Just Add, Umm, Water 496
An anonymous reader writes "The US military has devised a way to ensure its troops in battle need never go hungry - with dried food that can be rehydrated using dirty water or urine. Bleh, but lightweight bleh." The original New Scientist story is available too.
Weird (Score:4, Informative)
I think I'd rather steal food from natives than eat US Amry-supplied kidney damaging "food".
Re:Weird (Score:5, Insightful)
Then again, if the water situation is really that desperate, wouldn't eating hinder your chances of survival, not help them?
How much damage would there be, anyway? Any more than, say, regularly drinking whiskey?
But the whole thing brings to mind a guy I know who sold water filters in the early 90's. He'd demonstrate their effectiveness by pouring coffee through them. Not that anyone would *want to*, but they could. Same deal here.
Re:Weird (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you're overstating it. You can go without water for a few days, you can go without food for a few weeks (provided you have water!).
Otherwise people would be dying of dehydration in their sleep :-)
Re:Weird (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Weird (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the current situation most deployed soldiers face- roadside bombs, bullets, kidnappings with beheadings, and the other ways they can be stabbed, shot and blown up, how deadly do you think one or two or even three pissings is going to be? The company that made the membranes said not to use urine unless you have to. But to read your post, it's like that is the standing order on these things: Piss in them if you want to eat. And it's not so.
It's all good in a hypothetical: "I think I'd rather steal food from natives than eat US Amry-supplied kidney damaging "food"." Seriously? You've got the balls to steal food from some guy who's only goal is to kill you, but you can't suck it up as a LAST RESORT to piss in a pouch? Please. If it came down to being that dire of a situation, just eat the food and let it "rehydrate" in your stomach.
Good luck surviving any kind of situation which might cause you to step outside the norm.
Re:Weird (Score:5, Funny)
Who would have thought that your kidneys couldn't handle a feedback loop.
Re:Weird (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd rather eat whatever isn't lilikely to be poisoned.
Re:Weird (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Weird (Score:5, Insightful)
"The Chinese had thrown thousands of men against it, but the company held like a rock. The unit was cut off from its battalion, isolated deep in enemy territory; battered and bruised it held on, and when ammo and food ran out, the troupers lived off the land and used captured weapons. They built a barrier wall of tree branches, like the men at Valley Forge; the Chinamen came and the Chinamen went and the valient unit did not give an inch, until finally a U.S. tank force broke through and extricated it."
That was Lt. Doug Anderson's company in Korea. He was put up for the Medal of Honor, but didn't get it. If you think the men in that battle preferred eating grass to a ration that becomes edible with muddy water or urine, you should read a little military history.
Question the morals of those in charge, but thank every scientist who gives the grunts a way to get a meal better than "centipedes in chili sauce" when things go pear-shaped.
(the quote was from "About Face" by Lt Col Hackworth.)
Re:Weird (Score:3, Informative)
LS
Re:Weird (Score:3, Insightful)
they train them to use vehicles and weapons to engage and kill the enemy, and also to take fire and be killed. once you're over that, eating your own piss is a walk in the park.
Re:Weird (Score:3, Insightful)
The story is not asserting that eating pissy chicken once will cause health problems over the long term. It's saying that eating pissy chicken over the long term will cause health problems. Resorting to it a few times when it's the only alternative to starvation will not have any long term consequences.
When you're hungry, you're hungry (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When you're hungry, you're hungry (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When you're hungry, you're hungry (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When you're hungry, you're hungry (Score:3, Funny)
Re:When you're hungry, you're hungry (Score:3, Funny)
If I understand correctly... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:5, Funny)
A: Pea soup!
Q: This beer tastes like warm piss. ... desert
A: That's not beer, that's
Q: This food tastes like shit.
A: Sorry, we ran out of piss.
Q: Why are you so pissy lately? ...
A: You are what you eat, so
Q: Get over here. We need you to help make supper.
A: Sorry, I "gave" at the office.
Q: Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?
A: Everyone.
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:5, Funny)
Foreign Soldier 2: A whole case? Bring it over. Trust me, these guys will drink anything. You won't believe what I saw them eat for supper.
And then there's this:
"Hey soldier, we need some fresh coffee. You mind filling 'er up?
... Thanks
Hey, the Colonel wants some cream. Here's a Penthouse. Do your duty, son...
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:2)
Hey, yet another way to make MREs more disgusting! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hey, yet another way to make MREs more disgusti (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hey, yet another way to make MREs more disgusti (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hey, yet another way to make MREs more disgusti (Score:5, Funny)
MREs and dirty water (Score:5, Interesting)
MREs have gotten steadily better over the years. The first meals were pretty bad. I remember dehydrated chicken & ham loaf (I'm not kidding) with horror. But by the early 1990s they were really good, and they've continued to improve over the years.
Just ask anyone who had to endure C-rations. They'll tell you about truly crappy combat rations.
As for the US Army's attempt to come up with a way to use dirty water or urine, the primary goal is to allow soldiers to use dirty water. Don't get too wrapped up in weird urine scenarios. Believe it or not, much of the world drinks water that's hazardous to the health of Americans. Delivery of potable water is a major constraint on the American way of war. We put immense logistical effort into making sure our soldiers get bottled water. This contributes to our outrageously bad tooth to tail ratio, and it makes the military more beholden on civilian contractors to provide logistics support.
Americans have shown time and time again that we prefer to win wars with logistics, and our enemies know this. Any flexibility, however small, that allows us to reduce our logistics dependency is good in my opinion.
Re:MREs and dirty water (Score:5, Informative)
*US* MREs are not haute cuisine. French MRE are actually incredibly tasty: they come packaged with a single-use heater kit that you assemble under the can and light up, it cooks in about 5 minutes and once it's done, it really is yummy.
There's a good reason why US military personels were dying to trade all kinds of hardware for rations with the (few) French soldiers in Iraq during Gulf War I.
Re:MREs and dirty water (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anyone else but the US call their combat rations MREs? But I digress. The taste of rations is definitely a matter of opinion. I traded for a few French rations and found them too rich for my taste. BTW, the French and Belgians were anxious to trade for MREs. It seems variety is the real scourge of combat rations. Eat enough of them and you'll crave anything else that provides variety.
The fact that you have to actually use flame to heat the Franch rations (don't know if this is still true) is a serious mitigating factor in real tactical situations. It means that you wind up eating the damned thing cold. MREs are lighter and can be stripped down more easily, heated in your cargo pocket while you're on the move, and are more practical in general for grunts.
But then I've never been a huge fan of French food anyway, so take my comparison for what it's worth. If only I could have met some Italians and traded with them. Anyone know how their combat rations taste?
Re:MREs and dirty water (Score:5, Informative)
Re:MREs and dirty water (Score:3, Interesting)
Way back when they used to include cheap cigarettes with the C-Rats. I guess that was to help you forget about the awful taste of the food.
If you go even further back, the US Army fed troops beef that was rotten when they bought it. Some troops dies, but Hormel made tons of money off of it.
LK
Re:MREs and dirty water (Score:3, Interesting)
The second half of the book is harder going. Mr. Sinclair's cure for all this would be socialism; the variety described would be lot closer to Marxism than the variety practiced by Western countries. At the time it wasn't associated with totalitarian brutality but the
Re:Tooth to tail? (Score:5, Informative)
Could you explain this "tooth to tail ratio"?
Sure. The tooth is the part that bites, and the tail is the part that drags behind. The tooth of a military force is the combat force, the actual fighting soldiers and their equipment. They're the people who actually push the enemy around and force the conclusion of the conflict. The logistical tail is the rest of the force, which exists to support the tooth and make sure it has everything it needs to fight effectively. Modern, mechanized military forces require incredible amounts of support. Ammunition, fuel, food, spare parts, intelligence, mail, etc., it takes a lot to keep them fully supplied, but they're also very fast and very hard-hitting when they're well-supplied.
However, while the tail is so crucial to the effectiveness of the tooth, it's also a liability itself. If the tooth is concentrated on taking the fight to the enemy, it can't focus on protecting the tail, which may leave the tail vulnerable to attack. Successful attacks on the supply lines leave the combat soldiers without supplies, dramatically reducing their effectiveness. The longer the tail, the easier it is to cut. Also, while well-supplied modern forces are highly mobile, the logistics chain is not, and the larger the tail, the more sluggishly it moves. This leads to situations where the combat forces can easily outrun their own supplies, effectively cutting themselves off. Last, all of the people and equipment who make up the tail cost just about as much money as the combat forces, but don't directly contribute to shoving the enemy around. The tail appears to offer no "bang" but costs a lot of bucks so for a given budget, a combat force that requires a smaller logistical tail is a larger, more powerful force.
The tooth to tail ratio, then, is a measure of how much of the force is dedicated to fighting vs support.
Re:Hey, yet another way to make MREs more disgusti (Score:3, Funny)
Horrible. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Horrible. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Horrible. (Score:5, Funny)
Water (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Water (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Water (Score:2)
and how is there any net difference? (Score:2, Interesting)
Would you mind explaining to me, Private Genius, how there's a net difference in water intake between those two scenarios? If you pour a cup of water to rehydrate your meal, you're also drinking it.
I agree with other posters- this invention is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of and a colossal waste of money.
Re:and how is there any net difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not at all.
This allows you to reclaim water that otherwise you would have disposed of. So, if you have 2 canteens' worth of potable water and a puddle, you can drink those canteens, and then reclaim however much you need to rehydrate your meal from the puddle. This gets you 2 canteens plus part of a puddle's worth of hydration. If you don't have this, you only get 2 canteens' worth.
Alternatively you can reuse those two canteens' worth by using your urine to rehydrate your food, getting double-use out of at least some of that water.
Re:and how is there any net difference? (Score:2)
Plus, you're going to end up with everyone wanting to wash their hands and brush their teeth SO much more (basic psychology).
Add the need for more careful hygeine (really wash those plates so there's no cross-contamination) and you end up needing MORE water, not less.
Re:Water (Score:2)
Re:Water (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Water (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Water (Score:5, Interesting)
What they ought to do NOW is put the technology in the public domain, and donate a couple of million pouches to the Red Cross. I wonder how reusable the membranes are, and whether they could be used to create clean water once the ration was consumed?
Re:Water (Score:2)
Re:Water (Score:5, Informative)
You know how the more fuel a rocket has, the more fuel it needs, due to the additional weight of that fuel? Understand how most of the fuel is ultimately spent in complete waste, as it's just carrying itself?
Kind of the same with water. Water is HEAVY -- seven pounds a gallon. We blow quite a bit of it just dragging it around -- and don't worry, it provides all of no calories; it's useful as a catalyst and a cooler, but not as a fuel. Almost all the water we consume is just excreted back out, pretty clean too (urine is one of the purer substances to leave the body). It's be pretty useful to be able to fully filter the stuff and reintroduce it to our food. Perfectly efficient, no, but would you rather lug around 50 pounds of water?
--Dan
Re:Water (Score:2)
So yes, that is close to perfect. This technology is neither useless nor stupid.
Re:Water (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Water (Score:4, Informative)
And, especially when you're a grunt in combat situations, most of your water waste is via sweat, not urine.
Eventually, all the water we consume we excrete. Otherwise, we wouldn't need so much of it. I mean, are we capable of destroying matter in our body?
Re:Water (Score:3, Funny)
Water is HEAVY -- seven pounds a gallon. We blow quite a bit of it just dragging it around
I always wondered why no one ever invented dehydrated water.
Sure, it may sound gross (Score:3, Interesting)
Though I wonder why they didn't make the filter finer to filter out the urea.. Would it cost to much? Be to large?
Urea is too small (Score:3, Informative)
And to drink? (Score:2, Funny)
But (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not letting someone else hydrate my food.
Hmm... (Score:5, Funny)
Not a 100% accurate quote (Score:2)
"You know there isn't a single soldier in Easy Company who'd double time it up and down Currahee just to pee in that guy's coffee."
Well now you can without the double time!
Cheap Clean Water? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cheap Clean Water? (Score:5, Insightful)
*cough* It's being sold to the military. Who said anything about being "cheap?"
Re:Cheap Clean Water? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Cheap Clean Water? (Score:4, Informative)
I think it works by osmosis [wikipedia.org], so it won't work just to clean the water: the water is drawn across the membrane into the food because the salt concentration is higher on the food-side.
If you were to remove the food, and try to use the pouch empty, nothing would happen: the water would not flow across the membrane.
This is why reverse-osmosis filters require some sort of pump to create pressure against the membrane, to force the water through.
- Peter
Filtration is pretty effective (Score:3, Interesting)
Basic filtration is a fairly well-solved technology - campers can buy yuppie-priced water-filters that can turn pond scum into nice clear safe drinking water as long as the problems are bacteria, giardia, dirt, etc. rather than soluble chemicals, and they help on some of the chemicals as well. They won't fix overdoses of salt, or heavy metals, and most of them won
Is it really so hard.... (Score:2)
Re:Is it really so hard.... (Score:2)
Re:Is it really so hard.... (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, in fact it is really hard to get food & water ( & fuel & ammo) to troops. An army is only as fast as it's supply lines. As was evident and highly reported in the push to Bagdad last year, the troops moved much faster than the supply lines and ran short on food and water. Logistics is a Huge part of any military.
Dirty water or urine? (Score:3, Interesting)
But dirty water? If you're in the middle of Iraq, I suspect the water may itself pose a health risk. I can't drink the water when I visit third-world countries, and I'd certainly be worried if our troops were exposing themselves to disease.
That's the point of RO filters (Score:2)
As for how well this particular one works, I dunno, but they can be made to work amazingly well.
Re:Dirty water or urine? (Score:2)
Not that I think there are rivers of H2S flowing in the world. But no filter is perfect, and there is certainly some risk. The best way to clean water is still heating it up.
ick. (Score:2)
Shit! (Score:2)
Better? (Score:3, Interesting)
Join the army!! (Score:3, Funny)
Bleh.
Good Example.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good Example.. (Score:2)
That's the usual way of how things sometimes work. If it doesn't kill, maim, burn, freeze or radiate soldiers, it might just be good enough to apply to civilians. Think of computers, radar, ARPAnet, etcetera. All stuff made by the military but applied for civilian uses later on.
Re:Good Example.. (Score:2)
Nah (Score:3, Funny)
Nah, that would piss me off.
Sorry... somebody had to...
Retaining water (Score:2)
Re:Retaining water (Score:2)
Doesn't bother me. (Score:2)
And thanks to a recessive gene, I can't taste it anyway!
I know someone's about to reply with "And how did you find that out?", so before you do, ask if you really want to know the answer.
It's not as bad as it sounds (Score:2)
Rehydrating food with urine... (Score:2, Funny)
Just an advertising ploy (shock sometimes works) (Score:4, Insightful)
New army running song ...??? (Score:2)
You can eat all you can pee!"
(A friend came up with this yesterday while we were talking about the article.)
All right (Score:2)
But it does make me start to wonder how long it will take until we have stillsuits.
Is there a difference? (Score:3, Interesting)
let's get our priorities straight (Score:4, Funny)
Water, Water, Everywhere . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
We use vehicles to accomplish the logistical feat of transporting soldiers, equipment and water. The US Army calculates that the average soldier consumes something like five gallons of water daily. No, not just for drinking--hygiene, cooking (i.e., field mess facilities), etc. This figure increases for desert operations, for obvious reasons. Considering that five gallons of water is 40 pounds, and considering that a division comprises something like 10,000+ soldiers, then we are looking for something on the order of tons of water required daily. What's more, most of that water will need to be purified. So, the goal here is to reduce the burden on the military's logistical infrastructure by having the soldier consume less water. Sure, it's probably an expensive experiment that will be met with failure.
What's interesting is this is not the first time there's been a *big* experiment. In the '40s, when we were fighting another crazy ideology or two (fascism, national shintoism), some nut thought that we could train our soldiers to consume less than the required amount of water--especially for desert operations. The idea there was to reduce the burden to the military's logisitical infrastructure by having the soldier consume less water. What's disappointing is this: the human body requires a minimum amount of water to operate. The Army learned that lesson by watching dozens (I've heard as many as hundreds or thousands, but that seems a tad high) of soldiers died disproving the experiment. I think the loss of human life was more expensive than the loss of a few tax dollars. Besides, I think the government wastes money in several other areas that should be reined in first.
Sweat and tears (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds Familliar (Score:3, Funny)
Well that finally explains my highschool's cafeteria food...
Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
Inelegant (Score:3, Interesting)
So... why not give every soldier a really good filter that both filters out urea and can be reused?
Of course, the army is not necessarily known for trying to find low-cost solutions...
Filtration (Score:3, Informative)
Here is selection [rei.com]
Whether these could be used under combat conditions is another question.
Osmotic potential (Score:3, Interesting)
A typical standalone filter uses gravity, and it very, very slow. (note that the typical crappy 'water filters' desinged for tap water don't cut it for swamp water).
Practical reverse osmosis filters use pumps to generate a pressure difference to make the thing work in sensible time. That's a power requirement, and more weight.
The trick that's
Fremen! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Transhumanism has a better answer. (Score:2)
Call me when it's available. The phone number at my AntiGrav Flying City is 1-888-sar-casm.
SB
Re:Transhumanism has a better answer. (Score:2)
Re:Finally! an MRE with Flavor!!!! (Score:2)
What food contains, or is made of, and how it tastes are two different things.
Just look at your average McDonald's burger for instance: most people find it tasty and juicy (well, I must say I find the taste gross, but I seem to be in a minority), yet it contains beef meat you'd puke if you saw how it's produced, reconstituted onions, genetically engineered tomatoes, and scores of flavoring and coloring chemicals. And what's more, it demonstrably makes you si
Re:Begin the Frank Herbert references now... (Score:3, Insightful)