EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor 441
Raunch writes "The BBC says that EU is determined to be one of the sites that host the multi-billion-dollar International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor Even if they have to do so less-than-internationally: 'If there is no agreement at six we are determined to do it with fewer.' Not only that, but 'The EU wants an agreement on the project before the end of the year'"
To preempt some things (Score:5, Informative)
Re:To preempt some things (Score:3, Funny)
Re:To preempt some things (Score:2, Informative)
Re:To preempt some things (Score:5, Informative)
That is a terrible understatement. Many many Chinese have never forgiven Japan for the terrible atrocities during the Second World War. It didnt involve westerners so most in the west have nly a few scant ideas of what went on, but to the Chinese it is never to be forgotten.
I know Chinese people who simply refuse, on spec, to ever speak to anyone of Japanese decent. Yes it really is that serious.
Jedidiah.
Re:To preempt some things (Score:4, Interesting)
I hope most chinese people aren't that racist. I had a next-door neighbour who used to berate us each year for going on holiday in france because they were "collaborators". Luckily most people aren't so idiotic.
Re:To preempt some things (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:To preempt some things (Score:2)
In fact, I've often seen comments that the US backs Japan instead of France because of France's non-support of the Iraq war.
(I don't need to dig up any real references for to back that up any further, since you didn't either ;-))
Re:To preempt some things (Score:5, Insightful)
But anything that suggests that the US is anti-science and politically vindictive automatically gets a +5 insightful.
Re:To preempt some things (Score:3, Interesting)
It is true. The new draconian security-based policy over the last few years has had a large, direct and negative impact on my colleagues in the United States, and therefore on my (Canadian) research as well. The policy may be designed to stop terror, but it is also causing serious and possibly devastating problems for legitimate foreign (i.e. other than Canada, Australia, Japan, western
Re:To preempt some things (Score:3, Informative)
See the wikipedia list with the usual caveat regarding Wikipedia.
True aircraft carriers are much longer and bigger than the other va
Re:To preempt some things (Score:2, Insightful)
only partially true (Score:3, Interesting)
If you read the articles liked to the main page, you can clearly see that after 3 years the USA came back around the table, but oposed France as an area where Iter could be build, because of France's oposition to the war.
Which is really silly and childish. The USA should grow up and respect the wishes of other countries not to support an illegal war, and not try to link an intern
Re:To preempt some things (Score:3, Informative)
From:
http://www.aip.org/fyi/2003/065.html
I quote:
"Looney said that "If the US joins ITER it would not be as a lead player." The United States is "absolutely neutral" as to where the facility would be located..."
Yay (Score:3, Funny)
big money, intl relations... (Score:5, Insightful)
- local construction companies (high end ones)
- local infrastructure (data, transport, etc)
- ongoing salaries being spent in the local villages
- pride for the news bylines containing $GLORIOUS_MOTHERLAND
I understand the US is pretty agnostic to location (realizing that the one thing all the other 5 could agree that it would absolutely not be the US)-- but with recent developments where Paris is not so much the US friend, and Tokyo is ever more loyal, I wouldn't be surprised if the US starts to put its thumb on the scales...
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:5, Interesting)
I wouldn't be surprised if the US starts to put its thumb on the scales...
They already do support the Japan site, for that reason, but because they only supply a small part of the money and because Europe has by far the most experience with fusion research, the EU is apparently willing to ignore that thumb. Of course, such a threat is mostly a bargaining tactic, it'll be much cheaper if other countries outside the EU pay for part of ITER, but whatever. The US doesn't that much say in this.
Both Japan and the EU have offered to pay a large percentage of the costs if ITER is built on their sites; I don't think there's a profit to be made, it's mostly a prestige thing.
If I were a fusion scientist going to work on ITER, I'd much prefer to live in beautiful France than in the sparsely populated bit of North Japan where ITER would be built.
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:5, Interesting)
Northern Japan is very beautiful itself. You should go for a visit, get a rail pass and head north (as surprisingly few tourists do. Plenty of nice scenery in Nikko (just north of Tokyo and inland), and Matsushima (very beatiful there) in Tohoku (the northern half on Honshuu). Still fairly touristy for either of those, but I wouldn't want to push you too far from the mainstream.
Jedidiah.
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:3, Informative)
Plenty of nice scenery in Nikko
Oh yes, and take your skis - there's some really excellent ski resorts around there.
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:5, Informative)
Hrmmm. You've probably never been to northern Japan-- it is some of the most beautiful countryside with wonderful small towns that I have ever seen-- much more attractive than France (IMHO). I can almost guess that the Japanese Govt would go off the deep end in terms of providing the coolest facilities for the scientists-- not so sure the French would do the same.
Yes, I have lived in Europe. Yes, I live in Tokyo.
Location, Location, Location (Score:3, Funny)
Yeaahhh... but that's not the point!
1. Which location will make a better video game when it all goes sour and opens a spiraling portal to Dark Aether?
2. You don't want the scientists to be distracted by the svelte natives.
3. Don't do that!
What if it blows up ?. (Score:2)
What if it blows up ? .. it is a Thermonuclear reactor ... Oh, God what have I done, I've got common sense.
But hell, I want it to be in EU for other reasons.Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:4, Insightful)
As a French myself, let me tell you something : you're utterly wrong. We like americans unless they try to bully us. And being pride and quite arrogant, we really have a big issue with Bush. Other than that, and at least until Bush and his cronies started to spit on France, we thought americans as some of our best friends.
But, hey, given the current mentality in US, I think that like too many of your compatriots, you prefer to think of you as nice, and surely the rest of the world drools with envy about your country, and so acts as assholes against you right ?
Oh, and outside of your fantasy world, we don't have an attitude towards Americans, we have an attitude towards assholes bullies, and religious maniacs. Trouble is, Bush is both. Fortunally, and unlike you, we don't make stupid generalizations and confuse your president with all americans.
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:3, Informative)
And of course you wouldn't want the little fact of the Quasi-War with France between 1797 and 1800 to cloud your imperfect understanding of Franco-American relations. And let's not even mention Degaul and post-WWII French attitudes. NATO used to be based in France, before the French pulled out of the militar
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:2)
Re:big money, intl relations... (Score:2)
Hardly - they support Japan as the site. They may not be trying to bring much pressure to bear, but they're far from location-agnostic.
Re:Way offtopic.... (Score:2)
They opposed the war for the same reason they wanted sanctions lifted: Oil contracts, loans to Saddam and whatnot.
Re:Way offtopic.... (Score:2)
Huh? That's one of the major differences between Europe and the US: we have multi-party politics here, not the two-party system where you get to pick between two shades of blue. So one of President Chirac's (I notice you appear to be ignorant of his name) opponents was Jean-Marie Le Penn (there's another name you appear to have been ignorant of) he was only one of *FIFTEEN* opponents which included the French Communist party through to Le Penn's right wing National Front.
The ignorance of Americans about th
Re:Way offtopic.... (Score:2)
In contrast, France has no lack of support of extremist political views, like Jean-Marie Le Pen (one "n", by the way.) The fact that nutty communist unions still have such a fevered grip on State policy is testament enough to France's political schizophrenia. Your "diversity" is nothing to be proud of. Should Americans be e
*Sigh* (Score:5, Insightful)
This is something so important to the people of the world, and all the politicians can think of is to fight about where it will be placed.
I just wish, for once, these people would get out of their petty mindsets and realize that the more important issue here is NOT where it's going to be, but what it is going to do.
Er, go ahead with the flaming about the evil terrorists who will destroy the reactor or take over the worlds energy sources now.
Re:*Sigh* (Score:2, Insightful)
The EU isn't stupid... (Score:5, Insightful)
Supposedly this reactor would represent the last major step required before, hopefully, fusion power stations could become a reality. The EU very naturally wants t locate it in Europe, thus giving Europe a stronger edge and focus in alternative energy research.
Interestingly the alternate site is not in the US, but rather in Japan. And that is certainly what the EU is worried about - the Japanese economy, afte a decade and more of recession is finally starting to crawl back. And the Japanese are very good at small and efficient, and are already leading the world (jointly with Korea I guess) in alternative power transport (hybrids, and hydrogen fuel cell cars).
It will be interesting to see how the fight finally plays out.
Jedidiah.
Re:The EU isn't stupid... (Score:3, Informative)
No, the reason why the EU wants to have ITER is because the world's major fusion research centre has always been in Europe. The Joint European Torus in Culham, UK is the reactor which has thus far come closest to gene
Re:The EU isn't stupid... (Score:2)
You're assuming, wrongly, that the US is in the driving seat. It isn't. The bottom line is that the US is only the world's *military* super power. In economic and diplomatic terms the EU is and this is a specific example of that being the case.
T4 (Score:2, Funny)
The USA probably tries to (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:3, Insightful)
You're assuming the current government of the United States cares more about the interests of their country, than about their very own private interests.
The very last thing an administration packed with oil executives wants, is their country's dependance on oil to vanish.
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:2)
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:4, Insightful)
The US would *love* to get rid of the oil dependency
No, the GP is pretty much right: the US just want the whole "oil situation" to stay the way it is right now.
Right now, US economy is pretty much sustained by the fact that, if you want oil, you must purchase it in dollars - thus you are buying a small part of the left-pondist's debt each time.
So, the world dependency on oil is, actually, an advantage for the US.
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:3, Insightful)
And this is why Britain was not kicked out of the EU years ago. Out of those oil-buying dollars, more of them were bought with Euros and Pounds than started off as dollars in the first place. If Britain were to ditch the Pound and join the Single European Currency, then it would suddenly make more sense for oil producing nations to start selling by the Euro rather than the dollar. As long
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:3, Informative)
It is true that oil is denominated in dollars
But it is also true that dollars are denominated in Euros and vice versa.
If I wanted to trade oil in euros here is how I would do it.
I would buy a oil futures contract to take delivery of 1,000 barrels on someday in december (it's on the nymex website I think it is 16th but I could be wrong.)
Then when that comes I pony up dollars and take delivery of my oil. But I don't want to pay in dollars I want to
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:3, Insightful)
(1) http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/pro duct/enduse/imports/c0000.html
(2) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ us.html
You might want to read this too...
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:2)
That's more than thirty years in the future, and therefore total bullshit. A scientist is lucky if he can predict advances in his field for the next three years. To say "fusion by 2036" is just to make a wild guess.
Re:The USA probably tries to (Score:3, Insightful)
Bush was like "Har har har! Those puny enviro-freaks in Europe are looking remove the world's dependence on lovely polluting oil! Har har har! Do not worry Cheney, we will stop those enviro-freaks from giving everyone including us power to run our economy."
Joining with Bush's evil laughter, Cheney said, "Har har har! They can not stop us! Only Captain Planet could save them now!"
And at that moment
A bunch of cowboys (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A bunch of cowboys (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A bunch of cowboys (Score:2)
EU != France (Score:5, Insightful)
EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor
No. I should read 'France Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor'. France and Japan have been battling over the reactor since the project was announced. It looks like the consortium will splinter. That is not a bad thing. It might inject some real high stakes competition into nuclear fusion reaseach.
Re:EU != France (Score:2)
Re:EU != France (Score:2)
Go, EU! Stuff like this makes me feel more European than Portuguese...
ITER is cool, let's quit wrangling and build (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't be greedy my Blair (Score:3, Insightful)
The outsourcing of work to other countries is also keeping our inflation low, cheep imports=low inflation, we hardly produce any food in this country.
So don't be greedy, let a heavily polluting country like China or a country with next to no resources like Japan have the pride in have a fusion research faculty.
Re:Don't be greedy my Blair (Score:2, Insightful)
Name? (Score:2, Funny)
Electric Bill (Score:2, Funny)
Iter (Score:2, Interesting)
1 month = 1 reactor (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:1 month = 1 reactor (Score:2)
IMO the EU would be better advided to keep this to themselves than share it with the US. Fusion power will be a major strategic advantage in a world where Bush is antagonizing all the major oil providers... The US may be a military superpower, but the EU can easily counter that with e
Re:1 month = 1 reactor (Score:2)
Re:1 month = 1 reactor (Score:5, Funny)
Ahem! President Bush announced the war was over a long time ago. What you meant to say was "With the cost of the Iraq peace draining at about $1.5B per week...".
What would be the problem.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Or maybe I'm just hoping for some rational, reasonable thinking and not politics.... Hmmm... That'll be the day....
Let's hope they're better at building it... (Score:2)
...than they are at building their website [iter.org]. That home page is truly awful, with very little real text and everything done with images. If you want to visit with Lynx, or if you're a search engine, bad luck.
I don't get it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Uhhmm, think for a second, ok? What fusion -> cheap energy -> cheap way of making H2 from H2O. Then you put H2 into a fuel cell and you get electricity for your car. H2 is just a replacement for "regular" batteries.
Secondly, a lot of
"less-than-international" (Score:2)
Its about time (Score:2, Insightful)
The first post is completely wrong about it being a "threat" to China or anyone else. China *wants* the reactor to be built in the EU instead of Japan. So does the other ITER member, Russia. If the US hadn't opposed the french location and induced Japan to resist it more strongly despite the odds, the project would have went ahead some time ago.
Unlike nuclear fission power, fusion power has enough fuel
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2, Informative)
You say that as a joke, but for the most part, it's true. There is very little turmoil within the limits of the EU at the moment.
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2)
Which is a great testament to the EU which has its foundations in France's desire to peacefully bind Germany to itself as closely as possible in order to stop yet another invasion. 3 invasions within less than a hundred years would seem to have been a bit of an incentive. (Franco-Prussian, WW1 and WW2 for the historically less-abled).
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:3, Informative)
Neutron bombardment? (Score:5, Informative)
Now, granted, the tokamak can be stored unused for a hundred years or so and then recommissioned (it is a hell of a lot better than the thousand-years half-lives of fission wasteproducts), but it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.
-molo
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2, Informative)
This is a fusion reactor, not a fission reactor. When things go wrong in a fission reactor there is the possibility of a meltdown, etc. This possibility does not exist in a fusion reactor. If something goes wrong, the reaction stops and in a worst case scenario, there's a fire. Nothing worse than your average coal plant, except for the fact that it's not emitting tonnes of carbon dioxide.
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2)
Back on topic, it'd strike me as odd to put our last resort for our energy future in a country renowned for its earthquakes.
What if it got destroyed before it could be fully tested? It would be a disaster of epic proportions.
This said, it is a shame the US dropped the ball on this crucial issue. The way I see it, ITER will be done by the EU, Russia and China alone. If no agreement can be reache
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2)
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:2, Interesting)
I understand it's a hard concept to grasp for people living in areas that are never struck by earthquakes, so let me explain. Little quakes are a mere nuissance. There's hardly ANY structural damage. Also, even within Japan, there are areas that are never affected by earthquakes.
RTFA! (Score:2)
Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you have any idea how many fisson reactors Japan operates?
Re:The french want it, let them have it (Score:2, Insightful)
I can only think of one country that actually dislikes the French at the moment and that's the US.
Re:The french want it, let them have it (Score:2)
And you think that's less dangerous than having terrorists out to get you?
Re:The french want it, let them have it (Score:2)
Re:The french want it, let them have it (Score:2)
Re:The french want it, let them have it (Score:2)
You do know they are only banned in state schools, right? And only girls wear them? Just how much damage do you think these French Muslim schoolgirls are going to do?
Re:French Imperialist Bullies Disliked worldwide (Score:2)
Re:French Imperialist Bullies Disliked worldwide (Score:4, Informative)
As for principles and opposition to the war: The war had nothing to do with principles in the first place. Get over it. You might also have to accept the idea that just because someone is your ally in important matters doesn't mean they have to ask "How high?" every time you say "Jump".
Re:French Imperialist Bullies Disliked worldwide (Score:4, Interesting)
Um.. have you been following the news lately? As we speak (or read), there are anti-french riots in the Ivory Coast because France is still acting like an Imperial power in Africa. The French are actually engaged in a shooting war with Ivory Coast nationalists who want the French to stop interfering in their country's internal affairs. Throughout its "former" colonies in Africa, France does not hesitate to intervene and play kingmaker.
Wrong ; we're there on the behalf of the UN. With a mandate. We've been brutally attacked, and we shot back and made sure Ivory army had no more helicopetrs to do that again. Full stop.
How about Corsica and the resistance to French colonialism there? The Corsican resistance periodically explodes bombs to try to drive the French out.
Trouble is the so-called corsican nationalists top at 9% in the democratic elections. I understand you're suggesting to let that fanatical minority have control over the 91% who feel they're as French as I am ? Or perhaps we should send the army down there to settle democracy the US way ? Same apply in New Caledonia btw. And to finish the picture, you should know there's no poll made public recently as to know wether mainland french wish to keep Corsica. For what I hear, I'm damn sure that most of us are ready to dump Corsica and give money to anybody willing to get them. But that would really be injust to the majority of perfectly normal citizens who happen to have a bunch of murderers for neighbours in their island.
France's opposition to the US war in Iraq had *nothing* to do with priciple and everything to do with * French national interests in Saddam's Oil industry - The French were willing to let a brutal dictator continue to make mass graves as long as the oil contracts flowed to french companies - blood for oil ;
USA got more than half the total money flow made through this program. Go wash your hands.
You know, HighOrbit, we've got a saying down there : "the day when idiots will fly, there will be an endless night". Hopefully, you're showing that they'll actually fly much to high to hide the sun.
Call me flamebait.
Re:France Has Access To Cheaper Power (Score:2)
Re:Hey eurofag (Score:3, Funny)
Hey, mod this up! +10 insightful! Never seen a more witty or erudite reply in all my years on Slashdot!
Re:haha you stupid american pig-dogs (Score:2, Funny)
Re:haha you stupid american pig-dogs (Score:2)
Re:EU unilateralism hurts world cooperation (Score:2)
I suggest here [bbc.co.uk].
Re:EU unilateralism hurts world cooperation (Score:2)
1) Europe will finance the Japanese project, even if we *also* build our own.
2) We don't kill innocents.
Re:EU unilateralism hurts world cooperation (Score:3, Insightful)
You do know what the EU is don't you? It's (roughly) 30, sovereign, nations that all agree to co-operate. When it comes to co-operation I think Europe can teach the US an awful lot.
Re:Some 'Proof' (Score:3, Informative)
Oh and in between cracking the secrets to the stockmarkets and proving wrong all the eminent scientists who believe fusion power can work, he also solved the problem of the Grand Unified Theory of Physics, according to his website.
This is not
Re:Some useful links for fusion discussion. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:open source? (Score:2)
Re:open source? (Score:2)
Hydrogen isn't there yet, but biodiesel and veggie are. And it's closed carbon cycle.
Ob. Futurama Quote (Score:2)
Re:US Neutral? (Score:2)
Re:France paying off Japan with Sadams money? (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/08/olympic.bribes.03/ [cnn.com]
Big international business is corrupt. Who would've guessed?