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Science Hardware Technology

'Nano-Lightning' Could Cool Computer Chips 72

Posted by timothy from the applause-would-be-micro-thunderous dept.
FizzyC writes "A story on New Scientist describes a technique to cool computer chips using charged ions. The system consists of 300 electrodes that ionise and then pump the air molecules across the surface of the chip. The Purdue University technology is the first air-based system to produce a cooling rate similar to water - 40 watts per square centimetre."
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'Nano-Lightning' Could Cool Computer Chips More

'Nano-Lightning' Could Cool Computer Chips

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  • Question is... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shachart ( 471014 ) <shachar-slashdot ... on DOT ac DOT il> on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @04:27PM (#8660808)
    How much heat does this heatsink *produce*, by ionizing air. I suspect than not much less than the 40W/cm2 it claims to cool.

    • Re:Question is... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Smidge204 ( 605297 )
      Probably none. Don't confuse ionizing air with generating plasma.

      This is very similar to the "Ionic Breeze" air cleaners, using high voltage potentials to move air. The heat it generates is absolutely negligible.
      =Smidge=
    • The point of cooling a chip is to get excess heat away from its rather small volume into some larger volume where the heat can be more easily dealt with. Even the usual fans produce some extra heat, but in comparison to the chip that is not much (otherwise passive cooling would be sufficient).

  • Cooling Things with Outside Air? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by core plexus ( 599119 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @04:28PM (#8660817) Homepage
    I'm curious, why is there no work on cooling things using outside air? Where I live (Alaska) it is generally cool for 8 months of the year. I wonder why we don't have fridges that exchange cool air from outside, and with some polishing, use cool air to cool our computers. In some parts of Alaska, they get -40 (40 degrees below zero) for weeks. Seems like it would be an energy saver. Can anyone correct me or point to some info?

    -cp-

    Alaska Village invited to test cheap, clean nuclear power [alaska-freegold.com]

    • I've always thought about that as well, being in Colorado/Iowa most of my life. It seems dumb to waste energy running the fridge/freezer when the weather outside is much colder than the fridge settings. During the summer you would obviously need to use the energy - but during the winter you could save a ton of power. You'd pretty much just need a thermometer, fan, and a vent running outside. It could have a door that closes the vent up when the temp reaches your preset level. It's definitely not rocket s
      • Agreed (hate agreeing with a hawkeye though)

        Even just a heat pump or something to cool a server room while venting the heat into the living/work areas would have to save something.

      • Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by mdielmann ( 514750 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @05:12PM (#8661249) Homepage Journal
        I have something like this in my newly purchased home, and it's totally passive. Essentially, it's an insulated room in the basement with a vent near the ceiling to the outside. Warmer air escapes through the vent (and cooler air may seep in that way, too), and the temperature stays low. When the rest of my basment is around 18 degrees C, this rooms is no more than 8 degrees C in the summer and can get as low as ~0 degrees C in the winter. I keep thinking I should get a system set up to help bleed warm air out of there faster. Given where I live, this could operate well within safe cooling ranges for food for half the year (maybe longer, depending on how fast it heats up). For foods that are less sensitive (whole fruits and vegetables, things that just taste better cool) this is already a full-year solution.

        Easiest way to make this active is 2 thermostats (one that supports A/C), maybe a couple of electric switches, and a fan. When the air outside is lower than the target temperature (heat setting) and the air inside is higher (cool setting), allow the fan to run. If wiring in series isn't allowed (if the type of thermostat can't support 120V AC), use switches that are turned on when the thermostat tells it to. Sounds like a fun project...
        • That sounds like a nice room - where do you live? I think it would be a great project to keep it temp controlled using outside air, and save you tons of cash in the process over the years.
          • I live on the Canadian Prairies, a small way outside of what passes for a big city in Canada. Although we still have the usual appliances, it saves us money right now by allowing us to keep things that we usually would leave on the counter in a cold place, like fruit and bread, thus reducing spoilage.
        • I have a room like this too, it's about 6x6 with massively insulated walls and door, a vent to the outside, sounds the same anyway.

          We store all sorts of things in it from canned goods to fresh veggies and fruit to wine and beer. We have yet to store milk or meat because of the time we left the light on... a thermos can keep things cold, or hot, eh.

          The other thing we have is a shaft that runs from the basement to the crawl space attic, interrupted by firewall that is pierced with pipes for the sewage syste
        • Sounds great. This is in the basement, though, and you have to go down there for your bread and fruit? That is sadly inconvenient, or it would be almost perfect. I was thinking of putting the refrigerator in such a room (but at ground level) to save energy to run the fridge, especially if the fridge door could be in the kitchen. A pantry or mudroom would be perfect... just modify the existing doorway and stick the fridge there. I suppose if the fridge is in there giving off heat, though, I'd need anoth
          • It's more than geothermal, the frost line is 4 ft. while the floor is 6 or 7 ft. below grade. this wouldn't account for near-freezing temperatures in the winter, nor would it account for the fluctuations of about 3 degrees I see between a cold winter day and a warm winter day. And it is sadly too responsive to this. That's another reason I'd like to make it active - it would make it easier to achieve colder temperatures by reducing the amount that geothermal effects are causing this.

            As for location, it
      • So you are willing to spend extra to install something to let out the HEAT in the middle of the winter, when instead you could save money on your heating bill by staying the way it is?

        I, however, would have liked to make use of such a system to cool my house in the summer by using my pool as a heat sink, thus warming it up, and making it nicer to swim. same ideas though, but on a different scale.
        • You're already doing that by paying for electricity to keep the device cool. If instead you can use a passive heat/cooling sink, you can indeed save money. That heat energy lost to keep your fridge cold is lost no matter what.
    • Because exchanging cool air in a refridgerator would cut the electric company out greatly... I smell conspiracy!
      • Where I used to live, I would agree, but I am now part of a member-owner co-op (yeah, commie), so any profits gets put back in for infrastructure, capital credits, and refunds. Yes, I actually get a check from my member-owner telephone co-op, also (and very cheap, fast DSL!). I urge everyone to shrug off the corporate yoke of energy oppression and form a member-owned co-operative!

        -cp-

        President Bush to Liberate Alaska [alaska-freegold.com]

    • during our harsh Canadian winter, I put my AMD Athlon case against the window to cool the inside temp even more, using the natural thermal conductivity of the metal case.

      I got my new comp last fall, so I dunno what I'm going to do this fast approaching summer...
    • Would the percentage of the population who lives in the cold climates and be interested in the technology be sufficient to recoup any R&D costs expended on the technology?
      • With rising energy costs, I would say yes. And there isn't much research needed as I stated... we're talking about putting in a tube from the back of your fridge to the outside with a fan in it and a small computerized thermostat that controlls the fan/vent door.
      • We aren't talking about just the Northern Tier states of the U.S. but also Canada, Northern Europe, and lots of other places. I know that many villages have very high power rates, due in part to the fact that the entire Village is powered from a diesel generator farm. I currently (no pun intended) enjoy relatively cheap energy rates, but I see the day when I shall either pay for infrastructure, on way or another, to deliver more coal, natural gas, or nuclear power, or cut down. Hey, I lived in a Tipi for a
    • here in my Phoenix, Arizona lab for quite some time but I've been rather disapointed with the results.

    • Usually the problem is maintaining humidity with the cold, dry air. The easiest way to make it work would be to run antifreeze (if you can get enough glycol in solution!) between a heat exchanger in both places. You would want to move the water prety fast, but you would eliminate the compressor.

      For your computer... don't you WANT the extra heat in the room?

    • Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by El ( 94934 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @05:19PM (#8661317)
      I've often wondered this myself. Why are refrigerator coils mounted on the back of the refrigerator, instead of outside? Why do we use upright refrigerators instead of chest style, which don't get filled with hot air everytime you open the door? Why do people drive SUVs that get 16MPG and are less safe (due to their higher center of gravity) than a hybrid which costs less and gets 50MPG? Why doesn't anybody install ground source thermal heating/air conditioning, instead of using outside air as a heat sink (ground stays at about 68 degrees year round, outside air is always hotter when you want to cool and cooler when you want to heat.)

      The only answer I can think of is that the average consumer is an idiot! Most people would rather save $1 today than $10 over the next 20 years. (Oh, and if you installed the refrigerator coils outside, you would have to pay to have it installed by an A/C professional.)
      • Upright refrigerators allow one to stare and gape at the food inside. "I can't believe I jut went shopping and there's nothing good to eat."

        More reasonably, short people, old people, and children cannot reach into a chest refrigerator easily. A chest refrigerator takes up twice as much precious floor space. A chest refrigerator is the sort in which a child can be easily trapped.

        If you really want to save cold air in a refrigerator, produce one with a second clear door inside. This would keep all the saf

        • Why install a second door if you could use one clear door? (like those refrigerators in stores?)
        • A clear door will "sweat" with condensation on the inside as well as the outside, which would make it completely useless.

          One way to avoid it though is to install a dehumidifier on both sides, but then you run into more equipment, making it a more complex and costly system, just to have a clear door. Why not make it childproof instead?

          • Double-paning the door (with either a vacuum or a closed dry gas between the two panes) would eliminate most of the condensation problems.

            I guess you would have some condensation from warmer air that contacts the interior surface when the door is open, but my intuition is that this would be minimal even with glass and any remaining condenstaion problem could be eliminated by using a material with a lower heat conductivity than glass or coating the glass with a no-fog coating.

            Actually, I am surprised more
          • The clear door only sweats when you open it, because the condensation on the inside of the refrigerator occurs generally near the evaporator, and then the water runs down the inside of the enclosure and either into a catch pan which sits next to the compressor and motor, or into a drain tube which exits typically through the floor. Then you open the door and the air temperature rises sharply above its temperature as it moves and voila.

            How about a refrigerator filled with clear bins that slide out on rolle

      • Mount the coils outside how? Paying some tech $500 to install a $1200 fridge, instead of pluging in a simple factory built all in one system for $800? False ecconomices in many cases, if you consider all the energy needed to make and install that more complex system.

        Chest freezers exist are dangerious, kids do fall into them and die if nobody discovers it. Sure you are strong enough to lift the lid from the inside, but little kids are not.

        Lets see that Hybred car tow my boat out of the lake. Now i

        • You are correct, saving energy in the long run costs you more up front. And if you are towing trailers or boats, you actually need a vehicle that gets poor mileage. Let's do a quick survey -- what percentage of huge SUVs even have a tow ball mounted in the back? 10%? 20%? 95% of the SUVs I see are being driven daily to work by a single person, not towing or carrying 7 passengers. Oh, I have a Honda Civic Hybrid which gets over 50MPG, and a Subaru Forester which gets about 25MPG. They are both useless for to

          • Towing the boat, driving on gravel roads. Ever notice how most the SUV ads say "kids" in them? Front seats in cars are fine, but I've never been comfortable in the backseat of ANY car, and haven't been since I was 15. (And I still had a lot of growth left at that age, girls who mature fast will run into problems sooner) SUVs, vans, and minivans are the only cars I know of that I would want to sit in for long pierods of time.

            Look closely at those SUVs, most that I've seen have 2 inch receivers, and t

        • It is unfortunate that refrigeration systems are a pain in the ass to maintain. You can actually take your normal kitchen refrigerator, take all the interesting parts out of the bottom of it, and move it outside. Aside from the equipment needed to evacuate and recharge the system you need only a flaring tool, some tubing, and some flare nuts, plus some fittings. This is enough stuff to do a pro-quality job. But, dealing with refrigerant is a PITA.

          As for the hybrid towing your boat out of the lake, Dodge d

          • There are many different models of SUVs, some get 25 mpg, some 12.

            Hybred vechicals do better in city stop and go driving. They do worse on the hiway. A good modern tranmission system is a lot more efficant than a generate, moter, and battery system, a fact that you cannot get around. Now there is the one advantage that engines tuned to run at one and only one RPM are more efficant, but it isn't enough to make up the extra costs of the rest of the system for hiway driving.

      • Why...Why...Why...Why...

        Why do people drive on parkways and park on driveways?
        Why do people wear a 'pair of pants', but just one bra?
        Why is cargo sent by boat, but shipments are sent by truck?
        Why is common sense rare?

        -
      • People drive SUVs because they like them more, not because they aren't capable of analyzing a financial decision. (I don't like SUVs, either because I can't see over/around them while driving; however, I can understand how the extra space and being able to see around and over other drivers could have an appeal.)

        For the other questions, you need to compare long-term cost-savings against either market returns or current borrowing rates. I ran a quick scenario assuming a conservative 7% return on investment
      • Why do people drive SUVs that get 16MPG and are less safe (due to their higher center of gravity) than a hybrid which costs less and gets 50MPG?

        Because I can't take 3 kids to the grocery store in a car that only has two seats?

        I'd love to have a hybrid, but nobody makes one that seats 7 people and has room for groceries.

        Make a hybrid minivan and I'll buy it. Course, then people will bitch when they see me driving this big beast to work all by myself. 'Why doesn't he get a little hybrid to go to work' t
        • Ford should be coming out with a hybrid SUV in 2005. Yes, a hybrid minivan is a great idea. I beleive Toyota is considering hybrid options for all their vehicles, so hybrid whatevers should eventually be available.

          Oh, and a Civic Hybrid works fine for taking 3 kids to the grocery store, although I usually use the Subaru for trips to Costco (slightly more cargo space.)
    • You would need longer tubes to the condensor (heat exchanger in the back of the frig) and additional refrigerant to fill the tubes. And it would take a professional to install it.

      If you ever wanted to move the frig it would be a pain.

      The frig would steal heat from your house and send it outside everytime you opened the door (not good in a climate with cold outdoors).

      You would have to keep the outdoor condensor relatively clean.

      You may need a refrigerant pump depending on your specific installation.

    • It's a good idea, but it's basically a cost issue. Capital costs for the type of system you are talking about large. On top of that the system has to be designed specifically for the location you are at. Also all the components of the system (your fridge, PC, air conditioner, any thing that puts out heat) would have to be designed into this larger heat transport system.

      Basically unless you are in area where energy requirements are tight (i.e. space shuttle/station) or somewhere with massive energy costs (l
      • I have to disagree.

        Consider this: a) the location of the fridge is usually static, as are the locations of the sink, the stove, and other appliances. You (or your SO) will not be rearranging them as if they were a couch, wall art, or other similar item. b) long-term and resale value. If you can demonstrate that your smart home saves $1800/year in energy, then the small initial cost is irrelevant. In fact, my boxes are in roughly the same location they were 3 years ago, or their predecessors anyway.

        I belie

    • I live in Canada, and I do that.. In the winter, the computer sucks air from outside, in the summer, from the A/C. Check out these bad pictures of my simple setup (and take down the page at the same time):

      Pictures [geocities.com]

  • dunno about that but... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @04:43PM (#8660977)
    the article starts out by overhyping the technology and ends with cautious optimism with quotes from someone working on it.

    at this point in time, this sounds to me as cool as reading an article about teaching bees to flap their wings inside my case to cool the circuits down.
    • ... teaching bees to flap their wings inside my case to cool the circuits down.

      You do not need them to teach that, they will probably organize it themselves after having nested inside the case.

  • Hmmm... Maybe some problems here. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CyberVenom ( 697959 ) on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @05:00PM (#8661149)
    As I read it, basically, the air is ionized by electrodes, and the ionized air is then pulled across the heat sink via electric charge. This happens to be the same concept as used in the "Ion Air Purifiers" that are advertised on TV. This is supposedly more efficient because the airflow is induced along the surface of the heatsink directly instead of the brute-force method of a fan where the air is thrown at the heatsink en masse and it is hoped that it diplaces the hot air already there. Kinda makes me wonder how this would work in a real-world environment... small particles like dust, pollen, and smoke are attracted to the ionized surfaces (this is how the air purifiers work), so in a place like Southern California, I would imagine that the dust buildup on the heatsink would be much worse with this method than a fan... And dust buildup on a heatsink is not only an insulator, but in the case of the ionized airflow heatsink, it may actually render the ionization process useless, and the air will cease to flow, creating not only an insulated heatsink, but dead air over it.
    • I agree, I don't think this technology is applicable for cooling directly on the chip. However, this Ionic Breeze technology i think would be perfect for cases.
      • The stationary layer on the surface of heatsink is the problem, which they try to fix with their invention.

        Instead of playing with a high frequency/high voltage surface of the heat sink, I am thinking about a small but high velocity air fan and a dimple-patterned heat sink surface for maximum turbulence. I believe it is possible to generate air vortex over a small surface even with a modest power supply fan. Alternatively, I would use a piezo crystal vibrating the heat sink surface in an (unaudible) ultras
    • I imagine it would have to be a closed air exchange system (though the article doesn't say), the returning air would still have to be cooled by other means - passive, adiobatic, pizoelectric, even liquid (though no longer right up against the processor).

  • But is it quiet? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 24, 2004 @05:01PM (#8661159)
    Won't this system produce nanothunder?

  • Consarnit. (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by _aa_ ( 63092 )
    I was going to buy a couple of those Bathroom Ionic Breezes [sharperimage.com], take them apart, and place them throughout my computer case and then boast the first "Ionic Cooled" case. I seriously think there's a market for them in PC cooling. They don't throughput much air, and they need constant cleaning, but they are absolutly silent, no moving parts, and low on energy. Not to mention that they clean the air of dust particles and whatnot, helping to keep your computer, and work environment clean. SharperImage should come

    • Re:Consarnit. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by smack_attack ( 171144 )
      The reason no one has replaced their fans with Ionic Breezes is because they move air slowly and require constant cleaning. They simply don't remove heat from the case fast enough. You even said so yourself: "They don't throughput much air, and they need constant cleaning,"

  • Short-circuit? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dragonfly28 ( 466802 ) on Thursday March 25, 2004 @07:50AM (#8666054)
    So you would want to make a bunch of ions inside your computer, don't get me wrong but would'nt you have some electrical problems then.

    When I recenty installed some new memory, it came with a nice static electricity warning. So now you would want to make a gas-cloud of ions inside your computer, if static electricity can kill your components doesn't that mean that ions can too?

    Ok, as long as the system is running the ions are trapped between all those electrodes, but where to these ions go when you switch off the power?

    Better have some capacitators ready......

    • Re:Short-circuit? (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "if static electricity can kill your components doesn't that mean that ions can too"

      Not really. It's not the static charge that kills components, it's the sudden discharge when you zap it. That's a lot of current going through some mighty small IC features, and if you calculate the current density, that's the killer.

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