Help Solve the Mystery of the Pioneer Anomaly 473
deglr6328 writes "Very soon, NASA will be dismantling and scrapping its only computer left which is able to access and process the data on its ancient 7- and 9-track magnetic tapes. "Who cares", you say? Well, the Planetary Society for one and they're hoping you might care as well. The data held on these (few hundred) tapes is no ordinary forgettable data, it is the complete archive of the first 15 years of all the data returned to Earth by the Pioneer spacecraft which were sent into interstellar space. This additional and thus far unexamined data (the data after 1988 is available and has already been examined) may hold the key to solving what is considered one of the top problems in physics today, the so called Pioneer anomaly, where the observed trajectory of these spacecraft (and a couple others) deviates noticeably from our very precise expectation. The reason for the anomaly may be as mundane as uneven radiation pressure or escaping thruster fuel or it may be as groundbreaking as a clue to completely new physics, perhaps related to dark matter or dark energy. The Planetary Society is planning on recovering this data and poring over it meticulously to look for something which may have been missed or hidden from current investigations into the phenomenon. They need money to do this, about $250,000, and are asking for donations to fund the project. You do not need to be a member to donate. There are no serious proposals to send any more spin-stabilized spacecraft on solar escape trajectories any time in the near future and this is probably the only tenable method we have to directly investigate this mystery in the interim."
It's obviously an alien plot. (Score:2, Funny)
2.???
3.Profit!
Re:It's obviously an alien plot. -- missing step (Score:5, Funny)
2.Blockbuster movie staring famous Scientologist.
3.Profit!
Re:It's obviously an alien plot. (Score:3, Funny)
1. Deviate spacecrafts from their precisely-planned flightpaths
2. Set up space advocacy group and beg for donations to help solve "mystery" introduced in step 1.
3. Profit!
Re:It's obviously an alien plot. (Score:5, Funny)
UFO - 500 zarbos
Tractor beam - 100 zarbos
Antimatter fuel - 30 zarbos
Confusing the puny humans for decades - priceless
Re:It's obviously an alien plot. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's obviously an alien plot. (Score:3, Funny)
I solved my mystery (Score:4, Funny)
I can help (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I can help (Score:5, Funny)
An 8-track? With genuine mono sound!?
Does your Charger also have a device for slowing and speeding up the passage of time?
Re:I can help (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I can help (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe we can use the leftover track from reading the 7-track tapes to our advantage...
Re:I can help - RTFA please (Score:3, Interesting)
Will you please RTFA. It clearly says 7 and 9 track tapes.
But given the obvious age of your vehicle, I'm sure it can be lined up for a stand-in role in The Dukes of Hazzard 2 -- The Search for our Alienated Fans.
Re:I can help - RTFA please (Score:5, Funny)
Will you please RTFA. It clearly says 7 and 9 track tapes.
But statistically speaking, it ought to work on average.
Have you heard of Nero? (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:5, Interesting)
Frankly, I've worked for companies that paid a great deal of money to save their software assets that were stored on old, seemingly unreadable media (a shitload of Digital Research files, the recovery cost us $50k), and that data wasn't even close to the value of the Pioneer probe data. If that's what stops NASA from salvaging that data, somebody needs to be fired there...
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:5, Funny)
Somebody DOES need to be fired but not at NASA. Unfortunately, the elections are over a year away.
But how huge? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I would be shocked if NASA didn't document any of the file formats used. I've worked on a NASA project and they are all about documentation. In fact, I was writing a system used to document the shuttle booster production process.
Re:But how huge? (Score:2)
Re:But how huge? (Score:5, Interesting)
Thanks to the Internet, and one international mail list I was a member of, I found a wonderful lady at a government data center who was willing to copy the data to a modern medium. And, it was a good thing I put in my request when I did; their one remaining 9 track tape drive was being decommissioned the next month!
A quick visit to the the UPS fairy and the tape was on its way. A week later I get an email to check a particular ftp for a tar ball and there it was: 30 mbs. - 7 years of research; a mere blip on a modern jump drive......
Dad was delighted. That data is now on CD, 4 separate hard drives in 2 physical locations, and even an actual paper printout.
Re:But how huge? (Score:2, Insightful)
16 bits * 3600 secs/hr = 57600 bits or 5760 bytes (I usually divide bps by 10 to get bytes because of things like parity and other protocol overhead)
5760 bytes/hr * 24 hr = 195840 bytes/day
195840bytes/day * 365 days/year = 71481600 bytes/year
71 MB/year * 40 = 2840 MB
Still a trivial amount by today's standards but I think you need to check those flashing fingers of yours on the calculator.
Re:But how huge? (Score:4, Insightful)
(I would imagine that 16 bps is the raw data rate from the probe?)
Re:But how huge? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:3, Insightful)
and more to do with the physical quality of the tape. They
tend to basically turn to dust because they are so brittle and
require special handling if they can be used at all
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:2)
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:2)
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:5, Funny)
No. but their grad students do.
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:5, Informative)
Given the age of these tapes, getting the data off without destroying it is not as simple as just slapping it onto the machine & hitting "play."
re: tape baking (Score:4, Interesting)
That's why you'll see plenty of people having no problem playing back 20+ year old tapes, yet others have huge problems.
Re:Have you heard of Nero? (Score:3, Interesting)
2. Note that the 'society' wants to get 1/4 million not just for the data conversion, but also a fund to study the data.
Quite frankly I might donate if it were simply to convert the data and make it publicly available. Note that they won't release the data until after it has been analyzed, and give no definite timeframe (months to a year).
Not that I'm aga
Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
Let me be the first to say WTF?!!
This is inexcusable.
It's insane to throw this project out the window..
I hope people will step up to the plate on this. I for one will..
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
How much do you want to bet... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How much do you want to bet... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:How much do you want to bet... (Score:5, Interesting)
All in all, remmeber you only have to take some data and wrap it in a protocol that is expressed on a differential pair. Not that hard...
Re:How much do you want to bet... (Score:3, Interesting)
I just don't get it, here we have an agency full of engineers, and no one could think, "hey wouldn't it be cool to look at the data on a PC/Mac, a UNIX machine, or an IBM Mainframe?".
It's a shame, becuase more than likely most of the engineers involved with the original pioneer project would have been alive and
Re:How much do you want to bet... (Score:2, Informative)
A 2400 foot reel of 6250 bpi 9-track tape contains about 160 MB, given large block size. If they're the 3490 type tapes, each cartridge can hold as much as 1600MB. Block size is important because there's an inter-block gap on the tapes that is essentially wasted space, and the more blocks, the more waste.
If... (Score:4, Insightful)
That is absolutely critical, I will not donate unless I can see the data.
RTFF (Score:5, Informative)
Will the data be made publicly available?
Yes. First, the data first must be recovered, validated, documented, and preliminary analyses must be done. After those tasks are completed (probably taking months to a year), the data will be made publicly available, including second-order data products when the raw data is processed by JPL orbit software.
Re:RTFF (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:RTFF (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:RTFF (Score:5, Insightful)
In theory for far less you could simply recover the data, test that it was recovered properly, and then stick it on a webpage for anybody in the world to analyze.
Their proposal is to solve the secrets of the universe for $250k. I might suggest that maybe the goal should be to simply transfer the data for $10k, and let somebody else pay for solving the secrets of the universe. The data recovery project is also far more likely to be successful...
Re:RTFF (Score:5, Informative)
It would be foolish for a programmer to publish a program on the web without first running it a few times to catch bugs. In the same way, a scientist must check her data (even "raw" data) before just blindly putting it up on the web for all to see. If she posts faulty data then she wastes everyone's time, she looks like a fool and pisses a lot of people off. Her reputation may be ruined.
But how can she know for sure that the data was recovered properly? Checking parity bits is not nearly enough, because she needs to know for sure that she did not make any subtle mistakes and that no one in the chain of generating and producing the data made any subtle mistakes.
One necessary (but not sufficient) step is to actually analyze the data with your model(s) and see if it makes sense. If it doesn't, then you may need correct your transcription procedure and go back to the original tapes and read them again.
Transferring the data for $10K and not doing the preliminary analysis would be foolish beyond belief. I think a better cost estimate is roughly $100K for the transfer(s) and preliminary analysis needed to ensure the transfer was done properly. Since everything would already be set up to analyze the data it makes perfect sense to also get another $100K to do the "real" analysis. Since something may well go wrong, ask for another $50K so you can be reasonably sure of getting it done right in the first go round.
Re:RTFF (Score:5, Insightful)
That Planetary Society FAQ [planetary.org] does seem like... now what's the right word.... bullshit. So they came up with a suspiciously large and round number ($250K) but, as far as we've seen, no detailed budget behind it? No explanation of what happens to excess funds?
For fuck's sake, Planetary Society people, it looks disturbingly like a "don't think just donate! QUICKLY!" campaign, built around fear of NASA apparently doing something extraordinarily stupid. There are just too many holes in the story, too much that makes no sense.
I strongly suspect that they really just want to fund a few qualified people to work on the data full-time for 6-12 months. But if that's so, a little honesty would be appreciated. There's no fucking way I'd donate to support some ridiculous US salary, when I'm sure there are an enormous number of university-based people all around the world that would love to spend time analysing this kind of data and would do it for free.
And yeah, it is kind of hazy regarding what information of value they hope to extract from this data. The slashdot writeup "...or it may be as groundbreaking as a clue to completely new physics, perhaps related to dark matter or dark energy" sounds like a nutcase trying to sell something.
Rather qualified (Score:5, Insightful)
First, the data first must be recovered, validated, documented, and preliminary analyses must be done. After those tasks are completed (probably taking months to a year),
Why not publish the data immediately, and qualify and expand it as they go along?
Rich.
Re:Rather qualified (Score:4, Insightful)
The validation, documentation & preliminary analysis steps are all about taking the raw data stream and making it into a useful set of values.
Re:If... (Score:2)
And miss.... (Score:5, Funny)
"They destroyed those things so we wouldn't know what it REALLY found. I know they did! Why else would they destroy them. It must be a conspiracy!"
Free money? (Score:4, Funny)
Just as well, i was away to send a million pounds but thought "oh no! im not a member! theyll never accept my non-space-geek cash!"
Funding (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Funding TP (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Funding TP (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Funding (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Funding (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Funding (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of space exploration as far-sighted defense spending. Otherwise, think of how the world would be today if, in the 1940's and 1950's, the US did no ballistic missile research at all, and let the Soviets take LEO, Geosynchronous Orbit, the Moon, and everything else.
Every dollar invested into the space program, public education, interstate highways, power grids, even welfare and medicaid, is a dollar well-spent towards shoring up national defense. Just not in as direct a way as you'd like.
What is money POORLY invested in defense or national security, is $200 Billion to invade a country, destabilize it's govenrment so it can be taken over by Iran. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/07/21/iran
Re:Funding (Score:3, Insightful)
Why can't my tax dollars stay in my pocket so I can decide how to spend them?
Because if society worked this way, human greed would prevail and services such as paved roads, public parks, snow removal, and disaster relief would not exist.
Greed is good for some things (see capitalism), but a modern society can not succeed on greed alone, no mater what staunch libertarians would have you believe.
Going all the way to that extreme won't get you any further ahead than going all the way to the other extreme
Re:Funding (Score:3, Insightful)
Because then you'd have to make individual one-dollar payments to a couple hundred organizations that you're likely to consider worthwhile if you were to look into them, and they'd have to spend a lot of money advertizing their worthiness to you. Having a government you pay taxes to which pays departments is an O(n) process, while having individuals pay them directly is O(n^2). If you think your taxes are complicated now, just th
Why the deviance? (Score:4, Interesting)
If the difference of their expected trajectories have no commonality, it would seem to mean either some new force is affecting the craft differently, or each craft has its own mechanical explanation as to why they aren't staying the course.
Do *none* of these craft follow the expected trajectory? If not, then we really can't be sure whether this is a collection of mechanical issues or various effects of the unknown force. If one or two craft followed course perfectly, I would be inclined to say that the rest have mechanical issues knocking them off course.
Re:Why the deviance? (Score:2)
Re:Why the deviance? (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps. We don't know because Voyager, like most other spacecraft, is 3-axis stabilised. That means it keeps pointed the right way using only its thrusters. Pioneer is spin stabilised, like a rifle bullet in flight, so requires much smaller pointing corrections using thrusters. The anomaly is a very slight one, so slight that it is lost in the uncertainty caused by the level of thruster activity on 3-axis stabilised craft.
Re:Why the deviance? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why the deviance? (Score:5, Informative)
"When all known forces acting on the spacecraft are taken into consideration, a very small but unexplained force remains. It causes a constant sunwards acceleration of (8.74 ± 1.33) × 10^-10 m/s2 for both spacecraft.
"Data from the Galileo and Ulysses spacecraft are also indicative of a similar effect, although for various reasons (such as their relative proximity to the Sun) firm conclusions cannot be drawn from these sources."
9 track tapes (Score:5, Interesting)
I had a summer job a decade ago ripping 9-track tapes (geophys data) to CD-R (back when CD-Rs were $20 each and a burner was $5k!), pretty sure the people I did it for still have the gear. Planetary guys - I couldn't see a contact address on your page!
Re:9 track tapes (Score:2)
Why isn't NASA doing this itself? (Score:2)
So in short (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me sum up: the USA boldly sends a probe in space, at a very great cost to taxpayers. Some decades later, NASA is forced to scrap the only computer that can access the unique (and very expensive) data collected by said probe, because the administration refuses to fund them properly.
That's sad enough, but the saddest thing is: a bunch of passionate guys (the planetary society) are begging a measly quarter million bucks to save that priceless data, and the administration just stands there! That's like the cost of running a humvee for a week in Iraq or something. How does that look to the outside world? like a decrepit country where non-profit orgs are forced to take matters into their own hands to save their national treasures. Well done USA
Re:So in short (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, Congress allocates funding for NASA and thus is responsible for the lack of funds. You should contact your local Senate and House representatives if you wish to continue research in this area.
However, please
Re:So in short (Score:5, Insightful)
Not every data bit is equally valuable. In this case, the data was probably not originally considered very interesting so wasn't moved at the time. The fact that NASA hasn't copied the data already suggests to me that people near research didn't think that that data would be very helpful in the first place. So while I wish that they'd transfered the data long ago and I applaude the Planetary Society, I am not convinced that this is a horrible failing on NASA's part.
Lots of other data (Score:5, Interesting)
Think about it, decades of climate data , going back to the 1970's, is being lost due to lethargy on the part of Clowngress. Or is it lethargy.
Let's see, three and a half decades of climate change data, detailed and explicit. Hmmmm.... who *wouldn't* want that data placed online where researchers could access it? I wonder.....
Re:Lots of other data (Score:3, Informative)
If you are interested in a history going back to at least the 50's, with extremely good resolution, just ask the NOAA for it and they will be happy to furnish you with more informati
Why not? (Score:2, Insightful)
You need money to carry out research.
NASA obviously doesn't care much about basic sciences, and is quite busy wasting tax dollars [nasa.gov] in 'spectacular' but dumb and useless shuttle launches.
Planetary society is atleast trying to make some sense. Why not help them?
Re:Why not? (Score:3, Informative)
NASA cares plenty about basic science - and the basic science these tapes were meant to accomplish was accomplished decades ago. (In fact a great deal of both the data and the science is available on the web.) What TPS wants to do is 'extended
What about the hardware itself? (Score:3, Informative)
As for the data, a lot of people here seem to be really naive about how hard it is to recover old data like this. "Just download it onto a hard disk." Well, yeah, but the trick is getting working 9-track drives (relatively easy) and 7-track drives (much harder) and going through the effort required to ensure you get the data off successfully instead of destroying it. (Remember, these tapes are very old and probably extremely fragile, and you may only get one shot at recovering the data.)
Re:What about the hardware itself? (Score:3, Informative)
A worthy cause, but $250,000.00?? (Score:2, Interesting)
but why the hell won't NASA just donate the computer and tapes to a university? If they're going to toss it in the trash, they should be interested in giving it away for free. Put the data on the Web for all, and we're done. In fact NASA themselves should be able to do this inside of a week or two, presumably they know how to read these tapes themselves..
I don't see where anyone needs to raise $250K..??
Please explain yourselves, planetary society types..
Nah-SA (Score:2)
Frame dragging (Score:2, Interesting)
Next...
Enough about "dark" matter/energy already! (Score:2)
Secondly, it's only "dark" because we can't see it. Obviously, if it's there, but we haven't observed it yet, it's "dark matter." There is nothing inherently unique about it. We're just not omniscient.
I own a Kennedy 9-Track and a very old 7 track (Score:5, Informative)
I think this is being distorted and dramatized (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that the issue is being distorted and blown out of proportion. I have a feeling that someone wanted to further their pet cause and they didn't mind letting pesky facts get in their way.
This is typical of Govt funded thought processes. (Score:5, Informative)
"If it isn't in the requirements document, it's not going to get done, no matter how simple or beneficial it is."
I worked on a project back in the early 80's. We were launching missles on a test range. I was responsible for the telemetry recording. We used a massive Honeywell tape drive and a bunch of telemetry circuitry to record at 1MHz. After designing the circuitry to measure and feed the data (all analog, BTW) to the drives, I asked my boss where the specs were for the circuitry to read the data back off the tapes for analysis.
I was told there wasn't any. It wasn't a requirement. And I had better leave it at that. I kind of freaked- how the hell can we spend $100K in hardware and time to record tapes that can never, ever be read ?
The answer ? It was basically butt covering. If something happened they would ask the gummint to fund a project to read the data off the tapes.
I went ahead and designd and built a playback system on the side, nights and weekends. We went ahead and launched missles. We had guidance failures. I was asked to read the tapes. I pulled out my breadboarded setup, and read the tapes. The project team was happy, problems were solved, etc.
And I was put on the next layoff list for 'failing to obey orders'. So I got a better job, and quit before the axe fell (large defense contractor axes fell sloowly back then- lots of little clerk types had to spent their quality time with each piece of paper).
The Moral ? Never underestimate the stupidity of large organizations- governmental or otherwise.
Chump change (Score:2)
Perhaps I'm missing something special about this?
Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, you reading... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a problem... (Score:3, Informative)
Most types of digital storage is not good for conserving data in the long run. Hardware changes. File formats change. Most digital media have a very limited lifetime.
As an example: We have a very good record of the letters that Greek philosophers wrote to each other 2000 years ago. On the other had there's loads of important research data from the early days of computing that's already lost forever.
Some background... (Score:5, Informative)
I talked to the guy who used to run Pioneer... (Score:5, Informative)
I would have happily volunteered to spend a couple of days swapping disks in order to salvage all this lot, but alas, I'm the wrong side of the Atlantic. The guy in charge has recently been made redundant, and he was desperate to find someone to hand off all this to... but there's incredible beaurocracy. (I gather all the data was actually supposed to have been destroyed some years ago, but through some 'oversight' hadn't been.)
Alas, I don't have permission to publish his address, but I'll put him in touch with the Planetary Society on the off chance he doesn't know about this.
Interestingly, for years he ran the Pioneer spacecraft off a Mac Quadra 950! Check out the screen shots [nasa.gov]...
I got this same email this morning... (Score:4, Funny)
Old drives aren't _that_ hard to find... (Score:3, Interesting)
And, if NASA is getting rid of an archaic machine and drives - someone should save it! There are LOTS of collectors out there, lots of hardware hackers and geeks like myself that love working on old machines, and could keep the machine operational and help transfer data.
In other words, yes, there is still a way to get data read in, even if you're sure that the media is too obsolete that nobody has a working drive. Nine track tapes, Magneto Optical, 8" floppies, Bernoulli cartridges, TK50 CompacTapes, QIC cartridges, MFM hard drives, SyQuest cartridges, paper tape, punched cards... The hardware is piled up all over the place, in the basements and bedrooms of people like me. Wether it's as common as a Commodore 64 5 1/4" floppy or as exotic as an Exatron Stringy Floppy or a 1600BPI nine track tape, chances are you can find someone with the machine and willing to help you.
pioneer data all available online (Score:3, Informative)
> http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog
> http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog
>Well, well, well...it looks like every bit of Pioneer 10 and 11 has been saved already, and can be accessed thru the proper channels (on tape, but apparently they will burn a CDROM on request).
Re:Archive in different format (Score:5, Informative)
I had a letter somewhere that explained the problem in detail but I must have tossed it (I'm a member of the society, so I get the occasional mailing). They're planning to port the data to a modern format so it can be examined properly.
Re:Archive in different format (Score:3, Insightful)
What I utterly fail to understand is why NASA thinks they can get away with scrapping the only computer on the planet that can read the tapes, without spending a few days to read the tapes off first????? What kind of <oxymoron>brilliant NASA administrator<oxymoron> thought that was even remotely a good idea?
AFAICT, They are fully aware of the fact that they have data that defines priceless, and they're just going to toss it in the trash along with the computer because they got tired of trying
Re:Archive in different format (Score:4, Interesting)
At my lab in grad school we had some Voyager tapes that were only readable by one type of (obsolete) machine. We always wanted to get rid of the machine because it was taking up a ton of space and was a bitch to keep working. But getting the people reasonsible to copy the data to a new format was an uphill battle because there was no money to pay someone (even a student) to do it.
I'm not saying that this is the way things should be or that priorities have been well-set, here. But the economic reality is that it's not as simple as you think.
Re:Archive in different format (Score:3, Insightful)
The operative word here is "about".
The computer hasn't been scrapped yet, and they should take advantage of that.
Why can't they use the obsolete equipment to read all of the tapes and transfer the raw data to a more modern medium?
My totally uninformed guess is that a couple of hundred tapes should fit on a couple of DVDs, which can then be replicated as many times as neede
Re:Archive in different format (Score:3, Interesting)
An old friend of mine came into an old arcade game (defender) and the battery that kept the mainboard toasty (and the score history) had leaked acid all over it, nearly destroying it. He picked off what salvageable components were left on the board, scrounged around a number of dusty electronics stores to replace what could not be salvaged, bought a ROM programmer, made a new mainboard, slapped everything back together and the old game was restored. A few o
Re:Why dismantle the computer (Score:5, Interesting)
My guess is the operating cost. Those old machines are very VERY costly to run, between the power they need, the special rooms, and the ridiculous MTBF of the componentry that's measured in dozens of minutes.
But still, I agree. Scrapping the computer on that reason alone is forgetting the hundreds of millions spent on sending the probe out in space in the first place.
Re:Why dismantle the computer (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was a physicist we had a DEC VAX with a tape drive, it took a whole room, and probably had less power than my laptop. Tape drives are not small things.
Re:9-track? (Score:2)
Selling? First, they are making these data files freely available for download. Second, these data sets contain no cool image or anything that tickles fancy from Jane and Joe Sixpacks. So I'd expect less than 1000 copies would be sold if it were to be on the market.
And not that many engineers or scientists are qualified enough to entan
Re:GPL the Data (Score:4, Funny)