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Biotech Science

Scotts Testing Genetically Modified Grass 454

Caseyscrib writes "There is an article on Yahoo! News that talks about how Scotts is testing a genetically modified version of creeping bentgrass, popular on golf course greens and fairways, that will be resistant to a common weed-killing chemical. Environmentalists have long opposed bioengineered crops of any kind, and fear that '...if it was to escape onto public land, we wouldn't know how to control it.' It is now in the final stages of approval."
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Scotts Testing Genetically Modified Grass

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  • by dolo666 ( 195584 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:49PM (#8825056) Journal
    Scotts makes toilet paper, not grass. WTF??? I don't know if I want my grass messed with, guys. Maui Wowie [overgrow.com] made by a toilet paper company? What will they think of next? I hope they don't want me to wipe my ass with it...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:50PM (#8825066)
    welcome our new genetically engineered creeping bentgrass overlords.
  • How to control it... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nuclear305 ( 674185 ) * on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:50PM (#8825067)
    I can think of several ways of controlling such grass.

    1) Pour gas, light match
    2) Use barriers that most people already use to stop plant growth.
    3) Shovel.

    In all seriousness, sounds like those afraid of controlling it are just spreading FUD. If we can modify grass to resist weed killer, who says we can't also make it vulnerable to something environmentally friendly like cooking oil?
    • by cdrudge ( 68377 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:56PM (#8825107) Homepage
      Until an entire field is covered in it...then several...then a large township...etc. It's not a problem to kill a golf course green with a shovel or burning it, but are you going to do the same with fields and larger?

      Look up the history of Kudzu [ua.edu] for an example of something that once was thought of a great idea, now everyone hates it.
      • by SEWilco ( 27983 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:26PM (#8825331) Journal
        Oh, the horror!
        Entire towns covered with perfect grass!
        Golfers playing through neighborhoods!
        Geese in every front yard and in every pot!
        • by WIAKywbfatw ( 307557 ) on Sunday April 11, 2004 @12:20AM (#8828736) Journal
          Well, you might jest but what happens when this seed is blown over agricultural land? How will a farmer kill off this weed (weed being what you call any unwanted plant growth) without killing his crop?

          Even if the GM grass can be killed with a specific pesticide that only kills off that variety of GM grass that's not a practical solution: what are you going to do about all the other GM varieties that exist: spray once for each specific variety? How does a farmer easily tell which variety has spread onto his land in the first place?

          And what about organic farmers who livelyhoods depend on the use of no artificial chemicals whatsoever? GM infestation can destroy their businesses faster than you can imagine.

          These and other concerns haven't been properly addressed by Monsanto, etc in their rush to make a profit at any cost.
    • by pete6677 ( 681676 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:59PM (#8825145)
      I totally agree. It seems like most people who claim to oppose genetic modification of foods, plants, etc. are basing their views mostly on fears rather than any solid evidence. This is obvious by their use of terms like "Frankenfoods". I think that modified food products should be thoroughly tested before being released into the market to make sure there are no adverse effects, but people need to remember that plant modification is nothing new. Farmers have been cross breeding plants of different DNA strains for thousands of years in order to achieve desirable properties such as resistance to insects. Genetic engineering is for the most part a more precise way to do this.
    • by KDan ( 90353 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:00PM (#8825155) Homepage
      2) Use barriers that most people already use to stop plant growth.

      Yes, that's really worked with the rabbits in australia. Wonder how that's gonna work with plants whose seeds are carried by the wind? Hmm...

      Daniel
      • Nets. (Score:4, Funny)

        by lawpoop ( 604919 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @02:57PM (#8825874) Homepage Journal
        Giant nets all over the place. Actually, while we're at it, why not just set up hamster-like tubing connecting major cities? That way we don't have to deal with other allergens, cold weather, sunlight, wind, rain, etc.

        Skinner: "Well, I was wrong; the lizards are a godsend."
        Lisa: "But isn't that a bit shortsited? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?"
        Skinner: "No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards."
        Lisa: "But aren't the snakes even worse?"
        Skinner: "Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat."
        Lisa: "But then we're stuck with gorillas!"
        Skinner: "No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death."

    • Killing it is easy... identifying it is the problem I believe they are referring to. Of the millions of blades of grass in your yard, how would you identify the ones that may have been bioengineered?
    • by Anonymous Coward
      4) Find dogs, get dogs to pee on grass.

      I'm with you on this one. The environmentalists seem to be just spreading FUD. Although the article doesn't say how the grass was modified. It's one thing if it was spliced with polar-bear genes, it's another if it was spliced with genes from an already-resistant plant. Without details, this just sounds like hype.
    • Tell that to the people being overrun by kudzu [ua.edu].
      Burn it, it grows back. Salt the earth, it grows back. Spray herbicide, it grows faster! The only way to get rid of it is to dig up and destroy every single root.
    • Well, one example: (Score:4, Informative)

      by mao che minh ( 611166 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:05PM (#8825200) Journal
      You would think that a little thing like a bull frog would be able to be easily controlled also. They were introduced them into some parts of Texas and Arizona almost a hundred years ago to act as game, and even food for cowboys. Considering that there wasn't/isn't many marshlands in the areas that they were introduced into, you would figure that they could be easily contained and controlled, right?

      Well, suddenly the bull frogs started turning up in wet areas FAR from where they were originally introduced. No one knew that they could cover such long distances without water. Then they started eating all of the local wildlife that was smaller than themsevles: tarantulas, birds, other species of frogs, fish, etc.

      1. Just build fences and keep them out, right? Wrong, the bull frogs learned to climb over the fences.

      2.Posion them? How, when the poison will kill everything else too?

      3. Bioengineer a poison that only affects bull frogs? On whom's dime, the taxpayers?

      4. Kill them all with spears, guns, knives, and arrows? Tried that, night after night by dozens of volunteers: virtually no effect, the population held strong as ever.

      But back where the bullfrogs came from, in the bayous of Louisiana, the alligators and birds that evolved alongside the frogs have no problem keeping their population in check.

      Do you get the logisitical issue(s) of introducing new species into new environments (manmade or otherwise)? It is never easy to control.

    • by lars_stefan_axelsson ( 236283 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:07PM (#8825212) Homepage
      In all seriousness, sounds like those afraid of controlling it are just spreading FUD.

      Well, the real reason to be sceptical to Monsanto inserting genes that resist 2,4-TD (RoundUp, aka Agent Orange) is that it has a habit of spreading to closely related plants. In tests in Italy (more than ten years ago now) this gene successfully transferred from Rape to Wild Turnip, which is a mother of a weed to get rid of. There are several grasses that we wouldn't want to aquire this gene. (Google e.g. "wild turnip gene resistance")

      As a gene resisting herbicides is a very desirable gene to have (if you happen to be a weed), you can bet your sweet ass that's it's only a matter of time before you've created the mother of all weeds. And no, burning/barriers/diging won't fix the problem.

      In this case an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

      • More FUD (Score:5, Informative)

        by Momomoto ( 118483 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:27PM (#8825346) Homepage
        Repeat after me: Agent Orange is in no way related to RoundUp.

        Agent Orange is a mixture of 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid and 2,4 dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (reference [wikipedia.org]).

        RoundUp is glyphosate: N-(phosphonomethyl) glycine (reference 1 [wikipedia.org], reference 2 [wikipedia.org]).
      • by TitaniumFox ( 467977 ) * on Saturday April 10, 2004 @02:25PM (#8825719) Journal
        You can be mindful of what corporations are currently doing, but your complete lack of background knowledge makes your beliefs dangerous.

        Monsanto didn't insert a gene that resists glyphosate (RoundUp), because their plant is a loss-of-function mutant. They did it through insertional mutation, using either forward (sequence not known) or reverse (sequence known) genetics methods. They isolated a mutant that was resistant to glyphosate and clapped their hands and cheered.

        RoundUp Ready beans have a mutation in the gene, making the resulting enzyme product non-active. In other words, they changed that part of the enzyme to be a NOP, halting the metabolism of glyphosate into something that is lethal to the plant.

        Agent Orange has nothing to do with RoundUp, and others have addressed that.
    • by Theatetus ( 521747 ) * on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:14PM (#8825261) Journal
      In all seriousness, sounds like those afraid of controlling it are just spreading FUD.

      Perhaps, but unlike SCO or MS FUD, this FUD has a basis in reality, or at least the Uncertainty and Doubt portions do: We are not certain what the environmental effects of this grass will be. We are not certain how other organisms will interact with it. We are not certain what large-scale effects on the ecosystem (ie, us) will have. Ecosystems are terribly, terribly complex and grass is a crucial part of them.

      If we can modify grass to resist weed killer, who says we can't also make it vulnerable to something environmentally friendly like cooking oil?

      Because it's not that simple. They changed a gene that turns off sensitivity to a specific chemical in the weed killer. We don't know what else that gene change did. We don't know how it affects the grass's metabolism (or whatever you call the plant version of metabolism).

      To put it in computer geek terms: it's like deciding to change a couple of variables and functions in your C library and recompiling, only imagine a C library that's about a trillion times more complex than libc. Could it work fine? Yes. Could it destroy your entire system? Doubtful, but conceivable. Could it have unforseen side effects? Almost certainly. Would you do it without large-scale, intensive testing? No. Would you do it without a damn good reason? Definitely not.

      We haven't done the testing on this because we can't create a control ecosystem. And as much as I love golf, it doesn't count as a "damn good reason".

      • by rebelcool ( 247749 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @02:16PM (#8825664)
        You know, I find it incredibly silly a bunch of people think they know everyting about everything (including genetics) because they know some computer programming. The biologists who've worked on this for years know far, far more than some dimwit on slashdot.

        It's as if a secretary or a mechanic said AI researchers should stop researching AI because they saw the matrix and were afraid of what it could lead to. Leave the science to the scientists and the biologists who've made it their life work to ensure its safe, viable, and benefits the world.
        • by Atanamis ( 236193 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @03:19PM (#8825984)
          I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion. You are correct that there are experts that know far more about the subject than we do. You are also correct about the AI researcher knowing more about AI than the secretary or mechanic. However, in both cases I think that the non-expert has a right to consider the possible consequences of a technology, and determine whether they feel the dangers outweigh the benefits.

          There are always dangers to implementing a new technology, particularly one that may be difficult to purge if its consequences are undesirable. While I support the cautious use of genetically engineered plants, there is a real concern of loosing control of those plants if we are not careful.

          The analogy to making changes to a C library are quite valid. When we make substantial changes to any system, we need to be careful to have a pretty good idea what the side effects might be. This is true of new code, of new medications, and of introducing new plants to an ecosystem. We shouldn't let fear of the unknown paralyse us, but neither should we dive headlong into unknown waters without first taking some precautions.
        • by sjbrown ( 9382 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @03:34PM (#8826068) Homepage
          So, should I leave public policy to the politicians and corporate lobbyists? I mean, they're the ones paid to do the job right? I, a mere layman, certainly have no place questioning their decisions.

          And yes, I believe this is a public policy issue. If it were talking about the theoretical possibility of creating this grass in a laboratory, then I would agree with you. Leave it to the scientists. But this is about releasing a new species (or variant, whatever) into the wild, and it's about letting golf courses being able to carpet-bomb the entire area with pesticide.

          • We are talking about herbicide resistant grasses.

            So here's the worst case scenario:

            "AIIIIEEEE!! My Roundup isn't working! We're all doomed! Now I will have to weed by hand! (Runs away in fear)"

            Call me when they make a lawnmower resistant grass. Then I'll panic.
        • Leave the science to the scientists and the biologists who've made it their life work to ensure its safe, viable, and benefits the world.

          You seem to missing an important point here. The scientists and biologists developing these new variants are being paid by corporate entities whose purpose is to reap as much profit as possible from this kind of research. In the absence of FDA-like regulations on GM plant life, it is not inconceivable that some non-scientist in a management position may decide that a
    • 1) Pour gas, light match
      Geez, if it takes a scorched earth policy to kill it off, I'd rather not plant it in the first place.

      It's like one of those horror movies where they nuke a large city to ward off the invaders (and I warn you, in the movies it never, ever works.)

    • by rark ( 15224 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:43PM (#8825456)
      No, it's unfortunately not FUD. Sure, we *could* make it vunerable to cooking oil (well, I don't know that cooking oil is a good example, but we certainly could make it vunerable to other chemicals) but unless it's profitable, we won't.

      We can also make plants that don't produce viable seed, and we do so because it is profitable.

      However, we don't make plants that don't produce pollen. It's more profitable not to. If we did, companies couldn't sue people whose plants were accidently pollinated by GM plants for using GM technology without paying licensing fees.

      It's sort of like people being sued for including source code from other projects without paying fees (or otherwise violating license agreements)...if bits of source code just randomly wandered about and inserted themselves into other programs without human help.

      This is already happening with other crops, it's not a theoretical problem. I don't particularly see why this couldn't possibly happen with this grass, either.

      Legislation could help this, but doesn't stop the environmental problems. The issue isn't killing these plants (in which case your ideas would work pretty well) but in killing these plants without killing all the other plants around them.

    • by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @02:03PM (#8825588) Journal
      Let college students play golf on it. That's the fastest way I know to tear up golf course fairways...

  • by badriram ( 699489 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:50PM (#8825068)
    What do you do, lie on to for a while, and seee if tries to swallow you
  • The horror! (Score:5, Funny)

    by yotto ( 590067 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:52PM (#8825084) Homepage
    Oh no! How are we going to stop the smooth, soft, vibrant grass that they use on golf courses from overtaking our lawns!?
    Please. I beg you. Dump some of this on my lawn.
  • Cool (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Grant29 ( 701796 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:52PM (#8825085) Homepage
    I'm all for getting a grass strain that will also work in my yard. I'd perfer a short grass that didn't need much mowing and also have weed prevention. That seems like it would be a hot seller, but then again Scotts also sells seed, fertilizers, weed products, etc. I have a feeling that they wouldn't want it to be availiable to the common man. If they did, they'd probably charge an arm and a leg for it.

    --
    Retail Retreat [retailretreat.com]
    • Re:Cool (Score:2, Insightful)

      by enkafan ( 604078 )
      I think you'd still need to buy fertilizer and weed killer, it's just that the grass would be immune to the weed killer.

      So Scott's can keep selling their ferilizer, and push their weed killer even harder "which has been tested and approved for Scott's mutant grass (tm)" to the average person.
    • Re:Cool (Score:3, Interesting)

      by stecoop ( 759508 ) *
      they'd probably charge an arm and a leg for it

      If the cost was too prohibitive for the common man than there might be market to grow and sell the seeds in the third tier market. I wonder how long it would take for RIAA to beat down your door?
    • You continue to kill the weeds with a herbicide (roundup), but the grass is resistant to that particular herbicide and so does not die.

      It means that you can go off on a spraying spree and not have to worry about killing the grass. i.e. You buy and spray *more* weedkiller.

  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:55PM (#8825100) Homepage
    I'm suprised this stuff isn't copy-protected, using either hybridization or the "terminator gene". Then you'd have to buy new grass seed every year.

    If this stuff spreads off the golf course, does the maker come after you for a patent violation?

    • If this stuff spreads off the golf course, does the maker come after you for a patent violation?

      They are copying SCO's business plan: give it away freely and then claim IP rights on it later.
    • It's happened (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:22PM (#8825306)
      A Saskatchewan farmer has been taken to court by Monsanto because his fields had some of their genetically modified canola. The canola seems to have blown in from neighbors fields and ditches. The case has gone to the Supreme Court of Canada but I haven't heard the outcome.

      --RANT-- Monsanto makes SCO look like Boy Scouts. The sad thing is that lots of farmers support them and this makes them harder to fight. Let's put it this way; I wouldn't drink the milk in Florida because of the (Monsanto) drugs that get into it. Fining Monsanto has about the same effect as fining Microsoft.--/RANT--

      http://www.percyschmeiser.com/
    • the "terminator gene".

      I'm uneducated in genetics, so I'll just assume that's a gene that gives something cybernetic killing capabilities. AWESOME.
    • If history is any guide, it is protected, but not like you'd think.

      Essentially, it sounds like Scotts is producing a "roundup ready" (rr) grass.

      The scam works like this: Monsanto owns patents on the most widely used herbicide in the world (roundup). They also own patents on Roundup Ready crops (wheat, soybeans, canola...). They sell the seeds to farmers who can now safely spray their crops to keep the weeds down.

      So lets say you own the farm next to a RR field and grow the same crop (but not a monsanto
  • by utahjazz ( 177190 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:55PM (#8825102)
    ...testing a genetically modified ... creeping ... resistant to killing ... fear that ... if it was to escape ... we wouldn't know how to control it

    Shouldn't this be in the games section?
  • by RonVNX ( 55322 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:56PM (#8825104)
    Not to trivialize the issue of bioengineered crops, but to focus on it misses what's probably the more important point... this particular "crop" is designed to allow even more use of toxic chemicals that are poisoning the water supply. It's a big step in the wrong direction. If they're going to bioengineer grass, it should be with the purpose of reducing the need for chemicals in mind.
    • Scotts does a tidy business in toxic chemicals [scotts.com]. Got to keep the money coming in once the lawn is planted, eh?
    • Exactly!

      Unfortunately, this seems to be the trend in genetically-modified plants right now--make them resistant to herbicides so that you can use more of them to kill off the unwanted plants.

      What I'm not hearing much about are the genetically-modified plants that are resistant to insects, reducing or eliminating the need for pesticides.

      Is the press just focusing on the more controversial modifications, or is that really what the industry is focusing on?
  • by mattkime ( 8466 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:56PM (#8825111)
    i really wish that corporations had standards to meet for producing genetically modified organisms. most people think that genetic engineering is inherently destructive and this simply isn't true. genetic engineering done responsibly could be a wonderful boon to our society. people also forget how destructive we've been without it - simply introducing organisms to new environments has caused terrible problems. unfortunately a few irresponsible corporations could give the whole technology a bad name.

    (of course, i think we'll get over this in the next couple decades)
  • This is sick. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Roofles the Clown ( 736970 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:57PM (#8825115)
    We already know what havoc creatures can create if they are moved from their original home and place in a new environment. Yet we are willing to create new species and set them loose into the world without so much as a concern for what the impact on the environment might be? Once that grass spreads beyond the golf courses and invades the yards of peoples' homes, how are they supposed to kill it without killing their own grass. We are so quick to pass judgement on genetically engineering animals, but when it comes to plants (which can cause just as much damage to the environment, if not MORE) we are willing to modify them in any way possible and place them out into the world? It's sick. Any form of genetic engineering should be banned until more is known about it's effects and the ethics of it can be worked out.
    • Re:This is sick. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by NineNine ( 235196 )
      You're absolutely right. And to support your claim, I suggest that you stop eating or using any product containing any kind of corn product, since what we call "corn" was created just in the last few hundred years.... and look at the damage it's done to society!!!

      Oh yeah, eggplants, too. And most roses. Pretty much all produce you buy at grocery stores.

      Good luck!
      • There is something to be said of selectively growing slight mutations over a period of half a millenia as safe.

        In contrast, cutting and pasting large sequences of alien DNA into our food supply (or even into golf course lawns), might just be a bad idea. Not that I'm totally against it, but why are we in such a fucking hurry? Is the golfing industry about to collapse, and send thousands of starving green jackets into an already barren job market?

        Is Iran developing weapons of grass destruction?

        Seriously, l
    • Re:This is sick. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by DustMagnet ( 453493 )
      I'm not as worried about the "environment" here. There's not enough weed killing in the wild to give this GM an advantage. It's the farmers that should fear this grass. Most grasses spread and are very persistent weeds. If I was a soybean farming using GM soybeans, I'd be pretty angry about the creation of this grass. What's next? Kudzu?
    • No, it is not sick. It is progress. Humanity has been "genetically engineering" crops for many thousands of years. Previously we did it through selective breeding that took many tens of generations to get to the final product, but now we can do it in just a few generations in the lab. Corn is a grass. The orginal wild corn is not much different from the grass growing in your yard. Very small seed-kernels and a small yield. But the ancient Maya, Toltecs, Hopi, Azetcs and others "genetically" engineered it
    • Re:This is sick. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Okind ( 556066 )

      Any form of genetic engineering should be banned until more is known about it's effects and the ethics of it can be worked out.

      How can we learn more about its effects if it is banned? We can't. At the very least restrict your ban to comercial purposes.

      Besides, we've been doing this stuff for centuries (cross-breeding anyone?). Only we used to just introduce many new variaties all the time (as part of the development process). Now, we have reduced that to just a few. The end result of this technology

    • I also encourage you to prosecute what's left of the Native American population, since those evil bastards have been using genetic engineering for thousands of years [nativetech.org].

      Sick fucks.
      • You obviously have no idea what genetic engineering is. What the Native Americans and many other cultures did was selective breeding, not genetic engineering. With selective breeding, organisms with bad traits are removed from the population, increasing the population of plants bearing good alleles, like those that make corn kernels large vs. those that make them small. Or perhaps closely related species are hybridized together. Rarely a mutation might happen, but generally selective breeding only takes
    • Re:This is sick. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by osgeek ( 239988 )
      Oh, BS. This isn't "sick". It's just another step in the continuing path of man's near-inevitable destiny to completely control the physical world.

      We're going to genetically modify many species now that we know how. Eventually, we're going to genetically modify ourselves to make "human beings" smarter, stronger, more fuel efficient, whatever.

      Sure, we should take some care to avert disaster -- but if we're going to experiment, it might as well be with grass and other simple life forms that are unlikel
  • I think this happened once already [stephenking.nl].

    W
  • by marcello_dl ( 667940 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:58PM (#8825121) Homepage Journal
    So they can pour that weed-killing chemical with no fear of damaging the golf course. But, what about me? I haven't been genetically reengineered, I guess that too many chemicals around may affect me somehow.
    • Yes, but by the time you're starting to notice the effects, it'll be practicly impossible to prove who was responsible. And even if you would be "lucky" enough to get those that are responsible to pay up, it won't be much in comparison to what you've lost. (How much is 10year of your life worth to you?)

      What we need is a better system to punish those who act so irresponcible. What's a 1 million dollar fine if you make the tenfold by doing it?
  • Reminds me of... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 10, 2004 @12:59PM (#8825146)
    Reminds me of Colleurpa Taxipholia, a genetically engineered version of seaweed for use in fishtanks to withstand different temperatures, and was superior to all other seaweed.

    Only problem is that it escaped into marine life and is currently taking over many areas of the sea, killing all marine life in its path (cannot be eaten as it is poisonous to most). Because of its superior nature there isn't an easy way to stop its spread, and it continues to grow.

    Sounds like a similar scenario anyways.
  • Two Problems (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thorgil ( 455385 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:01PM (#8825158) Homepage
    Basically two problems:

    1. Modified grass spreads and become "Superweed".
    2. Modified genes spread to other species, either by hybridization or vectors such as bacteria. (Agrobacterium tumefaciens as an example)

    This is what opposers are afraid of. /Tobias
    • One thing to consider is that at our current level of technology, we're generally not creating new genes, only putting genes from one plant into another. Hence, the fear of modified genes spreading to other species is less serious than it might otherwise be--the genes are already out there in the wild.

      Not to say that it isn't a risk, just that it isn't as huge a risk as it is often portrayed as being.
    • Re:Two Problems (Score:3, Informative)

      by hankaholic ( 32239 )
      I saw a presentation at CMU given by a researcher working on creating genetically engineered bacteria to help clean up polluted ground water. She was receptive to questions of the "What about superbacteria?" type, but seemed genuinely amused as she related stories of getting the engineered bacteria to survive even in carefully controlled lab conditions.

      As far as the "modified genes spreading" theory, genetic flaws are not contagious -- how many people can claim to have gotten Lou Gehrig's disease as a resu
  • by Faust7 ( 314817 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:02PM (#8825167) Homepage
    I want a genetically-modified grass that:

    (1) never needs mowing
    (2) runs Linux
    (3) fires warning lasers at door-to-door solicitors (may include the religious type)
    (4) emits pheromones to attract gorgeous women
    (5) each blade serves as an access point for a wireless network
    (6) emulates all known video game consoles
    (7) kills all insects upon contact
    (8) blocks spy satellite scans
    (9) makes julienne fries
  • I believe the environmentalists are more afraid that the mutant grass will become self-aware and begin to assimilate native grasses into some sort of "collective".

  • "Four years ago, a group dubbing itself the Anarchist Golfing Association broke into a seed research facility in Portland, Ore., and stomped on experimental plots, then spray-painted the walls with the slogan, "Nature Bites Back."

    This is simply unrealistic. Would you be able to hear message from a group that's 'dubbing itself'? No! Of course not, self dubbed messages are always scratchy and difficult to understand. Why can't these environmental groups get a clue and hire a recording engineer?

    -Ad
  • Kind of funny ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) * on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:03PM (#8825176) Homepage Journal

    I'm a lefty environmentalist, and I oppose this, but not for the reasons you might think. I also work in biotech, and unlike many of my fellow environmentalists, I believe strongly in the potential of genetically-modified plants. There are an enormous number of applications that could be of significant benefit to humanity:

    • crops with high values of specific nutrients to overcome common deficiencies, e.g. "yellow rice"
    • pest-resistant crops, and/or crops that can grow in hostile environments
    • plants (whether edible or not) which can produce or be easily converted into alternative fules such as ethanol and biodiesel
    • plants for bioremediation -- cleaning up polluted soil by binding the pollutants, or increase soil fertility

    And instead they're concentrating on making golf courses greener? WTF? Golf courses will have weeds, and bare patches, and, you know, a little of bit of something that looks kind of natural. If you don't like it, fine, go play on Astroturf. I'm a lot more concerned about people being able to eat than I am about some rich guy's putting green.

    • I'm a lot more concerned about people being able to eat than I am about some rich guy's putting green.

      Do you also oppose research on making softer toilet paper through the same line of reasoning?

      • Do you also oppose research on making softer toilet paper through the same line of reasoning?

        Heh. No, for two reasons:

        1. It's not diverting resources from other, more useful research -- the people doing research on toilet paper would probably not be doing research on any of the applications I mentioned if they weren't working on TP instead.

        2. Most people don't play golf, but everybody has to wipe their ass.
        • by Jordy ( 440 ) * <jordan.snocap@com> on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:51PM (#8825503) Homepage
          1. It's not diverting resources from other, more useful research -- the people doing research on toilet paper would probably not be doing research on any of the applications I mentioned if they weren't working on TP instead.

          Are you implying that Scotts Co., who is in the grass business, would have otherwise done research on trying to solve world hunger? Or maybe that every genetic research scientist in the world should dedicate themselves to only important task regardless of their own ambitions?
  • Weed killer (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cybermace5 ( 446439 ) <g.ryan@macetech.com> on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:04PM (#8825188) Homepage Journal
    I thought that regular lawn grass was already pretty resistant to weed killer. At least, the last time I put weed killer on a lawn, the weeds died and the grass didn't. So Scott is making a product that acts like normal grass.

    Genetic modification is a tool. There are many, many advancements to be made by exploiting this new resource. It's new technology, people will be scared of it. The same was true with electricity.

    There once was a fear of AC as opposed to DC, Edision wanted everyone to believe that AC was much too dangerous to be used. Of course...he had an ulterior motive, as the major provider of DC power. There may be some lessons from this which might apply to some aspects of the current debate over genmod crops.
    • There once was a fear of AC as opposed to DC, Edision wanted everyone to believe that AC was much too dangerous to be used.

      So Edison promoted the use of Westinghouse's AC in the newly invented electric chair.

  • All able bodied goats, donkeys and cows are to report you your local draft board. We will fight the creeping menace. We will stop the evil...
  • Burn Baby, Burn! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by justzisguy ( 573704 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:09PM (#8825219)

    I'm sure fire will still lick it pretty good. Until they start adding some of those redwood genes, it'll burn just fine.

    I can understand environmentalist's concern that it is one mowing away from spreading (what happens when a golf course goes bankrupt?) so why not also neuter said grass? If it can't reproduce, it won't be going anywhere. There are already many varieties of grass that can't seed, reproducing through runners. A variety like that would not be susceptible to transplantation by birds carrying away seeds...

  • Un-american? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Z0mb1eman ( 629653 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:09PM (#8825221) Homepage
    "We've been here since the 1970s. It would be un-American to be scared away," Harriman says.

    Say WHAT?

    I was fairly indifferent to both sides of the argument until I read that little gem at the end of the article.

    What in the world does being American have to do with any of this? What, in Mr. Harriman's opinion, is considered "American"? The goal of making money at any cost, without losing much sleep over considering consequences to the environment or to the society? That's what he seems to be implying... I'm not American, but if I were, I'd probably be outraged at a fellow American making a statement like that.
  • Herd What? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Jim_Hawkins ( 649847 )
    ...if it was to escape onto public land, we wouldn't know how to control it.

    Apparently, they have never seen a herd of sheep in action...
  • by FollowThisLogic ( 710628 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:18PM (#8825289)
    By an assistant greenskeeper: "The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus-belt that night on this stuff."
  • by MagnaMark ( 468484 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @01:18PM (#8825291)
    The annoying thing about this is that it is not engineered to be resistant to pests. It's engineerd to be resistant to Roundup, made by Monsanto. There are lots [monsanto.ca] of other such "Roundup Ready" products, including canola, corn, and soybeans.

    The result of this is that farmers and now greenskeepers can douse their fields and fairways with Roundup. The Roundup ready plants survives this chemical shower, and everything else dies.

    The problems with this are:

    (1) The environmental impact of all this (extra) Roundup being released.

    (2) The fact that growers become dependent on Monsanto for Roundup. Monsanto is, in effect, genetically engineering conditions that will lead to a monopoly.

    (3) The selective pressures that this will put on all the pests that Roundup is supposed to control. In the same way that staph bacteria have evolved reistance to antibiotics in hospitals, the increased use Roundup will probably lead to the evolution of Roundup resistant superpests.

    Obviously Monsanto is more concerned with profiting than the long-term economic and environmental health of the country.

    I'm not against genetic engineering per se, but this approach seems to be fraught with pitfalls.

  • ...napalm?

    I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Smells like dead genetically modified creeping bentgrass.

  • Profit plan (Score:3, Funny)

    by tehanu ( 682528 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @02:40PM (#8825798)
    I think people have not yet realised the company's plan of profit.

    1. Make genetically modified grass.
    2. Wait until it is accidentally spread to rest of town's/city's lawns eg. wind.
    3. Sue whole town/city for patent violation because there is no way their intellectual property aka the grass could have got into people's lawns without them stealing the seed. This is because mankind can control nature with pinpoint control. If we say the grass won't spread because we cut it short enough, then damn it, nature will fall in place whether it likes it or not.
    4. Profit!

    The sad part is given past court cases they would actually have a very good chance of winning their case in court...
  • by Rex Code ( 712912 ) <rexcode@gmail.com> on Saturday April 10, 2004 @03:17PM (#8825976)
    A cross between Kentucky Bluegrass and California Sensimilla. Especially if I'm going to be playing 18 holes on it.
  • by geekotourist ( 80163 ) on Saturday April 10, 2004 @06:10PM (#8826970) Journal
    Note- IAAAEAAB (I am an agricultural economist and a biologist). I don't have any fundamental problems with true genetic engineering (moving genes from one species to another which would never have jumped over using regular cross-breeding): I've done it myself. I do have problems with current implementations of GE because
    • they focus on zero tolerance for weeds / pests: in the long run this will be more expensive than "accept a marginal and mildly fluctuating loss"
    • they're closed source, top-down implementations that lead to monocultures
    • They break standards

    Their closed-source version is a variant of better dog food.com [betterdogfood.com] where they don't just sell you the dogfood. The dog can only eat BDF.com dogfood *and* you only lease the dog *plus* you only can get poodles (and they'll sue you if poodle puppies show up in your neighborhood). The problem that Montanto is trying to solve isn't "how can farmers improve crop yields and reduce weeds?" Monsanto's problem is "How can we lock farmers into using our weedkillers?"

    Think of it like a bug patch. Imagine we find a major vulnerability, solved by upgrading some software. The open source method might be to make that software available for people to patch into whatever software they're currently running. The closed source version would be to 1. Sell new software that works with the patch 2. Sell the patch, 3. Insist that all old software is dangerous and outdated and should never be used in business. (4. and then later on when a new worm comes out, a huge percent of programs can be hit all at once due to the monoculture).

    With Andean potato farmers this is exactly what happened. You have farmers who've developed hundreds of different potato varieties over the years: buttery tasting ones, meaty tasting ones, ones that grow in drought / shade / various altitudes... and these potatoes could be susceptible to a particular pest (quite likely one or more of their varieties already had resistance: another story). A major North American company came in saying "Hey, our potato + pesticide combination is resistant to the pest. Buy both from us, then you'll have no problems. By the way our potato is patented- don't think about crossbreeding it." At the same time they launched a major advertising (FUD) campaign in major potato buying markets saying "Hey, our potato is the best most modern potato. Don't buy anything else." So farmers couldn't just patch their own potatoes- they had to buy into the product / product cycle upgrade of the NA company. Sounds familiar?

    Or look at "golden rice." Who can argue with preventing blindness from vitamin deficiencies? Do you want Blind Babies??? But is upping the vitamin A content of rice the best method to get vitamin A to people? What about veggies which already contain high quantities of beta-carotene (yams? carrots? Other richly-colored veggies and fruits?). The royalty payments for Golden Rice could instead pay for a variety of other seeds. And if you do want to up the A content of rice, should people get to choose which varieties get upgraded?

    And sometimes they're breaking standards while they're at it, (think like what VeriSign did recently with their redirect). For example, BT is a bacteria /toxin used by organic farmers for decades to kill certain insect pests. At the previous rate of use- as a spray- there was a very, very low probability of insects developing resistance. Decades of use hadn't produced it. Now that BT has been spliced into crop plants, the widespread planting of monocultures of BT crops means BT resistance is increasingly likely. As this happens the non-organic farmers can move onto other pesticides. But the organic farmers whose old standard- BT sprays- will also become useless have no backup. There was no system set up to compensate these farmers from their soon to be broken standard. Nor was their any "royalty" paid to these farmers who'd discovered BT in the first place.

  • by redsilo ( 684634 ) on Sunday April 11, 2004 @12:20AM (#8828730)
    Those can be a problem but the resistance is usually to only one or two kinds of herbicide. As far as I know there have been no tillage resistant plants released. (tongue deeply in cheek)

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