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Technology Science

Could Windfarms And Birds Get Along After All? 63

Posted by timothy from the let's-just-use-every-part-of-the-bird dept.
going_the_2Rpi_way writes "There's an ongoing argument as to whether wind farms actually are as environmentally friendly as is generally imagined. Opponents argue that the effect these farms have on local wildlife (birds, bats, etc.) may range from disruptive to devastating. Well, it seems they've hit a nerve and ecologists are beginning addressing the issue and have begun to found some encouraging results: Birds not being killed. The debate goes on ..."
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Could Windfarms And Birds Get Along After All? More

Could Windfarms And Birds Get Along After All?

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  • It's not so much they the birds are being killed as that the turbines are freeing up bird prey for all the birds smart enough to not run into stuff. I don't think the turbines are going out of their way to kill birds.

    I can see the headlines already:

    Pigeons wiped out by wind turbines! Only less-dumb birds survive Avian Apocalypse!
    • So... if only dumb birds get taken out by the turbines...

      *sounds of brain gears slowly grinding*

      Then, we'll eventually be left with a race of super birds? Hitchcock time for us?

      "... and I, for one, welcome our new avian overlords..."

    • Actually something similar happened in Texas with armadillos. The little tanks would jump when scared, as in when a car was bearing down on them, putting them perfectly at bumper height and out of the gene pool. Now the little guys just curl up in a ball and get bounced of the road from wind draft, but are much more likely to survive the incident unharmed. Of course if someone swerves to get them with a tire.....well so much for new tactics.

  • Whackos (Score:4, Insightful)

    by my_fake_account ( 823601 ) on Saturday November 27, 2004 @04:18PM (#10933069)
    The crackpots who are trying to stop windpower because it might kill birds should concentrate on the things that actually are killing birds: cars, cats, buildings, and loss of habitat.

    • Re:Whackos (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Idarubicin ( 579475 ) on Saturday November 27, 2004 @04:55PM (#10933273) Journal
      The crackpots who are trying to stop windpower because it might kill birds should concentrate on the things that actually are killing birds: cars, cats, buildings, and loss of habitat.

      As often as not, the people protesting the construction of wind farms aren't actually concerned about the wildlife. They are often local landowners who are concerned about the effect that wind farms may have on their view, on noise, or on their property value.

      • Re:Whackos (Score:5, Informative)

        by nathanh ( 1214 ) on Saturday November 27, 2004 @06:18PM (#10933733) Homepage
        As often as not, the people protesting the construction of wind farms aren't actually concerned about the wildlife. They are often local landowners who are concerned about the effect that wind farms may have on their view, on noise, or on their property value.

        Ha. You got that one right. There was a recent story on Australian 60 Minutes (I normally never watch it, honest) about locals getting up in arms over windfarms.

        Near as I could tell, a sheep farmer permitted several turbines to be built on his land. The sheep didn't seem to mind. The farmer didn't mind. The only people who minded were:

        • A couple who were bitter that the turbines spoiled their view, that their property value was negatively affected, and that the wsh-wsh from the blades was like "Chinese Water Torture".
        • Professor Bellamy on his crusade against wind farms. He's convinced they don't work. Uhh, yes they do. They're even economical. Get the fuck out of our country you interfering pom.
        • Another farmer who was too far away to hear the turbines but was pissed off that his view will be disturbed. "This is where I work, and I don't want to look at these things all day long". Cry me a river. I stare at a brick wall all day long while listening to screeching truck brakes; I'd love to have his view while working, even with the turbines.

        None of the naysayers had realistic arguments. They were all selfish arguments. NIMBY taken to the n-th degree. Sure, I wouldn't like one in my backyard either, but I'd recognise that it's a lot better than continuing to pollute the planet with CO2.

        • Re:Whackos (Score:2, Funny)

          by jim_v2000 ( 818799 )
          Another farmer who was too far away to hear the turbines but was pissed off that his view will be disturbed Maybe they can paint the base of the turbines like tree trunks, and the blades green like leaves. Then they'd blend in with rest of the trees...you know, the rest of the ones with spinning foliage.
          • that's not a half-bad idea! They don't really take up that much of the view from a distance, but they're white for crying out loud. Paint 'em!

            Uh...yeah, you go paint 'em, I have to rush to the patent office for...uh...to apply for a...job. Yeah. Hurry up and start painting, will ya?

    • Re:Whackos (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Murphy Murph ( 833008 )

      The crackpots who are trying to stop windpower because it might kill birds should concentrate on the things that actually are killing birds: cars, cats, buildings, and loss of habitat.

      Are you suggesting that expressing concern and raising an awareness about another source of migratory bird death puts somebody in the "crackpot" category?

      More Americans die every year as a result of automobile accidents than as a result of prostate cancer. Does this mean that anyone raising awareness about prostate cance

      • "Are you suggesting that expressing concern and raising an awareness about another source of migratory bird death puts somebody in the "crackpot" category?"

        No-- I'm suggesting that in this particular case of possible migratory bird death, the instrument of that possible death is also the bringer of life in the form of improved air quality and lower surface water mercury levels. And those two things are better for all organisms, not just birds.

        So until all windows are plastered with anti-bird-collision sti
  • My understanding was that newer windmills used larger blades, which allowed them to extract the same amount of energy (or more) from the wind while turning slower. So instead of spinning very fast like propeller blades (which would kill any bird who might not be able to see it well), they spin at a speed making the individual blades easy to identify and easy for birds to avoid.

    Doesn't that solve the bird problem?

    On a side note though, doesn't having tons of large turbines change local weather patterns som

    • Re:Large Windmills (Score:3, Informative)

      by gnuman99 ( 746007 )
      My understanding was that newer windmills used larger blades, which allowed them to extract the same amount of energy (or more) from the wind while turning slower. So instead of spinning very fast like propeller blades (which would kill any bird who might not be able to see it well), they spin at a speed making the individual blades easy to identify and easy for birds to avoid.

      Angular speed is slower, but speed of the blades is probably faster.

      Also, birds see at a much higher FPS than humans so they can

      • Re:Large Windmills (Score:3, Interesting)

        by MBCook ( 132727 )
        True, but a slower moving blade (angular) would be easier to avoid than a faster moving one; I would think.

        I would agree with the birds comment, but they seem to die anyway (at least reportadly), so it must not be ENOUGH for the fast spinning windmills.

        Either that or it's just the birds that are dumb as paste, in which case we may be doing nature a favor ;)

        • About a year ago, I found a report posted on slashdot indicating that more birds die from glass than windmills. A lot more. Your birds are dumb hypothesis is accurate.

          When I hear activists against wind energy, the first thing that comes to mind is how it benefits fossil fuels. Concious of it or not, putting up roadblocks as frequently as they do only helps the incumbant energy sources. Perhaps a reasonable comprimise for these people would be a provision to encourage citizens to purchase more energy effici
          • About a year ago, I found a report posted on slashdot indicating that more birds die from glass than windmills.

            There are a lot more windows than windmills, though. A more appropriate metric would be something that takes that into account, like "bird deaths per 1000 square meters of window vs. deaths per windmill". If you're going to compare windmills to window glass, you might as well compare the number of people who choke to death on Kobe beef compared to those that choke on flank steak.

      • Re:Large Windmills (Score:4, Funny)

        by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Sunday November 28, 2004 @01:20AM (#10935644) Homepage
        Also, birds see at a much higher FPS than humans

        I had to drop a small fortune on a new high end video card, my parakeet refuses to play Quake 3 at anything less than 160 FPS.

        -
    • Although the angular speed of large windmills is low, the tip speeds are just as fast. In fact, high-efficiency windmills have very high tip speeds. The tip often travels on the order of 6 or 7 times the speed of the wind (about 150-180 mph in a 30 mph wind). If you think of a gliding airplane, the most efficient of them move more than 20 units forward for every 1 unit of distance dropped. Similarly, the blades of an efficient turbine move many units around the circle for each unit of wind that moves t
      • A modern high-performance sailplane can glide upwards of 60 feet forward for every foot it sinks (Lift/Drag >= 60), and the tip-speed ratio of a turbine isn't closely related to L/D. Heck, if you tried getting close to that ratio the tips would be supersonic at anything like good wind speeds.
    • The majority of birds getting killed are not being done so by the blades but by the wires holding the towers up. The wires are very difficult to see and extend out into the path that a bird would take to go around the windmill. This has been a problem for years in the US with power and phone lines as well as radio towers that require the support wires. The newer towers don't require wire support and in turn do not have near the problem of bird deaths. The ones out near me don't have birds littered under

  • Let's convene a conference about birds being killed by paned glass.

    Maybe the UN can get hold of the issue and negotiate a deal with glassmakers that would see them manage a fund dedicated to supporting the abandoned chicks of deceased winged parents cut-down by clear glass panes.

    Then they could siphon a little off for themselves and their immediate relatives and remain beyond the reach of the law, even as they grandstand as the judges of right and wrong in the world.

    Birds are also being killed by the avi
  • ...(and perhaps by the story, too):
    bird hazard or not, there are legitimate unresolved questions about how *massive* wind-farms might adversely affect weather.
    • Maybe we should cut down all the trees and tear down all the tall buildings, because they are blocking the wind too. There aren't any legitimate questions on the matter...logic would seem to me to say that if other tall objects don't appear to be changing the climate, why would tall wind mills affect the climate? The whole thing is just some "scientists" looking for grant money.

  • Stunt birds (Score:3, Funny)

    by Rares Marian ( 83629 ) <hshdsgdsgfdsgfdr ... g ['dki' in gap]> on Saturday November 27, 2004 @05:38PM (#10933504) Homepage
    So the less dumb birds that survive will be tempted to do dumb things like flying around a blade while the blade is moving just to impress some of the females.
  • Here in Australia one of the biggest killers of birds is the heat and drought (8 years and counting) and cats (of course). I have seen birds just fall out of the sky dead on 40c plus days. With global warming we can expect to see that even more... therefore wind farms might save the lives of the birds in an indirect way.

    It concerns me that the people who complain about wind farms might be funded by the producers of fossil fuel power. There are anti-windfarm people here in Oz and a lot of their propoga
  • Airports face the same problems with birds and geese and such flying into jet turbines and causing disruptions to planes.

    Perhaps they could use the same strategies and techniques mentioned here [bcrescue.org]

    The Southwest Florida International Airport in Fort Myers has trained a 2-year-old border collie to chase birds away from the airport

    Broadcasting bird distress calls to see if they can convince the birds to go elsewhere.

    Bringing in trained hawks to intimidate smaller birds.

    Stopping lawn mowing. If the grass aro

  • Keep in mind that the Danish study covered wind farms that were out at sea. Are the results different for land-based wind farms?

  • The problem with wind farms is not the bird. (Score:3, Informative)

    by ballpoint ( 192660 ) on Sunday November 28, 2004 @06:39AM (#10936464)
    I'm vehemently opposed to windfarms.

    My favorite spot in the extreme south of Spain, until recently spared of mass tourism, is being completely and utterly destroyed by thousands and thousands of windmills. Every formally pristine hilltop now has a 6 meter wide access road, and a row of eyesores.

    As a major passage between Europe and Africa for migrant birds they present an enormous danger to them. Each time I walk up to a mill I find carcasses of a birds nearby. Rare birds getting killed IS a major issue.

    Ecologists are caught in a trap. While they must see the birds getting killed (unless they're armchair ecologists), they like 'green energy' and are being bought off because the status of the land around the mills is converted from hunting area to nature reserve. Not that anything changes, the hunting areas were pristine, and not much hunting took place before.

    The windmills are being heavily subsidised. Owners of the land - in Spain nobility still owns nearly all uncultivated land - reap them, plus untold amounts of money for converting their useless 'hunting' lands into nature preserves.

    Once the subsidies subside, the mills will become unprofitable and will be abandoned.

    If you have the chance, go and see for yourself, or google for 'tarifa windmills' or something like this.

    http://images.google.com/images?q=tarifa%20windmil ls&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab =wi [google.com]

    • Every formally pristine hilltop now has a 6 meter wide access road, and a row of eyesores.

      The formally pristine strip of land you live on now has a 6 meter wide access road and a row of eyesores...one of which you sleep inside every night.

      Are you vehemently opposed to houses and neighborhoods?

      • Short answer: Yes, I am.

        Longer answer: My house stands where once was a decrepit farm. So while I haven't destroyed any pristine territory myself, I realize someone had to do it before so I could wash my hands in innocence.

        Long answer: over the years I find myself hating the resentless breeding of humans, and their need to fill every last bit, nook and cranny, stumping over and destroying everything in their path. And while I realize I'm part of them too, short of wishing I'd never been born at all there'
        • Why don't you set the good example for the rest of us and go get yourself sterilized.

        • do you truly believe that nature will reduce the world's population?

          the only way for humans to reduce it is to not have babies for many, many, many years. it would be far more practical to stabilize the population at what it is now and live with what we have and destroy no more. as is, the world works in cycles. there will be another ice age, probably wiping out most of the world's population. it won't happen in any of our lifetimes, but it will happen. humankind will not voluntarily stop having sex o
        • Long answer: over the years I find myself hating the resentless breeding of humans, and their need to fill every last bit, nook and cranny, stumping over and destroying everything in their path. And while I realize I'm part of them too, short of wishing I'd never been born at all there's nothing practical I can do about that now. Mind you, I enjoy living but the fact is that the world would have been a better place without me, just because overpopulation would have been, however infinitesimally, reduced.
      • Short answer: Yes, I am.

        Long answer: over the years I find myself hating the resentless breeding of humans, and their need to stuff every last bit, nook and cranny, stomping over and destroying everything in their path. And while I realize I'm part of them too, short of wishing I'd never been born at all there's nothing that I can realistically do about that now. Mind you, I enjoy living but the fact is that the world would have been a better place without me, just because overpopulation would have been, h
  • If we cover the world in wind mills we'll destroy the climate by stoping the wind across the world!
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=4161624 [npr.org]

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