Making Ice Without Electricity 608
j-beda writes "Time Magazine is running an article telling us how Dave Williams is trying to make ice for third-world applications using the Hilsch-Ranque vortex-tube effect (first developed in 1930 by G.J. Ranque), where swirling air is split into hot and cold components." The method is horribly inefficient but Williams is hoping it could yield helpful results in areas where electricity is really not an option.
Hrm. (Score:5, Funny)
In Winnipeg we just leave water outside for a few minutes.
In Soviet Russia... (Score:3, Funny)
In Soviet America... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Insightful)
After all, any fool knows that a catagory 4 hurricane, broken levee's, 10 feet of flood water, and the breakdown of social order shouldn't require any pesky government meddling to deal with. Just gutsy individuals with a can-do attitude!
Those dang people should quit whinging and get over their "victim" mentality.
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:3, Insightful)
I was referring to the dependence on government aid to rebuild. That's what insurance is for, but as you will soon see, that insurance is going to be paid for by me and every other tax payer in America.
And I was referring to the morons that stayed behind when they could have
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, the states asked for aid, and Bush signed a state of emergency, BEFORE Katrina hit. There was no question about authority. FEMA and the federal government had all the authority and responsibility in this situation.
Secondly FEMA dropped the ball so badly because we have had five years of a government that thinks just like you do. The Bush adminstration has so little respect for government agencies that they choked them with insufficient budgets and apointed unqualified cronies to run them, forcing out experienced disaster management people. Read the recent columns by Paul Krugman and Thomas Friedman in the NYT for lots of details.
Is it any wonder New Orleans got the response it did with the leaders we have?
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Informative)
That's not how the system is set up. FEMA had authority to act, but only where specifically requested to act by state government. The governer can call of FEMA for help with any problem state and local responders can't handle, but FEMA can't act except where specific help is requested. What *usually* happens is that the state EMA says "command and control is something we can't handle, please take that over", and FEMA does, allowing them to use their own initiative. This did *not* happen in LA, and still hasn't happened.
Also, using the national guard for policing (which was desperately needed) is outside of FEMA entirely unless the president invokes the insurrection act, which would have been a very scary precedent! The governer must effectively deputize the guardsmen, as there is no martial law in the LA constitution. The governer must also directly request guardsmen from other states (they were offered, bu not requested).
Basically, Blanco refused to give up control to people who actually had a plan. It takes more than just declaring a state of emergency (which is a prerequisite), you also have to *explicitly* relinquish command and control to FEMA if you want them to run the show.
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:3, Informative)
well, apparently, yes and no. The state controls the guard, and any national troops deployed report to the guard it would seem. I found this interesting tidbit on nola.com
Re: engineering around government (Score:3, Insightful)
But besides that, the super-dome was engineered to withstand a hurricane, and had food and supplies for thousands of people. What they didn't count on was that levies w
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:4, Insightful)
In my limited experience, I have found that people who share your worldview have seldom faced poverty or any real need... more often, that worldview seems to be an excuse for conservatives to convince themselves that there is no class, and that poor people choose to be poor.
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:3, Insightful)
I vote because it's better than not voting (I suppose). I wouldn't pay taxes if I had that option. All 300M of us would probably do a heck of a lot better than you would think, were some of us not so conditioned to sucking on Uncle Sam's teets for sustenance.
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:4, Insightful)
The school buses were part of the evac plan, ask why they were neatly parked and padlocked untill they were covered with 5 feet of water instead.
Ask what the mayor was waiting for; ask why the governor took so long to declair an official emergency so the feds would have dictatorial power to do the right thing, ask why the state turned away a red cross convoy bringing blankets, food, water and generaters to the superdome
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hrm. (Score:2)
Rollin', in my 5.0 with the top left back so my hair can blow...
Re:Hrm. (Score:5, Funny)
Rollin', in my 5.0 with the top left back so my hair can blow...
I dunno. Let's find out.
Rollin'... in my 5.0,
With my rag top down so my hair can blow,
The voltage is on standby, costs of icin' too high,
(Did you stop?) No, I just froze, by
Freon - pursuin' temp'rature drop,
Compressor's dead, yo, so I continued to,
George J. Ranque, Hilsch-Ranque vortex tube!
Peltier's hot, like electrical bikinis,
And I got no voltage from the Lamborghinis,
Warmin' - cause I'm out thawin' mine,
Got my compressor gauge, readin' PSI "9"
Vaccuum - for the mods on the wall,
Mods are actin' ill because they had their 8 LOLs
Hissin' - through the compressor shell,
I clamped the hose, but it was shot to hell,
Ozone - burnin' up like real fast,
Registration link at time-mag suckin' goat ass
Readin' the Wiki, the 'pedia's packed,
Thermodynamics 'bout how the fridge is jacked.
Third law on the scene - you know what I mean,
A million RPM? Efficiency is unseen,
If it's a solution, this don't solve it
Pump out the heat while the Hilsch-Ranque revolves it
(Vanilla) Ice Ice Geeky, too cold...
Re:Hrm. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hrm. (Score:2)
Re:Hrm. (Score:5, Interesting)
You jest, but truth is stranger than fiction...
During the first half of the nineteenth century, an enterprising Boston chap by name of Frederic Tudor made his name - and his fortune -harvesting enormous chunks of ice from frozen lakes in Massachusetts, packing them into sailing ships insulated with sawdust (supplied by the Maine timber-mills), and exporting them around the world. By the time artificial refrigeration marked the end the "frozen water trade" in the mid 1800s, they were sending 100-ton shipments of ice as far afield as the Caribbean and Calcutta.
The whole story is told in Gavin Weightman's The Frozen Water Trade [amazon.com], if you want to know more.
Venetian Snares was right then? (Score:2)
Re:Hrm. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Hrm. (Score:5, Interesting)
If you build a solar reflector, but only employ it at night the items inside will become cold, and can attain temperatures below freezing.
Doesn't work as well on cloudy nights (you are essentially 'beaming' the heat out into the great heatsink called space) and it has to be well insulated from the environment around it (ground, air, etc).
-Adam
Re:Hrm. (Score:5, Informative)
------
In September 1999, we placed two funnels out in the evening, with double-bagged jars inside. One jar was on a block of wood and the other was suspended in the funnel using fishing line. The temperature that evening (in Provo, Utah) was 78 F. Using a Radio Shack indoor/outdoor thermometer, a BYU student (Colter Paulson) measured the temperature inside the funnel and outside in the open air. He found that the temperature of the air inside the funnel dropped quickly by about 15 degrees, as its heat was radiated upwards in the clear sky. That night, the minimum outdoor air temperature measured was 47.5 degrees - but the water in both jars had ICE. I invite others to try this, and please let me know if you get ice at 55 or even 60 degrees outside air temperature (minimum at night). A black PVC container may work even better than a black-painted jar, since PVC is a good infrared radiator - these matters are still being studied.
I would like to see the "Funnel Refrigerator" tried in desert climates, especially where freezing temperatures are rarely reached. It should be possible in this way to cheaply make ice for Hutus in Rwanda and for aborigines in Australia, without using any electricity or other modern "tricks." We are in effect bringing some of the cold of space to a little corner on earth. Please let me know how this works for you.
------
This is an experiment you can conduct yourself. It may be that without advanced insulation (maybe straw wasn't enough?) one couldn't obtain ice in the desert, but given good modern materials the physics suggests that it would work well.
-Adam
Re:Hrm. (Score:5, Informative)
All other things being equal, if an object is absorbing more infrared heat radiation than it is releasing, then it gains heat. This one of the forms of radiation the sun puts out that heats the earth's surface (though lots of radiation is harmlessly bounced off the atmosphere or converted before it reaches the ground).
Since the clear night sky contributes little radiation to the earth the earth's surface radiates and cools off more quickly than it heats up. By using reflectors one can increase the surface area of the radiation and gain greater cooling, just as solar collectors with reflectors can gain greater energy with the sun shining on them.
-Adam
You'll have to pedal really fast... (Score:2)
Re:You'll have to pedal really fast... (Score:2)
Re:You'll have to pedal really fast... (Score:4, Funny)
Clean water first??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Clean water first??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Clean water first??? (Score:5, Informative)
1. A freeze/thaw cycle kills many (not all) microorganisms--ice crystals shred cell membranes, and freezing can mangle the protein coat on viruses. A number of tropical parasitic organisms aren't well adapted to the cold, either.
2. You can remove some dissolved chemical contaminants if you don't freeze all the water. As water freezes, the assembly of regular ice crystals tends to force impurities out into the remaining liquid. If you stop after you've frozen four-fifths of the water, then you can throw out that last twenty percent that contains the concentrated contaminants. Ice that forms on bodies of salt water is almost pure water, because the salt is driven into the liquid phase by the freezing process.
Re:Clean water first??? (Score:2)
Re:Clean water first??? (Score:2)
Re:Clean water first??? (Score:3, Insightful)
The only use for this is in refrigerators and keeping food fresh.
Which is a major advance of civilization. It's not as if all areas that lack electricity are equal. Some already have clean water, but a lack of refrigeration would allow more local storage of perishable food for one thing. I'm sure there's many other benefits to the economy I'm not aware of.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Make or Sell? (Score:2)
Well clearly Tanqueray is fronting the cash, and as long as it costs less than fifteen locals on Gilligan generator bikes hooked to a Sub-Zero, they're going ahead with it.
Could be useful (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Could be useful (Score:2)
Already done! (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091557/ [imdb.com]
Re:Already done! (Score:5, Funny)
New definition of "moving parts" (Score:2, Insightful)
> The vortex tube, also known as the Hilsch-Ranque vortex tube, is a heat pump with no moving parts
> ressurized gas is injected into a specially designed chamber and accelerated to a high rate of rotation (over 1,000,000 rpm).
How can you rotate anything without moving parts???
Re:New definition of "moving parts" (Score:5, Informative)
The gas moves into the chamber under pressure. The chamber is shaped to send the gas into a whirling vortex. Then the hot molecules go one way and the cold ones go the other. But I think it takes very high pressures to produce the required speeds.
I know nothing about this... (Score:2)
Re:New definition of "moving parts" (Score:2)
I thought of that right after posting, yet despite "excellent" karma, I still have to wait 5 minutes before posting...
Re:New definition of "moving parts" (Score:2)
Because, presumably, the compressor isn't located anywhere near where you're trying to do this at. And there's no grid to move the power from point A to point B.
Consider the pressurized air cannisters as a form of battery. A hideously inefficient, highly limited form (although pressurized air may be superior to electric power in some ways, this isn't one of them).
Of course, I questio
Dr. Brown (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Dr. Brown (Score:2, Informative)
He also perfected that machine that made breakfast automatically in the morning which was a mess when he tried it in 1985.
Oh and yeah, a time machine powered by steam but thats the only part of the movie I didn't find plausable
Re:Dr. Brown (Score:3, Informative)
I read TFA, and... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I read TFA, and... (Score:2)
Re:I read TFA, and... (Score:5, Interesting)
I make ice and keep things cold EVERY time I go camping without electricity. in fact I make a fire to make things cold.
that type of freezer/fridge has been around for decades and are pretty efficient now compared to electric units.
I use maybe 10 pounds of Propane to run my RV fridge for 3 months straight.
I'm all for inventing new ways of doing it, but to "help the poor in africa" is not the way to try out new stuff.
give them a fridge with a coil plate they can build a fire under or will allow an oil lamp burner to keep it running (yes this works) and use that old tech that simply works.
Re:Adsorption cooling (Score:3, Informative)
You might want to be a little more careful not to contradict yourself when "correcting" somebody.
The total system pressure sets the temperature at which the boiler will have to run to boil the ammonia/water solution - so to use a low grade heat source you would have to run a lower system pressure in order to allow the low grade heat to boil the mix and run the cycle.
??? = electricity = ice: More efficient (Score:2)
What's the point? (Score:2)
It seems entirely counter productive to me. This kind of phenomenon seems like it's usefull in situations where you aren't worried about energy cost, but mabe some other concerns (like rapidly cooling something?)
Seems kind of pointless. (Score:2)
2. You still have to have the energy to compress the air.
3. High pressure air systems do not take abuse well and can be very dangerous.
4. This thing will be noisy as all get out.
Yea he says that you could use wind, water, and or solar to power this thing but you could do the same with conventional cooling systems as well. Solid state cooling systems would be far more sturdy and a conventional compressor based system far more efficent.
Re:Seems kind of pointless. (Score:2)
2. You still have to have the energy to compress the air.
3. High pressure air systems do not take abuse well and can be very dangerous.
4. This thing will be noisy as all get out.
You forgot:
5. ???
6. Profit!
I think Step 5 goes something like this:
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Kapiche?
Why not just make electricity? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why not just make electricity? (Score:5, Funny)
There's a reson why electicity is a freakin' universal component of modern societies people. It's EASY to produce, so easy that's it's just about goddamn trivial since there's dozens of different ways to go about it, and NONE of them involve ridiculously ineffcient and complex methods like "ice without electricity" does.
Hell, why not work on "masturbation without enjoyment" too, that should be just as useful.
bo-ring (Score:2)
I've already done that, it's called sex with my spouse.
Re:Why not just make electricity? (Score:5, Informative)
Or, we have found First and Second Prize winners in the "Talk out your ass without knowing anything" game.
If either one of you had bothered to look into this device for even a moment, oh I don't know, maybe here [cockerill.net] for example, you'd know that they aren't spinning anything at a million RPM. It is a device that has no moving parts. Basically, and I'll boil it down for you, you blow in one end and two streams come out, one hotter and one colder. It's the vortex inside that can reach a million RPM.
If you can find a way (and this, I assume, is what he's still working on) to get enough air through it then you can get the cold stream very cold indeed, which is useful.
I've never been to anywhere that qualifies as Third-World, but I assume that simple is better. With no moving parts this is as simple as it gets, if a way can be found to get enough gas through it. Perhaps it's wind, or volcanic gases, or storing composting gas, or simply the hot air generated by your armchair engineering, the point is that he's looking into it to try to help people, and you didn't look into it and are helping no one.
Re:Why not just make electricity? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Why not just make electricity? (Score:3, Insightful)
a car alternator can be ad anywhere, fix a sproket to it, modify a bike and BINGO!! you have a electricity generator. get tricky and put a battery and a 12V inverter in the mix (all of which can be had extremely cheap and easily acquired in any country) and you have what you need to run a plethora of electrical devices.
everyone keeps missing one really important thing.
most everyone in villages in africa could care less if they had electricity. they have lived fo
Compressed Gas in the 3rd world? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wasting Away Again (Score:2)
Margaritaville without electricity...
Why not gas absorption? (Score:2)
There was even a pretty cool movie [imdb.com] made based on it.
Re:Why not gas absorption? (Score:2)
Re:Why not gas absorption? (Score:2)
Re:Why not gas absorption? (Score:5, Interesting)
The funny part ? They still work flawlessly, and have not been serviced since at least 1977 ( In know this for a fact as thats when my grandad passed away)
Their electric consumption is actually minimal, running both all month equates to about a 60$ electricity increase. Unreal if you ask me, I kept thinking we were on an electric budget the first summer I fired em up in 20 years as it was way to hot for my grandma without air so I told her I would cover the bill. it never went up....
The beauty is these units will spill the ammonia outsie through the exhaust should the coils ever rupture (I doubt it since they are about 1/8 in thick copper
Misleading title (Score:2, Funny)
What's the big deal? (Score:3, Informative)
1) Flexible solar panels (less efficient but more portable than glass)
2) A handful of Peltiers... they're pretty small
3) A couple of cans of "Great Stuff" spray-in insulation, or cans of A-B component expanding insulation
One of my friends went to Peru to assemble a non-electric solar water purifier, and anything they couldn't carry on their backs on 30-mile-a-day hikes for a week didn't go. Now that's a design constraint!
Easier ways to make ice in electric-poor areas (Score:2, Interesting)
2. Solar cells used to create it and charge batteries at the same time.
Inefficiency is in the eyes of the beholder.
Electricity "Not An Option?" (Score:2)
Because it would be far more efficient to just hook the energy source right up to a conventional refrigeration compressor, surely.
All in all, it sounds to me like the Sun Frost [sunfrost.com] people have a better plan, as far as sunny places go, at least.
Alternative uses...Uranium enrichment (Score:2, Insightful)
Where does the power come from? (Score:2)
It is an inefficient system, so why not use the same power source for something more efficient like a peltier junction?
How inefficient? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why not use electricity? (Score:5, Insightful)
If someone wants to do something really interesting for the third world, make an adsorbtion freezer using solar concentrators for the heat source. This article discusses some issues: http://me.sjtu.edu.cn/english/scientific_research
And while you're at it (Score:3, Interesting)
And while you're at it, a solar concentrating mirror (or foil arrangement), without a greenhouse-forming glass layer, pointed at a cloudless night sky, makes ice REALLY well.
The night sky (absent clouds and above the atmosphere) is four degrees absolute - and it's not THAT much warmer from ground level even with the mostly sub-zero greenhouse gas layers floating a
Full article (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816
You're not missing much, though -- I'm guessing this one was a sidebar blurb, as it's only two paragraphs anyways.
Reinventing the wheel? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov99/941723
Of course, the large temperature difference between the day and night in the desert it what drives it. That method probably won't work in tropical climates.
-Charles
Re:Reinventing the wheel? (Score:5, Funny)
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, public health, and making ice without electricity, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Re:Reinventing the wheel? (Score:3, Funny)
They arranged for the disposal of that inconvenient rebel known as 'The Christ'?
Useful (Score:2)
Article text (Score:2, Informative)
Where would the compressed air come from? (Score:2)
This doesn't work with wind.
Physics of Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tubes (Score:5, Informative)
here is a picture of one (Score:5, Informative)
HERE [google.com]
1.000.000 RPM (Score:3, Interesting)
10000000 rpm could be acheivd with mules and huge gears?
To make that "high rate of rotation (over 1,000,000 rpm)." Better use the ice on your legs after.
If you press a gas into a cylinder with a specific angle, it starts to rotate at a very high rpm. Here is the construction [freeserve.co.uk].
Please RTFM first.
Simpler Idea (Score:4, Funny)
Compressor? (Score:2)
Ah Maxwell's Demon... (Score:2)
Kerosene refrigerator (Score:4, Informative)
Although we certainly used our fridge for food and ice, it was also very important to refrigerate meds for the clinic in our village.
Nothing New! (Score:5, Funny)
The big question is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The big question is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The big question is... (Score:4, Interesting)
If I wanted to make ice in a place like back-woods Hati; I think a solar-collector connected to a couple stirling engines would be the way to go, one engine makes kinetic energy from the solar heat, the second refirgerates form the kinetic input of the first engine; sterling refrigerators are capable of acheiving cryogenic temeratures
Re:The big question is... (Score:3, Insightful)
=Smidge=
Re:Third World? (Score:2)
-Borg Queen. Star Trek First Contact
Oh go ahead. With everything you've got.
Re:Third World? (Score:2)
Re:Third World? (Score:2)
Re:Let's be honest here (Score:2)
Um, no. Where in the world did you get that interpretation?
It's because generating electricity means you need to build a turbine, or dam a river, or something along those lines along with having enough copper wire and other necessities to store, transfer, and transform the current. And there are plenty of places on this wide blue ball we call Earth where those thin
Re:Let's be honest here (Score:2)