Delta 2 Rocket Launches 50th GPS Satellite 188
wetshoe writes "This CNN article reports that 'the 50th U.S. Global Positioning Satellite has lifted off aboard a Boeing Delta 2 rocket.' It was sent into space to replace an aging GPS satellite. One more reason why geocaching is so much fun."
Geocaching (Score:5, Interesting)
Its just you (and maybe some friends), no real pressure. Plus its an actual trek (ranges from in-city, to some caches are ones that need Scuba or moutain gear or whatever).
;-)
And with geocaching you've just got your GPS, a compass, and maybe a topographic map (if you can get one). None of this fancy cell phones with internet to tell you answers stuff
Re:Geocaching (Score:5, Insightful)
How To Use a Compass (Score:2)
Re:Geocaching (Score:2, Informative)
They then phone (cell phone) for rescue cause their GPS batteries are flat and they haven't a clue where they are.
Re:Geocaching (Score:2)
Re:Geocaching (Score:2, Interesting)
i wonder what the "treckers" of yesterday would say about your "fancy GPS handheld magellan with programmable direction stuff".
gotta love geocaching though.... i went once or twice in San Felipe (BC Mexico) and we got to the spot and it matched the description from the webpage exactly, and we looked under the pile of rocks where it told us would be the "prize" and nothing was there. I guess whoever got there before us didn't repl
Re:Geocaching (Score:2)
Hmm... where's the "no, it's stupid" option?
Re:Geocaching (Score:2, Funny)
what? if there is any one appropriate physical activity appropriate for geeks, it is geocaching.
oh sorry... (Score:4, Funny)
stop right there; short circuit the rest of the statement.
Re:oh sorry... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Geocaching (Score:3, Informative)
Amen to that (Score:2)
One of the best was a cache at the top of a canyon. The first time I went there, I thought my GPS was just being inaccurate and the cache was at the bottom. That would've been too easy.
You could park 100 feet from the cache, but you
Re:Ocean? (Score:3, Interesting)
It really was great fun searching the islands for these sit
Re:Ocean? (Score:2)
No info on satellite (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No info on satellite (Score:2)
They claim that Block IIR-M (which includes the first of two new civilian signals) satellites will be launched in 2004, so this may very well be one of those. Block IIF (includes the second new civilian signal with a much higher power) won't be launched until 2006.
I'm waiting for Galileo ;-) (Score:2)
"I'd like to see some more precise GPS"
Us Olde Europeans are waiting for Galileo [www.useu.be] ;-P
Re:No info on satellite (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! (Score:2)
DGPS is more a concept than anything (use nearby readings to cancel out as many forms of GPS error [vic.gov.au] as possible), and can provide anywhere from WAAS-level accuracy to centimeter-level accuracy if you're willing to take readings over several days and process them on a computer after the fact [noaa.gov].
Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:DON'T FORGET WAAS!! (Score:2, Informative)
Selective Availability -- it's still there! (Score:2)
Most of the time, accuracy is indeed better than 10 feet. In my experience, it's actually about a meter.
Not necessarily true (Score:2)
Currently only military receivers and special receivers that use extra processing tricks (aforementioned $20k Trimbles, NoVaTels, etc.) are capable of using the current L2 transmissions.
The advantage of a dual-frequency receiver is that ionospheric delay (a significant contributor to GPS error now that SA is turned off) is a linear function of frequenc
Kudos to the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Internet too. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Its not easy though and you would impact everyone using gps in a large part of the world.
Jeroen
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:5, Informative)
There is the carrier frequency.
Then each satellite has a specific identifying signal for each channel called a psuedo random number.
Then, it layers in a telemetry data packet as part of the actual data transmitted
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2, Informative)
Trilateration, not triangulation.
More info here [cmtinc.com].
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
So let's say you're in the middle of a ground war in the, um, let's say Middle East. The (accessible) public signals can be scewed in a fairly localized manner... so that everything in the area appears to be about 1 km to the east, let's say. That's not very handy if you have a rouge nation deploying a weapon that depends on GPS accuracy.
However, the encrypted military signal can retain it's accuracy... so
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2, Interesting)
It is good that the US has made the system available effectively without restriction, however now that other nations have realised the value of such a system, it is understandable that they want to be able to operate something similar without whatever political considerations are affecting the
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:3, Informative)
it was encrypted from day one. they just recently changed it. (which is good and makes the rest of your post true and insightful)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:4, Informative)
The US offered two levels of GPS; one was encrypted and only available to the military; one was unencrypted but had something called "Selective Availability" (SA) turned on which decreased the accuracy by 200-300ft.
Recently, they have turned off one of the two SA inaccuracies. The military (encrypted) signal is still more accurate (~10 feet), but now the public signal is valid to ~30 feet.
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Any ideas?
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
(1) In most situations they can't. Differential GPS just broadcasts the difference between a location measurement given by GPS and the actual location of the differential GPS station. So long as you can take GPS readings at a place whith known coodinates, and can make radio broadcasts on the appropriate frequencies, you can do differential GPS.
(2) Differential GPS base stations must broadcast information. If the military is worried about a
Minor correction (Score:3, Interesting)
It can be mathematically shown that "Poor man's DGPS", i.e. "This is the lat/long the GPS says I'm at, this is my real lat/long" does not work, and may even degrade accuracy.
The good news is it's getting easier and easier to create a DGPS source. In the past, it was impossible to get raw pseudorange data from economical receivers. But nowaday
Re:Minor correction (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Jeroen
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no issue with the US campaigning to prevent widespread use of the other systems, but I am not going to turn around and thank the US for being so magnanimous when in fact they are advancing their own agenda.
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:3, Informative)
I know a guy that was with Space Command, working GPS since the early days. He met some Soviet Major (or something) at a conference once, years la
Re:EU's positioning system (Score:2)
Do you have a reference please, or did you come up with this on your own?
Re:EU's positioning system (Score:2, Informative)
Mostly the US has declared that it is 'unnecessary' for the EU to develop their own system or that the planned sytem would disrupt GPS (the planned improvements to GPS due to similar frequencies). Recently the US has come to an agreement with the EU about how the satellites will work. So it does appear that Galileo will become a reality.
Forbes magazine [forbes.com]
EU viewpoint [eubusiness.com]
Re:EU's positioning system (Score:2)
Most places want to move to free airspace, rather than pre-designated corridors. To do so requires better knowledge of where the planes are, and where they are going (this is way more than just TCAS). They also want to improve precision of approaches to runways (where a few meters matters a lot).
An obvious component of such a system is something like GPS but with greater accuracy. Europ
Selective Availability (Score:2)
Guess when SA was turned off? Guess how fast Galileo turned into a dead project after SA was turned off?
Nowadays, even if SA is turned back on, it probably won't mean much. DGPS has become far more common than just the USCG stations. (For example, WAAS/EGNOS/whatever the Japanese call their system, all three are identical with different names, whic
More like... Shame on US (Score:4, Informative)
How naive of you.
US, and specifically those who wrote and otherwise endorsed PNAC [newamericancentury.org] have been doing everything possible to stop the development/deployment of Galileo - GNSS (EU GPS initiative). US isn't providing the rest of the world with global navigation technology out of its heart's content. It's a tool which gives corporate interests as well as military complex a dominant role. There are billions of dollars involved ($12bn and growing), as well as geo-political element of control. Imagine if there was a conflict between China and US in the next decade. Do you honestly believe Pentagon would let the Chinese to utilize GPS in order to strike US targets?
Paul Wolfowitz was one of those people who was (and still is) opposed to any kind of GPS which isn't under direct jurisdiction of United States. Now that the deal has been reached, it leaves no choice for the hawks to accept the fact that US GPS hegemony will be broken in few years. Competition helps everyone.
There is also the commercial aspect to it. Galileo, once fully operational by 2007, would suck a huge amount of revenue from GPS. US officials had many reasons to stifle competition in order to ensure GPS monopoly.
Read the paper on detailing some of the drama and US' sabotage of EU independent GPS system here [216.239.53.104]
GPS and Galileo - Locating an Effective Policy (Score:2)
Re:More like... Shame on US (Score:2)
How naive of you.
Did you actually READ the paper you linked to?
Here's a nice little tidbit for you:
"Since these bands are so close to the M-code, the signal broadcast on E1 and E2 could potentially interfere with the secure military signal. More importantly, the E1 and E2 bands would be extremely difficult for the U.S. to jam without si
Re:More like... Shame on US (Score:2)
A V-2 is a ballistic missile. Just about all launchers, including the Delta, are ballistic missile derivatives.
A cruise missile is a missile derived from an aircraft design e.g. the V-1. A Kamikazi plane is a cruise missile where the guidance system is a human pilot.
It should be possible to jam the civilian US GP
Re:More like... Shame on US (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:2)
Re:Kudos to the US (Score:3, Insightful)
Reagan made GPS public after airliner shot down (Score:2, Interesting)
However, back in the 80's when Russia shot down that civilian airliner that strayed off course, President Reagan made the decision to make GPS publicly available.
DoD fought off turning off the system all together because we didn't want our enemies to use the system against us. However, with the EU wanting to launch their own and the spreading use of DPGS (differential GPS), it eventually became moo
er? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:er? (Score:3, Funny)
I thought that was a strange comment myself, but then considered that perhaps they have no real life or friends. Looking forward to the next satellite replacement might be what gets this person through the day.
yay! new satellite!
there is a simple explanation (Score:5, Funny)
I think he just hid his cache in the satellite before it went up. Darn, that is going to be hard to get.
Geocaching (Score:4, Interesting)
Space Junk, paying the bill, etc, etc (Score:5, Informative)
First.. Space Junk.
GPS is launched into an orbit some 12,000 miles above the Earth's surface. That orbit has a grand total of about 50 satellites split into 6 different, non-overlapping planes and slightly different altitudes. There are very, very few satellites that go out that far and none have a circular orbit within a few hundred miles of the GPS satellites. Very, very little chance of a collision.
Also, from that height, the satellites lack enough fuel to deorbit or be sent into the sun. In 1992, my Univ of Colorado aerospace engineering lab went down to the control center and we had a nice tour. I asked the officer giving the brief if they intended to establish some sort of parking orbit for dying satellies as they get phased out. He indicated that it was something they would consider as the constellation gets built out.
Secondly..
Paying the bill.
GPS was encrypted from Day 1. The lower resolution receivers we use just are allowed to decrypt the satellites. It is very difficult to get the higher resolution channel.
The US government is perfectly willing to let the other countries contribute to the costs associated with running GPS.
But..
You might want to consider why the other countries are willing to spend billions on a redundant system rather than pay into GPS or use it for free.
When someone spend billions rather than use a free service, something is up.
The US military adamantly refuses to free any of the control of the system up. It is a US *military* asset. As such, it has military utility. They have completely thrown off the commercial channels in the past while engaging in military activities in a region by jiggering with the output to cause the locations to be off. (They can also turn off all the commercial channels on satellites flying over Afghanistan, then turn them back on before the reach the US, for example).
The rest of the world seems to have some qualms about handing the world's major navigation system to a single provider, for some reason.
Re:US controlling GPS (Score:2)
Although I've heard, and certainly believe, that it's possible for the US to screw up GPS, I've never heard of them actually doing it.
Do you have some reference for this? I'd be very interested to see more information about these incidents. In particular, I'd like to see what President (I'd assume the decision would be mad
Re:US controlling GPS (Score:2)
Re:Space Junk, paying the bill, etc, etc (Score:2)
Some math (Score:4, Interesting)
Crunching the numbers, we have about $105 million to put up a GPS satellite, with about 11 useful years; call it $10 million per year. Multiplying by 50 satellites, we have $500 million per year cost for GPS. I never knew. Also, on average, each year 4 or 5 launches must happen to replace aging GPS satellites.
Note that the launch costs are actually higher than the cost of the satellite. Also, the satellite could probably be made more cheaply if launch costs were lower (instead of over-engineering it to never break, they might just launch a cluster of two in the same orbit, or just design it to be easily repaired). If and when private companies build reusable spacecraft that can carry a GPS satellite, the cost of GPS will go down a lot. A Boeing Delta 2 is completely used up in each GPS launch right now, so truly reusable spacecraft should be able to dramatically cut launch costs and still make money.
steveha
Re:Some math (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the 50th satellite launched. That means $105m * 50 over the entire life of the GPS project.
IIRC, there are only 26 operating satellites, give or take.
Honestly though, do you believe the gov pays $105m for each satellite in orbit? There are plenty of ways for them to get their money back.
Re:Some math (Score:2)
I Googled and found that there are currently 28 [navy.mil]. Thanks for the correction!
That means $105m * 50 over the entire life of the GPS project.
We shouldn't assume we can multiply 50 by $105 million, because the earlier GPS satellites were different and probably cost more. And I don't have any data at all on R&D costs, which you could add to the price tag. I was just interested in the costs of keeping the current system going, and how many lau
Re:Some math (Score:3, Interesting)
It goes something like this.
1) Pay Lockheed & Boeing to get the bird in the sky.
2) Tax Lockheed & Boeing.
3) Tax the income of the employees of Lockheed & Boeing.
4) Tax this money again when they buy stuff (sales tax).
etc. etc. etc.
If I had to guess, the only money the US is actually losing (dollars leaving the country) on this project is for the fuel and maybe some titanium (or other raw materials). AFAIK, both Boeing and Lockhe
Re:Some math (Score:2)
steveha
Re:Some math (Score:2)
Re:Some math (Score:2)
It is now. True reusable spacecraft will change the game very much.
Currently, you build your space objects as large single pieces, with maximum size depending on which rocket you will use to do the launch. In the future, you will build your space objects as modules that dock together, with module size chosen to be convenient for the cargo capacity of your true reusable spacecraft. It will be much cheaper to send up several laun
Re:Some math (Score:2)
Given the cost of a shuttle launch in comparison with Atlas and Delta launches, I haven't seen the proof yet of a cost savings by using a reusable launch vehicle.
By the way, it's the space elevator and space tethers that bets are being taken on for cheap launches these days.
Re:Some math (Score:2)
We need the space equivalent of a 747 airplane: something that spends more time flying than being refurbished. That will bring down launch costs a great deal.
A space elevator would be great, but I don't want to wait for one. That's much harder engineering than a truly reusable spacecraft. And you
Re:Some math (Score:2)
Re:Some math (Score:2)
What the Shuttle taught us is that it is not possible for NASA to make such a thing.
No one has done it yet, but it actually looks reasonable. It's not clear that we can build a single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO) reusable spacecraft with our current knowledge, but it's quite clear that we could build at least a two-stage design (TSTO) where both stages are truly reusable. And most of the experts think SSTO is doable. It won't have much c
To Clear up some things.... (Score:5, Informative)
2. The satellite launched was a Block IIR vehicle. Block IIR-M and IIF vehicles are still in a very low orbit (close to sea level..haven't been launched.)
3. We can't burn satellites in from semi-synchronous orbit (the GPS orbit) using today's technology. When they're disposed of we kick them away from the earth a couple of hundred kilometers. Orbital degradation is slight at semi-synchronous, but the satellites will interfere with each other in about 6,000 years. I hope we'll be able to clean it up before then.
4. GPS Signals arrive on two frequencies, L1 (L1 = 1575.42 MHz) and L2 (L2 = 1227.6 MHz). C/A code (which is FREE as in air to civil users) is modulated onto the L1 carrier signal. It has never been encrypted. It has been degraded (selective availability, the method of degradation, was turned off in 2000) but is now every bit as accurate as the military signal. The only significant advantage the military receivers have is the ability to correct for ionospheric defraction using both frequencies.
5. The major driver behind Galileo (EU GPS) is economics. Basically the US has a handle on a 12 billion dollar industry and the EU wants its share. They're expecting to charge money for the same service the US gives out for free! Somebody failed economics.
Feel free to respond with any questions, I'd love to answer them.
Re:Sounds like someone involved (Score:2)
I'm hoping the 148 SOPS (ANG squadron at Vandy's remote antennae) pick up the GPS back up, but I heard it might be like the 1 SOPS with local
Re:TinFoil (Score:3, Funny)
Re:TinFoil (Score:2, Funny)
damn, this foil is itchy.
Re:TinFoil (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OFF TOPIC? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's off topic because it's a GPS launch, not a recon sat launch.
It's also more than a bit stupid because a Delta II isn't a heavy SLV (space launch vehicle) and a GPS satellite weighs a significant chunck of the possible lauch weight. (The article didn't say what model GPS sat was launched, but assuming it was the newest model, the IIF, then the Delta II couldn't handle two of them, let alone one of the NRO's monster satellites.) If I can look up the sat weight (3758 lbs) and the Delta II lauch capacity (4971 for the configuration used) in under five minutes, then he can look it up too.
ARRRG! I was wrong! (Score:3, Informative)
Double-ARRRG! It's not my night. (Score:2)
Nuclear Detection System (NUDET) (Score:2)
I programmed for an old TRANSIT reciever and it's amazing these things ever worked. Basically, you had to listen for the satellite's signal and follow the doppler over the course of about 10 minutes. Knowing the orbit and the doppler profile would put you at one of two places on the earth, and you had to estimate from your previ
Re:space junk? (Score:5, Interesting)
As former GPS instructor and operator (Score:4, Informative)
The constellation has 4 slots per orbit, with six orbital planes. Since the satellites are at a semi-sync orbit around 12,000 Nm (nautical miles), there is no way to deorbit or send the shuttle up to fix. The shuttle only goes up around 50-100 miles, from what I've read.
Early GPS satellites, commonly referred to as Block I, were experimental and only expected to last around 5 years. These babies turned out to be over achievers and a few lasted 13 years (SVN 3, if my memory serves correct). It usually came down to degradation of the solar arrays. The Cesium and Rubidium clocks will still have one or two operational (they launched with 4), but the solar arrays couldn't generate enough electricity to last through Solar Season (a point in orbital mechanics, where the satellite spends a good amount of time in the sun or moon's shadow). On a few, they made the mistake ( or didn't anticipate) of not insulating one of the batteries well enough, and it failed faster.
Anyway, with technology, they started packing more and more extra crap on the satellites and it didn't seem to make the birds any better. I used to give the Rockwell engineers a hard time by saying, "Strap on a Block IIa solar array on a Block I bird and it'll last 20 years".
The launch schedule is planned around these predicted end of life time periods. We collect State of Health (SOH) data on every pass, since we go up on each satellite at least once or twice a day. This data helps with long term trending and will alert the engineers if it looks like a bird is going to die early.
When the bird gets to the point it can't maintain its attitude (Z-Axis pointing +/- 2 degrees, at the center of the Earth), or the electrical system is failing (either due to batteries and/or solar arrays), then a end of life burn is scheduled. The satellite is spun up, so that eletricity and hyrodzine is no longer needed to keep the satellite stabilzed, and then it's boosted as far out as it's feasible as to make it's operational slot in the orbit reusable.
In case anyone is curious about the stabilization, the satellites use 4 reactor wheels mounted on a pyramid shaped structure. Basicly, picture 4 flywheels spinning on the Egyptian Pyramids (but smaller, course!). One wheel can fail, and the other three can still keep the satellite 3-axis stabilized. GPS satellites keep the "bottom" of the satellite always pointing to Earth, as that's where the primary L-Band (what you use to get your GPS positioning) and S-band (what the AF uses to perform command and control, etc) antennas. There are electro-magnets that use computer modeling of the magnetic fields around the earth to dissipate stored energy in the reaction wheels. Otherwise, the wheels would eventually spin up to their max and no longer be correcting. Thruster firings are not an option, as it's too drastic a manueuver to maintain a precise positioning signal. A thruster firing will cause the satellite to flag it's data as not usable (almanac data).
Hope this was interesting....
John
Re:space junk? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only problem is that the space junk can be traveling a few hundred mph relative to each other, so it can make for some pretty spectacular collisions should it ever happen (and its been speculated that certain impressions and chips in the Hubble, for example, were caused by "paint chips", although I'd speculate it's just comet dust or other natural space debris).
But really, the odds of two bigger-than-a-breadbox man-made objects colliding in orbit has to be astronomically small (forgive the pun). I just don't get what the big fuss is about.
Re:space junk? (Score:3, Informative)
The problem isn't the big stuff, it's the small things. Taking your example of collisons, suppose you have a small piece of metal colliding wi
Re:space junk? (Score:5, Informative)
But in reality, space does not clear after an explosion near our planet. The fragments continue circling the Earth, their orbits crossing those of other objects. Paint chips, lost bolts, pieces of exploded rockets--all have already become tiny satellites, traveling at about 27,000 kilometers per hour, 10 times faster than a high-powered rifle bullet. A marble traveling at such speed would hit with the energy of a one-ton safe dropped from a three-story building. Anything it strikes will be destroyed and only increase the debris.
With enough orbiting debris, pieces will begin to hit other pieces, fragmenting them into more pieces, which will in turn hit more pieces, setting off a chain reaction of destruction that will leave a lethal halo around the Earth. To operate a satellite within this cloud of millions of tiny missiles would be impossible: no more Hubble Space Telescopes or International Space Stations. Even communications and GPS satellites in higher orbits would be endangered. Every person who cares about the human future in space should also realize that weaponizing space will jeopardize the possibility of space exploration.
and
These satellites are already at increasing risk from space debris. At any moment, only about 200 kilograms of meteoroid mass are within 2,000 kilometers of the Earth's surface. But within this same altitude range are roughly 3 million kilograms of orbiting debris introduced by human activities, most from about 3,000 spent rocket stages and now-inactive satellites. Most of the approximately 4,000 additional objects several centimeters in size or larger resulted from the fragmentation of more than 120 satellites.
That's from Bullitin of the atomic scientists [thebulletin.org], the article is talking about the impact of SDI defense on increasing the danger but the general problem exists even without the additional clutter from ABM technology.
Re:space junk? (Score:2)
GPS satellites will stay in orbit for thousands of years. While they'll drift somewhat from their perfect orbits quickly, orbits at 11,000 miles are practically forever. You haven't noticed the moon's orbit decaying, and it has run out of maneuvering fuel quit
Re:space junk? (Score:2)
Atomized means it became a plasmacloud that by the time it cools down it may recombine to a gas. Harmless particles much smaller than paint chips. So what's the problem?
Re:space junk? (Score:3, Funny)
Obviously spoken by a person with a firm grasp of orbital mechanics and orbital energy levels.
Re:space junk? (Score:2)
Re:space junk? (Score:2)
Saying "why don't we just send it to the sun?" makes about as much sense as saying "Why can't I use these two paper cups and a string to get a 100 Gbps network connection?"
Re:Purely a temporary glitch (Score:5, Informative)
Get over the ambiguous wording.
Re:Purely a temporary glitch (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, it's not even the 50th GPS satellite up there; prior to this launch, there were only 28 operational satellites [navy.mil]. None of the original 11 [navy.mil] are still in service, and one of the other 38 [navy.mil] blew up on the launchpad.
So, while this is the 50th GPS satellite, it's only the 49th launch.