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Science

The Unknown Newton 277

An anonymous reader writes "The unknown Newton -- The genius who gave us three laws of motion wrote even more about the Apocalypse and the Whore of Babylon. Eventually, all of his work -- about 10 million words -- will be on the Web. Quote from the article: 'Yet if we go by sheer word count, physics was only one of Newton's intellectual priorities. He devoted more time to what we would now regard as non-scientific topics such as theology and alchemy, writing treatise after treatise on early church history and biblical prophecy.' An interesting note on Pythagoras and religion too. Should we consider ourselves 'Natural Philosphers' instead of Scientists?" Neal Stephenson fans may find this article a nice adjunct to Quicksilver.
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The Unknown Newton

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:19PM (#9915695)
    Fig, Strawberry, Raspberry and Apple... am I missing one?
  • Why? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Tweakmeister ( 638831 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:20PM (#9915710) Homepage
    Every person has their own thoughts on various topics. I wonder if it would "cheapen" our view of Newton by releasing these documents, or would we just discount them due to their age?
    • I should've added an example in my post... ...actors being spokespersons for politicians ;)
    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Blastrogath ( 579992 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:24PM (#9915742)
      How does it "cheapen" a man to have more than one interest? It does not lessen his scientific achievements that he did not singly devote his life to them.
      • A valid argument. I was looking at it purely from the sense that we view Newton as a scientist only. Surely people can have many talents and have knowledge of many fields.
        • by ArcticCelt ( 660351 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @12:26AM (#9917894)
          When you are a pioneer in science and discovery you need to go on roads that sound crazy and that maybe will get you nowhere. What was crazier to think at that time:

          That it was possible to change lead into gold?

          Or that in 300 years from then a bunch of strange libertarians will be discussing about the nature and validity of is work by using emitting light boxes connected by cables going thousands of kilometers around the globe and some time passing information through thin air?
          • What's "crazier" than claming that there are particles that contain no mass, or objects that come into existence only after someone looks at them.

            The references to alchemy need to be understood in terms of the knowlege of the inner-self. Newton, Pythagoras, etc. were not interested in describing such "matters" to those without "eyes to see."
      • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Ohreally_factor ( 593551 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:34PM (#9915806) Journal
        Some people are so desperate for heroes, scientific or otherwise, that they want to gloss over the rough spots. Given Newton's times, alchemy and astrology were not that far out of the mainstream and indeed had their part in the development of the sciences as the world moved out of the Medieval Period.

        Research into a field that didn't prove fruitful, indeed into what we consider a sham today, doesn't in any way dim Newton's other achievements. It's a mistake to judge by our knowledge today, that was built on Newton's original work.
        • Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)

          Given Newton's times, alchemy and astrology were not that far out of the mainstream and indeed had their part in the development of the sciences as the world moved out of the Medieval Period.

          Heck before Newton's time, there arguably wasn't even Physics or Science! He discovered the laws of motion, helped discover Calculus, proved Kepler's laws of planetary motion, discovered the light spectrum, and helped to found the Scientific Method.

          Rather than saying he studied Alchemy and Astrology as a pursuit,

          • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

            by nine-times ( 778537 ) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Monday August 09, 2004 @02:30PM (#9922799) Homepage
            Heck before Newton's time, there arguably wasn't even Physics or Science! He discovered the laws of motion, helped discover Calculus, proved Kepler's laws of planetary motion, discovered the light spectrum, and helped to found the Scientific Method.

            I'm not sure why you would hold such ideas. I'm not sure even where to begin, because you seem so utterly off-base that I can't formulate how a person would come to say such a thing. Maybe if you explained what you mean by "there arguably wasn't even Physics or Science!" Clearly there was... so I don't know what to say.

            As for this: He discovered the laws of motion... Well, he formulated laws of motion that allowed for him to build a physical model of the world we see. I'm not sure "discovered" is the right word. See, many physicists have started with postulates of some kind that allow them to build an accurate model of the universe, but "discovery" implies a sort of independant existence that's very hard to talk about. Often, these amount to "good" or "useful" ways of thinking about things, but "true", independant of human study, is tricky to define, let alone establish. Newton, himself, is very careful about any assertion that the laws of motion, or the model he creates, are "real".

            ...helped discover Calculus...- Again, I would say something more like "formulate". He is historically given credit for coming up with a certain means of calculation, but that activity is tricky. Was calculous there already waiting to be found? Or is it a human-devised trick to complete calculations that arithematic and algebra would have trouble completing. In fact, it's quite a philosophic quandary to establish math in general (as to it's possible independance from human thought, I mean).

            ...proved Kepler's laws of planetary motion...- again, sorry, I would question your word choice. I think observation "proved" Kepler's views about as much as anything. Newton's achievement, perhaps, was accounting for the laws of planetary motion by establishing basic "forces" as the cause for all motion.

            ...discovered the light spectrum... He studied light, including its refraction, reflection, and separation into a spectrum, if that's what you mean. He made some interesting observations. However, refraction of light into a spectrum had been done before. So maybe you would just need to be more specific here?

            ...helped to found the Scientific Method.

            I'm confused and a little annoyed when people talk about the "Scientific Method". I won't accuse you particularly, but most people who use that term have a frightfully bad understanding of the history of science. They think the "Scientific Method", which can be boiled down to observation-hypothesis-experiment-analysis-conclus ion, was something invented a few hundred years ago, and before that, well... people just made stuff up.

            In truth, most of what we call "science" traces back to Aristotle, and even then, it may only be because that's as far back as our records go. We don't have records of Aristotle going through the "Scientific Method", but it can hardly be argued that he didn't go through the same process. What part of it do you think he skipped? Examples that he sites clearly indicate both observation and experimentation. In fact, the "Scientific Method" is, at best, a formal characterization of how the human thought process naturally works.

        • by six11 ( 579 ) *
          Agreed. One of the best bits of advice that somebody has given me on the topic of scientific research is about dead-ends. If you know that a line of thinking goes nowhere, and there is literature and good research to support that, it's highly useful to the progress of science because such research provides a big "Dead End - No Outlet" road sign to future generations. There is nothing so useless as proving something wrong twice.
          • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

            Very true, but it's possible (in theory at least) to revisit a dead end with new knowledge to see if anything was overlooked. Sort of like Cold Case Files.

            And there are many things science has been unable to explain and conveniently ignores. Does anyone remember reports of a towering Stay Puft Marshmallow man that wrought great destruction on NYC in 1984. But unlike 9/11, which had a reasonable scientific explanation (terrorists), science could not come to terms with the events on that day in 1984. Theref
        • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by nine-times ( 778537 ) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Monday August 09, 2004 @09:57AM (#9920133) Homepage
          Given Newton's times, alchemy and astrology were not that far out of the mainstream and indeed had their part in the development of the sciences as the world moved out of the Medieval Period.

          I don't think alchemy was even as silly as you're making it sound. To study alchemy was to try to understand why matter is what it is and does what it does, what makes one substance different from another, and how one substance can change into another. We've refined our methods and our understanding, and we call it "chemistry" now, but it's pretty much the same undertaking.

          People seems to want to think that eveyone from more than 50 years ago was a silly, primitive moron, and that we, now, are finally the "smart" ones who have achieved a "real knowledge" that was utterly inaccessable "back then". However, that's what they thought 50 years ago, too- and fifty years before that, and 50 years before that...

      • Re:Why? (Score:2, Informative)

        by theedge318 ( 622114 )
        What everyone is ignoring here, including the linked article, is that Physicists and Mathematicians in Newton's era were REQUIRED to be ordained Ministers in the Church of England. This decree was set forth by King Charles II.

        The political climate [answersingenesis.org] closely tied Religion and Science. (quite evident in the strong tie between Trinity College and the Royal Society) That way they resolved all of the Galileo type problems. Newton disagreed with much of the church's teachings, and refused to be ordained. Thus h
        • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

          by CaptainAvatar ( 113689 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @01:52AM (#9918184)
          Nobody's ignoring it, because it's not true. (Did you have to link to a creationist website?) Physicists and mathematicians were NOT required to be ordained. The requirement was that any fellow of Cambridge or Oxford had to be ordained. If you had a patron or were independently wealthy, then you did not have to be ordained, because you then didn't need a position at a university to do science. AFAICT, what happened with Newton was that he used a loophole - the terms of the Lucasian professorship (which he held) required that the holder not be active in the church (presumably so as to have more time for science). Newton argued that this should exempt him from the normal ordination requirement, and Charles II accepted this argument. Sure, Newton did this because of his scepticism of the trinity, and religion and science were far more intermingled then than they are today, but you are waaaay overstating the amount of control religion had over science.
    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Cheapen? you are kidding right?
      By discovering this, my view of him has been elevated not degraded. A great man indeed.
    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by PabloJones ( 456560 )
      Probably age.

      While it might seem silly to us that he was interested in topics such as alchemy, in his day, their knowledge of what goes on at the atomic level was almost nothing. To them, alchemy could have seemed possible. But the physical world which we experience every day was easily observable. Newton speculated about how both worked, and happened to be mostly right about physics, and wasting his time on alchemy. But at the time, they both probably seemed like promising enterprises.

      Today we know o
    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Louis Savain ( 65843 )
      I wonder if it would "cheapen" our view of Newton by releasing these documents

      Newton would be considered a crackpot and a nut by the scientific community if he were alive today. And who inherited Newton's chair? A believer [hawking.org.uk] in time travel. I wonder who is the greater crackpot.
      • Newton was a crackpot because he stood on the shoulders of greater crackpots than himself. We stand on his shoulders and therefore ought to be less crackpotty than he. Learning from the mistakes of those who came before us is an integral part of science. Newton came before us.
  • by Martin Doudoroff ( 116376 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:23PM (#9915732) Homepage
    Pantheon published a bio of Newton last year by James Gleick (Chaos, Genius). It's concise and consistently interesting.
  • astrology: not (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bcrowell ( 177657 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:23PM (#9915737) Homepage
    Since someone is sure to bring it up, there is strong evidence against the urban folktale that Newton believed in or practiced astrology. More details in this book [lightandmatter.com].

    There's also some interesting speculation as to whether or not he was gay -- here, there's less evidence one way or the other, but his nervous breakdown may have been caused by the ending of his relationship with a much younger man, Fatio de Duiller (?).

    • Re:astrology: not (Score:2, Informative)

      by bcrowell ( 177657 )
      Sorry about the double post, but for anyone interested enough to download the book, the discussion of Newton and astrology is in a footnote on p. 143 that carries over onto p. 144. The biography by David Berlinski (which I thought sucked, btw) argues for the gay hypothesis.
    • Re:astrology: not (Score:3, Interesting)

      by cmacb ( 547347 )
      Ah...

      That answers a question I came in here to ask about the book "Quicksilver" which contains a strong implication that Newton was gay. Stephenson apologizes in the preface to the book for playing fast and loose with history, but my experience with him is that he doesn't just make stuff up out of thin air. So it's good to know that that aspect of the book was based on existing speculation.

      One problem that people like me (history haters) reading historical fiction is that we don't know the facts from t
  • Too late... (Score:3, Funny)

    by The-Bus ( 138060 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:24PM (#9915741)
    I already voted for The Apocalypse in this poll [slashdot.org]... Once I read some Newton maybe he can tell me for sure if the Apocalypse comes; maybe I can even decipher a HL2 release date.
  • Neither (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Should we consider ourselves 'Natural Philosophers' instead of Scientists.

    Number of physics laws I've come up with: 0
    Number of treatises on church history and alchemy: 0

    I don't know about the rest of slashdot ..but I certainly don't compare to Newton.

    PS> On the other hand I do have some cool 0 days to my name.
  • I no longer drink alcohol, which might be unnatural.

    I'm pretty sure this disqualifies me from being a philosopher, let alone a natural philosopher.
  • Erm.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Turn-X Alphonse ( 789240 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:26PM (#9915756) Journal
    Shall we just change the term to "Person who had a brain" instead? I can become a genius and write the next major OS which works well and does everything perfectly for everyone, but my opinion on jellyfish means jack.

    You can excel at one point but it doesn't mean you know everything.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    What we think of a person should be based on the sum and whole of his/her works. I'm fascinated by both science and theology, and I hope if I ever write something influential in one category, my works in the other aren't completely ignored or discarded.
  • ... sharing his "non-scientific" ideas? I've noticed while meta-moderating here that people put some very thoughtful posts, containing non-mainstream but on topic views about things like evolution, the big bang, etc... they get modded flamebait. I personally believe evolution, but it's also not such a religious belief with me that I have to moderate down other people who don't believe in it.

    I wonder if this is going to lower peoples opinions of Newton here on slashdot?
    • I'd rather see Newton posting on here, than seeing Einstein posting on fark.

      [Amusing] Guy splits atom, spills beer! (99)

    • Considering he wrote most of his theological ideas around the late 17th and early 18th centuries, and we, on the other hand, have the vantage of an additional 300 years of science, I think I'll cut him some slack.

      • Just think, alot of people in the audience may not have the advantage of that science either, depending on their upbringing, where they were raised, and what they studied. It's very easy to fall into the trap of assuming other people have had the benefits of learning what we have learned.
    • It is well documented that Newton had a very contentious mannerism when it came to ideas. See the perpetual attacks on both Leibniz and Hooke. I think that if newton did post to slashdot (which would be rare since he was at times a bit of a recluse as well), he would be modded troll and flamebait.
      • I think that if newton did post to slashdot (which would be rare since he was at times a bit of a recluse as well), he would be modded troll and flamebait.

        Nah, he'd be modded up to +5 almost every time.

        Look what happens when John Carmack posts stuff (and I've absolutely nothing against JC, he's just an example of somebody famous.)

    • by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:42PM (#9916216)
      Oh please. Netwon lived in a time before the scientific method as we know it and before what eventually became the scientific community distanced itself and became aware of pseudo-scientific pursuits like astrology, prophecy, etc.

      Its not the 17/18th century anymore and your argument is a pretty weak strawman. Essentially you are saying "Newton's physics were valid (ignoring Einstein) thus his other views are just as valid and deserve the same audience and respect."

      Uh no.

      All the world's society's gave superstion more than the benefit of the doubt for millenia. It didn't pan out. Move on, don't complain that the book of Revelation or Alchemy or Phrenology deserves a 2nd chance. They have gotten more than their fair share of attention. Its not my fault or anyone else's these theories didn't pan out.

      I suggest at least looking at the wikipedia's entries of protoscience [wikipedia.org] and psuedoscience [wikipedia.org] if you are being sincere and not just making a jab at scientific cosmology and the slashdotters who understand it is the most likely explanation of why things are.

      I also take slight offense at how you're saying its "hip" to be against these dead philosophies, when in reality its much more hip to be against those eggheads in their ivory towers who challenge traditional beliefs. Its very hip for the religious to cry "Persecution!" when a science teacher mentions evolution or when a social studies teacher mentions different religions other than xtianity. I see it in the paper almost weekly. Yet you can join any religion you want, make your kids believe what you like, and religious organizations enjoy tax-free status, gambling rights, and a power-structure that protects them from criminal investigations (at least for a while).

      Ironically, the western world has more religious freedom than ever, thanks to the secularists and western enlightenment.

      Also, a decent primer on how what eventually became science is Shapin's The Scientific Revolution. [amazon.com]
      • Wow, I love how people who passionately argue for the scientific method, jump to conclusions in a very unscientific way.

        Oh please. Netwon lived in a time before the scientific method as we know it and before what eventually became the scientific community distanced itself and became aware of pseudo-scientific pursuits like astrology, prophecy, etc.

        Can science tell you who you are? I don't mean some vauge descrition of being a bipedal primate, I mean telling you who YOU are? I noticed you convienientl
        • by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @08:11PM (#9916755)
          Granted, I read a lot more into your dismissive tone about moderation and "groupthink" than anything else. I used that as a launch pad to post some things which apply to a lot of the comments in this thread. Instead of posting 10 comments I just took one and wrote out what I wanted, sorry if I used you as an example. You can translate my "you" to mean a lot of people arguing the same point you made which is pretty much something akin to "See, now who is the blind follower now?" When its pretty obvious that Newton's work in physics can be tested and falsified unlike his philosophical writings. Not to mention alchemy can be tested and fails (at least the part that later became chemistry). So to equate some kind of blind belief to those who know that Newtonian physics works isn't fair at all and bereting the slashdot community with conspiracy theories is pretty silly. Sure, moderation isn't perfect, but the bible guy and the new ager get modded down for a reason that isn't just "blind group think." You can be in the majority and be right sometimes!

          I mean, do we need another article about the time cube guy?

          There's a large context here and I believe its how ideas go from no where to the mainstream. I like to think of LaBerge's work in lucid dreaming in the 80s. LD was considered either false (didnt happen or was just useless micro awakenings) or a philosophical issue (youre just dreaming youre awake while dreaming) but LaBerge worked at finding a experiment which would prove that lucid dreaming existed by fashioning an experiment that used eye control to prove that a lucid dreamer is really in control of the here and now. After being turned down by a few journals he got published here and there and others reproduced his work.

          LaBerge isa good example because of how the New Age weirdos co-opted lucid dreaming and how he had to fight against preconceptions to prove his hypothesis. Yes, there were harsh criticisms and hard work involved, but that's the life of a researcher. Science does err on the side of caution but when enough evidence piles up against (or for) something then change happens. It happened to Newton with Einstein.

          Or maybe its about how someone can be right in one area and wrong in another. Look at Thomas Gold or Chomsky's politics. History is full of people good at one thing who are wrong/controversial at another.

          I wont even go into the irony of how your "moderators are bad" post is now rated at 5 points.
  • by BACbKA ( 534028 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:28PM (#9915776) Homepage Journal
    Back in Newton's times, scientists like himself were considering themselves and were considered by the others as philosophers, rather than specialized physicists/mathematicians/etc. (This is where the Ph. as in "Ph.D." comes from!)

    This had interesting implications to the way scientific papers were written. Rather than the modern form (just about 300 old) going like "Theorem-proof-example etc.", it was all heavily interwened with theology, intents of the creator, fabric of the world, etc., whatever the domain of the research in the natural sciences was!

    • P.S. We are now witnessing a similar split in the computer programming. The field has widened tremendously, and nowadays people transcending the various areas of programming are becoming more and more rare...
    • This had interesting implications to the way scientific papers were written. Rather than the modern form (just about 300 old) going like "Theorem-proof-example etc.", it was all heavily interwened with theology, intents of the creator, fabric of the world, etc., whatever the domain of the research in the natural sciences was!
      Not in Newton's case. In fact, the impersonal, Olympian modern style of scientific writing basically dates back to him ("hypotheses non fingo"). Theorem-proof-example was exactly the
    • Back in Newton's times, scientists like himself were considering themselves and were considered by the others as philosophers, rather than specialized physicists/mathematicians/etc. (This is where the Ph. as in "Ph.D." comes from!)

      Yes, but the idea is that a Ph.D. (even in the sciences) was supposed to be well rounded. When I got my Ph.D. there was technically a requirement that all graduates had to demonstrate fluency in at least one foreign language, but this wasn't enforced.

      There used to be a degree,
    • The world is truly facinating place. Not only because it exists at all, but also because there are so many wonderful mysteries and miricles. The truly curious person is not going to be limited by a job title or degree. So there is no back in the day. There is only curiosity and the desire and ability to infer, the confirm, conclusions from a limited set of facts.

      Einstein was a natural philosopher. Feynman was a natural philosopher. In twenty years, hopefully, the current set of great scientist will

  • Because he had to (Score:2, Insightful)

    by immel ( 699491 )
    "He devoted more time to what we would now regard as non-scientific topics such as theology and alchemy, writing treatise after treatise on early church history and biblical prophecy."
    _
    He probably had to do this kind of stuff to appease the church. Scientists in this era lived in fear of the mighty clergy. Just look at what happened to Galileo!
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:38PM (#9915834)
      Well it was more that alchemy was still considered a real science back then.

      I guarantee there are certain scientific fields that will seem absolutely retarded in another 200, 500 or 1000 years but are taken very seriously today.

      That's why you should never put scientists up on a pedestal like they are so unquestionable or let them tell you that their crappy theories are truth just becuase "you can't understand it".

      If you said "transmuting lead into gold? That sounds kind of retarded!" The alchemist would say "oh you silly little man you don't have the same mathematical talents I do, now just go away!"

      I now laugh at all high and mighty alchemists who belittled doubters.

      Hopefully in a 400 years when some of the silly bull that some "scientists" spew out is proven nonesense someone will laugh at them on my behalf.
      • If you said "transmuting lead into gold? That sounds kind of retarded!" The alchemist would say "oh you silly little man you don't have the same mathematical talents I do, now just go away!"

        In a way, I wonder if it is possible, just not in the way they thought. I would have thought that somebody would have tried it. The only problem is that it is probably not worth doing from a financial perspective.

        My thoughts are about smashing protons and neutrons into one material and it would eventually become oth
        • My thoughts are about smashing protons and neutrons into one material and it would eventually become other materials by virtue of having been force-fed nucleic particles.

          The bigger problem here is that lead is atomic number 82, and gold is atomic number 79 - you need to get the lead to yield up 3 protons - this is going to require an awful large amount of energy.

          Some people claim to have pulled it off, however:

          There are reports that Glenn Seaborg, 1951 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, succeeded in transmutin

      • Current science. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Christopher Thomas ( 11717 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:22PM (#9916095)
        That's why you should never put scientists up on a pedestal like they are so unquestionable or let them tell you that their crappy theories are truth just becuase "you can't understand it".

        Any scientist that tells you something is "true" has a mountain of evidence to back him or her up.

        Understand the theories, _then_ criticize. Most of these kinds of objection I've heard have come from people who either took the dumbed-down high school version as gospel, or who just plain don't understand the field being discussed.

        Science doesn't know everything. Any good scientist knows the limits of scientific knowledge in their field. All or nearly all models of reality that science has constructed have areas where they don't apply well, as most of these are simpler approximations to very complex systems. But to use this to say that scientists are talking vapour about the areas where they _do_ apply well is extremely foolish.

        The progress of science over the past couple of centuries has not generally been to overturn old theories and models, but to extend scientific knowledge to cover cases where the old models didn't apply. When a new model is proposed, it almost always turns out that it reduces to the old model in domains that the old model was designed to address. This is why Newton's laws of motion still hold, and why you don't need special relativity to find kinetic energy of slow-moving objects, and why general relativity still gives you Kepler orbits and Newton's laws of gravitation in weak gravitational fields, and why you don't need to solve quantum electrodynamics equations to find out how strong an electromagnet is.

        In this light, I find it amusing that you use Newton's works as a supporting example for ignoring scientists' statements when we still use his laws of motion and gravitation for engineering today.
      • If you said "transmuting lead into gold? That sounds kind of retarded!" The alchemist would say "oh you silly little man you don't have the same mathematical talents I do, now just go away!"

        I now laugh at all high and mighty alchemists who belittled doubters.


        Why? Because their theories weren't true? I didn't realise that we were supposed to laugh every time a scientist researched something but didn't get anywhere. In fact I thought that's how it worked: someone comes up with a hypothesis, investigates it
      • > If you said "transmuting lead into gold? That sounds kind of retarded!" The alchemist would say "oh you silly little man you don't have the same mathematical talents I do, now just go away!"

        If you think Alchemy is about turning Lead into Gold, then you seriouly lack a real understanding of what true Alchemy is really about.

        --
        Why don't any hardware rewiew sites post screenshots of what people + lighting look like in Doom 3 on a DX8 card?
      • alchemy was still considered a real science back then

        Not at that point -- in fact, alchemical research was banned, and Newton had to conduct his experiments in secret. (On his deathbed, he extracted a promise that his writings on the subject wouldn't be published, which is why they're still relatively unknown.)

        More on this in Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]. In particular, it points out that alchemy wasn't so much about discovering new things as about rediscovering the supposed 'wisdom of the ancients'. Alchemists believe

    • Re:Because he had to (Score:4, Informative)

      by bcrowell ( 177657 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:40PM (#9915849) Homepage
      He probably had to do this kind of stuff to appease the church. Scientists in this era lived in fear of the mighty clergy. Just look at what happened to Galileo!
      Read the article. His religious writings would have landed him in prison if he hadn't kept them secret.
    • He probably had to do this kind of stuff to appease the church. Scientists in this era lived in fear of the mighty clergy. Just look at what happened to Galileo!

      Insightful. Lets here it for the slashdot moderators! Uninformed christianity-bashing from people who would know better if they'd bothered to RTFA. If you had, you'd have known that Newton's writings actually were fairly heretical, promoting the idea of one God the Father Almighty over the doctrine of the trinity (which would have gotten him i

    • by Sir Pallas ( 696783 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:26PM (#9916122) Homepage
      Actually, it was a different Church and a different kind of philosophy. Aquinas revolutionized the world -- at least the understanding of religion in the West -- with his systematic system of Theology. This kind of systematic exploration made it's way into Astronomy and thus into Physics with Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler. (Kepler, incidentally, was a better astronomer than Galileo; Galileo was certain that the obrits of planets MUST be circular because the circle is the perfect shape. Kepler realized (and told Galileo, who still didn't believe him) that the spheres must be elliptical.) Galileo, it turns out, got in trouble with the Church for a couple of reasons. He took a worldview that said that mathematics is reality. The Church contended that mathematics is only a model of reality. This was a time when scientists were still deciding whether observations made by instruments were of the same validity as obesevations made by the senses directly. (Today, imagine if we placed what we see on the news as being of the same credibility as what we see ourselves.) He was taken to trial and then retracted the definitive reality of the Copernican system, saying that it, at best, saved the accidents. This meant that it was a good model, but no one knew the reality. In fact, the stellar parallax, which was the final proof Galileo needed, was not detected until the mid 19th century. Then he only had a (mistaken) proof about the sun causing the tides. Newton, on the other hand, was not a Catholic -- he protested the King giving a chair at University to a Benedictine, which eventually led to a Revolution that removed King James II from his throne because he was a Catholic. In fact, Newton was not an orthodox Christian, believing a variant of the Arian heresy. He wrote quite a bit about the Roman Pontif being the Whore of Babylon and tried to calculate the date of the Second Coming. What we must remember is that philosophy was not so big back then that one man could no master large parts of it. Now, with so many different fields, scientists must diversify and can not be experts in all of philosophy or science. But he was certainly not obligated by any ecclesiastical body to do this or that in order to do his work.
      • by bubbha ( 61990 )
        He took a worldview that said that mathematics is reality. The Church contended that mathematics is only a model of reality.

        There are two main world views that my reading has uncovered....those who think that consciousness is a product of the material world. And those who think that the material world is a product of consciousness.

        The astrology, alchemy, geometry, references are much older than Newton....they predated him by two thousand years at least. They are meant to be interpreted literally to non-i
    • Hey but after 300 years or so in 1981 the Catholic church "forgave" Galileo. It all works out in the end :)
    • Re:Because he had to (Score:3, Informative)

      by apetime ( 544206 )

      He probably had to do this kind of stuff to appease the church. Scientists in this era lived in fear of the mighty clergy. Just look at what happened to Galileo!

      He actually did a lot of his work in theology against the accepted order of the church in England. Newton was heavily into Arianism, which denies the holy trinity, and would surely have been branded a heretic if he had revealed his beliefs. He believed that the church in his time, and throughout most of its history had been corrupted after th

  • by rokzy ( 687636 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:36PM (#9915814)
    and today science is still a major source of philosophical debate, both directly e.g. consequences of quantum mechanics, cosmology... and indirectly e.g. cloning.

    the very meaning of Ph.D. is quite a big hint too.

    but I still consider myself a scientist because I think an important thing is that no matter how good your logic is and how nice your explanations are, it doesn't mean a thing if it's inconsistent with ***observations***.

    mathematics is the subject for people who have great logic but don't concern themselves with it actually having any relevence to our own universe.

    modern "pure philosophers" are people who don't care about their logic being relevent to this universe or any other! ;-)
    • We must remember that the fields of study which we today Science are really very limited in its scope compared to what was considered science in Newton's time and before.

      In the broadest sense, Science or scientia is simply knowledge. In classical terms, the four main branches of Science were Mathematics, Philosphy, Rhetoric, and the so-called Practical Sciences.

      It is only in recent centuries that we have divorced the more esoteric disciplines from Science and reduced it to the Practical, that is to say, t

  • by monk ( 1958 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:47PM (#9915885) Homepage
    Looks like he inspired Mr Stephenson in more ways than one...
  • by allanc ( 25681 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:49PM (#9915895) Homepage
    1) Motion must not harm a human or, through inaction, allow a human to come to harm.
    2) Motion must obey all orders given by a human, except where such orders conflict with the First Law.
    3) Motion must protect its own existance, except where it would conflict with the first or second laws. ...

    It's possible I'm thinking of robots here. It's been a while since I took Physics.

    --AC
  • If Newton wasn't the smartest person who ever lived he was close. Some of his ideas where important some weren't. The ones that were were ones that were scientifically testable or mathematically provable. In fields like theology you can get completely lost in ass-wankery that has nothing to do with anything. So the great Newton persued many interests. His science and math changed the world. His theology and alchemy were about as important as any other works of that nature. I think it goes to show tha
  • Similar to Pascal... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Vexler ( 127353 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:59PM (#9915943) Journal
    Blaise Pascal is often credited as one of many historical figures responsible, in one way or another, for the development of modern computing. His mathematical achievements, similar to those of Newton, were only part of his preoccupation in life. His famous "Pensees" was a powerful treatise on Christian apologetics (i.e. defense of his faith), and as a philosopher he left a rich legacy to this day.
  • by thedogcow ( 694111 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @05:59PM (#9915944)
    Like most great minds, Newton particulary did not do so well interacting with other people.
    Some interesting Newton personality traits and tidbits can be found here [theintrovertzcoach.com].
    • He did a stand-up job running the royal mint, both making it more efficient and putting the pound on a solid footing.

      It seems strange that someone who was so eccentric, and not at all a "people person", should be such an effective manager, but perhaps Newton was good at anything he cared to be good at.

  • Alchemy is often unfairly maligned as it essentially *became* chemistry. They were working from a set of assumptions, such as the mutability of the atom through chemical means, that we *now* know to be false, but they had no way of knowing back then.

    By the standards of 300 years from now, I'm sure our science will seem downright primitive and "unscientific" in comparison.
    • Re:Alchemy (Score:2, Informative)

      by IBX ( 793635 )
      what separates alchemy is its lack of scientific method.

      It is not a problem that some original asumption turned out wrong. This happens in science all the time. But alchemists believed all kinds of traditional stuff and did not know how to separate ideas that worked from those that did not. Mysticism goes against scepticism - the basis of critical reasoning.
  • from the article: 'Yet if we go by sheer word count, physics was only one of Newton's intellectual priorities. He devoted more time to what we would now regard as non-scientific topics such as theology and alchemy, writing treatise after treatise on early church history and biblical prophecy.'

    Also little known to most Newton teamed up with John Nabisco to create many tasty cookie inventions. He was just all over the place!
  • IP and Newton (Score:3, Interesting)

    by scum-e-bag ( 211846 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:14PM (#9916031) Homepage Journal
    Quote from the article: 'Yet if we go by sheer word count, physics was only one of Newton's intellectual priorities. He devoted more time to what we would now regard as non-scientific topics such as theology and alchemy, writing treatise after treatise on early church history and biblical prophecy.'

    If Newton lived and philosophised under todays intellectual property reigeme we may not have calculus, especially since he has been credited as one of the founding fathers of this branch of maths. Would it be considered a patentable algorithm or process under todays US enforced laws? What would the world be like without free access to calculs?
  • The fact that Newton worked with dozens of subjects outside of math and science is not surprising, since he was an INTP [typelogic.com]. Quite simply put. Once an INTP personality type masters a subject, it very likely they will move on to something else out of boredom.
  • I've just finished Quicksilver - I thought I'd better wade through it so I could start on The Confusion.

    I reckon it is best read as a mildly-accurate potted history of modern Science and Economics, rather than a novel. A lot of these historical anecdotes are interesting in and of themselves (e.g. Newton's wider interests), but the attempt to add action and intrigue really just clashes with the long segments of (interpreted) history lessons.

    Stephenson would have been better off writing a collection of sho
    • Keep on reading. I think you will find that in The Confusion the action and intrigue take a first plane, and the story actually starts to move in a direction. I didn't like Quicksilver too much, for the same reasons you mention, but I'm glad I read it because The Confusion was very fun to read. I can't wait for The System of the World.
  • by nwbvt ( 768631 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:29PM (#9916143)
    Philosophy and science have always been closely linked. Einstein had philosophical interests and Kant enjoyed astronomy. In recent years there has been a bit of a split between the two camps, but not entirely. Half of the students in my philosophy classes (I am pursuing a minor) are engineering or math students (though I go to a university known more for its engineering program than its philosophy program).

    Yeah, for many here on slashdot the closest they will get to philosophy will be watching a Star Trek episode. But many others have broader interests.

  • by MsGeek ( 162936 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:32PM (#9916157) Homepage Journal
    ...were not so far behind each other after all?

    William Blake held Isaac Newton [tate.org.uk] up as an example of stale, dry, Atheistic reason. The famous drawing I have linked to here is that of his conception of Newton, sitting in a dry desert, playing with a compass.

    What would have been if Blake would have read some of Newton's writings on theology, I wonder?

  • by ewe2 ( 47163 ) <ewetooNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday August 08, 2004 @06:58PM (#9916317) Homepage Journal

    There's a bit of socio-scientific revisionism in the concept of the 'unknown' side of those like Newton. It's bizarre to see this 'unknown' meme pop up again and again, particularly because this side of Newton was most famously pointed out in the bestselling Holy Blood, Holy Grail" [amazon.co.uk] twenty years ago.

    There's as much resistance to similar evidence about Boyd and Da Vinci, most of it due to ignorance about the 16th century mindset.

    Hopefully the Newton Project will do something towards embedding a bit more realism into our historical perspective.

  • J. Gregory Keyes' cycle "The Age of Unreason [randomhouse.com]" pictures a world where science is systematized alchemy and it works. Newton is the master of the art and takes a colonial boy named Ben Franklin as an apprentice.

    Some "scientific" inventions are the fervefactum, the ethergraph, shoes that float on water and the kraftpistole.
  • pr0n & Newton (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ergean ( 582285 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @07:28PM (#9916484) Journal
    If i remember corectly Newton's first book Principia was published by a pornogrphy publisher, who could print it at a lower cost with money from Edmund Halley. All of this because the Royal Society had spent all the money in that year, for a nice fish ecyclopedia.

    So \.-ers if you consume pornography you help the human kind to evolve.

    Porn is good!
  • And here I thought this was a new thing from Apple!

  • Should we consider ourselves 'Natural Philosphers' instead of Scientists?

    Nup we're definitely scientists. Scientists stand slightly more chance of being employed for more than a burger flipper.

    "Would you like fries with that? Let us examine exactly what a fry is, taking into account its physical and incorporeal qualities".

  • Neal Stephenson fans may find this article a nice adjunct to Quicksilver.

    Quicksilver didn't cover Newton's broader--today we'd call them non-scientific--interests as deeply as The System of the World [metaweb.com] most likely will. Half-cocked Jack versus Newton The Exchequer ought to be good!

  • by Brettt_Maverick ( 780722 ) on Sunday August 08, 2004 @11:54PM (#9917784)
    "Scientist" is actually a relatively recent word. It's an awkward fusion of latin and greek (in true latin, it would be ScienTOR). So awkward in fact, that some protested its widespread adoption, preferring the then status quo - "natural philosopher".

    A phiolospher is literally one who 'loves wisdom', a 'natural philosopher' is therefore one who craves an understanding of nature and all the stuff whats in it.

    So, there's nothing new about calling scientists 'natural philosophers'. It's as much a step forward as calling a car a 'horseless carriage' - we're already there.

  • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Monday August 09, 2004 @12:08AM (#9917824) Homepage Journal
    We care about Newton's "Thermodynamics" because so many of us have tested his science, and agree with it. It's a consensus based on shared experience. That's why science is so popular as a belief system: it requires very little faith to accept facts. Some would say that it requires faith only in "falsifiability", and "consistency". Falsifiablility is a long word for the rigorous principle that any statement worth making is one that could be false, if tested - and the ones that are worth more are the ones that have never tested false, despite much testing. Consistency is the principle that statements that any statement worth making is always true, everywhere - sometimes known as "universality". Newton's science not only used these principles to become popular, but also strengthened them with their effective application.

    Everything else people say, including Newton, that is neither falsifiable nor consistent, belongs not to "physics", the science of physical phenomena, but to "metaphysics". It can be fun, or illuminating, or even persuasive, but it's not physics, it's not as reliable, and it's worth saying only if those values aren't important.

    Newton is a legend for his contributions to science. His other contributions might also be worthwhile to discuss. Science has changed a great deal since Newton's time, as has metaphysics. Perhaps some of his other investigations were disregarded, as science itself was not yet sophisticated enough to incorporate them. The basic techniques of science can be applied, and perhaps we can derive yet more benefit from the man's work. But it's important to remember that we're not engaged in "scientistism". We like Newton because of the value of his work. If the rest of it, like his hairstyle, is irrelevant today, that doesn't detract from his other contributions. However, as the work of one man who gave so much, it's probably worth testing at least some of his work that hasn't yet made it to the scientific canon.
  • Arcane (Score:3, Insightful)

    by l3prador ( 700532 ) <wkankla@gmaTOKYOil.com minus city> on Monday August 09, 2004 @01:10AM (#9918060) Homepage
    And yet scholars are still struggling to comprehend how such a rational thinker -- the man who gave us three laws of motion, the law of universal gravitation and so much more -- could have simultaneously immersed himself so deeply in arcane matters. I'll bet theories like gravity were considered arcane at the time as well.

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