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Science

Ring a Bell And I'll Salivate 160

Posted by michael from the i-scream dept.
mosch writes "Humans have been trained to yearn for ice cream in the same way as Pavlov's fabled bell. I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner."
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Ring a Bell And I'll Salivate More

Ring a Bell And I'll Salivate

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  • Vegans (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:19PM (#6767700)
    I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    What about a healthy human male yearning for a nice healthy vegan? ;-D

    • Re:Vegans (Score:5, Funny)

      by bad_fx ( 493443 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @04:57PM (#6769187) Journal
      Pfah, as everybody knows those Vegans are way too stringy. And so little meat on their bones... It really takes a master chef to prepare a half decent meal from one of them.

    • Re:Vegans (Score:3, Insightful)

      by I(rispee_I(reme ( 310391 )
      For those who have somehow managed to avoid these fools, Vegans are a group of new-age diet gurus who tell everyone who will listen that they are evil for eating meat. While there are many reasons to reduce the amount of meat in your diet, morality is not among them. Also, most "vegans" kill animals passively too. [xmission.com] The real vegans who actually believe their own hype all grow their own food and are all rail-thin from malnourishment. If you meet a vibrant, glowing person who tries to sell you on a vegan diet,

      • Re:Vegans (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        What FUD. Veganism has nothing at all to do with new-age thought. I am a vegan, and do not believe in any new-age thought. If you think the fact that some new-age people are vegans, and vice versa, means that one is a subset of the other, then I guess carnivores are also new age gurus, by your specious logic.

        Have you ever met any of these 'real vegans' in person? I have, and they are the healthiest people I've ever met. When you say they're rail-thin, I assume you mean they're not the normal fat-ass overw

      • Re:Vegans (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Nagatzhul ( 158676 )
        The only vegan/vegetarian I know who is healthy recently confided in me that she is not really a "full time" vegan. She says she is to stay with her current boy friend, but she eats meat when the cravings get too bad.

        Most of the folks I know have serious health problems of some kind. One individual whose immune system is failing was order by his doctor to start eating some kind of meat (beef or chicken). Instead of obeying the doctor's orders, he quit going to the doctor. He is constantly sick and has horr
        • The only vitamin that one can't get in a vegan diet is vitamin B12. Unless you're completely hardcore vegan, you can get that in supplements, or nutritional yeast.

          It's hard to do vegan, but not nearly as impossible as your FUD might suggest. I wouldn't want to be a vegan in the hills of the South, but in a big city, I'm sure you could find many, many vegan restaurants and food stores to help you along.

          By the way, I'm a vegetarian, and though I eat eggs and dairy, I do so sparingly, and I'm as healthy as I
        • was order by his doctor to start eating some kind of meat (beef or chicken).

          Unfortunately, many doctors are clueless about things outside there experience. Had the doctor done a bit of research, he would have found easy way's of getting proper nutrition from vegetable sources [americanheart.org].

      • Re:Vegans (Score:2, Interesting)

        by anthony_dipierro ( 543308 )

        Vegans are a group of new-age diet gurus who tell everyone who will listen that they are evil for eating meat.

        I know a lot of vegans, have conversations with them regularly, and not a single one has told me that I am evil for eating meat.

        If you meet a vibrant, glowing person who tries to sell you on a vegan diet, they're killing animals somewhere.

        We're all killing animals somewhere. Most vegans tend to kill fewer animals than others. That's not always true, of course. A person who regularly hunts

      • A guy I used to work with was a vegan. Funny thing was, on weekends he would go rabbit shooting. But of course he wouldn't eat the bunnies he shot. Then again, he would duck off to a vegetarian restaurant and order tofu that tasted like rabbit. We never did get along.
      • So morally the argument may be weak -- that does not prevent you from getting the better aspects of the Vegan diet.

        Just one fallacy does not a "fool" make.

        BTW I love diary products.
      • Vegans are a group of new-age diet gurus who tell everyone who will listen that they are evil for eating meat

        This is as silly as saying all computer scientists are socially inept geeks who tell everyone who will listen that they are stupid for using any Microsoft products.

        Every vegan and vegetarian I've met has considered their diet a personal choice, and not everyone does it for ethical reasons, many do it for health.

        Which brings me to my next point: the myth that vegan/vegetarian diets are inherentl [ufl.edu]

      • First of all, you're not evil for eating meat, you're evil for hurting animals in the process of getting your meat or milk or eggs. Eat all the roadkill you want; we won't condemn you. Just keep your facts straight.

        Vegetarians don't eat animals (including fish, chickens, etc.), but some of us eat eggs and milk and others don't. Vegans not only don't eat eggs and milk, usually because you can't get them without killing animals, and in typical agriculture it also involves being mean to them, and they also

    • Healthy Vegan? (Score:1, Troll)

      by Cyno01 ( 573917 )
      Sorry, that really is an oxymoron. I respect peoples decision not to eat meat, but the people i know who are full vegans just seem kind of sickly. You can't live on multi-vitamins.
    • I hope you don't mean this [earlham.edu].
    • I admit that my population sample isn't large, but I believe that vegan/vegetarian girls taste better, particularly where it matters most.

      I have found vegetarians to be sweeter, other girls are more sour.

      I have experienced changes in the flavour of girlfriends when they started their eating/smoking habits.

      Has anyone found corroborating evidence to support my findings?

  • ISR, Bell Rings YOU (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lije Baley ( 88936 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:24PM (#6767765)
    Just how did Pavlov get the bell to crave ice cream??
    And you call yourselves editors...
    • Oh, give the editors a break:

      Humans have been trained to yearn for ice cream in the same way as Pavlov's fabled bell.

      I know that as written, it's saying that Pavlov's bell yearned for ice cream. But I'm sure they meant to say:

      Humans have been trained to yearn for ice cream in the same way as for Pavlov's fabled bell.

      . . . meaning that humans have been trained to want ice cream as badly as they wanted Pavlov's bell.

      After all, what else could they have meant?

  • I'd rather have a pizza dinner... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner

    Yuck! Vegans are tough and stringy!

  • Kill Vegans ... (Score:5, Funny)

    by zangdesign ( 462534 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:31PM (#6767856) Journal
    The only good Vegan is a dead Vegan. I remember back in The Big War, this cadre of those blasted three-eyed bastards from Vega was ... what? We got Earthians wantin' to be Vegans?

    Great Malda's Ghost! What is this world coming to? Don't those poor misguided Earth children know anything about the Vegans at ... vegetarians?

    Vegetarians?! What? What kinda damn philosophical movement names themselves after three-eyed bastards from space? Damn! Damn!

  • At what point was this doubted? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ip_vjl ( 410654 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:31PM (#6767857) Homepage
    Humans can be trained to crave food in response to abstract prompts just like Pavlov's dogs, reveals new research.


    Maybe I'm out of touch - but at what point was it even questioned whether or not conditioned response worked on humans? Sure we've got a lot more going on that might "override" the stimulus, but conditioned response just seems to be one of those very primitive reactions that would still be with us.

    • Re:At what point was this doubted? (Score:5, Funny)

      by cpeterso ( 19082 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @03:37PM (#6768507) Homepage

      Humans obviously can NOT be conditioned like animals. Humans are not animals; they are the keepers of Our Lord's Earth. Humans were perfectly designed by the Grand Creator Lord Jesus On High. Let us pray that He will deliver us from those heathens in Alabama who are stealing our constitutional rights to free (as in beer) speech and freedom from illegal religions.

    • Re:At what point was this doubted? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by JanneM ( 7445 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @07:15PM (#6770062) Homepage
      Yep. There is one fun exercise a class can do to a teacher if they want:

      Decide on some desired behavior (the typical example would be standing by the door, and/or standing with the back towards the class). Then, whenever the teacher does something that is a bit like the desired behavior - moves a step or two towards the door, for example, some people should perk up a little, smile a little more and show a little more interest in what the teacher says. If the teacher moves away from the desired goal, do the opposite - lose concentration, look less happy and so on.

      _If_ the class does this unobtrusively, so the teacher does not conciously notice something going on, you are likely to have that teacher finishing up the class standing next to the door, talking over his shoulder.

      In social animals, such as humans, the most powerful reinforcer of them all is social interaction. It works far better than any other rewarding stimulus.
    • I've heard of babies developing conditioned responses. My neighbor would heat up his kid's baby formula in the microwave, which of course would beep when the formula was done. After many beep-food iterations, whenever the kid heard a beep, he expected to be fed.

  • Consider yourself impressed. (Score:5, Informative)

    by tordia ( 45075 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:37PM (#6767936) Homepage
    I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    As a healthy male vegan, can consider yourself impressed.

    I generally yearn for food from one of Chicago's many vegan-friendly restaurants [j3n.net] than my own concoctions, but that says more about my cooking abilities than anything else.

    Some other, more well-known, healthy male vegans:

    • Jack LaLanne (Fitness guru) (vegan)
    • Dave Scott (five time winner of the Ironman Triathlon) (vegan)

    • Re:Consider yourself impressed. (Score:5, Informative)

      by eclectric ( 528520 ) <bounce@junk.abels.us> on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:42PM (#6767989)
      I also offer http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm for your consideration.

      It's rather like claiming a healthy married male is incapable of resisting the temptations of other beautiful women. It sells short our sex.
    • You ought to see all the supplements these guys take! We are talking between 50 to 100 pills a day. All to get the same nutrition set I get from single steak. And, as an example, Jack LaLanne is not a true vegan. He eats fish and eggs as well as consuming supplements made from other animal products.

      Just because you process them down and change their appearance, does not change the nature of what they are consuming.

  • Yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    Easy! Serve said dinner out of a vagina.

  • Great ads (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jarda ( 635462 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:39PM (#6767946)

    I suspect, if this research wasn't sponsored by some advertisement company. This is great technology for commercials. Everybody needs just a little training, and then, wherever they show appropriate fractal images on TV, all the people will run into the shops for their ice cream, destroying anything in their way

    I wonder if this would work for other things than food as well.

  • i wonder how much commercials (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Unknown Poltroon ( 31628 ) * <unknown_poltroon1sp@myahoo.com> on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:39PM (#6767947)
    contributes to the obesity problem in america? The constant programming every 5 minutes that food makes you happy? Reminding you to eat ever 5 minutes? How does that affect your brain?

  • Vegans (Score:5, Funny)

    by sidmystic ( 598569 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @02:40PM (#6767969)
    I can't stand eating vegans ... tend to choke on their self-righteousness.

    • OB: Simpsons (Score:3, Funny)

      by immanis ( 557955 )


      Smithers: Shall I send out for some Chinese Sir?
      Burns: No, those people are all gristle.

    • I tend to a gree with you. I have had lots of interaction with vegans here at Penn State University [psu.edu]. I get a much larger 'lecture' from them when I wear my t-shirt that says "I (heart) eating cows." I have only met 2 people that I can stand who are vegans.
      One is a punk-rock friend of mine that has recently become vegan (memorial day to be exact). He's adamant about not eating meat or meat products (including eggs or milk), not cause he cares about the animals (he has leather pants for Christ's sa
  • What I've never understood is why non-vegetarians are so damned abrasive towards vegetarians? Granted, there are some of us who are... less than polite when it comes to their views, but that's true of any group. I chock it up to "fear of all that is different."

    • Re:ah... so it begins... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Experiment 626 ( 698257 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @03:19PM (#6768275)
      I think part of it is backlash against the militant vegetarians who try to impose their beliefs on others. The non-vegetarians do not want want to hear all about "meat is murder", the conditions in a slaughterhouse, or the plight of the cow they ate for lunch. The vocal minority of vegetarians' self-righteous attitude and proselytizing causes them all to be viewed by suspicion by some people, much as some people react towards Christians.

      Of course, there are other factors as well. In American society, men tend to eat a lot of red meat, whereas salads and vegetables, being more popular among female diets, are sometimes viewed as "chick food". While these are not a universal correlation (men eat some salads, women do eat hamburgers), the topic post's reference to males' dislike for vegan foods clearly plays to this tendency. Deviation from societal norms leads to occasional abrasiveness and ridicule, particularly when it comes to behavior that is deemed unmanly. If I showed up for work on Monday with a pink Hello Kitty t-shirt, the other guys at work would probably tease me.

      • I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer. If you aren't prepared to kill, butcher, and then prepare your meat you shouldn't be eating it.

        I think the vegan diet is alright. If strict attention is paid towards acquiring all the amino acids daily, it can be healthy. If not, hormone imbalance, malnutrition, and many other maladies can be the result.

        I personally love meat (had a dry-aged ribeye wrapped in uncured bacon last night) but my bride-to-be eats only fish and

        • I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer.

          What if the animal whose meat you're eating didn't die?

          If you aren't prepared to kill, butcher, and then prepare your meat you shouldn't be eating it.

          Why not? If I'm not prepared to deliver a baby, should I not have kids? If I'm not prepared to clean out a septic system should I not take a shit? If there are other people who are willing to do the dirty work, why shouldn't I reap the benefits?

          • If I'm not prepared to deliver a baby, should I not have kids?

            I wouldn't feel sorry for you, your wife, or your child if you impregnated your wife, went about your business 'Doop-dee doo!', and she went into labor and died on a stuck subway car because you were too busy to read about birthing a child so you could help her out.

            If I'm not prepared to clean out a septic system should I not take a shit?

            A properly maintained septic system doesn't really go bad. It's your fault for flushing shit that doesn
        • I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer.

          What about all of those innocent plant, being killed for vegan satisfaction? Plants have feelings too - at least that's what some hippies say. They are certainly alive - but people have no issue ripping their their heads off and maiming them.

          I dont see how people can draw a line between plants and animals. Food is food, our body required a balanced diet. We dont eat cats and dogs because they are pets, we dont eat dolph
        • > I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer.

          I really don't think that if you can't put a computer together from just copper wire and transistors, you cannot consider yourself a programmer.

          Hey, I can't make catsup from raw tomatoes, does that mean I can't eat pizza? Please think a little more next time.
        • I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer. Ok Ted.

          I'm not a "Killer" because I don't "Kill" things, that's a simple one for first year english students. By your logic I've killed a bunch of people in Iraq by paying my taxes, but I havent. Likewise if I give you $50 to buy a gun and you use it to kill someone else, I haven't killed that guy either.

          If you aren't prepared to kill, butcher, and then prepare your meat you shouldn't be eating it.

          Wow! This is fun! If

      • Deviant males are a "norm" in today's society, in fact, last time I checked most of the males I know wear deviant badges and thrust out their manly chests so that others may see the mark of the deviant behavior displayed in all its glory! Let's all drink beer, eat steak, and loudly proclaim our manly deviance together(except for you females and Vegans)!!!

    • Perhaps you missed the initial salvo that went like this:

      I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

      The implication is that only vegan dinners are healthy, and more so, that an omnivorous meal is unhealthy. That's a pretty hefty attack and will naturally bring responses. Imagine if the poster had said, "I won't be impressed until they can make a homosexual male yearn for a nice healthy heterosexual relationship." or "I won't be impressed until th

    • Most food I eat because I like the flavor and texture, some I eat because it's healthy and tolerable otherwise. But it really gets up my nose when someone preaches about eating vegetarian.

      I used to live next door to a vegetarian and I can definitely say that soy milk is NOT a suitable replacement for whole milk, which I thoroughly enjoy.
      • What does that mean? No animal on Earth drinks milk of another species at all, and none even drink milk of their own species past infancy. What makes you think cows milk even needs to be replaced? It should NOT be part of a human diet in the first place. Soy milk is extremely common in China where they also drink cows milk, who said it's intended as a replacement? And my guess is that your "authority" on soy milk is based on one prejudiced sip, that I've seen too many non vegans take, knowing damn well

        • Re:ah... so it begins... (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Tower ( 37395 )
          >No animal on Earth drinks milk of another species at all, and none even drink milk of their own species past infancy.

          No other species wears clothes, cooks/bakes, builds motorized vehicles, reads poetry, plays baseball, or posts on slashdot.

          Rice milk and soy milk are like skim milk and powdered milk - if you grew up with them or have been drinking them for a while, they are fine, but they are a major shock to those who haven't had them on a regular basis.
    • Not vegetarians - vegans. And it may (at least here) be more about them firebombing meat trucks, chaining themselves to butcher shops and "liberating" minks (which promptly proceed to kill off the local bird population and die from starvation once winter sets in) than with the actual dietary choices.

      To put it in another way, some subset of vegetarians, especially vegans, see their choice as a political one, rather than a personal one. And any political movement, especially when radical and extremist, will
    • Because you're always preaching to the rest of us?

      I have nothing against vegetarians. I have nothing against meals that lack meat or meat by-products. But I have a distinct disgust at the holier-than-thou attitudes of those who refer to themselves as "vegan".
      • If you're saying that's so, it's not. Actually I think the opposite is true. That many meat eaters act exactly with that "holier-than-thou" attitude. It just seems socially acceptable that any vegans are open to unlimited amounts of teasing, and criticism, while even the slight utterance of disagreement on the part of vegans, is considered what you described.
        • > many meat eaters act exactly with that "holier-than-thou" attitude

          I disagree with this completely. I live in a pretty f'ing socially backward area, but if I said to someone "I'm a vegan," (although I am not) I might get a strange look (amused or ignorant, can't be sure), but very few (about the same % as there are rabid vegans, probably) will spout off about the values of red meat. If I say, however, "you're a murderer for eating meat," I'd expect to get my ass kicked. That's just as bad as me sayi

    • What I've never understood is why non-vegetarians are so damned abrasive towards vegetarians?

      Probably jealousy. There are a lot of non-vegetarians who know that they are contributing to something which is wrong. But meat is an addiction, and our society makes it extremely difficult to quit. I've tried several times myself, and I can't do it.

      • > Probably jealousy.

        Oh (self-)righteous one, I am jealous of you for depriving yourself of certain types of food. WTF? I laugh at you for it, but I respect your decision to do so. Why is it anyone who chooses to be different calls themselves persecuted when the majority asks them WTF they are doing. It's not because we're jealous, it's because we're confused by you.

        • Oh (self-)righteous one, I am jealous of you for depriving yourself of certain types of food.

          Really? I don't deprive myself of any types of food. If you read my comment you would realize I'm not a vegetarian.

          • > If you read my comment you would realize I'm not a vegetarian.

            When I said "you," I am using it to mean "a vegetarian." If it's a problem, exchange all ocurrences of "you" with "them."

            • If it's a problem, exchange all ocurrences of "you" with "them."

              So how is anyone being (self-)righteous? And who is calling themselves persecuted? I stand by my answer. I think non-vegetarians are abrasive towards vegetarians primarily due to jealousy.

              • > I think non-vegetarians are abrasive towards vegetarians primarily due to jealousy.

                How are they jealous? And of what? My point is, that's an entirely ridiculous statement. You are arguing semantics, I'm arguing the point. WHAT IS THERE TO BE JEALOUS ABOUT?
                Definitely not health, as that has more to do with eating responsibly, as opposed to the types of foods you eat (excluding "junk food" of course). Their willpower? If I want willpower, I'll quit smoking. Not to mention the that I think mo
    • How did you get from

      Granted, there are some of us who are... less than polite when it comes to their views

      to

      I chock it up to "fear of all that is different."

      ?

      It's not fear of what is different. It's, as you say, that vegetarians have a tendency to be impolite.

      Here's an example. I was sitting at a table at a wedding and one of the people at the table was a vegetarian. The wait staff messed up who had the vegetarian meal and accidentally set down a steak in front of said vegetarian. What do you th

  • +1 Flamebait (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by FroMan ( 111520 )
    I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    Yeah, they can do that. I just requires the removal of most of the brain.

  • vagina dinner? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner."

    Must be a slow day, I thought he said vagina dinner. I thought it was only the brothers who turn their nose up at good pussy.

  • I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    That would be *very* impressive, seeing how a vegan lifestyle is more of a liberal political statement than a sincere attempt at a healthy balanced lifestyle.

    I mean, try and imagine a Carls Jr. commercial for vegans. It begins with some unshaved buff construction worker ordering the new Six Dollar Salad. He salivates as he picks up the 3 lb. vegetable delight complete with peas, broccoli, cauliflower, and various Chinese herbs. After taking a huge bite, he wipes away lots of 0% fat ranch dressing from his chin. The commerical ends with Carls Jr.'s new slogan "If it came from an animal, it doesn't belong in your face."

    michael, save your liberal/flamebait articles for http://yro.slashdot.org [slashdot.org]. You and science mix like oil and water.
    • I'm a vegetarian, but not a vegan, so it's a bit easier to find fast food. I don't usually go to the Carl's Jr. near my office, but why I do, it's one of the better fast-food choices. I usually get the potato with various toppings, and I suspect that the vaguely-butter-colored-margarine-substitute-subst a nce that comes with the potatoes has few if any components that came from actual cream (:-) (Unfortunately their bacon bits are real, unlike the usual salad-bar crunch soy things.) And their fried zu

  • Level 5 vegans? (Score:5, Funny)

    by JasonMaggini ( 190142 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @05:26PM (#6769394)
    I always think of the Simpsons:
    "I'm a level 5 vegan, I don't eat anything that casts a shadow."

  • Brian Wilson
    Words and Music by Steven Page
    It's a matter of instinct, It's a matter of conditioning,

    It's a matter of fact
    You can call me Pavlov's dog
    Ring a bell and i'll salivate -- how'd you like that
    Dr. Landy tell me you're not just a pedagogue
  • Good Humor Truck [geocities.com]
    • I'm surprised nobody mentioned this before your post. I told my children (3.5 and 1.75 years old) only once what that bell on the truck means and they responded to it approriately thereafter. They were immediately trained to jump up, beg for ice-cream and run to the front door when that bell sounds in the neighborhood. They salivated too.

  • Um, but? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Lord Kano ( 13027 )
    won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    Isn't this an oxymoron? In the immortal words of Paul Rodriguez "I've never met a vegetarian that looked like he could kick MY ass".

    Regerdless of how many times you people say otherwise, it doesn't change the fact that a BALANCED diet that includes some meat and/or animal products is healthier than a purely vegan diet.

    LK

  • I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

    Yeah, that would hell of a trick. But I think it would be easier to get everybody pay taxes with a smile.

    Beside everybody gets exposed to a unhealty dose of conditioning, they call it education. Everybody gets conditioned, with clothing being the most common. How many people do you know aren't at least unconfortable about being naked among other people? If you give a bit of thought, it's pretty unnatural

    • The question is, do you really want to live in an environment without a status quo? Where people are unpatriotic? What of the ills of society?
      • > do you really want to live in an environment without a status quo? Where people are unpatriotic? What of the ills of society?

        Yes.

        If there is no society, there are no societal ills. Granted, I'd probably be one of the first fifty million to die.
  • As one who works with animals, I have often wondered that Pavlov was able to get his work published. I have animals that are able to identify the sound of a specific motor vehicle, a screen door, my footsteps in a particular pair of boots and some that even respond to the bathroom light coming on in the middle of the night. The only reason I can figure for his work being published is that, even in his day, urban Russian society was already far-removed from their food supply.

  • contradiction in terms (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SlugLord ( 130081 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @04:31AM (#6782569)
    "nice healthy vegan dinner"

    That's highly unlikely. If we want to make "having the nutrients necessary for good health" a prerequisite to "healthy," then it is nearly impossible to have a "healthy vegan dinner."

    This of course assumes we take the optimistic view of the possibility of a "nice vegan dinner."

    A nice healthy vegetarian dinner is quite possible, but you will be hard pressed to find anyone who can actually maintain their health (in the sense of not becoming seriously ill) as well as a vegan diet without loading their diet with supplements. To me this seems to demonstrate that a vegan diet is clearly not "natural," as vegans could not exist without modern technology. The logical conclusion, then, is that the vast majority of vegans are hypocrites or fools. The remaining minority are sickly and quite possibly dying of malnutrition

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