


Doctors' Neckties Transmit Germs 100
bzipitidoo writes "Real geeks don't wear neckties, and maybe the rest of the world wishes they didn't have to. Ties had a minor comeback with the recent bad job market, but hopefully that's behind us. Apart from the obvious that neckties are uncomfortable, useless, in-the-way, and therefore a waste of time and money, too-tight ties constrict blood vessels and
raise eye fluid pressure which increases the risk of blindness. Now there's a new study showing that
doctors' neckties transmit germs. One suggested remedy from the article is tie condoms."
how unfortunate (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:how unfortunate (Score:5, Interesting)
I never understood why people associate ties only with the stress of their work (the tying/binding part), their PHB (the requirement to wear a tie), or the rigors of formality (again, required). The tie is one of the few personalized, professional pieces of formal attire a man is allowed. Embrace it!
Re:how unfortunate (Score:5, Insightful)
Here are some reasons to wear a tie:
-You'll appear more professional than your workmates who don't wear one
-You'll appeal more to management types
-You gain the appearance of having status and importance
-It's the only safe place in formal workwear for a man to express himself.
-Ties are a "success indicator", which essentially means that you will be viewed more favourably by persons of the female persuasion (unless your tie has flashing boobies on it).
If none of those reasons has any appeal to you, then don't wear a tie, dress down. The people climbing upwards on the ladder of success will thank you for getting out of their way.
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
Dodgy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Your reasons to wear a tie seem to be based around a dubious ethic of climbing the corporate ladder based on appearance rather than merit, then picking up the sort of classy lady who is mesmerised by business neckwear. Since I lost the tie I am doing way better in both departments.
Wouldn't it be better for everyone if success was earned on the basis of merit / quality rather than their shiny veneer? Think of (for example) successful software versus its less successful, higher quality alternatives. Or politicians. Or people in your workplace. Or whatever.
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
People outside the geek world understand ties. They don't understand the subtleties of RFC3056.
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2, Interesting)
I say wear a tie. It makes a nice personal statement and shows your coworkers some respect. No one likes to
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Dodgy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok so now you are just being silly. Of couse safty takes precedence over appearence (but not everyone works in a machine shop, do they?) Of course you can wear a tie with a ratty t-shirt or a pit stained polo. THat is not really the point is it? The tie just symbolizes formality, as far as this discussion goes. Now obviously someone who belives in the importance of formality in the work place would not wear a tie with ratty clothes. So we can ingore arguments of this nature.
The REAL question is whether formality is a good thing to have in the workplace or (secondly) whether it is a valid grounds for promotion.
So, let me try to adress this question.
Consider this, if you are having a dinner party. Do you clean up the house some first? (Most people do.) Why? It is not nessesarily functional to have the floor vacumed. Having the bathrooms clean does not make the food taste better. But cleaning the house shows RESPECT for your company. It shows then that you care about them enough to go a little beyond what is absolutely nessesary. IN effect you are saying that "I know you may not really care about athetics while you eat, but this is a way of showing you that i don't mind going a little out of my way for you."
Formality has the same function in the workplace. It shows those whom you work with that you respect your job and that you don't mind trying to look nice while you are working. It shows your boss that think enough of your work to present what is considered a "professional" appearence. Dressing formally at work is a way to make a constant, passive, outward showing of your attitude about your work. It is so wrong for a boss to take into considerations his employee's attitudes as well as performance when giving a promotion? Esp between two equally (or near equally) skilled people.
Again, looking at the dinner party example. Lets say that you are invited to two dinner parties on the same night. For the sake of argument, they are both to be catered by the same company. NOw you know that at person A's house you will find a clean house, sparkling bathroons, vacumed carpets, and all that stuff (the suit and tie, if you will). At person B's house, you will find a house that is in disaray. Magzines and newspapers scaattered across the floor. A bathroom that is in disaray stained walls, ect. (ratty t-shirt and stained polo).
NOw since the dinner is catered, there is no reason to worry about quality or sanitation of food (quality of work is the same). SO which house do you go to? House A or house B? I think most of us would rather go to house A. Even though the presentation has no effect on the taste of the food. WE just feel that that person appreciates us more, cares more about the party, ect. and it is that attitude that we like.
Similarely, in the workplace, if the quality of work done is nearly the same, it is quite reasonable to take into account the attitude that people chose to present while at work. SOme of the attitude that we have towards our work is the way in which we choose to cloth ourselves.
I hope that makes at least some sense. Everything you do reflects your view of the world. This includes the idea that the way your dress reflects your view of your job. At least to some extent.
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
If there's enough beer, wine, and whisky being served at the dinner party, I can guaran-damn-tee you that having the bathrooms clean most assuredly does make the food taste better. The second time around.
Re:Dodgy. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't like clean, vacuumed, neat, disinfected, chilling houses. I prefer to go to places where there's still doritos left in the bowl from a previous occasion, where the hall has a bunch of coats and shoes thrown on top of eachother, where the host wears 2 different socks and pants with holes in the pockets. Where th
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
So to fix this lets assume that you are throwing a dinner party (you are a worker) and you know that your guests are rather neat people and would prefer to attend a party at a clean house (your boss likes it when people dress formally). Then it would be reasonalble to expect
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
which, coincidentally, applies to all things in life
The problems begin only when you bump into someone who considers HIS needs and taste to be universal or superior. Foruntately, your post proved you not to be one of those.
Cheers !
Re:Dodgy. (Score:1)
The problem with your argument is that real respect for others is not a very typical trait of people who attach great importance to ties. Besides being self-evident (if they did repsect people, as opposed to eppearences, they would respect whatever the person chose to wear), it also fits well with my experience.
Nothing wrong with wearing them, but requiring others to really does reveal priorities in a not very flattering way.
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Dodgy. (Score:1)
That doesn't mean not wanting to wear a tie means wanting to wear canvas clothes to be utterly practical. So, maybe you want to wear a wristband or armband instead. The fact is, the tie is an archaic fashion statement, and I'd be mo
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
Re:Dodgy. (Score:1)
Re:Dodgy. (Score:1)
A tie is random. Sure, I agree. But guess what,
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
It is my understanding that the canonical use of a tie was to clean eye-glasses. I can think of several other uses that are ... interesting ... if not wholly practical. Ties can be used in sex play and as weapons, for instance, but I don't think that's what the boss has in mind when he tells you to wear one to work ... or maybe it is. Hard to say unless you are part of that culture, which I am not.
Who was is said "I have never seen a programmer doing actu
Re:Dodgy. (Score:2)
The REAL question is whether
The first bite is with the eyes (Score:2)
Re:The first bite is with the eyes (Score:1)
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
My mental keyword extraction from the parent post goes like this:
-"appear"
-"appeal"
-"appearance"
-"safe place"
-"indicator"
Words to live by, I guess.
Re:how unfortunate (Score:3, Funny)
Here are some reasons to wear a tie: -You'll appear more professional than your workmates who don't wear one
And if you work in an environment where the rest of the professionals don't wear a tie, they'll think you have a need to appear this way, you apparently need to mask incompetence.
-You'll appeal more to management types
Where I work, management types do not wear a tie except when visiting clients. You'll look ridiculous.
-You gain the appearance of having status and importance
-It's the only saf
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
But what I am saying is that there are these distinct advantages to wearing a tie over not wearing one. It's not just about wearing a tie, it's about grooming and dress sense in general. When you look neat and professional, you tend to garner more respect.
Let's prete
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:how unfortunate (Score:5, Funny)
Here are some reasons to wear a jewelled codpiece:
-You'll appear more medieval than your workmates who don't wear one
-You'll appeal more to codpiece-wearing types
-You gain the appearance of having status and importance
-It's the only safe place in formal underwear for a man to express himself.
-Codpieces are a "success indicator", which essentially means that you will be viewed more favourably by persons of either persuasion (unless your codpiece is extremely small).
If any of those reasons has any bearing on the job you actually do, you're probably a codpiece salesman or Henry VIII. The people climbing upwards on the ladder of success will wonder why you pay more attention to what you wear than who you are, or how well you did your job.
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
A very fetching pearled codpeice! [netfirms.com]
Is John Travolta's [lermanet.com] codpeice over inflated, or just his ego?
Batman [manduda.com] wouldn't be quite so heroic without his codpeice.
A George Dubya Bush double [oldamericancentury.org] play! [internetweekly.org]
And to finish off, A Briefe History of the Codpiece. [thehendricks.net]
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Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
haw haw
Re:how unfortunate (Score:1)
Re:how unfortunate (Score:1)
That's circular logic. Professional people wear ties because it looks more professional to wear a tie. Times change.
Tool.
"appearance" being the key work here.
Other than, watches a nice shirt, a good haircut
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
Now that I'm living in Queensland (Croc Hunter, Surfers Paradise, beer) I have given up wearing ties for good. While they do give a professional feel in the colder climes where you wear suit jackets
Re: suits transmit germs. (Score:2)
The study was performed by the highly respected Doctors Who Don't Like to Dress Up Especially In the Summer Association of America.
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
From now on, a tie will represent the puke running down the front of my shirt caused by your statement.
Re:how unfortunate (Score:2)
Remember folks... (Score:2, Funny)
I like ties (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I like ties (Score:2)
So do you like um have to leave the big grey plastic security tag on as a symbol of your out-sized virility?
Re:I like ties (Score:2)
So, err.. what exactly does a Scotch molecule look like then?
Re:I like ties (Score:1)
Well (Score:4, Funny)
And would those be "ribbed for her pleasure"? My suggested remedy from the article is to close the browser window and try to forget the whole thing.
Useless?! (Score:2)
Ties had a minor comeback with the recent bad job market, but hopefully that's behind us.
Clearly, you must be living in India.
Apart from the obvious that neckties are uncomfortable, useless, in-the-way
Useless? And what exactly do you plan to cover your shirt buttons with if not a tie? I don't wear ties and I never will. Period. I'll wear a dress shirt on occasion but unless I'm an executive, a tie is really overboard and hints at a tendancy to ass-kiss.
How about stethoscopes? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're going to needlessly worry about something, worry about the doctor's stethoscope. I'm a medical student, and I've never heard of people cleaning their stethoscopes unless the patient was on contact isolation. I have yet to sterilize mine. Why? It's just not terribly conducive to crap growing on it, and you never put it on open wounds or the like. Skin is a pretty damn good barrier to pathogens.
Also, if you want to worry about more stuff, worry about doctors washing their hands. It's unprofessional and a health risk not to, but it doesn't happen as much as it should with certain people. (I've shadowed GPs who washed their hands less than once per patient.) Many physicians trust Purell hand sanitizer, but some don't. There's a reason no surgeon would scrub in with Purell - they instead use iodine-based scrubbers, with plenty of mechanical scrubbing. Then two layers of gloves on top.
There are worse things than ties...
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:2)
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:2)
Well - I could imagine a situation in which spores of some aspirated fungus get transferred to the chest of a immunosuppressed patient. Then the patient touches his/her chest, then wipes his/her nose. Not something to go nuts worrying about, but not "nil" either.
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:3, Interesting)
Ties on the other hand aren't made of cold metal. They carry around germs and reinfect the doctor's hands when he adjusts his tie.
So your argument is a little incoherent in that you first say that stethoscopes are more worrisome than ties, then explain that stethoscopes don't carry disease, while never addressing the point of the article--that ties come in contact with patients and bedding all the
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:2)
Yeah, I was a bit unclear. My point was - there are higher-yield things we can do to reduce the incidence of nosocomial infection. I think getting physicians to do a better job washing their hand
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:1)
it is late at night, at least where I am.
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure ties can carry nasty bugs, but there are worse things in the wards.
I guess, but that's hardly the point. Not wearing a necktie is a one time change that's very easy to implement and easy to verify. Getting doctors to wash their hands more is something that requires constant vigilance and is very hard to verify. The fact that there are other things that will reduce hospital disease spreading more effectively is beside the point. It's not as if you can't do both.
Also everyone knows that hands spread disease, so more education is going to have minimal impact. The necktie disease vector is far less known I'm sure, so educating doctors about this would go a long way.
Re:How about pens? (Score:4, Insightful)
Pen condoms??!
Re:How about pens? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How about pens? (Score:1)
Re:How about pens? (Score:2)
Re:How about pens? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:How about pens? (Score:1)
Rings are also bad news (Score:1)
Re:Rings are also bad news (Score:2)
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:2, Insightful)
I hope the study mentioned in the Reuter's article was a bit better than the blurb made it appear. The 'control' was a security guard. I can think of at least a dozen differences between the guard and the medical staff that could account for this. What's more interesting is that ~50% of the d
Re:How about stethoscopes? (Score:5, Insightful)
While handwashing is indeed numero uno for reducing cross-contamination (and did you point out to these GPs that they didn't wash their hands?), don't dismiss the humble stethosope as a fomite.
Not everyone has wonderfully intact skin. Though it may not be a gaping wound, there are indeed skin disorders that leave people open to infection. People also have lines in that are always getting damned infected - place a grungy steth near the point of entry and you could be creating the next bacteraemia.
Pop over to PubMed and search on "stethoscope nosocomial infection".
Even though stethoscopes may not be as bad as unwashed hands*, it still doesn't mean we can't take simple precautions to protect patients. And take the opportunity to lose the ties as well.
*note: there hasn't been a double-blind study done of hand-washing versus no handwashing. but you try and get that one past the ethics committee.
I don't like ties very much. (Score:2)
2) No matter how many times I am taught or teach myself, I cannot remember for the life of me how to tie a damn tie.
However, if you're going to wear a tie, I would recommend Lee Allison [leeallison.com]. They have several ties that would interest geeks. And, of course, every tie they make AFAIK has on the inside the words "remove before sex"; what's more geek that that?
Absolutely Useless (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Absolutely Useless (Score:1)
A recent survey of IT shops ... (Score:5, Funny)
Yet another good reason not to wear a tie to the office :-)
Re:A recent survey of IT shops ... (Score:2)
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Fashion (Score:2)
You aren't asked to know about colour co-ordination all you are asked to do is figure out what a suit means and choose a tie for a simple purpose but geeks neglect this simple thing. Sad really.
Look at a peacock and think about how much worse things could have gone for you, now spend twenty minutes looking at ties and analysing your emotions, you're done for life andif you know what you are doing you just gained a little power.
Washing machine? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's interesting that the neckties were the cause for concern, but not the shirts or the belts. I'm assuming that's because the neckties are not washed as regularly as another other item of clothing. Why not just throw the necktie into the washing machine along with the rest of the clothes?
Re:Washing machine? (Score:1)
It might also have to do with the fact that a tie may dangle, and therefore may have more contact with or get closer to patients than a shirt would. Tie tacks to the rescue?
Re:Washing machine? (Score:2)
I'd wager that most professionals don't think ties get dirty unless something is dropped/spilled on them -- it's not actually in contact with your skin except when being adjusted.
Re:Washing machine? (Score:1)
I got off at the wrong bus stop.
Sorry about the offtopic comment.
Re:Washing machine? (Score:2)
I went to a public school, never had to wear a uniform, and subsequently never learned to tie a tie.
I'm now nearly 30, have worked for several companies including a very large, very well known European telco and now am a director of a small IT company that I co-founded. I have worn a tie exactly four times in my life. Two times were funer
Re:Washing machine? (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure public schools, while they can have "rules" that require uniforms, can't actually enforce them from a legal perspective. So, if you don't want to wear the uniform, they can't kick you out or suspend you.
Private schools, of course, can pretty much do whatever the hell they want.
I went to a public school and always wore the "casual" uniform. Personally, I don't see why people kick up such a fuss about it. It saves parents money and often makes
Tie Hygiene?? (Score:2)
I don't mind ties much. Despite what anyone might wish for or delude themselves about; people make shallow, subjective judgements a
ties not often washed/cleaned (Score:4, Informative)
Many hospital germs, including the most dangerous antibiotic-resistant MRSA, have been found transmitted in/on noses and hands of medical staff.
Some hospitals now have dispensers for alcohol hand-rub in each ward/department, for everybody to use on their hands when entering and leaving, and some tests seem to have shown these alcohol rubs to be the most effective thing yet against contagion.
Maybe tie-bags for medics are not such a bad idea to add to that.....
-wb-
Re:ties not often washed/cleaned (Score:2)
You could make them from Tyvek or Mylar or some other neat, inexpensive material.
You could even make them out of treated litmus-type paper stuff, so that they would show any liquids that might have contaminated them.
Better yet, you could make ties from agar, and then culture the tie itself to see what sort of baddies the doctor was exposed to all day. It would be a nice information gathering tool for epidemiologists.
And for the non-medical geeks, ties c
Just ties? (Score:4, Interesting)
While an earlier post mentions that ties are perhaps the least washed article of clothing, the unanswered, and maybe unasked, question is: What about the rest of the suit or whatever else might be worn? Did they swab shirts and jackets to see what those held as well?
If it's just ties with high levels of pathogens, then ditching them makes medical sense. If it's any cloth the physician wears, then just getting rid of ties won't really have any effect. The 'tie condom' sounds silly, but really something like that goes on now with what surgeons wear for each procedure. Would it be that farfetched to have a physician change what would be pretty much an apron between examinations if it meant healthier patients?
solution (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:solution (Score:2)
indicator (Score:2)
BioChips, Bioelectronics cures cancer, AIDS. (Score:1)
Air Vectored Diseases (Score:2)
Except that might infect space. Those germs might be able to survive in a vaccuum, and we'd be infecting the entire universe.
We are dirty dirty dirty and our planet should be sterilized so we don't kill the universe. Nuke us from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Tie Tacks (Score:2, Interesting)