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Space Science

Mars Sundials - True Colors, Ambiguous Hours 184

Posted by timothy from the painted-desert-is-timed-too dept.
An anonymous reader writes "NASA's Astrobiology Magazine today has an interview with Bill Nye, the Science Guy, who spearheaded the first interplanetary sundial, which will land on Mars in early January. The Cornell sundial inscription reads "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages [including ancient Sumerian and Mayan], and was selected over such historical mottos as one French sundial that reads: "Every hour injures; the last one kills". The sundials were an inspired transformation of a needed [mainly orange-pink] color wheel to calibrate the Mars' panoramic cameras to give true Martian colors, but so resembled the shadow-casting time pieces, that Nye took it over to become an internet-updated interplanetary dial." Read on for some more.
Our reader continues: "There are no conventional hour lines at all on these dials, because unlike regular sundials, they are on moving platforms. Nye says: 'Before people figured this out back in the first era of Mars probes (also the first Disco Era) the images from the Viking spacecraft were too pink or orange. Those "over-pink" images still show up in Mars science fiction movies and Mars-themed posters and restaurant walls. One of the charming challenges is roughly, "What is an hour on Mars?" Is it a "Mour?" Is it a "quadraduodeci-sol," a twenty fourth of a sol, a Mars day? ' The interview recounts the Apollo 12 controversy over whether one of the first lunar probes, Surveyor, returned viable contaminants to Earth."
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Mars Sundials - True Colors, Ambiguous Hours More

Mars Sundials - True Colors, Ambiguous Hours

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  • And then it doesn't work. Or it blows up.

    Sound familiar Bill?

  • See Jane run, run Jane run. (Score:4, Funny)

    by malakai ( 136531 ) * on Thursday October 09, 2003 @12:53AM (#7169255) Journal
    At some future point, when human existence is long forgotten, some entity will find this [cornell.edu] plaque long since buried in the martian dust, and think to themselves "My god, what shitty artist they were".

    Seriously, i'm not a big fan of UI design, what being a programmer and all, but come on, shell out five grand for something better than squiggly "see jane run" pictures of people. Or hell, at least use better stick figures. I'm sure the whole development team has access to MS products and can grab the annoying clip-art stick figures we see in every fookin slide at a conference. I swear if I see another image of a stick figure guy scratching his head on the slide entitiled "Any Questions?" I'm going to start shooting people...

    • I think they got elementary school kids to draw those pictures.

      oh wait, you're being hilarious. my bad
      • they look cute but...
        If anyone really thinks some martians or aliens in general might read it surely they could have put more useful information on it than some sickly sweet rambling and childrens pictures.

        Something like a rosetta stone....
        • noone really thinks aliens will see it. And we pretty much know there's no martians.

          If an alien race came a bazillion light years to mars, and didn't notice earth with all its satellites and radio waves, well then, the pre-school drawings and poetry will be way over their head.

          • noone really thinks aliens will see it. And we pretty much know there's no martians.

            If an alien race came a bazillion light years to mars, and didn't notice earth with all its satellites and radio waves, well then, the pre-school drawings and poetry will be way over their head.

            Yes but you forget.. when they make it to earth it will be an irradiated cinder, and since shortsighted politicians did not see any value in the space program beyond military ventures nothing will be left of our civilization but

        • In reading I also found that unlike the slashdot description claims it only says "two worlds, one sun" in english.

          Each sundial is inscribed with the words "Two Worlds, One Sun" and bears the name "Mars" in 17 languages, including Bengali, Inuktituk, Lingala and Malay-Indonesian, as well as ancient Sumerian and Mayan.


          So its only got "mars" in 17 languages.

          • Re:See Jane run, run Jane run. (Score:1, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward
            Am I the only one that thinks having the same message(or same word) in 17 languages is going to keep those alien linguists scratching their heads a while? Like they are supposed to KNOW that those are all different languages, and not all different words from the SAME language. I, for one, would not like to decode something like that if I had no idea what it was in the frist place.
            • Actually, having the same message in several languages is very useful (see the Rosetta stone). Even with only a relatively small number of words it is relativly easy to distinguish different languages, even if you have never seen either of them.
        • "...Rosetta stone."

          Didn't you read "Omnilingual"? Send them an elementary math textbook, dude!

    • Re:See Jane run, run Jane run. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Have Blue ( 616 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:04AM (#7169295) Homepage
      The images aren't meant to be realistic, they're meant to be representational. The images mean that humans have a torso, a smaller head, and 4 limbs in upper and lower pairs. Remember that these plaques may be seen by entities with no concept of shading, muscles, or any other style of art that we either innately comprehend due to our brain's "greedy" pattern recognition or have learned to accept as part of our years of seeing images. Every single element of the drawing must have a precise and unique meaning.

      Although, the plaques carried by Voyager and Pioneer used more realistic artwork.
      • I agree on some level.

        In the impossible chance a being finds a picture of caveman figures on a probe, they probably wouldn't be able to understand it, let alone somethign even more complicated.

        At least they have the right idea and used a plaque. If they had used a normal image, aliens probably wouldn't see it at all, depending on the chances of them seeing in the same spectrum of colors that we see. Even more likely, as stated by parent, their pattern recognition would be different etc., etc. There's mill

      • Re:See Jane run, run Jane run. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by nacturation ( 646836 ) <nacturation AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday October 09, 2003 @04:46AM (#7169968) Journal
        The images aren't meant to be realistic, they're meant to be representational. The images mean that humans have a torso, a smaller head, and 4 limbs in upper and lower pairs. Remember that these plaques may be seen by entities with no concept of shading, muscles, or any other style of art that we either innately comprehend due to our brain's "greedy" pattern recognition or have learned to accept as part of our years of seeing images. Every single element of the drawing must have a precise and unique meaning.

        So some future entity will think that all the creatures depicted in those crude drawings must be a lifeform that exists solely by being chained together at the arms. There's not one example of a human existing on its own. Just look at it again. [cornell.edu] Every depiction of a human is done through joining of two or more people at the hands. They would think we're some kind of chained lifeform.

        Granted, an alien being may not have any concept of shading, muscles, etc. but neither did the six year old who drew those pictures. If the goal is to have every single element stand on its own and be uniquely defined, surely they could come up with something non-stick figure. Even a simple silhouette would be orders of magnitude better. And your argument falls apart anyway. In the first image strip, the people on the left have torsos. The people on the right have no torsos. One person on the right has a triangular hip, whereas nobody else in that strip has a triangular hip. How are they to know a triangular lower part means a skirt and, hence, the stick figure must therefore be the child-bearing member of the species? And look at the bottom image. There's not even a remotely accurate sense of scale. The first person is a tiny neckless balloon on top of a large balloon, out of which huge disproportionate sticks protrude. On the right of that bottom image strip, there's another triangle hip person joined to a big fat person where the triangle represents the torso and hip and most of the legs too, leaving only stubby feet. And god only knows what the hell is dangling from the fat triangle's arms. Is that supposed to be a purse? A dog?

        Precise and unique meaning, my ass!


    • > At some future point, when human existence is long forgotten, some entity will find this plaque long since buried in the martian dust, and think to themselves "My god, what shitty artist they were".

      Better we should have sent the Phaistos Disk [wikipedia.org], to unleash a plague of kooks saturating their internet with claims of having deciphered it.

    • "My god, what shitty artist they were".

      The stick figures were made by the kids of some people on the team. At least that was what I heard via the grapevine.

    • Talking of shitty artists, I noticed this sundial is the equivalent of the spot painting on Beagle II [beagle2.com]. The Beagle II device is also intended for camera calibration, but they had theirs made by Brit-artist Damien Hirst [damienhirst.com], styled after his spot paintings that can be seen in places like Lot 61 [lot61.com] in NY.

      A lot of people think Hirst might just be spending his whole life taking the piss.

    • I swear if I see another image of a stick figure guy scratching his head on the slide entitiled "Any Questions?" I'm going to start shooting people...

      I would call that an argument against the export of Microsoft imagery to alien worlds. What if the Martians are a bunch of Linux h@xorz, see the PowerPoint influenced design, and decide that it'd be better to nuke us from orbit?
    • At some future point, when human existence is long forgotten, some entity will find this plaque long since buried in the martian dust, and think to themselves "My god, what shitty artist they were".

      Or, they'll look at it the same way we study stonehenge. Was it a primitive calender? ;-)

  • The obvious question is? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by dnotj ( 633262 )
    What time is it on Mars?

  • all that trouble.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by KiwiEngineer ( 585036 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @12:58AM (#7169269) Journal
    And they could have used a colour chart from a paint store with a digital watch taped to the side for the same effect.

    Occam's (spelling?) razor, people. Go for the simplest solution.
    • a sundial is many times less complex than a digital watch.

      You think you're 20 dollar "water resistant" timex can survive a trip to the red planet?


    • > Occam's (spelling?) razor, people. Go for the simplest solution.

      If Occam really believed in simplicity, he wouldn't have cast his razor in Latin.

    • According to Jodie Fostor in the movie Contact, it states that when faced with numerous different possible explanations for a mysterious phenomenon, the simplest one is likely the most plausible one. It is a Scientific premise. This is not the same as the Engineering principle that a simpler design is better than a complicated one.

      BTW, the simpler design of the Kalashnikov AK-47 rifle was what enabled the Vietcong to prevail over American soldiers equipped with the Stone M-16, which was more advanced.

      • Re:Occam's Razor (Score:2, Informative)

        by GooberToo ( 74388 )
        BTW, the simpler design of the Kalashnikov AK-47 rifle was what enabled the Vietcong to prevail over American soldiers equipped with the Stone M-16, which was more advanced.

        That's another myth. It was bad politics, plain and simple, that allowed the Vietcong to prevail. You try fighting a war where you can't bomb their factories, not allowed to destroy their air bases, weapon depots, or radar stations. You try winning a war where you can be jailed for actually attempting to win. You try winning a war

  • That's a relief... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:03AM (#7169290)


    > The Cornell sundial inscription reads "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages [including ancient Sumerian and Mayan]

    So when that Sumerian spaceship finally reaches Mars, they'll feel at home and know what time it is.

    • I read it as official confirmation that Chariots of the Gods was actually correct.

      Be right back -- I'm going to add another few layers to my tinfoil hat... :)

    • Future archaeologists will probably find the sundial and conclude that the sumerians and mayans actually had space travel and made it to mars. I mean, what other explanation would there be?

  • Bill Nye was like a hero to me... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ejito ( 700826 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:11AM (#7169332)
    Then they changed his time slot so it was during school hours. I guess they thought unemployed people would enjoy the show more than gradeschoolers. For a latchkey kid like me, it was shows put on by people like Bill that got me interested in science, along with my science inclined uncle.

    As for the sundial, I'm not exactly wetting myself, but it's not as stupid as other posters are making it out to be. If you're gonna do something trivial like color correction, you might as well spice it up and do it nerd style.
    • In 8th grade my science teacher got caught peeking into the girl's locker room within the first two months of the year. We had a string of substitutes then untill they settled on one to finish out the school year, and he didn't know much about science.

      We ended up just watching taped Bill Nye episodes almost every day. That class was awesome.

  • Why? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:13AM (#7169337)
    "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages [including ancient Sumerian and Mayan], and was selected over such historical mottos as one French sundial that reads: "Every hour injures; the last one kills".

    I can't imagine why, I mean that second motto is just such an optemistic and inspirational message to send to another world! I mean just repeat it to yourself,"Every hour injures; the last one kills," don't you feel better already?!

    • Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by critter_hunter ( 568942 ) <critter_hunter@hotm a i l .com> on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:39AM (#7169421)

      The actual saying is "Omnis vulnerat et ultima necat" and is, obviously, latin. "Chacune blesse, la derniere tue", or "Chaque heure blesse, la derniere tue" are but adaptations.

      Not really sure why they didn't go with the latin, at least *somewhere* on the sundial - I think the saying has been put on sundials since the Antiquity...

      • Re:Why? (Score:1)

        by slb ( 72208 ) *
        > The actual saying is "Omnis vulnerat et ultima necat"

        Almost ;-) It is in fact "Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat"

        I personnaly prefer this one : "Aspiciendo senescis"

        Also used by our Latin ancestors on their sundials it mean "While you watch me, you age"

    • Re:Why? (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Hey, c'mon now, look who it's from - this was the best choice. The French only submitted two for consideration. The other one said "We surrender..."

    • Re:Why? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I would think that for the first humans visiting Mars, the more appropriate inscription on the sundial would be:
      "If this is your only method of telling time on Mars, you're fucked."
    • Well, assuming that they understood the meaning behind the words after they deciphered them, it IS a good way of showing them that we shared something in common with them, mortality. Assuming of course they aren't immortal space jellyfish or something.

  • Check yer facts (Score:4, Informative)

    by Wonko42 ( 29194 ) <ryan+slashdot@[ ]ko.com ['won' in gap]> on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:32AM (#7169407) Homepage
    The Cornell sundial inscription reads "Two Worlds, One Sun" in 17 languages

    Actually, according to the article (there's even a picture where this is visible), the inscription "Two Worlds, One Sun" is in English only, and the word "Mars" is in 17 languages.

    • ... the inscription "Two Worlds, One Sun" is in English only, and the word "Mars" is in 17 languages.

      And sadly, Klingon is not one of them. And I have to ask: Would it make a difference to future Martians? :-)

  • Interesting Rover data (Score:4, Informative)

    by -tji ( 139690 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:40AM (#7169427) Journal
    Following a few links from the mission site, I found the answer to a question I had about the communications capabilities of the rovers.

    They can communicate directly back to Earth at a slow speed ( 3,500 to 12,000 bits/sec ) or they can communicate via the Mars orbiting spacecraft (Odyssey or Mars Global Surveyor) at a rate of 128,000 bits/sec. The orbiters are only 250 miles from the planet surface.

    Unfortunately, there was no information about protocols, encoding, or error correction schemes..

    Some good info is here: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mer/mission/communication s.html [nasa.gov]
    • The 2005 Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter [space.com] is supposed to be able to send a lot faster:

      In contrasting the huge data output expected from MRO, Graf said while present Mars missions are returning terrific data, "they are sending it over the equivalent of a dial-up modem line." "When we get to Mars, and at the planet's closest approach to Earth, we're going to be able to have the equivalent of two Digital Subscriber Lines (DSL). It's going to be an amazing amount of data coming back," Graf said.

      You can get DSL wit

    • "Unfortunately, there was no information about protocols, encoding, or error correction schemes.."

      They're going to use 802.11g with the Hubble Scope in place of the Pringles can.

    • Using mars-orbiting spacecraft (plural) for communication with earth is not a new thing: it's very efficient since the distance to the orbiter is small and the orbiter has big solar cells and can thus send a powerful signal back to earth.

      NASA has extensive plans to develop this scheme much further, the eventual goal being the Mars Network [nasa.gov] that, through a number of orbiters, will/should enable a "downlink" speed Mars->Earth of about 3 Tbit/Sol [nasa.gov] in 2015 (which is slightly less than 100 Mbps).

      This netwo

    • -tji: Mars orbiting spacecraft (Odyssey or Mars Global Surveyor) at a rate of 128,000 bits/sec

      See, I told you flat-rate ISDN is always the best solution when you can't get broadband! :-)

    • MER is using Consultative Committee for Space Data Systems protocols [ccsds.org] (although I'm not sure which parts of the protocol suite they are actually using). As far as error correction schemes go, they were considering using a CCSDS standard Turbo code. I'm not sure if that actually went through - if not they are probably using a Reed-Solomon code.
    • Unfortunately, there was no information about protocols, encoding, or error correction schemes..

      Well, I happen to work on MER as a software engineer, and I was consulted for an article on the Athena web site (athena.cornell.edu) on the communications system, but I'm certainly no expert.

      The X-Band system uses Binary Phase Shift Keying [rice.edu], which is a lot like the modulation used in QPSK (Used sometimes to send data upstream over cable as it is more resistant to noise) and 64QAM (Used to send data downstrea
  • I just looked up world in the dictionary and deffination #14 "A planet or other celestial body" sure Pluto has a bit of a struggle (unjust I may vote) but to siginify where we came from or even where we are at, I would think a decent representation of our solar system would be a good start. It is a nice touch but maybe the Europa(ian?) race of things that live under the ice are upset.

  • Mars' true colors (Score:3, Interesting)

    by moltar77 ( 708055 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @01:43AM (#7169435)
    I'm more excited about the use of these dials for photocalibration. Mars may or may not have a blue sky [mars-news.de], but at least we can know for sure with these things on their way [nasa.gov].
    • I'm a little confused by this.

      I have always assumed that the redness we see in pictures of Mars from the surface is due to airborne dust. Will this not tint the available light reddish, and cause objects to appear red? What is the photocalibrator calibrating? Are the cameras not, in fact, reporting an accurate (to the human eye) representation of the surroundings?

      Thanks for your edification.

      I don't pretend to understand optics. It's like electricity: Since I can't use a wrench to fix it, I'm happy t
  • Man, I remember when ol' Bill had his 5-minute bit on a local half-hour show in Seattle back in the day.

    It's cool to have seen him progress so far. Truly, the world needs more guys like Bill Nye, the science guy.

  • When someone wants to be really geeky and someone asks them the time, they can say "For where? Here, or on mars? AHAHAH! MARS! HAHAH! BET YOU WEREN'T EXPECTING THAT!"

  • Well, they could... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Kazuko ( 609482 )

    Just throw humans on there. I mean, all these rovers and probes, they could turn to research to enable humans to travel to mars, i.e. supplies storage/possible cold(cryo) sleep/faster propulsion, etc; There are enabling technologies out there and with physics horizons being redefined every day, there's no reason to say "Look. We've got pictures, we've got soil tests, we've got maps, we have a whole lot of stuff, but let's get on with it and focus on putting humans on Mars." Apparently it has some sort of th

    • Just throw humans on there.
      Yes, in theory, we could have done that in the seventies (by 'we', read NASA and the american taxpayers). The technology needed for a "there and back again" style of mission isn't substancially different from what you need to go to the moon, if you don't mind hanging around with a couple of buddies for, oh, around three years. In fact, NASA did play with the idea of a Mars flyby or landing [astronautix.com] using Appolo hardware.

      ...to enable humans to travel to mars...
      We already have that t

      • Done the math for you... (Score:3, Informative)

        by Otto ( 17870 )
        I suppose you mean 'propulsion allowing a higher terminal speed'. Todays chemical rockets are basicly 'burn, then coast'. You accelerate a lot for a while, then glide towards the target. A ion-engine or a nucular rocket will let you accelerate less but for a much longer time, meaning you'll get a higher terminal velocity. The providial Holy Grail for interplanitary missions would be an engine which would let you accelerate forever. Just think about it; you blast off into orbit, then turns on the flightengin
        • So yeah, if you had all the delta V you could handle, you could be there in under a couple days.

          I could be wrong but doesn't the Delta V rocket burn tons of fuel a second?

          Given that you need to fire the rocket for "150861.4717... seconds" wouldn't that be a fair bit of fuel?

          Say more fuel than would actually fit in a Delta V (or even all that were ever made)?

          • Delta V is not a reference to a spefisic rocket, but a measurement of change in velocity. To bad I can't use greek letters, but delta in this meaning looks like a pointy triangle with the point up.
            End velocity - initial velocity = Delta Velocity
            Or, more simply: V1-V0=DeltaV =)

            Your second point however is valid; there is no way we can hope to make a chemical rocket capabel of giving us unlimited DeltaV. One possible suggestion that has been proposed is a nucular or ion engine using interstellar hydrogen

          • Delta V isn't a rocket, it's a shorthand term for "change in velocity".

            Spaceships don't measure fuel in terms of tons or pounds or gallons.. Well, they could, I suppose, but a more sensible way to measure how much fuel you have left, when in space, is by how much change in velocity you've got left. Once you run out of the ability to change your velocity anymore, you're stuck at whatever speed and direction you happened to be going when you ran out.

            This is why spaceships don't make right turns, much less r

  • Hilaire Belloc's quote on sundials (Score:3)

    by alanw ( 1822 ) * <alan@wylie.me.uk> on Thursday October 09, 2003 @02:21AM (#7169554) Homepage
    I am a sundial
    and I make a botch
    of what is done far
    better by a watch!
  • My girlfriend thinks Nasa's going to arrive there and find the origins of my gender.
  • I thought that should be

    "Take Me TO Your Leader!!!"
  • If I recall, Bill Nye was a character on a Seattle-based comedy show called "Almost Live". He's actually educated, but the whole "Science Guy" character came from a comedy show. (And the kid's show started there.) And now he's heading up projects like this???

    That was about 15 years ago, so maybe people who remember will remember more clearly and call me an idiot. Other Slashdot readers will probably call me an idiot regardless...

  • Bill Nye, The Science Guy (Score:3, Funny)

    by pangu ( 322010 ) on Thursday October 09, 2003 @06:28AM (#7170274) Homepage
    Can anyone even say Bill Nye, without feeling a compulsion to add "The Science Guy"?
  • You know, with all these languages they have printed on this thing, you'd think they'd put it in Martian! ... what do you mean they don't know Martian?
  • Omnes Blessant Ultima Necat if I am not mistaken. it was ingraved on all roman sundial.
  • Obviously it's 3,600 seconds, same as everywhere else in the Universe. That is, the amount of time it takes for light to travel (300,000 - epsilon)km, 3600 times. Silly humans.

    A more useful question would be, "what is a useful way to divide up the Martian day?" The obvious answer is 10 decads, each composed of 100 centads. :-)
  • That's roman. Am I the only one who read "each hour hurts, the last one kills" and thought... hey, that's just a bad translation of "vulnerant omnia, ultima necat"?

    The original is better because it only says "each one hurts, the last one kills", adding "hours" makes it too obvious, and lessens the effect.

    If anyone said this already, sorry, I am not reading the comments if that prevents me from writing a pedantic nitpick.

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