Astronomers Solve Magnetic Fields Mystery 159
An anonymous reader writes "It is a long-standing and unsolved mystery why 80% of all planetary nebulae are not spherical. Theories suggest that magnetic fields play a role in shaping planetary nebulae. A team of astronomers from Germany has now discovered the first direct clue that magnetic fields might indeed create these remarkable shapes. Planetary nebulae are expanding gas shells that are ejected by Sun-like stars at the end of their lifetimes."
What about the other 20%? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:2)
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:2)
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:3, Interesting)
As the article mentions, it turns out that the observed stars had magnetic fields many times stronger than our sun's.
Whether the 80-20 ratio is realistic remains to be seen, but in essence it would simply depend on the strength of a particular star's magnetic field.
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:5, Funny)
Why even bother to ask why? If you come across something and you can't figure out how it could have occurred, just claim the event or process is the product of Intelligent Design
Why spend year after tedious year engaging in reductionist scientific inquiry when you can just bail out immediately with an answer that cannot be falsified: Intelligent Design
Worried that your invisible sky-ghost or imaginary all-powerful personal friend isn't getting the deferential worship He deserves in this age of secular humanism? Sneak your sky-ghost back into the schools and indoctrinate another generation of devout sheep with Intelligent Design
Remember the "Argument from Personal Incredulity" [cotch.net]: if you're too thick to figure out how something works, it must be because no one can figure it out! Don't sweat it! Just explain it away by saying it was caused personally God^H^H^H an Intelligent Designer!
Don't waste time asking question or doing science! Just give credit to an Intelligent Designer and go back to sleep!
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:2)
-aiabx
Whew! This makes a refreshing change from... (Score:2)
There are many, many physical situations in which Intelligent [arn.org] Design [intelligen...etwork.org] is easily the top Ockham's [skepdic.com] Razor [wikipedia.org] candidate [blindatheist.com].
But thanks for yet another example of argument from ridicule [creationsafaris.com]. <sarcasm>We really, really needed another one of those</sarcasm>
Re:Whew! This makes a refreshing change from... (Score:2)
I believe that the entire point of Intelligent Design is to dress creationism in a white lab coat; it's been tried before. Creation Science anyone? Since ID's proponents want to call this stuff scienc
No quite (Score:2)
No, it's to saw the question "Was everything designed - by God?" in half, so that each half can be dealt with separately and sensibly.
Once you saw off the God section and park it to one side, you are free to discuss more kinds of design possibilities than would otherwise be acceptable, and also to ask the "everything is an accident" team to bisect their own question, "Did everything happen at random - because
Re:No quite (Score:2)
No, it's to saw the question "Was everything designed - by God?" in half, so that each half can be dealt with separately and sensibly.
Once you saw off the God section and park it to one side, you are free to discuss more kinds of design possibilities than would otherwise be acceptable, and also to ask the "everything is an accident" team to bisect their own question, "Did everything happen at random - because there is no God?"
This doesn't really happen. Pretty much everybody pushing ID has a political
oaths (Score:2)
Can you even conceive of a serious/mainstream scientific institute having an unchangeable statement of doctrine which must be sworn by all new hires? A medical school which asks students to swear that influenza is caused by unfortunate conjunctions of stars, and not to think of proposing any alternative?
The very idea of swearing a list of assertions of fact which cannot be altered is by definition antiscientifi
Re:No quite (Score:2)
Fair enough -- if there are not too many disconnected wires dangling out of the middle.
ID assumes that there was a mysterious unspecified entity which through mysterious and unspecified means caused a whole chain of complex events to happen over a period of time. That may or may not be true, but such a theory comes off much the worse from Occam's razor.
You can see that supernatural explanations have
Are you sure you have the sides right? (Score:2)
That sounds more like a fair explanation of evolution (either cosmological or biological). Lots of very unlikely things need to come to pass to get from cosmic detonation to an iPod or Phoebe Cates (random enough examples for you?). Saying th
Re:Are you sure you have the sides right? (Score:2)
It seems reasonable to ask ID proponents what mechanism they think *was* responsible, if it was not regular
Even steadier state (Score:2)
Sorry, forgot to address one point... (Score:2)
Just to make sure that both sides of the argument start off on the same page...
Underpinning every theory are axioms. The key axiom of materialism is that matter exists (either always, temporarily, or in a recurring fashion) in a form which allows it to randomly recombine over the course of a few billion years to produce space and hydrogen, which coalesces to produce stars an
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:3, Interesting)
The article also states that the astronomers' next step is to try to detect magnetic fields around the stars that have spherical nebulae. If they find none, I would say this pretty much clinches the conclusion, at least until some other unexplained effect is discovered.
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:3, Interesting)
Which, now that I think of it that way, begs the same question as yourself, rephrased; does frame dragging affect the shape of galaxies? Perhaps helping align galaxies with the spin plane of a massive central black hole? Hm. I am guessing that a bunch of things are helping towards the same end.
Frame dragging is also symmetric, but only in the plane of rotation; and since we
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:5, Insightful)
As it must, because we can see that gravity does and one expects, in the absence of other forces, for phenomenon such as planetary nebulae to be symetrical.
By the way, you might be interested to know that the density of material in a such a nebula may well be lower than in an earth bound, artificial vacuum chamber. They may look massive from here, but that's because we see the entire mass of the florescing gases from a distance. If we were in the middle of it it might well look like empty space.
Think of a hazy day. You're not in a fog at all and it's only when you try to look across great distances that you realize the air isn't "empty."
KFG
Re:What about the other 20%? (Score:4, Funny)
Nah, just ignorant. He's heard stuff he doesn't understand. Ignorance is curable. Stupid is in the bones.
Note that he was smart enough to phrase his post as a question asking for clarification, which, given the nature of this forum, also implies a certain amount of self worth without lapsing into egotism.
I'm the damed fool who was stupid enough to make statements. That sort of behaviour can get you garotted around these parts.
KFG
More and more (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More and more (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More and more (Score:1, Funny)
It's attitudes like this which are stopping us from being omnipotent.
Re:More and more (Score:1)
Great (Score:2, Funny)
From Family Guy: (obligated!) (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Great (Score:2, Insightful)
this about that (Score:2, Funny)
When pushed for an explanation of why the crab nebula was so different, one scientist responded with a huff and withdrew into his basement office.
In other news...
A couple in the Hamptons has asked the same group of scientists to determine why socks dissapear in the dryer. Film at eleven.
Re:this about that (Score:4, Informative)
Re:this about that (Score:1)
Thus the name 'Crab Nebula'? I see now, thanks for clearing that up.
And the The Crab pulsar? Next I guess you're going to spoil all I have left and tell me it is actally a variable star?
Very cruel...have you no shame.
Yes, Crab Nebula is a supernova remnant (Score:1, Interesting)
You sir are a typical dumb idiot, exactly the kind that is destroying the Wikipedia through not deferring to authority despite your ignorance, as per a recent Slashdot story. If you don't know something, why do you feel the need to cast doubt on those who do?
The poster was right, the Crab is a supernova remnant. "The supernova was noted on July 4, 1054 A.D. by Chinese astronomers, and was about four times brighter than Venus, or about
Re:Yes, Crab Nebula is a supernova remnant (Score:2)
It's a joke...sort of like your concern that a wiki is at risk of dieing due to the very type of activity that brought about the need for it in the first place.
I'm squashing an earthworm in my hand...want to defend it before my actions threaten the known universe? Better hurry....I see fluids.
Re:this about that (Score:2, Interesting)
Planetary nebulae and supernovae remnants would differ in their origin -- the former from red giants and the latter from supernovae (duh), the size, obviously, shape (explosion cloud vs. ejected atmosphere), and the source of radiation that illuminates the nebulae... but I'm not sure how.
Supernovae remnants would have neutron stars in th
Re:this about that (Score:2, Informative)
a white dwarf according to this page [pppl.gov]
Re:this about that (Score:2, Informative)
It is called a white dwarf at this stage, and as it has no power source (just residual heat) it eventually cools over an extremely long time to become a black dwarf.
Re:this about that (Score:1)
Re: this about that (Score:5, Funny)
> A couple in the Hamptons has asked the same group of scientists to determine why socks dissapear in the dryer.
They disappear into the electronic equivalent of a black hole, and re-appear on the internet as sock puppets.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:this about that (Score:1, Offtopic)
This is a common misconception. The socks actually get lost in the WASHER, in the tiny groove underneath the spinner (I don't know what to call it) and the bottom of the washer. You dry your clothes, and you come out with an odd number of socks. At some other time (next load of laundry perhaps), the sock becomes dislodged, and you toss it into the dryer. Again, you have an odd
Re:this about that (Score:2, Funny)
Re:this about that (Score:2)
Oh, and Horsa Hedd really was the first person to enter the Horsehead Nebula.
What about the color intensity? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What about the color intensity? (Score:5, Interesting)
That isn't to say your argument is wrong in anyway. I would agree with your hypothesis; however am not an expert in nebula dynamics in any way shape or form. I will state with great certainty that IF there are significate magnetic forces within a nebula, you WILL see higher gas densities along the magnetic lines of force -- the same idea as when you have iron filings on a sheet of paper and put a magnet under it: those filings will align with the field lines of the magnet.
This could be an interesting topic (the whole tread). I hope some good answers come out of it!
Re:What about the color intensity? (Score:2)
In the article, the pictures are just examples of planetary nebulas. They are not the actual images used in the paper. The research was done with spectroscopy, which doesn't make for a very attractive article. Spectroscopy is the bulk of what astronomers deal with anymore, and is far mo
Re:What about the color intensity? (Score:4, Informative)
Similarly, some of the perceived complexity in objects like the Ant Nebula [nasa.gov] may be due to perspective, as we see it from an angle.
And speaking of the Ant Nebula, as is mentioned in the APOD article, another likely contributing factor to nebular complexity is the presence of other bodies orbiting the new white dwarf, such as a companion star or planetary body. These objects likely manipulate the shape of the nebula via gravitational or electromagnetic forces.
Re:What about the color intensity? (Score:2)
this is nice to see (Score:2, Informative)
Re:this is nice to see (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:this is nice to see (Score:1)
Re:this is nice to see (Score:3, Informative)
Hint: Electric and magnetic fields are kind of related, try creating a current without either one of them.
Jeroen
Re:this is nice to see (Score:3, Interesting)
Considering everyone reading this article is using a computer with some form of magnetic storage, I'd say he's got a valid point.
Ferromagnetism is way too prolific in magnetic storage, so I'll ignore that and talk about other magnetic effects. Magnetism is directly tied to any inductive element in a circuit, and manifests itself through self and mutual induction. Eg
Re:this is nice to see (Score:1)
Plasma (Score:2, Insightful)
Solved? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Solved? (Score:1)
Then again, I'm probably making a false dichotomy. The detective can't be certain either. Certainty is a very rare thing, all we have is theory, belief and evidence (theory and belief being differentiated only by the
Re:Solved? (Score:1)
Re:Solved? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, actually, if you put it that way, it does make science sound something like religion ... if you ignore the "evidence" part. That's what religion invariably fails to provide. And no, someone's
Re:Solved? (Score:1)
So, that's one step forwards for mankind, and, er.... tune in again; same time, same channel for the next bit of the puzzle.
Re:Solved? (Score:2)
That depends how far it is from the other footprint.
On a similar note... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why don't they all rotate and orbit in any direction they want?
Does gravity just even this all out over time when the objects pass near each other?
Re:On a similar note... (Score:3, Informative)
It doesn't turn into a single spinning ball because as the constituents collide, they sometimes stick. The more the empty spaces between them grow, the less often they collide. (Collision rate scales as the third power of the mean fr
Orbital planes (Score:4, Interesting)
You have to consider where they got the angular momentum to begin with:
A solar system isn't a bunch of objects that happen to be in the same place. It was originally a gas cloud (perhaps a nebula), which had a little bit of rotation (from whatever source: nova, magnetic fields, or the like). The gas particles, while very dilute from our standards, still interact enough to equalize their (average) velocities. As it collapses, conservation of angular momentum makes it spin faster, until it's dense enough for objects (asteroids, planets, sun) to condense. And since they all condensed out of that same cloud, they're all approximately aligned to the same orbital plane that the original cloud had. (The same explanation applies to why the axes of rotation are also mostly aligned.)
Re:On a similar note... (Score:5, Informative)
When the whole system is still gas, something starts it spinning -- a simple thing like a star passing nearby gives objects (the gas particles) a bit of angular moment, which is thus transferred to the system as a whole over eons of time through collsions, gravity, magnetic forces, etc.
Now, if a LARGE object passed by in the XY plane, and a SMALL object passed by in the YZ plane, you will end up with a spin *mostly* in the XY plane, but the *WHOLE SYSTEM* will balance out with a single plane of spin somewhere in between.
Eventually the smaller objects become larger objects, which collide less, thus distributing the angular moment less efficiently. There may be one central body spinning in the XY plane, but a few of the large objects can have a wildly different orbital plane. But not many objects will HAVE this wildly different orbital plane, because back when the system was being formed, the angular moment transfer WAS very efficient.
Also, 'circular' orbits, like the earths or mars or Jupiters, are fairly rare on a random scale of things; and if you have a bunch of objects orbiting in different planes with highly ellipical orbits, they have a much higher chance of smacking into each other (or some larger object, like jupiter) than the same object would if it were in a more circular orbit which happened to be in a different plane than that of the central masses spin. Don't forget the time scales in question here!
Now, finally, in systems like that of the Earth and its huge moon, you get tidal interactions; while the moon will never shift in its orbit enough to be in an equatorial orbit, it *does* shift more closely to one every day, thanks to the 'gravity drag' between itself and Earth. Really what is happening is that the Earths spin is accelerated in the direction of the moons travel (really, this is slowing our spin rate down, think acceleration in the physics sense). Earth has already done this to the moon; hence the 'tidal lock' which has the moon presenting the same side to Earth at all times.
Were you to watch the Earth moon system forever, eventually what you would see is two bodies rotating about a central point, both with the axis of spin of each body being parallel to the axis of rotation about said central point (hope you can visualise that!). In reality this won't occur in any amount of time, the influence of the sun, and the fact that the moon would actually leave earths gravitation influence before alignment could occur prevent it. (The orbit of the moon gets larger as it steals earths rotational momentum).
That was fun.
Re:On a similar note... (Score:2)
Re:On a similar note... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:On a similar note... (Score:2)
It sure was. Thanks.
Re:On a similar note... (Score:3, Interesting)
Its just easier to visualize a rock passing by and stirring up motion than a super-nove 200K light-years away doing the same
Cheers,
Mod up, all of them (Score:1)
It's about angular momentum and it's a hotly debated field of study in astronomy (not much in astrophysics).
Re:Mod up, all of them (Score:1)
(She isn't, really; she does have the degree, but she doesn't practice yet -- working on a Phd in a related field.)
Re:Mod up, all of them (Score:1)
Actually there are little difference between astronomers and astrophysicists any more. But some of us call ourselves "astrophysicists" since we tend to pay more attention to physics than doing cataloguing or mere statistical analysis of some star/galaxy distribution.
But no matter. Like I said, there is little difference. We'll treat her just like as we are.
Solved? Yeah sure.... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's cool that they had done POLARIMETRIC measurement of these objects (that's far more dead than UV spectroscopy), however. Especially there is a star like Eta Carinae [umn.edu] which seems to have a weaker magnetic field and its bi-polar structure is being driven by its stellar wind alone.
And we think we know everything (Score:1)
Re:And we think we know everything (Score:2)
There are many many ways to discover that the Earth is round. If anyone thought it was flat they were either stupid or deliberately misguided (or blind or they spent their lives at the bottom of deep valleys perhaps).
Re:And we think we know everything (Score:2)
I'm gonna go to hell, ain't I?
Re:And we think we know everything (Score:2)
Mod the parent of this one up. He gets it! The Physics types are (generally, but for a few, as in no remarks about not all or exceptions please) the most arrogant and frankly ignorant types I have ever met. Many act like they have died and ascended to God status.
What we don't know about the universe would ..., fill the universe! What we know about it including what we think we know about it is pretty slim. Having been close to some of the highest phyics research and having actually been the one who la
Re:And we think we know everything (Score:2)
Nebulae and EMBRYO development (Score:2)
to my superficial observation, the nebulae look remarkably similair to giant CELLs.
has anyone ever tried comparing Nebulae to EMBRYO development?
embryonic cosmology [earthlink.net] -- just like you don't explain the movement
of a compass needle out of the surrounding totality,
can we find any connections between Nebulae
and the processes of embryology?
best regards,
j.
ah, go ahead, mod me down...
i know i'm wasting karma with such a ridiculous idea.
nobody wants to hear anything really new.
VLT Lore -- The Yellow Submarine (Score:3, Informative)
So it's not gravity then? (Score:2)
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:2)
If you mean did the Chinese have a working sundial before the western world was formed, thus getting points on the board long ago,...yes, I see a pattern.
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:2)
Not to mention gunpowder, eyeglasses, paper, and a lot of other innovations modern society would not function without. In fact, China was doing quite well in the "technologically advanced civilizations of the planet" club until a Mongol hell-bent on revenge showed up and wiped a sizable fraction of the worlds population off the map.
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:1)
The assesments of math skills in highschool students is measuring the state of the masses, not the ability of the elite.
Perhaps Taiwan panders to the needs of the many to the detriment of the uber-smart too much, but then again perhaps America goes too far in the other direction.
Also, I would be careful about claiming the compassion card for a country where welfare and social support are dirty words.
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:1)
yeah, well first of all, West != America.
Secondly, if you are trying to imply that welfare and social support are dirty words in America, umm get a grip, they aren't. The US has welfare and social support programs for the people that need them, not for the lazy.
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:1)
"West != America."
To quote the grandparent:
"Americans in particular are outstanding on the social sciences, compassion, and good citizenry"
Secondly:
"The US has welfare and social support programs for the people that need them, not for the lazy"
If everyone is such a good citizen, why would you need to check for laziness before being compassionate?
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:1)
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:1)
However, lucky for you somebody has already done the research [amazon.com] and his data suggest exactly what you conjecture. If you take all the discoveries and advances in human acheivement, and you tally them all up with the type of society that borne them. You see that the societies that produce the greatest qua
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:2, Insightful)
Correlation.
Is.
Not.
Causation.
Have a nice day...
umm... do your research. (Score:2)
Co-author with the late Richard Herrnstein of the neo-racialist book The Bell Curve, Murray returns with a mammoth solo investigation that is less likely to spur controversy than provoke a simple "so what?" The book attempts to demonstrate, through the use of basic statistical methods such as regression analysis, that Europeans have overwhelmingly dominated accomplishment in the arts and sciences since about 1400. To this end, he has assembled a laundry list of people and events from v
Re:umm... do your research. (Score:2)
Like I said, people often attack the motivations of the authors or the book in an attempt to discredit it. However this still does not change the facts. And as another poster mentioned 'correlation does not mean causation'. However, if a correlation is shown, one then produces a theory. The theory provided by murray and Co. is not liked by many people... so I say to them "What other theory would you like to produce in o
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:1)
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:2)
I have not read Mr Gould [amazon.com] and will put him on my list. However, if you had read the Bell Curve you would know that in the book Murray and Co. include a list of common attacks people would use on their book. They systematically go through and detail how even in the cases propsed their a
Re:West: +1; China: 0 (Score:2)
Really? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I figured this would happen sooner or later. (Score:1)
Re:I figured this would happen sooner or later. (Score:2)
"Dark energy" isn't related to dark matter; it's the "hooha" phrase if you want one. Mostly it's just a recognition of the fact that on the intergalactic scale, our observations of the universe do not match our theoretical models, and the reason for t
Re:I figured this would happen sooner or later. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a fairly nifty result--they're combining existing technique (Zeeman splitting measurements have been established for quite awhile as the means of measuring the field of sunspots) with some pretty serious equipment, and likely a lot of patience, to verify that the fields are strong enough to determine the shape of the plasma. Not a surprising result but a good piece of work just the same.
Re:I figured this would happen sooner or later. (Score:2)
Re:Sun like stars? (Score:2, Informative)
The Sun is not and never will be a Brown Dwarf. A Brown Dwarf is a failed star wanna-be, one that almost (but not quite)