ESA Plans Test of Asteroid Defense System 305
vinlud writes "It has been announced by Dutch television ESA has chosen the Don Quijote programme to investigate the possibilities of altering the collision course of asteroids heading for Earth. The program, selected among five other studies, contains two spacecraft: Hidalgo and Sancho. Hidalgo will impact an asteroid of approximately 500 m diameter at a relative speed of at least 10 km/s while Sancho will retreat to a safe distance to observe the impact. An animation of the mission sequence (6.49 Mb) can be downloaded from here."
That's NOT important (Score:5, Funny)
This music (Score:2)
Re:That's NOT important (Score:2)
;-)
Re:That's NOT important (Score:3, Informative)
Bull's eye! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's definitively more exciting but I wonder if it's not too hard to make such a millions miles away 'bull's eye'. 500 m in diameter is pretty small at this distance...
Re:Bull's eye! (Score:5, Interesting)
With the ability to correct the flight enroute, it shouldn't be too difficult at all. When Cassini went into orbit around Saturn, the navigation was so precise that they did not need to do a corrective burn.
Still, if for some gosh-awful reason you can't hit a 500 m target, this is the perfect time to find out!
Here's a bunch of folks that will probably have fun looking to see what effect the collision might have: The folks on the Minor Planet Mailing List [bitnik.com] are really into tracking the orbits of these rocks. I wouldn't be surprised if their data is the stuff that narrows the error bars on this experiment!
Re:Bull's eye! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bull's eye! (Score:3, Insightful)
All I can say is hats down and apploads to the cynicist who thought of the name for this program. It is a near perfect description of our current technological ability to change the orbit of a NEO.
Re:Bull's eye! (Score:3, Insightful)
You know what they say - practice makes perfect.
Re:Attacking Windmills (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Attacking Windmills (Score:2)
Re:Bull's eye! (Score:2)
Re:Bull's eye! (Score:3, Funny)
It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womprats with my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than 500 meters.
Low expectations? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The full original title was El ingenioso hidalgo don Quixote de la Mancha. The adjective "quixotic," meaning "idealistic and impractical," derives from his name, and the expression "tilting at windmills" comes from his story."
Re:Low expectations? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people would say that it would be impossible if not futile to attack windmills and believe you could win over them. But Don Quijote never doubted his abilites, no matter what Sancho Panza thought.
Maybe this is what ESA has thought about when they named their mission: Keep hope up, no matter how impossible the task seems.
Re:Low expectations? (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I love the name. It's good to know that the ESA scientists have a sense of humor. Especially when Sancho sits back and watches the fireworks while our brave hidalgo charges into battle!
Re:Low expectations? (Score:2)
Re:Low expectations? (Score:2)
On the other hand, IIRC, one of the themes of the book was many people tended to humor Don Q. and --in the humoring-- they joined him in his fantasy world. Maybe the name is an attempt to get buy-in on the project?
I have to admit that Sancho is appropriately-named, since throughout the entire book, Sancho held back and observed instead of joining Don Q. in action.
Re:Low expectations? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, since the impactor weighs nearly nothing compared to an 500m asteroid and is going to have negligible effect, it's named very accurately. The whole point of this thing is that it's easier to scale up from something than to start completely from scratch.
--
Re:Low expectations? (Score:2)
-cp-
Alaska Bugs Sweat Gold Nuggets [alaska-freegold.com]
Re:Low expectations? (Score:3, Insightful)
This makes perfect sense to me. now that I've actually read a summary of the story written by a Spaniard, [google.com]
Re:Low expectations? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hidalgo's ultimate goal... (Score:5, Funny)
-S
Re:Hidalgo's ultimate goal... (Score:2)
You shouldn't have revealed that this is all part of a conspiracy to get their funding pumped up to $1-trillion to solve the problem for real. Don't answer that knocking at the door!
Hope they don't knock it *into* our path (Score:4, Insightful)
Simon
Direct link to 6MB file - clever (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Direct link to 6MB file - clever (Score:5, Informative)
Another solution... (Score:3, Funny)
LIES about space weapons (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Illiteracy has not been a problem for what, 5000 years or so?
If anything, the planet is at its most literate today. As for plagues, they come and go and are have a lot more to do with sanitation. Last check the septic system in N. America and Europe was pretty good. Droughts and floods have been going on since Noahs time, and frankly I think it a lot more likely we manage to deflect/blow up a big rock in space than change the weather in any significant
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
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Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:3, Funny)
Starting Score: 1 point
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Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
There's still much to be learned about how likely an impact is. We don't know how many near Earth objects (NEOs) there are. We are especially uncertain about the number of smaller NEOs, because they are hardest to detect.
The smaller but stil
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
I am not sure about missile efectiveness on a NEO episode, probably very low, but if you look at ancient history (miths and ancient traditions) there are clear traces of similar episodes in our past.
Fire from sky, falling rocks, tidal waves and other catastrofic events are recorded in almost every tradition all over the world. In fact I don't know of any single ancient culture without this kind of memories.
As someone said about a NEO impact; the question is not 'if', is just 'when'. Our traditions regis
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Agreed on historic manipulation by religions and politics, but the lets not forget that the fact is that this kind of memories exist on every tradition, from the 'big' ones to the small aboriginal peoples.
That excludes the posibility of being only local plots, and the simplest remaining explanation is that these are memories from natural events. The interesting part is that if even in our limited memories (just some thousands of years) we already have that kind of experiences, those episodes seems to be m
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:3, Interesting)
astronomy is a clasical and easy explanation, the problem I have with this one, is that 1) is too simple and 2) is an opinion from our own culture, 'we' have astronomy but what about the ones that lived 20Ky before?.
There's still no reason to believe that devastating impacts are more frequent than we did before.
No, no more frequent, but if our memories are right, they already happened (ie: there are strong indications of an abrupt end of the Bronce Age (3.5Ky), that expanded across northen africa to mid
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Information about predictive frequency requires both a mechanical model and
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
But that doesn't line the pockets of weapons makers, so we remain in the grip of faith/fear that has ruled us since time immemorial.
just to be fair: modern weapon makers are not responsable of inmemorial stupidity, just unlimited greed. :)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Um, they didn't get an antiasteroid defense because, well, they had neither a functioning and comprehensive understanding of celestial mechanics, nor a history of remote sensing, nor a well-developed rocket industry, nor nuclear weapons, nor...
To say that the ancients were duped and that we are being duped in the same way is just simply silly. No matter what the evil overlords of religion had said 3Kyears ago, they could
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
We're not a lot wiser, perhaps, but we are much more capable.
On the other hand: slavery is now universally illegal. (It's not gone, but it's gone underground, and that's still progress.) Maybe we are wiser after all.
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:3, Insightful)
In many ways, AIDS is completely preventible and needs no government money. So many people are fully aware of the risks and yet continue to have unprotected sex and share needles. I don't see the point in spending government money to protect people from themselves.
IIRC, auto accidents kill more people than AIDS does. I don't see the point in halting space research just because people are still willing to kill each other.
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Are you kidding? This is slashdot, where we're all wide-swinging libertarians. What the heck is the repressive government doing in the ghettos, anyway? Why shouldn't the inhabitants have the right to burn whatever they want? And if conditions are bad, well, they should have chosen better when selecting their parents.
In case it isn't obvious: {SARCASM} {/SARCASM} tags should be inserted.
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Isn't it ironic to moderate the parent post as Funny?
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
speaking about odds (Score:2, Interesting)
And remember, before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.
at odds with the facts (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:5, Insightful)
It is highly doubtful that either plague or Greenhouse effect could kill off all human life. There has never been a plague that was anything close to 100% fatal, and it is biologically doubtful that such a thing is possible, given the large diversity and wide distribution of our population. As for the Greenhouse effect, plausible worst-case projections are on the order of a few degrees warmer, occurring over a fairly long period of time, and possibly an increase in severe weather. No plausible projection has the Greenhouse effect producing more than a modest effect on the size of the human population. I would place the probability of annihilation of human life by either of these events essentially at zero.
On the other hand, large asteroid impacts clearly have occurred in the past. There is credible scientific evidence that they have wiped out widely-distributed species in the past. Projections of consequences of a large impact suggest that it is plausible that such an impact could kill all human life. Asteroid impacts are the only known, credible, avoidable event that could potentially wipe out humanity. This would seem to justify significant investment in protection.
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
No. I am suggesting that the preservation of the human species is a worthwhile endeavor quite apart from the preservation of individual lives, and should not be evaluated on the same cost-benefit basis as the preservation of individual lives. And I am arguing that an asteroid (not meteorite) impact is in fact the most probable preventable hazard to the human species as a whole.
Are you proposing we build space arks
Nuclear war (Score:2)
What about a total nuclear war between say the US+EU vs Russia+China? It would not be enough to kill everyone on the planet straight of, but the mid term effects would be comparable in severity to a massive asteroid crash...
Re:Nuclear war (Score:2)
Yeah, probably about as bad as a medium sized asteroid. But I don't see this as a problem amenable to a technical solution. We just have to continue to be smart enough not to do it.
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
"Asteroid impacts are the only known, credible, avoidable event that could potentially wipe out humanity. This would seem to justify significant investment in protection."
end quote
I disagree, due to the energies involved and ranges to target I would suggest that asteroid impacts most certainly are NOT avoidable, because to have a sufficient level of space tech (and energy budget) to afford to alter the delta vee of an asteroid suggests a technology level that already has the human race (and hopefully
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Energies involved? You ca
Re:I can think of a few more (Score:2)
Solar flares and pole shifts do not fall into the class of avoidable thr
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Re:LIES about space weapons (Score:2)
Damn! (Score:4, Funny)
I was really betting it would be an asteroid.
Original text page gone (Score:2)
Testing the Asteroid Defense system for yourself. (Score:5, Funny)
so.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:so.... (Score:2)
I can imagine that if NASA was testing this, there would be an uproar because of such a theory.
Being able to hit a 500m asteroid in a very well known and predictable orbit is not nearly the same as being able to hit a 5m wide rocket in a potentially unstable and unpredictable trajectory.
Re:so.... (Score:2)
By arguing that the mission helps to save mankind by deflecting hazardous objects, they'll get funding and support from the general public.
Since it is disappointing what most people think of space exploration, do not consider this "repackaging" improbable.
It's All in the name (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps the most famous part of this book is when Don Quixote gallantly charged at windmills, while Sancho watched. In his troubled mind, The windmills were evil Giants, which he sought to destroy to win the favors of his sweethart Dulcinea, wich is a very accurate depiction of what the program is supposed to do.
I find that the depiction, regardless of the obvious fact that in the book it was a hopeless cause; is a romantic metaphore, rather than an endorsement of failure, poor engineering or idealistic but unreachable goals.
As a side note, this book (El ingenioso Hidalgo, Don Quixote de la Mancha) is to the Spanish Language as The Count of Montecristo is to French, Luther's New testament translation is to German, and the works of Shakespeare are to English.
I disagree on the Count of Montecristo (Score:3, Insightful)
As a Frenchman, I can tell you that while Montecristo is certainly the best book written by Dumas and probably in the fifty most important French books written, it is not "The Book". That honour would probably go to Victor Hugo's "Les Misérables".
I'm pleased by the
Re:I disagree on the Count of Montecristo (Score:2)
I sort of guessed that from your pseudo
Re:It's All in the name (Score:2)
Not only that, it's the most translated book after the bible [amazon.com]. I just started reading it (in spanish), and I'm enjoying it a lot myself ;)
NEO a hazard? (Score:4, Funny)
But Neo is The One!
Missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
And the names do fit. They fit because Don Quijote tried to bring back the idealized lifestyle of chivalry. His desire was to protect the good cause and perhaps slay a dragon or two in the way. He was mocked by people because they believed such perils were nonexistent. Just like we mock this far fetched perhaps, but still necesary project that aims to be our first line of defense in case of a possible, if not improbable event.
I fail to see how people can criticize this and yet run SETI at home on their computers.
Godspeed Don Quijote, and Sancho Pansa, I for once, am gratefull of your so much needed lunacy.
Number Crunching (Score:5, Interesting)
Assuming that the Hildalgo probe masses in at 25 kg (the same as Sancho - it might be less) and is moving at 10km/sec and assuming the asteroid has a density of 3g/cc (giving a mass of 4x10^10 kg, and if the probe is absorbed into the asteroid and no material is lost from the asteroid, then the change of velocity for the asteroid will be about 6x10^-9 km/sec.
For comparison, the asteroid probably has a velocity somewhere on the order of 5-10km/sec.
If the asteroid and probe hit head on with both having a velocity (relative to the sun) of 10km/sec, then you can double the change to 1.2x10^-8 km/sec
It's probably a good idea to check my work. Here's how I did the calculation:
Let m1 be the probe and m2 be the asteroid.
v(center of mass)=(m1*v1+m2*v2)/(m1+m2). v2=0 for this reference frame and m1+m2 essentially equals m2. Since we're in the reference frame of the asteroid being stationary, the combination of probe and asteroid will still have the same velocity for the center of mass.
I hope I didn't botch this estimate....
Re:Number Crunching (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Number Crunching (Score:3, Interesting)
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Link to namesake novel... (Score:2)
objectives (Score:4, Informative)
Good for the toolbox. (Score:2, Insightful)
Wait... what are they testing it on? (Score:2)
We will all be very sorry... (Score:2)
Dumb idea (Score:2)
What a dumb idea! Disintegrate a potentially deadly asteroid so the earth can be showered by the debris instead. Hope there aren't any big chunks! Since it is likely any large asteroid collision will be detected years in advance a very slight course correction using a chemical rocket would suffice. If bombarding an asteroid with a projectile has scientific merit, great. But don't pretend the activity has any relevance to asteroid hazard avoidance.
Re:Dumb idea (Score:3, Informative)
You don't have much of a change disintegrating 500m asteroid by hitting it with a probe weighting few hundred kilos unless you're doing the ramming at relativistic speeds.
Impact Calculator says: (Score:3, Informative)
Impact Effects Robert Marcus, H. Jay Melosh, and Gareth Collins
Your Inputs:
Distance from Impact: 100.00 km = 62.10 miles
Projectile Diameter: 500.00 m = 1640.00 ft = 0.31 miles
Projectile Density: 3000 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 10.00 km/s = 6.21 miles/s
Impact Angle: 45 degrees
Target Density: 3000 kg/m3
Target Type: Competent Rock or saturated soil
Major Global Changes:
The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and remains intact.
The impact does not make a noticeable change in the Earth's rotation period or the tilt of its axis.
The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.
Energy: 9.82 x 1018 Joules = 2.35 x 10^3 MegaTons TNT
The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth is 4.3 x 10^4 years
Crater Size:
Transient Crater Diameter: 4.59 km = 2.85 miles
Final Crater Diameter: 5.63 km = 3.50 miles
The crater formed is a complex crater.
Thermal Radiation: Time for maximum radiation: 0.43 seconds after impact
Visible fireball radius: 3.5 km = 2.2 miles
The fireball appears 7.9 times larger than the sun
Thermal Exposure: 3.60 x 104 Joules/m2
Duration of Irradiation: 6 seconds
Radiant flux (relative to the sun): 6.5
Seismic Effects:
The major seismic shaking will arrive at approximately 20.0 seconds.
Richter Scale Magnitude: 6.9
Mercalli Scale Intensity at a distance of 100 km:
VI. Felt by all. Many frightened and run outdoors. Persons walk unsteadily. Windows, dishes, glassware broken. Knickknacks, books, etc., off shelves. Pictures off walls. Furniture moved or overturned. Weak plaster and masonry D cracked. Small bells ring (church, school). Trees, bushes shaken (visibly, or heard to rustle).
VII. Difficult to stand. Noticed by drivers of motor cars. Hanging objects quiver. Furniture broken. Damage to masonry D, including cracks. Weak chimneys broken at roof line. Fall of plaster, loose bricks, stones, tiles, cornices (also unbraced parapets and architectural ornaments). Some cracks in masonry C. Waves on ponds; water turbid with mud. Small slides and caving in along sand or gravel banks. Large bells ring. Concrete irrigation ditches damaged.
Masonry C. Ordinary workmanship and mortar; no extreme weaknesses like failing to tie in at corners, but neither reinforced nor designed against horizontal forces.
Masonry D. Weak materials, such as adobe; poor mortar; low standards of workmanship; weak horizontally.
Ejecta: The ejecta will arrive approximately 144.2 seconds after the impact.
At your position the ejecta arrives in scattered fragments
Average Ejecta Thickness: 4.6 mm = 0.1822 inches
Mean Fragment Diameter: 3.5 cm = 1.37 inches
Air Blast:
The air blast will arrive at approximately 333.3 seconds.
Peak Overpressure: 19232.2 Pa = 0.1923 bars = 2.7310 psi
Max wind velocity: 38.2 m/s = 85.4 mph
Sound Intensity: 86 dB (Loud as heavy traffic)
So let's see - you're 100 km away - first you experience a 6.9 earthquake, and the red hot 4.6mm fragments arrive 144 seconds later? Great - that's like 250 km per hour... Nice. Anyone in the open is DEAD, and your house might not survive that either. Then after being weakened by a major earthquake and a barrage of highspeed rocks, an 86 mph wind comes to visit.
Great. Sounds pretty crappy to me. I doubt that it would be the end of the world (Except for LA, but who cares?) but I think that even a smallish rock like that would produce some MAJOR damage, and should be avoided at all costs - alomst as much as voting for GW should be avoided.
RS
This is the European space agency (Score:5, Funny)
Re:This is the European space agency (Score:3, Informative)
Ha Hah! [google.com]
Re:I have a better solution (Score:2)
Umm...
A group of astronauts are on a mission. One of them are Bruce Willis, and decides to leave to stop an asteroid arriving at 10 km/s. The others turn around and says, "ketchup!"
Orbits alter without us doing anything (Score:2)
I think we'll all agree that NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab has one of the, if not *the*, best planetary empherides ever created anywhere at anytime. And they won't project the orbits of major planets too far into the future because of the natural uncertainties of orbits.
why democracy is such a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure one can question the wisdom of altering the course of an asteroid that is currently not on a course to earth as there is a risk that the new course might be a problem. Except that it would be reasonable to assume that the people at ESA have thought of this too.
The trajectories of space objects are something we actually understand really really well. It is simple math and the bigger objects have had their path calculated very accuratly centuries ago.
If we follow the advice of people like the above poster the human race would still be stuck up a tree worried about the dangers of the forest floor. Luckily we didn't and some of the monkeys got eaten but others survived and thrived.
Re:why democracy is such a bad idea (Score:2, Funny)
If we follow the advice of people like the above poster the human race would still be stuck up a tree worried about the dangers of the forest floor. Luckily we didn't and some of the monkeys got eaten but others survived and thrived.
I thought coming down the trees was widly regarded as a bad move. Me? I think we should never have gotten out of the water in the first place. I say, stop with all that so called "progress" [progressiv...ogress.com] already?
Re:Playing with fire (Score:3, Insightful)
Google for that, or if you're too lazy to do it, here is a very short summary of what you can get by reading a bit:
- According to newton, every body with mass sees a force from each other body. A so called N-body-problem. (You should know that already =:)
- The orbits of all gravitating bodies (sun, planets, moons, asteroids, spacecraft etc.) in the solar system are chaotic, i.e. a small change (for example a displacement in the e
How eloquent (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, thank you Mr. Hume, for destroying philosophy, and thank you modern education, for destroying poor Grimace1975's ability to spell.
Just because you do not know, doesn't cast doubt on the validity of the science behind this. It just means that YOU'RE ignorant.
Thats a bunch of Professionals on a Shoestring. (Score:2)
They probably gave one person who was not neccesarily a paid professional animator a few stock meshes and CAD diagrams and said "You've got a week before we need you back on the *real* R&D".
After all, animations such as these are mid-project and just aimed at the dimwits in the press who can't get their heads around these kinds of projects.
At this stage where funding will have been agreed a
bad mod (Score:2)