, overlying a deeper layer of basaltic regolith. This conclusion appears to rule out the hypothesis of a melt zone at the base of the northern layered deposits.

    To date, the MARSIS team has not observed any convincing evidence for liquid water in the subsurface, but the search has only just begun. "MARSIS is already demonstrating the capability to detect structures and layers in the subsurface of Mars which are not detectable by other sensors, past or present," says Giovanni Picardi, MARSIS Principal Investigator.

    "MARSIS holds exciting promise to address, and possibly solve, a number of open questions of major geological significance," he concluded.

  • Total Recall called it first! (Score:3, Informative)

    by mozumder ( 178398 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @05:00PM (#14151065)
    "The entire core of Mars is made of ice. The reactor melts it, and it makes air!" - arnie

    now, let's see if we find some alien artifacts...
  • What! Jimmy Hoffa! that's where he's been all these years!
  • ...It's really just a copy of the Sony rootkit lurking beneath the surface.
  • The prospects for successful Martian colonization are looking better and better!

    Now we just need to start building some real (nuclear) spaceships.

  • This isn't the first evidence they have found of water on mars, see this article [nasa.gov]

  • Subsurface sounding of Mars is a great result in itself. It is unique to Mars exploration so far. The idea of looking at the equivalent of a seizmic profile on another planet blows my mind. No need for additional hyperbole or speculation. By the way, the results suggest subsurface water, not ice. Too bad they didn't provide an estimated depth legend. To the poster, RTFA.

  • "could be deduced"

    "have interpreted it as"

    "possibly containing"

    "could be interpreted as"

    "what may be"

    "the intriguing possibility"

    "prior interpretations"

    "scientists were able to draw the likely scenario"

    "but the search has only begun"

    Ahh yes, science. Where shades of gray run screaming from the cold hard face of objective facts!

  • Underground water (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mprx ( 82435 ) on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @05:41PM (#14151559)

    While it is from a website full of pseudoscience and unconvincing "fossil" photographs, I found this stereophoto (view with crossed eyes for 3d view) very interesting:

    http://xenotechresearch.com/geyop122.htm [xenotechresearch.com]

    I can't think of any possible explanation for this kind of geology other than water erosion. If there's liquid water below ground, maybe it's possible for it to reach the surface and remain liquid long enough to produce this feature.

  • Makes me think (Score:3, Insightful)

    by menkhaura ( 103150 ) <espinafre@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @07:16PM (#14152314) Homepage Journal
    We sit here, discussing about how to make an alien world suitable for our own needs, as if it belonged to us or something like that. How would we feel if we found out that, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, a bunch of hairy little green men, looking at this blue grain of dust traveling around a smallish nondescript star, discussed and moved to "tatooineform" it, ignorant or oblivious to our presence?

    I feel very uncomfortable talking about (possibly) someone else's world like this. It seems as if we were talking about taking posession of a seemingly abandoned house.

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