NIST Unveils Chip-scale Atomic Clock 172
grumling writes "The heart of a minuscule atomic clock, believed to be 100 times smaller than any other atomic clock has been demonstrated by scientists at the Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), opening the door to atomically precise timekeeping in portable, battery-powered devices for secure wireless communications, more precise navigation and other applications. "
timing is extremely important (Score:4, Funny)
Re:timing is extremely important (Score:4, Funny)
Re:timing is extremely important (Score:2)
First TSOP!!
Useful (Score:3, Funny)
Video games!
Not only video games (Score:4, Funny)
Not only video games. I don't know when, I don't know how, but I am sure that eventually one day someone will somehow use is for pornography...
Re:Useful (Score:2)
>Video games!
No fair! I was pinging 400
Yeah... (Score:5, Funny)
Best chance ever to get your story posted (Score:2, Funny)
And that doesn't mean that I don't find this atomic clock thingie absolutely fascinating ...
[Looking at strange spot on the wall]
What was I talking about?
OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:2)
My MythTV [mythtv.org] box has a rather old clock that drifts a lot. This could create problems with program scheduling, so I've set up a cron job to run rdate every couple of hours, and keep the clock synchronized with one of the NIST NTP servers.
If you're on a Windows box, I'm sure that a similar automated functionality can be set up.
Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:2)
Windows has this built in (Score:2)
Re:Windows has this built in (Score:2)
Of course, having done that, users still go to the system clock properties to check a date instead of the nice calendar Outlook provides.
They occasionally lock themselves out when they click on a new date and set themselves orders of magnitude outside Kerberos's 5-minute window.
Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:2)
Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... (Score:2)
NTP (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:NTP (Score:3, Interesting)
Even the "el cheapo" crystal oscillators are guaranteed accurate to better than 1 cycle per 100,000.
PC clocks drift by more than 1 second a day because of poor software, not poor hardware
-- less is better.
Re:NTP (Score:2)
Re:NTP (Score:2)
Did you check that by running the software, or by measuring the hardware?
-- less is better.
Re:NTP (Score:2)
You, sir, have the funniest sig I've seen in a long time!
BAD advice. Do NOT do this. (Score:4, Informative)
It is a wrong use of ntpdate as well. Its point is to set the time to the correct one at startup, since ntpd only makes gradual corrections and won't make time go backwards for example to avoid breaking things.
So, configure ntpdate to run once at boot, then start ntpd to keep it in sync.
Not everybody has permanent connection! (Score:2)
> to set the time to the correct one at startup
This is only true if you have a permanent network connection. Most of us dial out only a couple of times a day, with no connectivity the rest of the time, so running ntpd is utterly pointless. Broadband arrogance rides again!
Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! (Score:2)
Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! (Score:5, Informative)
Just run ntpdate when you connect instead of on boot. And kill ntpd before disconnecting. You can do this easily on Linux. On Windows I heard some programs exist to do this as well.
This is not about broadband arrogance anyway. ntpd uses much fewer server resources than ntpdate every second. In fact, many public ntp server administrators often complain about that every hour at
There are many NTP servers that are free to access out there. Please keep them that way by observing a simple netiquette.
Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! (Score:3, Informative)
Read about DNS round robin sharing of voluntary ntp servers:
http://www.pool.ntp.org [ntp.org]
MM
--
Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! (Score:3, Insightful)
At last... (Score:4, Informative)
...Netgear can start manufacturing routers that don't totally fuck [theinquirer.net] the NTP server at University of Wisconsin, Madison.
They always could - they just didn't. (Score:2)
Extra hardware tools can't fix that, I'm afraid. There was one hardware tool that would have _helped_, which would have been flash memory for storing the firmware, so that the attacking routers could have been upgraded. But when you're trying to design a device for $50 retail, you don't have much headroom for buying more flash or atomic clocks or whatever. DNS would have been a much mo
Those routers have flash memory (Score:2)
Re:At last... (Score:2)
'all routers must run ntp and any machine requesting time services should communicate with it's nearest routers'.
Re:At last... (Score:2)
Re:At last... (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately, without a way to force an upgrade, the NTP flooding may continue for years. The real lesson here, which in this day and age should be second nature, is that HARDCODING is BAD!!
Especially, hardcoding ONE source that will be used by hundreds of thousands of clients.
The engineer(s
Re:At last... (Score:2)
India: Where discrimination against Dalits has been acceptable for 3000 years
Indeed. I deplore all forms of racism, including that against Indians and by Indians. Neither excuses the other.
Great for GPS (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
-Electrawn
Re:Great for GPS (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:4, Informative)
In fact, the entire history of accurate time can be attributed to naval navigation.
Re:Great for GPS... and other things (Score:2, Interesting)
Back in the seventies, our boss showed a video about him sailing across the Atlantic on a small sailboat. There was a shot in the cabin showing his digital watch (a new thing then) swinging back and forth. He pointed that out and said, "That's our chronometer." So at that point you could have the equivalent of a ship's chronometer (worth thousands) for less than a hundred b
Re:Great for GPS (Score:5, Insightful)
Whilst the device will keep track of time with an accuracy of 1 second in 300 years, what it can't do is keep time without power.
The effect means a video recorder still shows 00:00, just a lot more accurately than before.
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
Not always. Remember, not all aplications involving time need to know the actual time with respect to the world. In fact, where this development will come in really handy will be ones where only the CHANGE IN (delta) time will be relevant.
The first that comes to mind is GPS. With an atomic clock onboard, GPS systems will be able to drastically decrease the range of error and, as the grandparent stated, require one less satallite, for functionality.
-Grym
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:3, Interesting)
Say what? GPS satellites have always had atomic clocks but receivers have had to rely on quartz.
Multiple signals are always needed by GPS for positioning regardless of timing accuracy. It's called triangulation. The more signals you have the better the accuracy due to timing differentials. Most GPS receivers use
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
But if you had 100% accurate time, locally, you could get perfectly accurate location reading, using the signal from just 2 satellites.
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
No, the problem with using just two signals is not accuracy. With only two signals, the problem is that you could be in one of two places. If you were to draw two intersecting circles, they connect at two points. You need another intersecting circle to truly place your location.
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
Re:Great for GPS (Score:2)
Is the difference in time-rates between sealevel and orbit (due to gravity well position) enough to cause problems with this, or not? For the current system, all of the GPSes are at about the same depth in the well.
Re:Great for GPS (Score:4, Interesting)
First - if you have only two satellites in the present system, the solution to the distance equation is approximately a hyperbola (it would be exactly one for a flat earth). Three satellites gives you three hyperbolas, which intersect at one point. (Remember, a hyberbola is the set of points where the difference between the distance from the point to two foci is a constant.)
However, you don't have to use difference in time to implement a GPS-like system. A more direct solution is measuring absolute time to arrival for each satellite signal. This requires an atomic clock in the receiver - which is why they don't generally do it this way. If you measure absolute time to arrival you get a sphere around each satellite you receive signal from. With two satellites the intersection is a circle, but only two points of that circle lie on the surface of the earth. If you have even a remote idea of where you are (within 1000 miles or so), you should be able to figure out which one you're at. since the two points might literally be separated by more than 1000-2000 miles.
So, the two satellite system might have some use - especially if the software is smart and keeps track of state. For instance, if you are a bomb decending to a target you would use as many satellites as you can - probably 3-4 most of the time. However, if you lost all but 2 as you got close to the ground and some jamming, you can probably bet that you didn't change position much, and so you can pick the closest solution and still have some useful guidance data. So, an atomic clock would be useful for more accurate GPS...
The untapped potential for customer products... (Score:4, Funny)
This had to come (Score:4, Insightful)
But it's only natural that this becomes smaller. Give the rich part of the world ten years, and we're all spending our time wearing atomic _and_ digital watches.
Interestingly, this could affect our lifestyle. The more synchronized timepieces become, doing stuff in sync and on time gets more feasible. But that also lowers the acceptance for being late and inaccurate. And I know that I always come a few minutes late to every appointment.
Will people start yelling at me for coming only seconds late? Will the unspoken five-minute courtesy time ("the meeting starts at 2pm" really means "2:05pm") disappear? Will I become more stressful because of all this accuracy?
So, while this seems to be a step forward for mankind, it does not necessarily create more happiness. Just like an entire host of new inventions.
What bothers me with this is that it is not really useful in a wristwatch (Yes I know - they aren't making it for wristwatches yet - but just wait!). But because everyone else has one, I'll be forced to get one as well. Just like the cellular phone. And then it starts affecting my life. Scary.
And in other news... (Score:2)
...doom! Doom! DOOM! DOOM!
Re:This had to come (Score:2, Informative)
Re:This had to come (Score:1)
Re:This had to come (Score:1)
I'd vote that this won't change things much. After all, watches (& cell phones) that receive a time signal by radio already exist, and even if they only sync to the signal once per 24 hours, existing quartz clocks lose several orders of magnitude less than one second per day.
Re:This had to come (Score:2)
Re:This had to come (Score:2, Informative)
One Cesium atom? Radiation?
A Cesium clock operates by exposing the Cesium-133 isotope to microwaves and measuring the frequency of the emitted spectral line. If you were measuring atomic decay and using one atom you'd get one decay. Then it'd most likely no longer be Cesium.
Re:This had to come (Score:2)
Just because it's not very energetic, doesn't make it not EM radiation.
Re:This had to come (Score:2)
Re:This had to come (Score:2, Interesting)
The hard part isn't necessarily keeping an eye on the atom, it's all the math needed to approximate what atomic time should be.
Over the years since the adoption of the atomic second, all sorts of adjustments and clarifications were made to the definition, that include (among others) accounting for blackbody radiation (it's "supposed" to be at 0 K), special relativity (they're "supposed" to be
Re:This had to come (Score:2)
No. The cause of these, is not an issue of clocks loosing/gaining time. I mean, quartz clocks are only off a second every year, or so, so 5 minutes would mean people haven't re-set the time on their clocks in 300 years.
In fact, the flexibility in timing is more because of the inaccuracies in how we set the time on our clocks and watches.
Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why carry an atomic clock, when you can talk to an even more accurate atomic clock, through the air? Although I guess the few ms of lag between the request and response might introduce too much error for some applications?
Re:Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? (Score:3, Interesting)
GPS receivers are required to synchronize very closely to the atomic clocks in the GPS sattelites in order to calculate position... they have to measure how far RF signals (travelling at the speed of light) have gone. GPS receivers (and the article's atomic clock) are mo
Re:Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? (Score:3, Interesting)
Less phase noise, which improves overall system performance.
A more accurate timing reference would make it easier for spread-spectrum systems to acquire and maintain lock on received signals.
Re:Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? (Score:2)
GPS is computationally intensive, whereas a quartz oscillator draws minute amounts of current. A chip-size atomic clock will be an extra option in the size/weight/power/accuracy tradeoff game. An internal clock will be the only choice where the system is placed in a shielded environment such as in a radiation lab or deep underground.
Although the DARPA Grand Challenge s
Re:Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? (Score:2)
The RDS system for FM radio also supports a time signal, but not all stations use it, and up till now I have only seen one radio that's able to show the time from that signal.
GPS receivers synchronize with the GPS satellites, out of necessity.
I would have like the designer
Could this be the end of NTP? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Could this be the end of NTP? (Score:2)
Re:Could this be the end of NTP? (Score:2)
when trying to track down a problem on multiple busy server, 1 second is at least twice (most likely more) as much data as you would need
a 1 second delay in synchronisation between your web application and a TV show is a LONG time (it's for interactive tv. we have to synchronise with the ads, the questions asked in the show, pauses, etc..)
of course the biggest problem is when dealing with multi networks problems. i don't
Re:Could this be the end of NTP? (Score:2)
Not likely. First of all, this is thousands of times less accurate than a full-sized atomic clock, so your clock will drift out of sync gradually.
Even with full-sized atomic clocks, you rarely depend on any one of them to be 100% accurate, rather, they check between a pool of them, just in case one is slightly off, so it's not hard to imagine that maybe your atomic clock could loose a sec
So now my cell phone will be able to tell time? (Score:1, Interesting)
GPS Devices (Score:2, Interesting)
GPS works like this:
every GPS satellite has an atomic clock, your GPS reciver calculates all the difforences in time and position of the GPS satellites, and based on knowing the distance from each satellite, is able to calculate where you are. Currently, GPS recievers have Quartz clocks that are constantly kept snycrenized by the attomic clocks in the satellites.
now quartz clock accuracy is nowhere near attomic clock accuracy, so this will make
Ionospheric Delay (Score:2)
Re:Ionospheric Delay (Score:2)
Another interesting home networking gadget (Score:3, Interesting)
Or put it on a pci card, I can just put it in my router box.
Re:Another interesting home networking gadget (Score:2)
Checklist (Score:5, Funny)
Unlimited web surfing option on cell plan: $10/month
Cell phone with atomic clock and web surfing (future): $200
The ability to snipe someone on eBay for that powder blue Elvis jumpsuit: priceless
Great for Cruise Missles (Score:2)
"pinpoint accuracy"
Now everyone can have one in their back yard.
Gravity (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe now... (Score:2)
Portable Interferometers, light field recorders? (Score:4, Insightful)
It also puts military-level technology again into public hands, this seems pretty dangerous - high school kids's satellites could enable terrorist missile navigation.. oh well I guess this is inevitable.
Perhaps someone experienced could provide some input into the kinds of things this would make possible?
I'm wondering if it would enable:
- distributed seti, heck distributed lots of things.. monitoring of airspace anyone?
- precise geolocation similarly for vlba? If you can shoot the sun and have a compass, should be able to solve for own location?
- distributed measurement of environment for atmospheric simulations i.e. on ships at sea to gather wind vectors?
- high-efficiency use of wireless spectrum, maybe also data transmission in noisy environments?
from the faq, "atoms are also excellent sensors". Would this enable:
- teraherz scanners (well maybe it isn't that fast, only 9 GHz) and doppler analyzers
- portable detectors of acceleration, gravity, relativistic effects, sonar,
- also one manufacturer I remember had a very interesting application of very short radio pulses that could be used to make virtual barriers I think the military was interested in it.. Until there page was taken down..
Also I'm intrigued by the latest computer graphics research into structured light and recording of light fields with distributed cameras. It would seem that an audience with a lot of handycams and these chips could be producing an extremely interesting record of say a sporting event. A camera with a few of these chips might be quite useful.
What kind of things would be possible with off the shelf hardware and a couple of these chips?
Would these enable casual interferometry in day or night?
On the downside I saw a $10 spam sandwich by Dean and Deluca in their Shibuya Station (Tokyo) store yesterday. So some people can already make enough trouble without advanced technology perhaps. Still, the ultimate geek toy? (not the spam.. the clock)
My own nuclear powered watch! (Score:3, Funny)
Him: No babe; it's not just cool. It is a nuclear powered watch; the most powerful watch in the business!
Her: Uhh... So you're a mutant?
No resonant cavity? (Score:3, Informative)
All the [published] papers are here in PDF form.
The one thing I can't figure out is how they make a resonant cavity this small
Others have been asking what's the use as one of their papers says:
If you know the time precisely you can lock up to the long frame encoded GPS signal without needing CA (more vulnerable to jamming).
Battery operated? Not likely. (Score:4, Insightful)
For reference, real time clock chips that are used in portable electronic devices today pull about 3 microwatts of current -- almost 10,000 times less than this device.
After the Little War we'll all have one... (Score:2, Funny)
other applications (Score:2)
Maybe like pure timing-based protocols [scphillips.com] for communicating over the net?
Depending on the variability in routing causing different timing delays, I would imagine you could get a fair bit of information across two points without communicating anything that doesn't look like attempted gibberish over IP.
Re:Uses... (Score:1)
Here you go! [leapsecond.com]
*true* atomic wrist watches are available now (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! (Score:5, Funny)
Wouldn't it radioactivate you or something???
Cesium is a stable isotope and is not radioactive. The only problem I see with a wrist watch containing Cesium is accidentally jumping in the pool with it or being caught in the rain.
"hey man... watch my tripple sommersault dive"
BOOM.
Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! (Score:5, Funny)
No. It would make a perfectly normal, everyday exothermic chemical reaction.
Cesium FAQ [rochester.edu]
Shoudn't it be illegal to wear???!!!
If atoms are outlawed only outlaws will have atoms.
KFG
Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! (Score:2)
Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! (Score:2)
As any one who's had some high-school physics (or noticed the chunk of caesium floating in a jar filled with oil and figured out its nefarious uses) caesium "is highly explosive in cold water" as the wikipedia article notes in red letters.
You might not have noticed that.
Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! (Score:2, Funny)
Note to self: Get larger bathtub.
Note to self: For process to do above, see above.
Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Atomic clock? (Score:5, Informative)
Most of the time that is true but in this case, an atomic clock has a very precise meaning in scientific instruments. It is a clock that counts the vibrations of atoms to determine time intervals. Accoring to SI units a second is
Up until now atomic clocks like the ones used by NIST were large pieces of equipment. They were highly accurate but not very portable. Before, merchanical watches would lose seconds a day. With the use of quartz in electronic watches that dropped to about a second every 2 months. This lowers that bar even further. I'm not sure for what that level of precision could be used.
Re:Atomic clock? (Score:2)
At 75 mA, it's still going to draw too much power to be useful in a wrist watch. I'm going to have to settle for my WWVB-synchronized Casio for now.
While wristwatches aren't a big concern, you've got to remember that these things can't keep time if they're not powered. You could have a system clock on an isolated computer that actually keeps time accurately, but it's going to need a