Vatican Astronomer Comments On Extraterrestrials 1312
An anonymous reader writes "There's an Astrobiology.net interview up with a Vatican astronomer, Guy Consolmagno, who also curates one of the world's largest meteorite collections. On the possibility of a non-terrestrial lifeform, he says initially 'I don't know', followed by three scenarios. First, he argues: 'We find an intelligent civilization and there's no way in creation we can communicate with them because they're so alien to us. We can't talk to dolphins now. In which case, we'll never know.' Secondly, he suggests: 'We find the intelligent civilization. We can communicate.' As agents of free-will, the aliens are self-aware of good and evil, thus convertible to some terrestrial religion. Thirdly: 'We find a dozen civilizations out there, and a bunch of Jehovah's witnesses go up and convert them all.' The question of whether an alien civilization might convert Earth to their religion, or become a religion unto themselves, is left unconsidered. This compares to the many reasons people give for hosting a SETI@home client, including that ET contact would unite humanity, challenge religion, or all of the above."
Or how about (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Interesting)
There's already a lot of people who believe in Grey Aliens, but I haven't heard of people interpreting these Greys to be Christian angels or demons.
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Insightful)
Then again, if you go looking for them you'll find someone who believes anything you can come up with.
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Funny)
I wonder how long it will take the scientology monkeys to order slashdot to delete this post.
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Informative)
Most people here, these days, probably don't even remember the squabble [slashdot.org] over the scientology post.
Thing is, however, the reader posted a chunk of copyrighted text (who the hell copyrights their own religion?) and the scientologists used the DMCA to cut it down.
You, on the other hand, merely pointed out that the scientologists are, in yours, and mine, and pretty much all sane people's opinions, a bunch of babbling loons.
If anyone from the church of scientology would like to contact me and try to argue against my opinion, my e-mail address is available with this post (a package deal!). Feel free. I need a good laugh.
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Insightful)
Most religions would fall over backwards for the chance to teach you about what they believe. Scientologists would rather that you didn't know what they believe, but want you to join anyway. And people think this is a real religion?!
Re:Bibles. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Funny)
Hey, I resent this ! We, discordians, are the real bunch of babbling loons, not those scientoschmientologists.
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking of C3PO (Score:3, Funny)
I heard about a religion a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. The priests of this religion wore plain brown robes and carried sabers made out of light. They were (supposed to be) good and kind and helped fight evil.
I've never even met this alien civilization and I already want to convert to Jedi.
Not all relgions are created equal. (Score:4, Funny)
In the given question of how religions would respond to this 'new' reality, I think would fair quite nicely. Budism and Hinduism would have little if any problem with this, and would probably brag about their general philosophy of univeralism. Jews would find some 2,000 year old comment, saying that they always knew this. Muslims would most likely be outraged. Aithiests would have an absolute fit, when they translated the alien pledge of aliegence. And the Georga school board may finally allow the teaching of evolution (that the Aliens came from apes).
The basic need for faith, in something, by far exceeds the need to keep ones world view intelectualy honest.
And maybe that's a good thing.
ps. Even if *WHEN* we discover ET, that doesn't prove or disprove anything other than ETs do exist, and really prefer M&Ms over Reeces-Peeces.
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah, bonjour M. Pascal! It's been at least ten minutes since I last heard that one. Of course, the problem with this is that it applies to the beliefs of every other loony on the street, not just to yours.
Personally, I don't go around believing things just because they come with big threats attached to them, and I think that pretending to believe in a god on such dishonest grounds is a far worse insult to that god than simply not believing, in addition to being quite reprehensible moral cowardice to boot.
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, the problem with this is that it applies to the beliefs of every other loony on the street, not just to yours
Yes, but if that looney does unquestionable good, why patronise him? Does that make you a better person?
Re:Or how about (Score:3, Insightful)
There's no ass-kissing involved.
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Insightful)
How would you feel if someone walked into 7-11 you were in and said he was going to shoot everyone who didn't say green was thier favorite color, but those that did could leave right now and he'd pay them $50? Saying green is your favorite color wouldn't really hurt you and get you $50 in bargain.
You'd be ticked as all hell, and you wouldn't believe this guy liked you even if he said green was better for you in your everyday life.
Personally I'd rather be around people who do thier best to be good people than ones who half ass it, yet meet this special requirement for a better afterlife.
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to start believing in a being that behaves worse than a spoiled child, threatens those he says he loves, posseses contradictory powers, and has the morals of a sociopath. Especially when there are several such, all claiming to be the only one. And each on is running a different racket than the next, with the only major items in common is that the head believers all get special privilages here in this life, and a series of directives that make not believing a good way to get killed, or in more 'enlightened' cultures/times, meerly treated like a second class citizen and a leper.
Mycroft
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Insightful)
And in black and white in the Bible we find the exact oppposite:
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14)
You'd have to actually read it to know that, though.
Let me guess: you also have to 'interpret it properly'.
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Informative)
Reading past the passage you mentioned would have cleared things up a little:
This passage, when considered alongside the many other verses that say salvation is achieved through faith and not deeds, tells us that 'good works' 'living the good life' (read James 2 1-12, previous to the verse you posted) is intertwined with faith (see verse 22 above).
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Insightful)
The act of faith, in itself, is a work. That is why "salvation through faith", while hugely popular, is in itself heretical. It's just a bolted-on idea with little Biblical basis. The comment that James is not canon is nonsense.
If you rewrite the grandparent post to say "salvation through irresistable grace", things start to make a lot more sense. If you accept the idea that Man is fallen (as it taught in the Bible), and is only redeemed through the grace of God (i.e. it is not by any work of ours that we are saved, as is taught in the Bible), then James starts to make sense. Faith, by itself, is only one manifestation of salvation--not salvation in and of itself--and works are an external expression of faith and salvation.
The inevitable question is, "How do you know if you are saved by grace, then?" Well, if you have faith, and you do works, it's a fair indicator.
Discussions like these are why I get so annoyed with religious discussions between believers and non-believers. Non-believers tend to lump all Christians under a single rubric, when Christian-on-Christian oppression is at least as significant as Non-Christian-on-Christian. We're hardly a homogenous group. (The same goes for Hinduism, Buddhism, and just about every other -ism, BTW, so the idea that "Hindus" won't have a problem with aliens is likely total nonsense.) It's intellectual laziness backed by raving bigotry when a non-believer lumps a Catholic with a Jehovah's Witness with a snake-handler. There is just as many key differences between them as there are between Perl and Java and Tcl/Tk hackers.
In reference to the news post itself, why is the Vatican speculating on alien civilization? We have less than adequate proof of alien life. We have no proof. When you look at the Hubble deep-sky photos, it's easy to say to yourself, "Gosh, all those galaxies, surely there's a civilization in at least one!" Who knows? I do know that there is less evidence for alien life than that Jesus walked the earth; but Jesus' existence is less than universally accepted among non-believers, while alien civilization is given serious thought.
Think about that--we have Old Testament prophecy concerning the coming of a Savior; we have New Testament witnessing to the fulfillment of those prophecies; we have new prophecies that the Savior will return with ultimate judgement. All of this is based on pretty reliable historical documents, and consistent over at least 4000 years. But we ignore this, and instead concentrate on wondering about alien civilizations and how they'll affect us? Even assuming that they do exist, what sense does it make to think they're even aware of us, or can ever reach us? So there's bug-eyed monsters in galaxy MCC-435PDQ, or whatever. Unless they have faster-than-light travel (another leap of faith that is bolder than the goofiest Christian Scientist praying for God to heal their kid's cancer), they will never get here. Generational ships and interstellar travel make fun science fiction, but the odds that ET is heading here because he's jonesing for Starbucks... well, it's just silly.
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Informative)
You are incorrect (Score:4, Informative)
You're wrong. Well, you're right if you read Paul and pretend that Jesus didn't say anything. Jesus and Paul don't agree on many things. Salvation is probably the biggest one. Consider this scripture:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Mat 25:31-46.
Here Jesus gathers up everyone in the world ("all the nations") and judges them. What is the criteria for judgement? Faith? Abosolutely not! Jesus doesn't even mention faith! The criteria is works and works alone.
That's it. Nothing else to it. It's in black and white in the Bible. You'd have to actually read it to know that, though.
Nice little dig. Unfortunately for you, I *do* read the Bible and know exactly how flawed it is and can detail and debate those flaws with any Christian on the planet. It is the work of humans, not the perfect work of a divine being.
There's no difficult list of rules, either.
Again, wrong. In order to get into heaven, you must do the following:
If you do those things, you go to heaven. Otherwise, you roast in hell. If you disagree with this, then you are disagreeing with Jesus. Your likely response is to argue, "That's what Jesus said, but that's not what he meant." Or perhaps you'll try, "You're taking things out of context." Maybe, if you're desparate, you'll try the "natural man" argument.
The majority of the New Testament is philosophical explanation of Jesus' words, and guidelines for behavior given by the early apostles, not the direct handing down of a list of rules by God (like the Ten Commandments).
Incorrect again. The majority of the New Testament is the creation of the "Christian" doctrine by
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people keep pushing the Ten Commandments? Half the problem with Judaism at the time was that it was "function" lacking "form". After all, what happens when there's a conflict between two of the Ten Commandments (your parents tell you to kill someone, for instance)? That's why Christ simplified it in the New Testament.
Even Judaism realized that later on - What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
(Yes, I know that Matthew 6 says that Christ said that the old rules still apply. Of course they do. They always will. The problem was that somehow people managed to miss the meaning of them - to God, they were obvious. To man, apparently it was too much.)
There's no difficult list of rules, either.
Yes there is - it's all through Matthew 5-7, though it boils down to the above - Love God above all others, and love your neighbor as yourself. That's it.
And those commandments are much easier to understand.
(So why are people pushing so hard for the Ten Commandments in courts? The Golden Rule is almost completely universal in almost all religions, and it has a lot less "wiggle room" - you're still a dork if you think about killing someone and don't do it, for instance)
Anyway, my point is that if you're pushing Christian doctrine, you shouldn't be pushing the Ten Commandments. You should be pushing the Golden Rule.
Note that I'm not commenting on what's necessary to get into heaven - that's a matter of belief in my eyes, though I firmly believe that any religion that believes that just saying the magic words "I believe in Jesus Christ" saves me, and the converse (not saying it means I can't be saved) is crazy - function without form. I can believe something without stating it. Heck, I can have faith and belief in something without knowing it.
But I'll stop there.
10 Commandments? Not a great list by me... (Score:4, Insightful)
Nope, not everyone says they're an excellent set of rules. I don't. I for one think they're just about on par with any other ancient code of behavior or law -- a mix of obviousness and muddled ambiguity handed down by yet another set of self-appointed spokespeople for God.
We had a brief thing with the 10 Commandments at my kids' Public school, actually. Supposedly the existing "Code of Conduct" was all too "PC" -- a term mostly used to attack things you disagree with nowadays -- and we had a few parents who asked why we couldn't also post the Commandments instead (or failing that, also). So, we got a good chance to examine the two lists.
The current behavior code was full of stuff like "Show respect for others" and various words about becoming a good student and a good citizen -- an emphasis on learning how to be a good person and how to participate in American society. There was an interesting strain of "Civics Lesson."
The Commandments, well... We don't actually have a problem with students murdering each other at our little school, and as far as coveting our neighbor's wives goes, there isn't much danger of it among the grade schoolers I happen to know, and I'm not sure an advanced warning was all that useful for them. As a public school, Noble doesn't encourage idols of any sort (that being one of the several reasons for which the idea of posting the Commandments themselves was voted down). And so on.
In short the Commandments frankly didn't seem relevant to my kids' school lives, or really to their lives -- surely not more than any other list of advice. Not nearly as relevant as the existing conduct code, anyway. Where they did apply, they were mostly staggeringly obvious (Don't kill anyone). They reflected social mores of 2000 years ago; the "neighbor's wife" thing is more about women as property than about being faithful to your own spouse -- note that it doesn't mention husbands or tell you not to fool around with single college girls if you're married. (How many wives did Solomon have, again?) Granted, this was the KJV translation, but then nobody asked us to post anything in Aramaic or Hebrew or Greek.
That's leaving alone the whole "We're all evil by default thing, which is just so very Christian and so very not useful in figuring out how to live a moral life. If God wants to blame me for my inherent flaws, I defer to God entirely -- but not to a human spokeperson for God. No - Thank - You.
So no -- brzzzt -- not everyone says they're such a great idea. I personally think you'd do much better reading a Cliff's Notes version of Kant, as far as leading a moral life.
Re:Or how about (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Interesting)
Spock: I fail to see the humor in that doctor.
Something even more amusing would be the discovery of aliens that take offence to the fact we don't believe in their god and start blowing us up. Oh wait, that happens right here...
Re:Or how about (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Or how about (Score:5, Informative)
This material's been done.
Since the calendars have been fucked around by the Conspiracy, 1998 hasn't arrived yet and the space critters from Planet X are yet to arrive (or "Bob" fucked up and transcribed 8991 as 1998, the year of the Rupture). However, once they do, they're only concern is to take this planet as the valuable resource it really is. They rescue all the Subgenii and whisk them off the planet to have sex with space goddesses with three pussies and fifteen tits, and destroy all the Pinks infesting
Earth.
Anyway, that's what it says in The Book of the Subgenius. You decide.
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
Praise Bob.
I doubt it (Score:5, Interesting)
As agents of free-will, the aliens are self-aware of good and evil, thus convertible to some terrestrial religion
Even if Aliens know the difference between right and wrong but they might not be able to understand the concept of god. Even if the did understand god I doubt you could convert a space faring race to any of our religions in their current form. It makes the earth too special and they'd probably wouldn't take kindly to that. I do suspect religion will transform in to a 'many games of chess' set-up. Adam and Eve was Earth's story. Kalcknor and voltak was Vulcan's story etc etc.
Simon
Re:I doubt it (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it that likely? (Score:4, Interesting)
They've never screwed up like we did and had the 'Fall' - so they have no concept of good or evil - in which case I doubt any meeting would be allowed to occur. My other problem with this is that the Bible, and the world around us, suggests that creation has also been affected by our mistake. There's far too much in nature that "isn't right" as people say.
Or:
They have had their own equivalent of the fall, and are just like us, the kind of Aliens you don't want to meet (think we'd avoid war in that scenario?). Considering the unique role of Jesus Christ, this would also be unlikely to be allowed by God.
I guess there's a third scenario too. The Bible isn't particularly specific on where angels and demons are (though they do business on Earth already). It is possible that some supposed UFO or alien encounters are a result of this. It's not entirely impossible, especially considering the apocalyptic sections of the Bible, that as part of some end times scenario, people beleive that we have encountered aliens (with the reality being more sinister).
Personally, the distance to our nearest stars, which may not even support life, looks suspiciously like a "buffer zone".
I'm sure that to those who do not beleive in any of the Bible, or in God, or Jesus, this sounds like nonsense. Hopefully its interesting though, and won't be modded down simply by those disagreeing. Also it would be interesting the different opinion that other beleivers have, not necessarily agreeing I'm sure!
Re:Is it that likely? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmm. So Jesus died for our sins but didn't die for their sins, and they didn't have their own Jesus either? This can only mean that god loves us so much more than he loves them.
I don't have to tell you what that kind of thinking usually leads to, do I? (hints: crusades, 9/11, war, torture, genocide, holocaust, terrorism)
Re:Is it that likely? (Score:5, Funny)
They'd have angels too. They're called Vorlons.
Re:More Christian musings! (Score:5, Informative)
What ignorant bullshit. Have you ever been to Spain? Have you ever seen the al-Hambra [greatbuildings.com]? The fact is that during the 7th through 10th Centuries, while Europe was little more than a stinking barabaric backwater, Islamic civization was very highly developed. They even had soap [gabarin.com]. During the Crusades, many Christian lords would try to get hold of Saracen physicians, because everyone knew that their medical methods were far superior to the European ones (which tended to consist of bleeding and wrapping the wound in dung).
It was Arab scholars who preserved much of the ancient Greek litterature. Without them we would have none of it. As for your statement about the library of Alexandria, you should read this [ehistory.com].
In addition, who do you think invented algebra? (a hint: it should be al-gebra). Most of the stars visble to the naked eye have Arabic names (Aldebaran, Almitak, Algol, Betelgeuse, Achernar etc etc.), meaning that they had highly developed (for the time) mathematics and astronomy.
I understand you're pissed about terrorism; who wouldn't be? But don't make the mistake of letting current events color your view of the past. It's bad enough the other way around.
Some Christian writers who pondered ET life (Score:5, Informative)
There is, of course, an existing tradition of Christian thought on extraterrestrial life.
C.S. Lewis' Cosmic Trilogy is probably the best known example: Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra took H.G. Wells as its point of departure and speculated upon other world in which the corruption and redemption of humanity and nature had followed different courses. (I never got far into Vol. 3, so I can't recommend it.) Probably both are in a library near you.
Going back a little farther, the poetry of the Catholic writer Alice Meynell (1847-1922) touched on a few of these themes, e.g. in 'Christ in the Universe':
Meynell's works are available online.
what if (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:what if (Score:3, Insightful)
Then they will be considered tools of the devil, and most earthbound religions will move us towards war with them.
To someone who believes religion forms the very essence of who they are. Most of the true believers can not be dissuaded from believing regardless of how strong your argument against God is. But ofcourse that is the whole point of faith, it is belief beyond reason.
Humanity hasn't stopped fighting religious wars
Re:Is it that likely? (Score:4, Insightful)
One Christ per planet? (Score:4, Insightful)
Evidence works both ways, you know.
Personally, I'm an atheist, but I acknowledge that my atheism is falsifiable.
It's easy to point at other people's beliefs and say "look! they are gonna have such a crisis of belief when we expand our circle of knowledge!" But intellectual honesty and humility compels me to consider: what kind of evidence would make me change my mind about atheism?
Re:I doubt it (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I doubt it (Score:5, Interesting)
Beyond the fact that Christians don't mind that Jesus was Jewish, there is other contrary evidence to that right here on earth... Christianity, fundamentally, is an extension to Judaism that says "you jews have gone off course and gotten things wrong." Islam says to Christianity, "well, BOTH you and the Jews have gone off course." In either case, the new religion on the block says to the old, "we're kind of like you, only you've messed up so much that God sent us to get the truth straight again."
Given this, it would truly be ironic if some aliens came down and proclaimed that they were true Christians (or Jews, or Buddists, or any other group you care to go with), but that the whole lot of us had gotten Christ, Moses, Mohammad or Buddha all wrong. They would basically be calling us heretics within our own religions. We've done that enough on or own, so why should we assume that somebody else wouldn't?
Re:I doubt it (Score:3, Interesting)
IIRC it goes something like this (it's a while since I've read any of his work so feel free to correct me):
1. There may be many worlds with created life
2. Each one of those worlds may not have fallen
3. For those that did (maybe all did) are there many saviours? One per planet? Or did the same story play out through the universe identically?
He also postulated the theory that our world is the only 'broken' one and even wrote a work of fictio
Re:I doubt it (Score:3, Insightful)
Speak for yourself. It's a silly thing to say anyway - as the most intelligent species in known existance, we are advanced creatures - it's all relative.
Wow. (Score:5, Insightful)
And it's nothing but a bunch of speculation about how to convert aliens to christianity.
My head is about to explode.
Good and evil (Score:5, Interesting)
In fact, I don't think there is anybody that considers himself 'evil', no matter what.
Re:Good and evil (Score:3, Funny)
A Google Search for the phrase "I am evil" yields 13,600 hits.
Re:Good and evil (Score:3, Interesting)
Now I know what Donald Rumsfeld is fond of in Spainish cultural heritage.
In fact, I don't think there is anybody that considers himself 'evil', no matter what.
Just check the science fiction & fantasy fandom. How many fans of "Star Wars" identify themselves with the Empire, Darth Vader, Moff Tarkin, Darth Maul, stormtroopers or "lesser evils" like Bobba Fett? How many "Harry Potter" fans
Will the aliens be (Score:4, Funny)
Advanced tech indistinguishable from magic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, if some advanced race landed on Earth, at least some cult/faction/group would characterize them as gods. What I find interesting is the practical viewpoint of the Vatican astronomer; new scientific discovery does not eliminate the need for a God, it just redefines the boundaries between humanity and the Other.
I also think that a chance encounter with aliens would certainly polarize the creationists. Did God create the Earth in seven days? OK, what about Gamma Epsilon 7? The Catholic Church has had many, many faults, (hello, Galileo) but IMO the modern Church is much more accepting of scientific theories than, say, fundamentalist Christians.
Re:Advanced tech indistinguishable from magic... (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Dolphin Communication (Score:5, Interesting)
Or a "straw man argument". Dolphins are not even aliens.
Whilst we are on the subject, this [bbc.co.uk] story has been shooting around the world; some very interesting infra-red footage [66.90.75.92] shot by the Mexican Airforce shows...make up your own mind. The footage was shot by drug interdiction aircraft on patrol for smugglers.
The UFO Thing (Score:4, Informative)
Here's an easy answer: Yes! They're Unidentified! They appear to be flying! They're objects!
I'm pretty sure that serves all the relevant criteria, right there.
Re:Dolphin Communication (Score:5, Insightful)
If we knew they were trying to tell us a message and they actually tried to get the message across, resources would be made free so we
could communicate with them..
Communication is 2 ways, you have to make sure
you understand what they say, and they must also
make an effort to be understood and repeat if
necessary..
What about cats ? Do they say we can't communicate with cats ?
Sorry, I do communicate with my cats.
I don't know everything they say, and they don't
understand everything I say (I hope
but if they want to send me a message
(need food/attention/to be alone/go outside/..)
they get the message to me.
And if they do something they shouldn't, I also
make sure they get the message..
So yes to me that's communicating.
And now I'm thinking about it, yes, some
people can communicate with dolphins.
Dolphin trainers do train them and I assume
they will also learn to interpret the reactions
of the dolphins. They won't understand everything,
and we speak our own languages to communicate
(dolphins won't speak and we won't squeek),
but there is some limited communication.
Re:Dolphin Communication (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm a linguist who spends a fair bit of time thinking about these sorts of things (I have a cat, of course!), and I just wanted to say that your post was very well-written and raises a few questions that I enjoy thinking about.
Your first point, that we haven't ever needed to communicate with dolphins and vice versa is a very good one that many professional linguists really don't get. Communication only comes about when it is an advantage to both parties.
One thing that is important here I think is to cle
Re:Dolphin Communication (Score:5, Insightful)
As an aside, if you think that cats are impressive, try owning a dog sometime. Both I and one of my brothers go to college, and yet when my mother says one of our names, the dog immediately stands up and wags her tail. This is after not seeing us for months. Yes, household pets are quite adept at recognizing words, but can they string those words together to form more elaborate concepts? I would argue no. In the example of my dog, she can relate names to individuals (when we are actually present, saying "go to [name]" will produce the correct response), but she can't understand that a name can refer to someone who is not present. She certainly understands "would you like to go for a walk?" but can't understand "walk" in any context that does not involve taking her outside. Likewise with your cat, would it be able to understand it if you said something else was good or bad? Probably not.
Re:Dolphin Communication (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Dolphin Communication (Score:3, Funny)
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Threat (Score:4, Interesting)
"A" Vatican astronomer? (Score:3, Funny)
Mistake No. 1 (Score:3, Funny)
Mistake No. 2
Thinking a dying Pantheon would interest already Illuminated Extra Terrestrials.
Well I do agree... (Score:4, Funny)
Mars Attacks (Score:3, Insightful)
One doesn't have to go back in history to see how worlds that collide have one side winning while the other side becomes victims of genocide. The warlike Caribs met the peaceful Arawaks in the Caribbean. The Caribs promptly enslaved and if I remember pretty well wiped them out. The "white man's" encounter with Native Americans led to the decimation of their culture and the annexation of their lands. We (white civilization) also introduced them to a form of biological warfare in the form of smallpox bacteria in blankets.
I personally hope that any alien life form will just pass us by. Why would their motives be any more benign than history has shown us time and time again by other peoples who in one way or another were superior? As far as SETI is concerned, it makes me cringe. My hope is that we keep a low profile and this blue marble is overlooked by any alien life form.
The O.P.'s Second Scenario is Misleading... (Score:3, Insightful)
When the Astronomer is talking about the second scenario, he sees the critical description of that scenario as that "there are other Words in other languages to other cultures". According to Christian Theology (as quoted by him from the opening lines of the book of John), the Word of God existed before humanity did. In other words, the aliens we encounter will have already experienced God, that "need to overcome evil in the world".
He doesn't necessarily think that he's going to be converting them in this scenario. As I see it, he thinks that they will have already encountered some form of Christianity, perhaps in a form completely different from the one seen here on Earth, and that Christians may be able to learn from their encounters with (what he believes is) the same God.
Atheism (Score:3, Insightful)
While we're on the subject... (Score:5, Informative)
See the video [thesandiegochannel.com]. Check out Wired [wired.com].
The video looks pretty convincing, and according to AP and Reuters, the Mexican military is standing behind the story.
The detailed information is at Rense [rense.com].
The interesting thing is that the Mexican plane was a drug interdiction aircraft with advanced radar and forward-looking infrared. It was designed precisely for the task of finding, intercepting and identifying unidentified aircraft, and it sounds like the data was handled in a way that would meet legal evidentiary standards (for obvious reasons: it was designed to convict drug smugglers).
Maybe the Vatican missed a fourth option: they're already here.
Re:While we're on the subject... (Score:5, Funny)
"This is historic news," Maussan told reporters. "Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country.... The armed forces don't perpetuate frauds."
Now that is humor.
Parallels (Score:5, Interesting)
The premise of the argument was, if ETs exist, there must be immortal ETs, if you subscribe to Roman Catholic religion. I.E. : The reason we are not immortal is that we failed the "test": we ate the apple!
Therefore, somewhere out there there must be people who passed it, or the test is "spurious".
Therefore there must be immortal aliens, or the test is invalid, and therefore the Redeemer is invalid.
That's just the argument in the book.
Arrogance (Score:3, Insightful)
For one thing, suggesting that we might convert aliens to Christianity is pretty much akin to suggesting that less well developed parts of the world might have had a chance to convert western explorers to their local animalist or totemist belief system. To take it even further, it might be like suggesting that an advanced primate like a Gorilla would have a chance of converting a human to its belief system (presumably based around sitting in a jungle doing nothing). Any race able to contact us or travel to get here is likely to be far more ethically and morally advanced that we are - it will, after all, have survived the equivalent of a nuclear age of technology without annihilating itself, and must therefore have a high degree of moral thinking.
Whoa whoa whoa! (Score:5, Informative)
He doesn't even IMPLY that.
What he SAYS is that if we can communicate intelligently with the aliens the question becomes, are religious concepts of right and wrong UNIVERSAL, and if so would their concepts match ours? He hopes so.
Later on, he states: "The other thing that happens is that each side learns from the other, inevitably. And the sense of acculturation continually goes on. It went on when the missionaries from Italy showed up in Ireland. Irish sensibilities became part of the Christian milieu. German sensibilities. Russian sensibilities. Every culture has added something to the mix, and brought something out of the mix. It's inevitable. You can't pretend that it's a one-way street. Even if you wanted it to be a one-way street, it wouldn't be."
He also answered the reverse question (Aliens converting us):
"We can't even convert ourselves"
For God's shake... (Score:3, Flamebait)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha...they are insane!
I would really like it if extra-terrestrials existed, only to make churches go crazy!
Some speculation on alien religion (Score:5, Insightful)
The theme is this - religions for small, racially similar groups of people are replaced by religions for larger, less racially similar groups of people. Religion helps justify this takeover.
Great religions often deal more with conversion than tribal religions.
I wonder if this trend will apply to extra-terrestrial religions. Will such religions tend to be converting religions? Will Extra terrestrials have eliminated the notion of 'race' from their religion and culture?
If so, will such a culture focus on genetically assimilating creatures along with religious and cultural conversion?
Considering how universal Nietzche's 'Will to Power' is likely to be, I sometimes wonder if aliens will be like Nazis, but with forcible genetic engineering rather than gas chambers.
Furthermore, since religion and nationalism have always been strongly linked, what kind of religion will a space-faring race have, considering that they will be the first intelligent creatures who aren't bounded by nations and territory as we know it.
I think living in space will have a profound impact on nationality, and thus religion, because it will eliminate the notion of fixed land, which is the basis of nationality. If sattelites can become self-supporting it will allow people to redefine how they organize themselves and choose citizenship.
Re:Some speculation on alien religion (Score:4, Informative)
(the Aiwa (sp?) in Japan were mostly replaced by the Japanese, the Hopi were replaced by Christians. Muslims spread over N. Africa replacing whatever proto-voodo gods were native there (I don't know) etc.)
1. The Ainu.
2. There are still Hopi. Also, a lot of Native Americans were converted to Christianity. A LOT. Nowhere near as many as were wiped out by disease (often the disease wave moved slightly ahead of the colonization wave, carried by explorers and native American travelers who had contact with colonizers), or killed in conflict with colonizers (or internecine conflicts aggravated by the presence of colonizers), and not all of them, but enough to make it an interesting case study for first contact situations.
3. In most areas, Islam displaced modern religions, not "proto-Voodoo". North Africa was basically Christian, with some outlying "pagan" areas (what we would call polytheists): for instance, keep in mind that St. Augustine lived in Carthage in what today is Tunisia. The city of Cyrene in what is today Libya was an important Greek city with a Christian population. The Egyptians were mostly Christians - today we call the "indigenous" Egyptians Copts (Boutros-Boutros Ghali, for instance), and they are Christians. There were various other traditional religions in trans-Saharan Africa (e.g., in what is now Nigeria) that might have contributed to the cultural background of Santeria, but they weren't as simple as many outside observers would imagine.
In Arabia (don't call it Saudi Arabia until the 20th century) and Mesopotamia (modern Iraq), you've got Christians and Zoroastrians as well as "pagans," in Bactria (Afghanistan) you've got Buddhists, in India you have mostly Hindus with some Buddhists, in Persia you have mostly Zoroastrians, and in Russia (before the Horde) you have various kinds of animists. In China you have Confucianists, Taoists, Buddhists, Nestorian Christians, and a bunch of other religious communities before Islam is introduced (I imagine it reached China through "evangelism" before the Khanate); only the first three had significant effects after the Yuan. (Indeed, I think the Yuan basically "converted" - this is not as meaningful a term outside Western religions as it is within - to Confucianism, but I'm no expert on Chinese history.
I think the concept of a nation being tied to a territory may be original and tribal, but in modern times it is an outgrowth of "modern" European nation-state theory, and is already under assault. Yes, I think that interplanetary (and if possible interstellar) colonization will have dramatic effects on nationality and religion, and these are interesting speculations; but keep in mind that ethnicity and religion (which often go hand in hand) are rather inertial concepts, and are quite capable of surviving even as great a shock as extraterrestrial contact or interstellar diaspora.
What If? (Score:5, Funny)
There's much dismissal of the notion of aliens taking our religion seriously. And I tend to agree. But it does make for a fun "what if" scenario.
What if the aliens did take to our religious beliefs? What if the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons did manage to convert them? Either scenario would be particularly entertaining, since presumably the aliens would then undertake the same activities as the human Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons on Earth, to the limits that their biologies would allow. Hell, I'd look forward to them coming to my door. I would be able to forgive all the other shortcomings of the 'future' (lack of flying cars, rocketpacks, etc.) if every now I could open my door to find a couple of small grey aliens in white shirts and black ties, earnest looks on their faces, asking me about my thoughts on God. I'd still slam the door in their faces, of course, but I'd have a little "Well, whaddya know?" smile on my face as I did so.
Indeed, conversion to any branch of Christianity would provide endless entertainment, since we would have yet another party laying claim to Jerusalem as the holiest city. Or perhaps we could one day look forward to a "Passion" remake, complete with an alien Jesus dragging the cross? I wonder, would the Christian aliens still nurse a mild resentment of the Jews? Or would aliens be more likely to become Jews themselves, able to accept the idea of God but not a human Messiah? Man, would that ever get some people going. Osama bin Laden would just shit himself.
Of course, they may not go for a mainstream religion. Maybe they'll become convinced that the ultimate arbiter of religious truth is some dude leading a cult somewhere in the wilds of Montana. Maybe they'd all become Branch Davidians, or some equivalent thereof.
Mind you, the alternative to us converting them is even more fun. I personally would go to church--or whatever you would call it--every week, if the purpose were to worship some whacked-out alien god. All hail the Great Slug of the Cosmos, perhaps. Hell, I'll even worship Kah'less if I get to play with a Bat'leth.
Thinking about this sort of stuff is more fun than a box full of puppies.
alien moral standards (Score:3, Insightful)
Odds are that if they are aware of good and evil and advanced enough to be space-faring then they will probably have higher moral standards than anything christianity has to provide...
High moral standards are what makes cooperation possible. Tolerance of differences is probably neccesary, and that certainly isn't taught by christianity.
Or maybe im just projecting my own standards onto aliens... but the christian concept of moral seems to be pretty low compared to what humanism can provide.
Never mind Religion (Score:4, Interesting)
Forget about religion, how about cultural assimilation?
Read this exerpt from the Brookings report from 1960 comissioned from NASA about finding extraterrestrial life, it will make you think twice. Perhaps this is why the goverment is hiding the truth that "they" are already here. Oh and don't forget to see that Mexico video, just another iron in the fire so to speak.
--
Proposed Studies On The Implications Of
Peaceful Space Activities For Human Affairs
By
Brookings Institution, 1960
Report To The 87th Congress, Union Calendar 79
Report Number 242
For
National Aeronautics And Space Administration
The general public
1.As with other matters not central to day-to-day living, the
public, considered as a whole, is probably only selectively
attentive to and knowledgeable about space activities. The
relationship between the impact of events on indifferent or only
occasionally interested people and their attitudes and values is
but partly understood and needs further study.
2.It has been alleged that the "public" is optimistic about
space activities. If this is so and if the optimism is
widespread, the present support it generates for the space
program may not be lasting if the difficulties inherent in space
efforts have not been appreciated enough to make the failure of
specific projects understandable. The resulting disillusionment
may be a serious factor in reducing public support as space
efforts become more grandiose, the consequences of payoff more
exciting, and the losses from failure more dramatic. On the other
hand, this optimism, if it exists, may produce a state of mind
tolerant of failures. The factors affecting optimism, realism,
and tolerance of frustration need more study as an aid in
preparing for this situation. The roles of the promoter spokesman
and the mass media in encouraging expectations of great and
imminent accomplishments are integral to this problem area and
would benefit from research.
3.The conviction that space activities will broaden man's
horizons are presently based on the perspectives and special
interests of a relatively few people in western societies. The
claim may be justified, but there is need for research to assist
understanding of the conditions under which innovations broaden
or narrow perspectives in various cultures. For example,
sufficient emphasis on space as the proper expression of man's
highest aspirations may result in the evolution of a broadly
based belief that this is so. But whether or not this is likely
to be the case cannot now be decided in view of our limited
understanding of how new ideas disseminate through societies. If
and as horizons were broadened as a result of space activities,
other aspirations would compete with them for attention and
resources, and continuous study would be required to evaluate the
appropriate position of space in this competition.
4.Though intelligent or semi-intelligent life conceivably
exists elsewhere in our solar system, if intelligent
extraterrestrial life is discovered in the next twenty years, it
will very probably be by radio telescope from other solar
systems. Evidences of its existence might also be found in
artifacts left on the moon or other planets. The consequences for
attitudes and values are unpredictable, but would vary profoundly
in different cultures and between groups within complex
societies; a crucial factor would be the nature of the
communication between us and the other beings. Whether or not
earth would be inspired to an all-out space effort by such a
discovery is moot: societies sure of their own place in the
universe have disintegrated when confronted by a superior
society, and others have survived even though changed. Clearly,
the better we can come to understand the factors involved i
God does not die if we find ET's. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is NO REASON whatsoever to believe that Earth is the only creation, or even this universe. I happen to be Roman Catholic. The discovery of aliens would not shake my religious foundation one bit.
I see science not as competition for religion, but as complimentary. When we discover how things work, we discover more about God.
I have no problem accepting evolution as the PROCEESS that was used, for example.
I don't like the extremists on either side on this debate. On one side, you have the atheists, who think science can replace religion. Then, on the other side, you religious nutcases who think the Earth is only 5,000 years old, who scream BLASPHEMY! at you when you mention Mars is closer than it's been in 600,000 years.
But those types of nutcases aren't Roman Catholic, but they are a lot of my neighbors here in Easern Kentucky
We should be seeking to discover other life for many reasons, none of which have to do with proving or disproving God. Either task is impossible, BTW.
In the words of Sagan, "the evidence is crummy..." (Score:3, Insightful)
How many aliens can fit on the head of a pin? (Score:4, Interesting)
...This story is a TROLL.
I am reminded of a story by Arthur C. Clarke. Two IBM programmers are brought out to Sri Lanka to work in a monastery at the top of a mountain. The monks believe that if all the nearly infinite names of God are recited, the universe will come to an end. Their job is to write a program that will be run on a mainframe at the monastery to try and generate all those names. Someone out there probably knows the name of this short story.
BTW, one of the posts near the top of this discussion is correct. The Roman Catholic Church (my flavor of Christianity) is now very much at ease with the results of all the scientific discoveries of the past few centuries. One of our fundamentalist friends is a "Young Earth Creationist". Sorry, but I gotta laugh when told that humans and dinosaurs walked the Earth together. All the animals were vegetarians (even T-Rex) until Adam and Eve shared that apple/pomegranate. Huh?
Dear Fellow Slashdotters, most of the world's religions are fine with scientific discovery. The great "undiscovered country" out there is the focus of most religions. What are humans capable of when their mind, body and spirit are all completely aligned on their spritual "North Star"? What matters is not material things but things like love, hope, joy, justice and so on. Mother Teresa (already beatified, now awaiting canonization- Sainthood. Similar to a certification from Verisign finally completing for the tech-obsessed) spoke of the spiritual poverty of Americans as compared with the spiritual wealth of the poor of Calcutta. Religion does not need these routine bashings on Slashdot. I have found most of it is good for helping keep the neighbor's kids from trying to break into my house. Without it, I am certain that mere Earthly laws and law enforcement will leave us much poorer in every way. Since the tyranny of the ACLU and atheists was unleashed by the Warren Court, we have seen what happens when God is driven out of America at every turn. As a lifelong historian, I truly believe that America was better off when it wasn't trying to force religion out of the public sphere at every turn. I would be fine with seeing crosses, stars of David, crescents, and Buddha statues all over America. Let the government referee the occasional conflict instead of suppressing them unevenly which is the current game. Studying anything BUT our major legacy of faith, Christianity, is fine for public educational facilities now.(e.g. universities down to elementary shcools) The anti-Chrisitan crowd that has been extending its reach through government is totally fine with promoting every religion but Chrisitanity. The Founding Fathers wisely chose not to establish state religions, (unlike Europe where tax dollars go straight to state religions) but their separation of Church and State was trying to protect BOTH. The protection of the State should not come at the expense of one particular practice of faith. If it must be paid, it should be paid evenly by Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and so on. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Everyone has made a religious choice since exposure to religion is inescapable. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. -Rush
On Communication (Score:4, Insightful)
So if an alien species looks like us (has a mouth that serves respiratory and ingestion functions, a tongue) they probably evolved in similar circumstances and therefore have a basis for understanding.
But an incredibly different species could be extremely intelligent but we wouldn't be able to communicate (verbally, maybe even electronically) with them because their medium for thought transmission evolved in a completely different manner
Imagine a species that used special appendages to communicate, kind of like sign language. We wouldn't know where to begin because we don't have those appendages, and it would look like a bunch of flailing to us.
Dr. Consolmagno (Score:4, Funny)
he studies meteorites. I wonder what research notes look like:
Observed high proportion of Carbon to Iron in meteor type X.
Question: Why is this so?
Answer: God made it that way.
Next question...
The problem of the 'plurality of worlds' (Score:4, Informative)
I was gratified to receive also several letters from theologians who knew the present Church position on the problem of the 'plurality of worlds', as most of my correspondents obviously did not
I will quote Mr Gerald Heard, who has summarized the position best of all:
If there are many planets inhabited by sentient creatures, as most astronomers (including Jesuits) now suspect, then each one of such planets (solar or non-solar) must fall into one of three categories:
(a) Inhabited by sentient creatures, but without souls; so to be treated with compassion but extra-evangelically.
(b) Inhabited by sentient creatures with fallen souls, through an original but not inevitable ancetral sin; so to be evangelized with urgent missionary charity.
(c) Inhabited by sentient soul-endowed creatures that have not fallen, who therefore
(1) inhabit an unfallen, sinless paradisal world;
(2) who therefore we must contact not to propagandize, but in order that we may learn from them the conditions (about which we can only speculate) of creatures living in perpetual grace, endowed with all the virtues in perfection, and both immortal and in complete happiness for always possessed of and with the knowledge of God.
Of course, the aliens that are the subject of Blish's book fall into none of these scenarios...
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:mod as flamebait (Score:3, Informative)
FYI, "flamebait" isn't a synonym for "I disagree".
Re:WTF? (Score:3, Insightful)
there's exactly as much solid scientific evidence for extraterrestrial life as there is for the existence of God, which is to say there's absolutely none
Searching for extra terrestrial life is a numbers game, it's all about odds. We know life can start on a suitable planet, cause here we are. Then comes the unknown factors.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Illogical, Captain. S is huge, but every other value is completely unknown. It's quite possible that L and I are so small that intelligence arose only once in the whole universe. Just because we're here doesn't mean that anyone else is.
Re:WTF? (Score:3, Insightful)
If there has to be a creator for you to exist, then surely the creator must have a creator? Or does your logic only extend as far as proving what you want to prove? Who made god?
We can explain the existance of man without having to resort to a creator.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, the early church hit this one. Jesus was god made jewish man. How are you going to impress a Roman with `god became a Jew' if he doesn't care about that small tribe on the edge of empire. There was a significant shift when they turned from a jewish messianic cult into a catholic one. This is the cause of all the bickerring about circumcision and so on -- the greek and roman worlds found snipping bits of their children or themselves barbaric.
So, one thing which might happen to the monotheistic religions on contact with an ET is that they mutate into a universallist outlook. The big question then being whether the history on Earth is unique -- eg did Jesus death save the Qxthipus of Raffita VII, was Mohamed the last ever prophet, or just the final prophet for earth?
However, all this is probably moot. The religions of Earth are so heavily rooted in human psychology that they are unlikely to have any point of application to an alien intelligence.
Re:I respectfully disagree. (Score:3, Troll)
Not to mention that Christianity, as far as I know, at least, was the original anti-competitive embrace and extend monopoly. ;)
But if I were you, and I'm not, I wouldn't worry so much about offending people. Fuck 'em. Why is it concerned acceptable in modern society to preach about God, but questioning God is so offensive? Fuck that. Fuck God, for that matter. Fuck Jesus, fuck 'em all. Moses was a twerp, the Pharoah was just a pussy to give in to that guy (oh wait a minute, he never gave in, did he?
Re: Catastrophic (Score:5, Insightful)
> The discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence would be catastrophic for organized religion. What if they have the exact same religion as one of the ones on Earth? Then it must be the correct one, and there's no such thing as faith anymore, and at least 80% of the Earth's population was wrong all along. What if they DON'T share any of our religions? Then ALL of ours must be wrong.
Europeans didn't find that problematic the last time they discovered a New World.
Religions tend to be very conservative about their beliefs, but they've always shown an ability to adapt when the chips are down. Encounters with extraterrestrials won't be any different.
Re:Catastrophic (Score:4, Interesting)
Why? I don't follow this reasoning. After all, no one in the Americas shared any religions with people from Europe, but that doesn't imply that no European or Native American religion is true. Lack of agreement between alien cultures does not imply falsehood.
Re:Catastrophic (Score:4, Insightful)
The spiritual truths in all Earth's religions are basically the same:
1. There is a [higher being/a collective of higher beings/a higher force] which must be [revered/worshipped/honored].
2. You should be nice to people who profess to hold the same spiritual belief as you.
3. People who do not fall in the previous category are [doomed/below your standing/misguided] and should be [ignored/converted/killed].
Personally, I don't see how any religion could exist that does not hold these principles. Principle 1 must hold, otherwise it's no religion. Principle 2 must hold, because religions must bind people into groups or they will perish. Principle 3 must hold, because if someone believes his religion does not make him superior to others, he will convert to something that makes him feel better.
So, if anything, finding an alien religion that holds the same principles only shows that the aliens have the same sociological and psychological make-up as humans. It says nothing about the existence of God.
Actually, I think that if space-faring aliens believe in God, they will probably have a better concept of God than we do, and it is likely to be closer to the truth.
Re:Ninnle has you ! (Score:5, Interesting)
Historically, there have been many pogroms and a lot of anti-sematism which stemmed from the notion that 'the Jews killed Jesus' and should collectivly be punished for it till they convert.
Re:Ninnle has you ! (Score:3, Interesting)
Should I say "The Christians were responsible for killing Jews during the Holocaust" because some Christians were involved in it. And should I conclude from this that all Christians for all time are murderers until they change their religion? The notion is absurd.
Re:Ninnle has you ! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:science and religion (Score:3, Insightful)
Most scientists feel that religion and science are two different worlds. They can't be in conflict. Science is about using facts and the force of reasoning to build an objective world-view. Religion is about using belief to build a subjective world-view, and "believing" is equal to "accepting without a shred of objective proof". These two approaches to building a wi
Re:science and religion (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not a misconception. Either the universe is ruled by natural laws or by invisible old guy(s) in the sky. No two ways about it. And despite centuries of persecution of sciencists by religion, its religion, rather than science that now wants a truce -- quite understandably, considering that (at least in the West), science has religion up against the ropes and is