Mars Rover Sniffs First Hint of Water? 479
mhw25 writes "It is reported that the Mars rover Spirit is already well into its scientific mission, and may be detecting hints of water. The mini-Thermal Emission Spectrometer has returned its first image, with probable evidence of carbonates and hydrated minerals. We may know more after the rover rolls off its landing base, after making a 120 degree turn to avoid the airbag blocking its front ramp, to start analyses on soil from Thursday or Friday. An ongoing intrigue is already developing - a scientist reckoned that some of the soil around the airbag 'looks like mud, but it can't be mud'."
Culture (Score:5, Funny)
Where there is water, there may also be a brewery. These Martians may be eons ahead of us..
Re:Culture (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Culture (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Culture (Score:3, Funny)
intrigue (Score:5, Interesting)
In a bioengineering course I took once we were playing around with various materials prior to creating various cements and I found that many very fine grained ultra dry powders exhibited qualities one might presume were qualities exhibited in mud. Specifically, the appearance of folding up in waves like there were some bonding force holding things together when pushed. Applying various degrees of static charges to the materials appeared to amplify these effects allowing for clumping as well.
I am curious though as to why they dont think it could be mud if they are indeed suspicious of water being present?
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Informative)
because as far as we can tell water cant exist in a liquid state on mars.
Re:intrigue (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, but how much water is the question. Certainly atmospheric pressures would indicate that large volumes of water may not be possible unless they were seeping or somehow otherwise protected from atmospheric effects. So, a correlative question might also be, how much water would be required for particle wetting to provide enough cohesiveness? I don't really know and my background is not in materials science but if the dust particles were small enough, perhaps a few water molecules could provide enough van der walls forces to hold the material together enough to resemble mud?
Re:intrigue (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:intrigue (Score:5, Funny)
0 F is the stabilized temperature when equal amounts of ice, water, and salt are mixed and 96 F is the temperature "when the thermometer is held in the mouth or under the armpit of a living man in good health."
Re:intrigue (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it is easier to visualize the freezing/boiling point of water as a reference in the same way it is easier to visualize 1 litre of water weighing 1 kilo.
but that's me
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Informative)
Fahrenheits are obsolete (Score:3, Insightful)
That's why when talking about robots on mars its utterly absurd.
0 F is roughly the coldest temperature people most people experience in
I'm Canadian you short-sleeved wuss!
I bet you've never walked out to find that all the humidity in you nose froze up all at once when you inhaled...some people never lived.
And I think that most of humanity actually lives in tropical climes, where 0F pretty much never happens.
and 100 F the hottest (obviously t
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Informative)
I've been inspired to rip your argument apart bit by bit. So here goes.
0 F is roughly the coldest temperature people most people experience in and 100 F the hottest (obviously there are greater extremes, but we're talking about the bulk of the population). 0 F is basically really cold and 100 F is really hot.
India's population tips the scales at just over 1 billion, not a small number of people I would say. They g
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Informative)
So even if you do have 1 deg C temperatures, the pressure is such that you're already above the boiling point of water and hence no liquid water.
Re:intrigue (Score:2)
Re:intrigue (Score:4, Informative)
Re: clay? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:intrigue (Score:5, Insightful)
Nasa doesn't like to operate that way. They don't want to finger a suspect and look at only proof that it's what they're after. Instead, they want to look at all the data and try to learn everything they can.
Seems to me they're just avoiding being overly zealous in their approach. In the process of proving something does exist, you risk avoiding the evidence that it doesn't.
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Informative)
surface temp graph [nasa.gov]
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Insightful)
But how many water molecules do you need for ice crystal formation? Also atmospheric pressures are low indicating much liquid water would sublimate rather quickly. However if there were just a few water molecules interspersed relatively uniformly amongst the dust particles you might not get ice formation per se. Rather you might get an extra degree of molecular bonding allowing for a cohesiveness of fine gr
Re:intrigue (Score:5, Informative)
Real surface temp graph [asu.edu]
Re:intrigue (Score:3, Interesting)
As a Minnesota native . . . (Score:5, Funny)
My real question, as someone who has camped outdoors in very cold temperatures, is this: could the combination of a shallow (half-meter) trench, a heavy-duty lean-to, and a heavy-duty sealed winter sleeping back (along with oxygen, of course) get one through the night?
Also, as Minnesotans are well-known for their masochistic, 'can-do' approach to weathering winter weather, are there any Minnesotans planned for the manned Mars mission?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Black Gold, Texas Tea (Score:2, Funny)
Re:intrigue (Score:5, Informative)
Is the reason it "can't be mud" that it would have shown up as such in previous spectroscopic analyses from orbit?
Re:what's mud? (Score:5, Informative)
Mud traditionally implies an element of H20 though, so I think scientists would have to be somewhat anal about classifying it as such. The implications for saying water can currently exist at the surface of Mars is quite staggering for all sorts of scientific reasons.
Judging from the pictures (though I have nothing to scale it too), much of the material looks very very fine grained, in the realm of medium grained silt to clay sized particles. But without the presence of H20, that is all they are, just silt or clay (note, using the Wentworth Scale, clay indicates the finest grains).
Now the processes that created these fine silts and clays are very indicative of having sometime of wet environment that broke down materials into these fine grains.
This Just In (Score:5, Funny)
More breaking news as it becomes available. Thank you.
Re:This Just In (Score:3, Funny)
Re:This Just In (Score:5, Interesting)
In fact, it is only within that last 40 or so years that one of them was known to be primarily water ice, and the other was known to be primarily dry ice (ie., frozen CO2).
The significance of today's discovery is that there is more evidence that there was liquid water (not just ice) present when some of the rocks around the Rover were formed.
Re:This Just In (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This Just In (Score:2, Informative)
You don't have to have water to have ice. The caps are made of frozen carbon dioxide.
Re:This Just In (Score:3, Informative)
Although there are many examples of situations where life on earth exists in very extreme conditions. EG , very hot deep sea thermal vents, or in very cold conditions in the earths Ice caps. If we can find flowing water , or evidence therof. Th
Re:This Just In (Score:3, Insightful)
And if it did? So what?
The "What" is if proof of even simple microorganisms is found (whether in fossil or extant organic form), that proves that life on Earth is not a singular event and lends credence to the notion that life might be widespread throughout the Universe.
That would be a huge beginning to an answer to a question which Mankind has posited since it developed an ability to form questions.
So yeah, it's pretty important.
Re:Maybe not H20 (Score:5, Informative)
The permanent Martian ice caps are just that, water ice. They expand and shrink seasonally, with much of the winter increase being CO2 ("dry") ice. In the Martian summers the poles are too warm for CO2 ice, in the Martian winters, too cold for some of the atmospheric CO2 not to freeze out. (So yes, at any given time, one pole is mostly water ice, the other mostly (covered with) dry ice -- except in spring and fall when the CO2 is changing poles -- which is also when you tend to get planetary dust storms. Imagine that.)
This has been more or less known since some astronomer first pointed a spectrometer at Mars, and largely confirmed by subsequent observation and exploration.
The only real discussion is the percentages of same, and how much (if any) water or water ice is in the soil further from the poles.
Can This Thing Drill Through the Crust? (Score:3, Funny)
So let me get this right... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:So let me get this right... (Score:3, Informative)
Gotta remember (Score:5, Funny)
Well, that and a 1x4x9 ebon slab.
Re:Gotta remember (Score:2)
Actually, as I recall (from one of the books), it was a 1 x 4 x 9 x 16 x 25 x 36 x... slab. It was just that the perceptions of our simian ancestors were limited to three dimensions.
"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:2, Interesting)
"It looks like mud, but it can't be mud.
I skimmed the article, and did not see it explained anywhere. Why, exactly, can it not be mud?
Thanks in advance!
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:3, Informative)
Mud is water spatially mixed with soil, but not chemically bonded. It would freeze (as we saw in Boston, when they froze the soil for three years straight to prevent it from collapsing during the Big Dig).
--Dan
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I think you're wrong on both points here, in Gusev, during the daytime, it's warmer on the surface than it is where I live right now, and the rivers here still flow, my cat's water bowl doesn't freeze over, and it rains regularly. Once you get a few feet off the surface it's a different story, but th
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Dissociation of water?? : -1 Wrong (Score:4, Informative)
This is what P-T diagrams are all about. Here's one for water [tpub.com]. Note that there is a region where you can go straight from solid water (ice) to water vapor (steam) - sublimation. This is what would happen, in short order, to ice on mars. Unless, of course, it was bonded to soil or another molecucle (hydrous form) rather than being molecular water.
But I'm not a chemist...
Re:Dissociation of water?? : -1 Wrong (Score:3, Informative)
*** CORRECTION TO BAD SCIENCE IN PARENT POST *** (Score:5, Informative)
Each water molecule is polarised (quite strongly as it happens): although it is overall electrically neutral, one end is rather positive and the other end is rather negative. You get residual interactions between the positive end of one molecule and the negative end of the next one along. When the water molecules are extremely cold they are held in a lattice structure by these residual dipole moments. This is ice. When you add some heat the water molecules jiggle around, and eventually have enough energy to break the lattice and move around freely, though they are still attracted to each other because of the electrical dipoles. This is water. Add some more heat energy and the jiggling water molecules move so fast that they have enough kinetic energy to break out of the energy well of the intermolecular bonds. They can move around at will and each molecule can go where it wants. This is water vapour. The temperature at which these changes occur depends on pressure for reasons that you can go and look up.
What you see as steam when a kettle boils is actually liquid water that cools and recondenses into countless tiny droplets above the kettle's spout.
Names of the states of water (Score:3, Informative)
solid (ice)
liquid (liquid water)
gas (water vapor)
Steam is actually an aerosol form of liquid water. In other words, it is microscopic liquid water droplets suspended in the air.
Steam quickly evaporates, i.e., converts to water vapor.
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:3, Informative)
It's not exactly that the atoms themselves are slightly charged, and I no longer trust my memory of Chemistry enough to explain further. Suffice to say, it is the electrostatic force of attraction between the protons and the electrons that bind the hydrogen and oxygen atoms together to form water molecules. It's more like they "share" an electron each, though, than that they're charged.
The water molecules *are* charged, though, due to their sh
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:3, Informative)
Not to be pedantic, but they are both chemical reactions, and so incapable of destroying matter. What you'll get is one bunch of compounds (eg carbon) turning into another (eg carbon dioxide).
It requires a nuclear reaction to actually annihilate matter and turn it completely into energy. The energy released in a chemical reaction comes from breaking/making bonds between atoms and molecules, not from breaking down the atoms themselves.
Re:"Looks like mud, but it can't be mud" ??? (Score:2)
hydrated minerals? (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't that what commets are primarily composed of? I fully expect H2O molecules to be present on Mars and every other planet. This should not be a suprise to anyone.
Re:hydrated minerals? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:hydrated minerals? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, not exactly. Yes, water is present on comets. However, the H2O present on comets is primarily in a solid state. IOW, it's not fit to react with surrounding minerals (at least not in any sizeable quantities). So, yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to find trace amounts of water on Mars. However, the presence of large hydrated material deposits requires that this water be present in liquid form for relatively long periods of time.
breaking news (Score:5, Funny)
Good news, bad news (Score:5, Funny)
Tidying (Score:5, Funny)
Looks like our previous visits have made them clean up for company.
When will they learn (Score:2)
Cold fusion, anyone?
Re:When will they learn (Score:3, Interesting)
If they tried to keep it under wraps, the Area 51ers would be accusing NASA of a coverup. Besides, it's pretty tough to keep any sort of secret these days, and it's probably better to put out some bad info and have to retract it than having leakers with their own agendas putting out a distorted and fragmented view.
Re:When will they learn (Score:5, Insightful)
Even once it has been released into the peer reviewed world, it will be sensationalized. How many times has there been a panacea cure for cancer published in Science? If you read the NYT, you'd say dozens. If you read Science, you'd say never.
They haven't! (Score:4, Informative)
At each conference they've been careful to explain that there are many competing theories at the moment, only *some* of which require the action of liquid water. I guess that didn't really filter through to the media, though. If you get NASA TV in your area, check out the briefings. They're broadcast live at 9am PST, 12 noon EST, repeated on C-SPAN 1 around 4pm EST (usually), and are very informative, presentations and questions alike. Except for one reporter from Astronomy Magazine, who alternately makes me laugh and throw heavy objects at the screen.
Wake me when it finds beer (Score:2, Funny)
yes, well (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, just like that picture of a rock from mars looks like a face but can't be a face, and that picture of that smoke looks like the image of satan, etc...
So what if it just looks like mud? It's a freaking lo-res black and white photograph! I'll be intrigued when you say It feels like mud and is a mixture of soil and water, but it can't be mud!
Re:yes, well (Score:3, Informative)
Re:yes, well (Score:5, Informative)
It can't be mud because of physics. Water cannot exist in free form in the surface of Mars because it would simply evaporate instantly (at least in most locations). Temperature and atmospheric pressure are the usual suspects here. And we do know what those are with a relatively high degree of certainty. Ergo, it can't be mud. It must be some sort of wacky sand, like montmorillonite. Data from the Mariner probes has detected a few dozen types of this clay. Maybe this is one we haven't seen before.
Water, if found, will be either in the poles or trapped in molecule-sized amounts in rocks under the surface, nominally because of some sort of organism like microscopic algae or fungus keeps it there as part of its organic cycle. The idea goes that if you find water there you're also likely to find some type of primitive life.
But I suggest we let the thing dig holes and stuff before we get all excited =)
You might think there is water... (Score:3, Funny)
Best page for up to the minute news? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Best page for up to the minute news? (Score:5, Informative)
I'd have to say Gusev Crater, but if you can't make it there, you could try this jpl (has all images & press releases) [nasa.gov] or this other jpl site (has more articles) [nasa.gov]. Don't miss the 3D model they've built of the site [nasa.gov]
Re:Best page for up to the minute news? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Best page for up to the minute news? CLICK HERE (Score:5, Informative)
For news, status, updates, scientific info, images, video, and more, check out:
Mars Exploration Rover Highlights (AXCH) [axonchisel.net].
This site has TONS of great links, animations, movies, cartoons, news, and everything else. I hit it and branch off from there many times a day.
Don't jump (Score:5, Interesting)
As an example. One of my geology profs was studying an outcropping of calcium-rich meta-igneous rock (meta basalt). He kept finding a mix of calcium oxalate minerals on the surface of the rock in numerous places, but couldn't understand how they would be a weathering product. Oxalate minerals are unusual in nature.
Then it dawned on him. Oxalates are common in kidney stones. He bought a live trap and captured several wild rats. Then he kept them in a lab and realized they like to urinate in the same place. What appeared to be a strange chemical weathering reaction was actually just evaporated rat urine.
Point is, first impressions may be incorrect and additional data and study leads to more accurate conclusions. Sometimes those later conclusions are more interesting (or comical) than the original hypothesis.
Re:Don't jump (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Don't jump (Score:5, Funny)
That doesn't make any sense, because if there's no water, then what are the Martian rats drinking in the first place? See, it's gotta be something else.
Please, please, please... (Score:5, Funny)
Water (Score:5, Informative)
The kinda cool thing is the TES data [asu.edu] shows a current temperature map at surface level - you notice at Gusev Crater (where spirit is, about 15S, 185W - so basically around halfway down the right edge of the picture) the temperature is somewhere around 0C, +/-10 degrees or so.
The *really* cool thing is, when they were getting ready to make the rover stand up and strut its stuff, they went through extra checks and testing on Earth because the landing site was a lot warmer than they expected - there's every chance that it's above 0 there, in fact, there's every chance that (on the surface at least) Spirit is enjoying much better weather than I am right now.
It's common knowledge that Mars' equator regularly gets up into the positive numbers, even up above 20c, the only real question as to the feasibility of liquid water in these regions is whether there is any ice left there to melt, or if it is all up at the poles (or underground). Due to the low triple point of water on Mars, and the theory that it's just coming out of an ice-age, there's every chance there is no liquid left around there to melt, but there's certainly a chance there is.
Fortunately, we have a rover up there that will be able to tell us for sure in a few days
Re:Water (Score:5, Informative)
This is correct -- in Spirit's vicinity, the water content is something like a few percent of the soil. This is exciting not because it's news that there's water in the Martian soil (we knew that already, from Odyssey measurements), but because there's water where we are -- it means Spirit has water right under her feet. Also because it's "ground truth" for the orbital measurements.
The higher temperatures are probably due to the (clearing) dust storm. Spirit is almost too warm, which is about the last problem we ever expected to have (but I'd rather have this problem than most others I can think of!).
Incidentally, there probably is liquid water on Mars -- or, more precisely, under Mars; it's all in the range of 100m to 2km below the soil. Surface water would sublime.
Still waiting to drive ....
Re:Water (Score:5, Interesting)
The triple point (at which solid, gas, and liquid phases are in equilibrium) doesn't change from planet to planet; it's a fixed temperature and pressure pair for any given material.
For water, the triple point is 273.16 K at 611.2 Pa. That pressure is about twice the highest found in the lowest parts of the Martian surface. As a result, any liquid water on the surface will very quickly change phase to ice, vapor, or (most likely) some of both phases.
The nice thing for would-be Martian terraformers is that you only have to double Mars's surface pressure to begin to make liquid water stable in low-lying parts of the surface. Even there, it would freeze solid every night and most days, but you'd get *some* periods where the water might stay liquid for hours at a time during the local afternoon.
Mud on Mars? (Score:5, Funny)
Microscope needed! (Score:5, Interesting)
All and all, I don't understand why a range of microscopes has not been standard issue on all Mars lander missions.
Re:Microscope needed! (Score:5, Informative)
These will provide plenty of targets for the rover to study up close with its suite of instruments, which include a rock-grinder and microscope and a Mossbauer spectrometer.
Synopsis: There IS a microscope on Spirit.
Looks like mud, but can't be mud! (Score:5, Funny)
As a lowly engineer... (Score:5, Interesting)
I know I don't have a clue what I'm talking about (hence posting to
Re:As a lowly engineer... (Score:3, Insightful)
Mark
as we know it... (Score:5, Informative)
its hypothesized you could base life on some other elements (like silicon), but since we've never seen it, we wouldn't even know *how* to look for it, much less recognize it if we did, short of a silicon based life form seen moving around...
Possible Mud Theory ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course... by now though, it'll be frozen again.
Planting Life (Score:5, Interesting)
Aren't there certain bacteria that can survive the long, harsh trip through space? What if they were attached since liftoff, survived the trip through space, survived the burn in the thin atmosphere, and wound up being deposited in a somewhat moist area? Even if there wasn't MUCH water, if there was SOME water, they could, in theory, manage to survive slightly under the surface. Even the tiniest petri dish could wind up with a breeding ground for life on Mars and so long as there's some atmosphere to contain the water and the gases emitted by the bacteria, it could be a spark for future life on Mars.
Sorry if I'm rambling illogically. I'm not well versed in the Martian atmosphere, so feel free to shoot my naive, young hopes down if I'm totally out in left field.
Re:Planting Life (Score:5, Informative)
For whatever reason, NASA was reluctant to bake Pathfinder/Sojourner which landed in 1997 and instead baked bits and pieces (antennae, solar panels, parachute, etc.), and cleaned the rest (antibacterial windex, I guess) so that Pathfinder was "clean enough" - i.e., within the international guidelines.
I haven't found any info regarding the Spirit and Opportunity or the lost missions that may have impacted, however it's fair to assume that they, like Pathfinder and Mars Polar Lander (now in its own crater somewhere) went through some decontamination before launch, but Mars Climate Orbiter that burned on aerobraking gone awry was intended to orbit, not land, and may have not been so assiduously decontaminated. Like the famous Apollo example where astronauts retrieved a sneezed-on camera lens from a previous unmanned probe that still harbored some bugs, life is more hearty that we think.
Re:Planting Life (Score:5, Insightful)
One particularly nasty thing about Martian soil (and one that would preclude planting most Earth plants -- even in greenhouses using Martian soil) is the high concentration of superoxides in the soil, making it like OxyClean. Earth's extremophiles, however, make me wary about making blanket statements that "life couldn't evolve or exist" in those conditions.
What would really set everyone off.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Ugly bags of mostly water? (Score:3, Funny)
Soon life will be found. (Score:4, Informative)
Stick in the mud... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm guessing that it may be possible that there is thermal activity just under the surface of the landing site which is keeping the surface warm enough to have "mud" and possibly some sort of underground water deposit that is seeping through the ground in this area...
But I guess the NASA scientists are better at this than my arm-chair quarterback approach...
Then again, I can just see the press conference..."We found water on Mars"..."The rover got stuck in the mud"...
Good: Mars Exploration Rover Highlights (AXCH) (Score:3, Informative)
Mars Exploration Rover Highlights (AXCH) [axonchisel.net].
This has links to tons of great information, images, QuickTimeVR, 3d images, videos, history, cartoons, and lots more about Mars and this MER Spirit mission in particular. Great as a springboard to look up more info as these issues (mud, water, etc.) come up.
Making News (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, the quote was elicited only when one of the reporters there asked "to me it looks like mud, any chance it could be". The reply was that although it might look like mud, it couldn't be, followed by a description of the behavior of fine particles (they can flow, etc.).
I'd say that to use this as a quote that "scientists say" it looks like mud is a bit disingenuous.
air bag? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:air bag? (Score:3, Interesting)
From Airbag Guidelines [terc.org]. None of this, of course, necessarily has any bearing on the Mars landers, nor would the extremely rapid inflation typical of automotive airbags be necessary. Something like a
Re:How are we supposed to know (Score:4, Informative)
If you REALLY believe that the US govt could maintain a fiction on such a scale, without word ever leaking, then my posting this is probably a waste of typing.
If you want access to the raw data streams, file a FOIA request. Or go build a 'scope and listen to them for yourself. You can be _pretty_ sure the latter signals aren't doctored. Unless, of course, all this 'data' was simply pre-programmed before launch, right?
I knew the
Re:How are we supposed to know (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't. You're a conspiracy theorist, and can't be convinced of anything.
the MER team knew the exact results that they wanted this mission to produce years before launch
And similarly, you conspiracy theorists have already decided that the Mars landings which haven't even begun being built yet are fake.
Really? The ICR would disagree... (Score:4, Interesting)
The Institute for Creation Research, ICR, a conservative Christian group, would have you believe otherwise. In fact, they would hold that you are not a true Christian unless you believe the Bible to be absolute and inerrant.
See their comments on life on other planets here:
www.icr.org/bible/bhta31.html
Also, note that I said conservative Christians, considered to be a small but influencial part of Christianity. There are many denominations to Christianity -- Baptists, Evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, Church of Christ, etc., so perhaps you need to look it up yourself:
www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Despite what you say, many Christian groups, conservative or otherwise, view exploration for life on other planets anywhere from skepticism to outright heresy and have used their influence in the current administration to steer policy that is in many ways hostile to science and independant investigation.
My comment was that I am surprised that more attention has not been drawn by religious groups on science that has the potential to bring some of their most treasured tenets into disrepute. There are implications to life on other planets beyond their scientific discovery, you can't call me ignorant for pointing that out.