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Space Science

Black Hole in Search of a Home 115

Posted by Zonk from the don't-pick-up-that-hitchhiker dept.
jose parinas writes "Interesting news from the ESO observatory on Paranal about black holes that travel. From the article: 'For 19 of [the low redshift quasars], they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy. But when they studied the bright quasar HE0450-2958, located some 5 billion light-years away, they couldn't find evidence for an encircling galaxy. This, the astronomers suggest, may indicate a rare case of collision between a seemingly normal spiral galaxy and a much more exotic object harbouring a very massive black hole.'" More from the article: "Has the host galaxy been completely disrupted as a result of the collision? It is hard to imagine how that could happen. Has an isolated black hole captured gas while crossing the disc of a spiral galaxy? This would require very special conditions and would probably not have caused such a tremendous perturbation as is observed in the neighbouring galaxy. Another intriguing hypothesis is that the galaxy harbouring the black hole was almost exclusively made of dark matter." Update: 09/17 00:15 GMT by Z : Edited for clarity.
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Black Hole in Search of a Home More

Black Hole in Search of a Home

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  • Shiznit (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hope that doesn't happen to the milky way.

  • Hello? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DoubleEdd ( 178052 ) on Friday September 16, 2005 @06:47PM (#13581409)
    Could the moderators check the grammar before submitting?

    20 20 sounds like the results of an eyesight test, and ' found that for 19 of them, they found,' - what?

    • Re:Hello? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Seconded. Slashdot moderators, stop being horribly imcompetent!

      • Re:Hello? (Score:1, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Well, Slashdot moderators just rolled up a beta testing for their new method: Distributed Simian Grammar Checking... :P
    • It made me think it maybe may have been a an article on quantum mechanics of quantum...
    • The very sad thing is, the mistakes were introduced because someone mistakenly thought they actually knew the English language, and edited the original article.

      An international team of astronomers [1] used two of the most powerful astronomical facilities available, the ESO Very Large Telescope (VLT) at Cerro Paranal and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST), to conduct a detailed study of 20 low redshift quasars. For 19 of them, they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a

  • adoption (Score:5, Funny)

    by LiquidMind ( 150126 ) on Friday September 16, 2005 @06:49PM (#13581424)
    I volunteer to adopt it, I think it would make a great companion plus the added perk of being an infinite power source.
    *rolls up newspaper* but if it starts behaving badly, we're gonna have a problem.

    • Unfortunately it's super massive and eats anything that's near it.

      Sounds a lot like an ex-girlfriend.
    • But think of the money you'll save on grow lamps!

    • This black hole will bite the hand that feeds it.You are 0wn3d say big black letters for infinite amount of time. Can you imagine what will happen if such a rogue elephant comes wandering in our backyard? We will have much bigger problems to worry about.
      • Actually I doubt we will have much at all to worry about at that point. I dont believe there is much we can do about a singularity wandering through our backyard, especially at our current level of technology.
        • Something like that would be hard to miss. Once the UN *agreed* to do something it would be too late to save ther politicians, but I'd bet on Gates calling up Dell and the Walton family and building cheap rockets to get us out of here, using intel processors, windows vista, and sold at Wal*marts across the world. One could only hope they forgot to svae one for themselves.
    • Seriously though, put a turbine outside of a black hole, and as everything is sucked into the blackhole, electricity is generated. The turbine wouldn't fall into the blackhole as it would be a big ring/sphere all the way around.

      My plan is absolutely flawless.

      On another note, how on earth does Zonk get work on this site? Is he sucking off the owners?
      • I like to stick in my $0.02 when ever I can. :-)

        "Seriously though, put a turbine outside of a black hole, and as everything is sucked into the blackhole, electricity is generated."

        I must point out that time is relative and (from our perspective) time appears to slow around a black hole. Would that not drastically reduce the usable amount of power for those away from the blackhole?

        "My plan is absolutely flawless."

        So am I.
        -Kruton

        • I must point out that time is relative and (from our perspective) time appears to slow around a black hole. Would that not drastically reduce the usable amount of power for those away from the blackhole?

          You're absolutely correct. The time distortion does reduce the available power. The sheer magnitude of the forces, however, makes up fantastically for the temporal effect. In fact, tidal forces at decent proximity to the event horizon will make protons and neutrons flow like water (the quarks and gluons i

          • Re:adoption (Score:2, Informative)

            by Xilman ( 191715 )
            In fact, tidal forces at decent proximity to the event horizon will make protons and neutrons flow like water (the quarks and gluons in some cases as well...)

            Only for sufficiently small black holes. There is nothing locally special about a region near the event horizon. If the BH is big enough, 100M solar masses say, the tidal forces at its event horizon are small enough to let an astronaut pass through it without ill-effect. The same can not be said of the experiences encountered much closer to the s

    • I wouldn't mind having a spare power source for my Type 40.

  • Stephens theories,.... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by crkpot ( 915189 )
    I would be interested in how this data applies to the Stephen Hawkings theory of radiation expelled at the end of a Black hole - his come-back theory that everyone is still waiting to hear about. Dark Matter though compelling leaves us with more questions than answers.
    • You mean Hawking radiation? From what I remember, Hawking radiation is inversely proportional to the size of the black hole, so the radiation emited from a supermassive black hole like those in Quasars is almost non-existant.

  • I'll never sleep again (Score:5, Funny)

    by Eradicator2k3 ( 670371 ) on Friday September 16, 2005 @06:53PM (#13581447)
    "...a much more exotic object harbouring a very massive black hole."

    This brings Uhura's "exotic" dance in Star Trek V to mind.

  • Oh sure.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 16, 2005 @06:53PM (#13581449)
    You let one in and there goes the whole neighborhood!
  • From the article: 'Astronomers investigating 20 20 low redshift quasars, found that for 19 of them, they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy.

    Well, it's nice to see Slashdot editors actually implementing one of the community's ideas [slashdot.org]. Some suggested that submitting test phrases to /. would be the way to get started; it's only been two days, and already the software seems to be going into production. Of course, it'll be awhile before the program gets out o

  • Article summary (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jaymzter ( 452402 )
    Astronomers investigating 20 20 low redshift quasars, found that for 19 of them, they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy.

    Definitely a case of grammatical structure in search of a home!

  • i for one... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    welcome our black hole throwing overloads...

    its all fun and games untill someones galaxy gets hit with a black hole...

  • I've seen something like this... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Has an isolated black hole captured gas while crossing the disc of a spiral galaxy?

    If it's anything like my uncle, it doesn't capture gas, it releases it... in large quantities...
  • And not in my backyard.
    • Yes, before you know it, there will be all sorts of orphan planets and dark stars hanging around, doing absolutely nothing useful.

      Believe it or not, Jay Leno just mentioned this story on his late night show (9/16). Astronomy is not his usual subject matter, to say the least.

      Michael

  • Why couldn't it have (Score:5, Interesting)

    by geekoid ( 135745 ) <dadinportland@y[ ]o.com ['aho' in gap]> on Friday September 16, 2005 @07:12PM (#13581561) Homepage Journal
    just 'consumed' the galaxy it started with? sure it would take a long time, but it's probably been there a long time.
    • The major problem with having a black hole eat an entire galaxy is conservation of angular momentum.
      • i have no problem with it

      • Re:Why couldn't it have (Score:1, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        The major problem with having a black hole eat an entire galaxy is conservation of angular momentum.

        Bloody EPA gets everywhere!

      • Why is this a problem? Wouldn't it just spin up the hole?
    • Actualy (according to current theories) it would take literaly forever. This is due to the fact that intense gravity causes the same sort of time-dilation effect as high acceleration, resulting in matter which (from the perspective of an outside observer) falls ever more slowly towards the event horizon, without actualy crossing it.

      Maybe. :)

  • ...honey, I shrunk my galaxy

  • Chiral Dark Matter Galaxies (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 16, 2005 @07:15PM (#13581578)
    The newest evidence hints that these types of dark matter galaxies are chiral in nature. Recent polarization readings of the detected light show that this quasar may be in a galaxy comprised of approximately 10^42 unmatched left socks. Another recently discovered quasar seems to be in a similar galaxy filled with unmatched right socks.

    Scientists are baffled as to how the different handed socks ended up in completely separate galaxies. However, some have stated that the apparent long-range transport phenomenon does provide hints for the mechanisms behind unexplained sock behaviors in this part of the universe.

  • Dark matter? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bradbury ( 33372 ) <Robert.Bradbury@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Friday September 16, 2005 @07:18PM (#13581594) Homepage
    An alternative explanation which is seldom discussed is that there could be a completely developed (mature) galaxy composed entirely of Kardashev Type II civilizations, also known as Matrioshka Brains [aeiveos.com]. As was pointed out by Marvin Minsky at the Byurakan CETI conference in 1971 *advanced* civilizations, for thermodynamic efficiency reasons, will radiate their waste heat at slightly above the cosmic microwave background temperature. The VLT and HST which were used in these studies are incapable of detecting radiation at these wavelengths so any galaxies being managed by advanced civilizations would effectively be invisible.

    A reasonable person might well consider an explanation that included the natural evolution of advanced technological civilizations before they resorted to the invention of new particles and laws of physics (as is typically a requirement as soon as you mention 'dark matter').

    It is useful to keep in mind that several papers by Charley Lineweaver's [anu.edu.au] group document that ~70% of the "Earth's" in our galaxy are significantly older than ours (perhaps billions of years older). It would not be that unexpected that from time to time we might encounter a galaxy where advanced civilizations had placed *all* of the reasonably available matter and energy "under management". (For the purposes of discussion we will assume that black holes do not constitute a "reasonably available" useful resource despite proposals from time to time that require rather creative physics to make them "useful".)

    • Re:Dark matter? (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "...so any galaxies being managed by advanced civilizations would effectively be invisible"
      ..except that the quasar itself was very detectable . That means we're either dealing with (1) an incredibly advanced civilization that for some reason keeps all the radiated energy from everything in their galaxy except the quasar for themselves, or (2) a quasar without a galaxy around it.

      Surely such an advanced civilization wouldn't let all the energy (and it would be quite a lot of energy if we can detect it all
    • Dark matter? (Score:3, Interesting)
      by bradbury (33372)

      You might have a low ID, but I'm guessing you're not Ray Bradbury. (Not that argumentum to eminentum authoritum or argumentum againstum hominem are worth anything, though, but it's still funny.)

      And the reference to some dude at the Bogatonic SETI conference over thirty years ago has a disturbing resemblance to the infamous "Proof by reference to inaccessible literature" found on the classic joke proof list (including such items as "Proof by vigorous hand

      • Re:Dark matter? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by bradbury ( 33372 ) <Robert.Bradbury@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Saturday September 17, 2005 @11:07AM (#13585028) Homepage
        No, I'm not Ray, though I am very distantly related. So you don't feel I'm appealing to "inaccessible literature", I post the following from the source proceedings (edited by Sagan).

        Dyson had made a set of points, one of which was:
        "Point 3. If a society is very highly developed technologically, it must emit intense infrared radiation, not necessarily a planetary spectrum, but necessarily a large intensity of infrared radiation, whether or not this society wishes to communicate. Consequently, we should use infrared radiation, as a signpost indicating priority areas toward which we should direct searches by radio and other techniques."

        There was some discussion which eventually led to the following exchange:

        OLIVER: Why do you suggest civilizations must of necessity produce large amounts of infrared radiation? It seems to me that the infrared radiation that would be produced by even a very much farther advanced civilization than ours would be negligible compared to their primary star. For example, in California, which has a very high usage of electricity, the power generation at the present time is only 0.1 percent of the sunlight falling on the state.

        DYSON: What I am saying is that the civilizations which are observable to us will have this character.

        OLIVER: But you are suggesting, are you not, that the infrared emission will be an observable characteristic? I am suggesting it is far down in the stellar noise.

        DYSON: No, I am saying that the generation of large amounts of infrared radiation is not necessarily an accompaniment of a high civilization at all. Only if it occurs is it something we can see.

        MINSKY: Since radiation at any temperature above 3K is wasteful and a squandering of natural resources, the higher the civilization, the lower the infrared radiation. We should look for extended sources of 4K radiation. There should be very few natural such sources.

        DYSON: I don't quite go along with this but to some extent you are right.

        The reason that Dyson didn't go along with this is because he still tended to view "advanced" civilizations as those operating on the basis of "biological" systems (remember this is 1971!) rather than engineered computational systems which can function at a much wider temperature range (in fact Likharev's "Rapid Single Flux Quantum Logic [sunysb.edu]" (based on Josephson junctions) *have* to operate at temperatures much closer to those Minsky suggests). Thus AIs constructed of such devices would emit IR at a temperatures much lower than "primitive" civilizations (i.e. "wet" brain based) which function at the liquid water temperatures that Dyson tended to prefer.

        The theories behind Matrioshka Brains are in large part based on Minsky's observation, which are in turn related to Dyson's perspective reagarding Dyson "spheres" (really shells). They are however updated to recognize the fact that computational architectures which can support intelligence (and therefore advanced civilizations) can operate over a much wider temperature range (both higher and lower) than liquid water can provide.

        The complete proceedings from the conference [amazon.com] can be purchased from Amazon for $3-7.

    • Re:Dark matter? (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      > It is useful to keep in mind that several papers by Charley Lineweaver's [anu.edu.au] group document that ~70% of the "Earth's" in our galaxy are significantly older than ours (perhaps billions of years older). It would not be that unexpected that from time to time we might encounter a galaxy where advanced civilizations had placed *all* of the reasonably available matter and energy "under management".

      Bullshi*hey, hang on a sec*

      At ~1% of c, we're talking 500 years to Alpha Centauri. (400 years of

      • One problem - how many people does it take to build a spaceship? Most likely more than would fit inside the ship. So, you need a few generations of growth just to begin construction. And why would people with a perfectly good planet with a Texas-per-person of open space want to get back on a ship for a few hundred years to find another planet which is most likely no better than the one they're already on?

        If people multiplied like rats I could see the colony time being every 1000 years or so, but most lik
        • This is such a '60s reply. The days when "people" will be doing things like construction are numbered. Read my Sapphire Mansions [aeiveos.com] paper. By the 2nd half of this century it is highly likely that nanorobots will be performing all of the construction activities. One can consider nanorobots to be like bacteria. If one built self-replication capabilities into them and can supply them with sufficient resources they, like bacteria, could multiply to the mass of the Earth within 2 days. (But anyone who underst
    • The VLT and HST which were used in these studies are incapable of detecting radiation at these wavelengths so any galaxies being managed by advanced civilizations would effectively be invisible.

      We detect quasars because they emit so much damn radiation. We assume this is from the accretion disk around a black hole. Why would such an advanced civilization put out so much usable energy?

      Because you have no clue what you're talking about.
      • I can assure you that VLT is capable of detecting the radiation at almost any wavelenght. VLT (Very Large Telescope) is an Observatory that contains five telescopes, each one with at least two instruments, and every instrument is set to different wavelengths. See more at www.paranal.cl.
      • There are a couple of possibilities. First, if the black hole developed very early in galactic history (before there were any ATC) and accumulated a large amount of very distributed mass it may simply not be worth the expense to try and harvest the mass from a gravity well that deep. Second, because black holes do accelerate infalling matter to such great velocities most of the energy comes off in the UV and esp. X-rays which are very difficult to convert into more usable energy forms. The photons have s
    • "A reasonable person might well consider an explanation that included the natural evolution of advanced technological civilizations before they resorted to the invention of new particles and laws of physics (as is typically a requirement as soon as you mention 'dark matter')."

      You must be new around here. Intelligent Design is rather out-of-vogue around here right now.
  • If the Big-Bang was discovered to be just a stage in the Steady State Theory?

  • Update: 09/17 00:15 GMT by Z : Edited for clarity (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Holy Fscking Shirt! This has got to be a first! A Slashbot actually edited content!

    G f'n D - Hell finally froze over!
  • I read that headline as: a black hole was discovered in someone's home.
    I can imagine the scenario:
    Man: Don't go in there officer, trust me!
    Officer: Are you trying to hide something boy?
    Man: No, it's just that, umm...
    Officer: Well we'll just see about what's behind this door, shall we? ...Noooooooo...being sucked in...force of gravity too powerful...aaaaaaahhhhh!!!
  • ...sucks news from /.

    Love slashdot, but digg.com is going to suck this user base dry.
    Not only is this and many other stories old news, you get too much Gay Nigers of America and First Post crap.

    Mod me down, but we are getting to a point of critical mass here.
  • Hungry Hungry Hippos, and just ran out of stars.

  • It's that simple. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Hurricane78 ( 562437 ) <deleted@slash[ ].org ['dot' in gap]> on Friday September 16, 2005 @09:59PM (#13582268)
    The host galaxy is *inside* the black hole. It got "eaten" completely. To me this sounds pretty realistic if it's a huge black hole...
    • The galaxy couldn't have 'fallen in' the black hole, more than Earth 'fall in' the sun, or the moon can 'fall' on Earth. Unless something has bled all the angular momentum out, galaxies would just spin around the black hole for some time.
      • Constant leaking could lead to this... And as we see it in the universe this could be the normal case. But you're partially right: We can't know it, and there must be some momentum killer for this to happen. (Even if it's only the light-energy and supernova-material from the stars...)

  • "Complete disruption of a galaxy?" (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What if the supermassive black hole was rotating such that it's poles were pointing into the disk of the parent galaxy?

    The artilce mentions that there is eveidence that a companion galaxy has collided witht the quarsar withing the last 100 million years or so (relative to the observation).

    If so, when the collision occured and provided material to feed the quasar, the polar jets would have plowed right into the parent galaxy, and perhaps blowing away the gas in the disk over that 100 million year period.

    Any
  • The sixth day God said: let the super-massive black hole swallow this entire galaxy, and he saw it was good.
    • The sixth day God said: let the super-massive black hole swallow this entire galaxy, and he saw it was good.
      Sometimes we bother. She told me (made me to tell you). Sometimes we bother. Björk, Björk...
  • Edited for clarity.

    Hey, Slashdot has a tradition to uphold!
    Or actually... A reputation to improve!

  • Is there a web based equivalent for google earth but in the other direction? Where you can zoom in on coordinates and see ever higher resolutions? If not, why the &#%$ not?

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