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Science

Iceman Otzi was a Fighter 245

Posted by michael from the purple-heart dept.
Theatetus writes "Yahoo! News is running a story from USA Today that Otzi the iceman's murder is more complicated than we thought. It seems Otzi had blood on his clothes and knife from four different people in patterns that suggested he took out two with his bow and carried a wounded or dead person over his shoulder. I sense an action movie in the making..." If you don't remember Otzi, read the original story.
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Iceman Otzi was a Fighter More

Iceman Otzi was a Fighter

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  • Obligatory Phil Hartman quote... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Guano_Jim ( 157555 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:12PM (#6679745)
    I tried to read the article, but I didn't understand it.

    Because I'm just a cave man!

    Ah, Phil, we barely knew ye...
    • Article says...
      It was very exciting when the blood samples came back positive for human DNA from four separate individuals

      Bet they don't know about the Chimera Twins/Quadruplets [slashdot.org]

    • Re:Obligatory Phil Hartman quote... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @06:31PM (#6680457) Journal
      Ladies and gentlmen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic makes me want to get out of my BMW and run off to the hills or whatever. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine I wonder, Did little demons get inside and type it? I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know. When a man like my client slips and falls on a sidewalk in front of a public library, then he is entitled to no less than two million in compensatory damages and two million in punitive damages. Thank you.

  • But he wasn't gay... (Score:5, Informative)

    by jeffmorgen ( 681972 ) * on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:12PM (#6679749) Homepage
    ... The Straight Dope [straightdope.com]

    • Re:But he wasn't gay... (Score:5, Funny)

      by tambo ( 310170 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:58PM (#6680189)
      This part of the article is interesting...

      "'but Otzi is the first known homosexual man that enjoyed being [made a receptacle of lust].... Otzi was the passive partner--of this there is absolutely no doubt.... The sperm was carbon dated.'"

      Y'know, at first, I thought: Why would they bother? He's been dead for like 60,000 years; why bother carbon-dating it? Can't we be sure that it's just about as old as ol' Otzi here? Even necrophiliacs wouldn't stoop that low.

      Then I thought: Wait a minute, I'm questioning the bottom-line standards of necrophiliacs.

      Then I stopped thinking about the issue altogether because I didn't like where it was heading. Ick.

      - David Stein
    • Heh, my favorite line from that link:
      His entire crotch, including penis and testicles, is gone, presumably having been eaten by scavengers shortly after his demise.

      I can just imagine the ancient food advertisement: "Got Crotch?"

  • Oh man! (Score:5, Funny)

    by downix ( 84795 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:14PM (#6679767) Homepage
    I can see it now! It's got action! It's got Drama! It's got this hot, sexy half-naked female co-star! Throw in some young stud like Vin Deisel as Otzi, and we've got a surefire winner!

    Alright, who's with me to bid on the movie rights?
  • He's a distant ancestor of John Oconnor.

  • So... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Faust7 ( 314817 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:14PM (#6679770) Homepage
    With all the DNA tech we have now, we can make an arrest, right?

  • Otzi was a fighter... (Score:5, Funny)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) * <teamhasnoi AT yahoo DOT com> on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:15PM (#6679782) Journal
    I'm guessing he was a lover too. Where else would all you Neanderthals come from? ;)

    Since this murder case is still open, I suggest we get together and frame Darl McPrisonBride for it.

  • he was killed.... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Omega Prime ( 265024 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:16PM (#6679796)
    because he was telling copyright fire side stories.

    bronze age riaa

    "And they were killed in the manner best befitting virgins" ---- "He's dead Jim"

  • he speaks to us from the grave.. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by peculiarmethod ( 301094 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:17PM (#6679806) Journal
    with his leathered 5000 yr old skin, his bronze axe, knife, quiver, his grass cloak (usually worn by heardsmen until the last century) and series of wounds (did I mention self-ritualized death?).. Otzi reminds us that life in the alps is cold, dangerous, and just not worth it. (for it, see *MURDER*)

    btw.. i think it's great that they used the pollen (which various form found are only released in Autumn) to figure out what things were like when he died. Harsh, autumn is in the alps.. he was fighting many men for days at a time in dead brutal conditions.. RAD.. go otzi

    p
  • seems Otzi had blood on his clothes and knife from four different people


    or, to tie in to a previous story, perhaps Otzi is a chimera?

  • Wow it's like a real MMORPG! (Score:5, Funny)

    by cryms0n ( 52620 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:18PM (#6679822)
    Tanking is a bitch.

  • DNA (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Talia Starhawke ( 650311 )
    The article really shows the advancement in DNA technology since he was discovered. And with the mountain pass melting the way it is, we'll have an archaeologists' field day!

    But at least that's better than going off looking for a Yeti! [yahoo.com]

    • Re:DNA (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Mostly Harmless ( 48610 ) <.moc.oohay. .ta. .etep_ekim.> on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:40PM (#6680050) Homepage
      "Egarter matched the knife to the hand and found a deep gash on the hand that had been missed in previous studies. He then found another cut on the left hand and bruises on the torso, as if Otzi had been beaten."

      The article also shows the advancement in forensic analysis. What do they mean they missed a DEEP GASH on his hand? C'mon, guys. Eyeglasses were invented in Italy. Use them.

      • Re:DNA (Score:3, Insightful)

        by DerekLyons ( 302214 )
        The article also shows the advancement in forensic analysis. What do they mean they missed a DEEP GASH on his hand? C'mon, guys. Eyeglasses were invented in Italy. Use them.
        This isn't a body of someone who died in the morning and was in the morgue that afternoon. This is a body that spent millenia frozen inside slowly moving ice.

        It's not always easy to tell what is antemortem and what is postmortem damage, not to mention the damage done in the recovery process.

  • incorrect count (Score:5, Informative)

    by pyros ( 61399 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:20PM (#6679844) Journal
    He had blood on his back from one person, and blood on his knife from two more. So the theory is he carried a wounded friend, and fought two assailants. His own DNA set is included in the count of 4. I saw the first discovery show they did on him, was pretty neat. Looking forward to the next one.

    • Not Necessarily a Nice Neanderthal (Score:5, Funny)

      by Spittoon ( 64395 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:38PM (#6680028) Homepage
      Yeah I know, "not a neanderthal at all", but I couldn't resist the alliteration.

      "Otzi" is a nice cute name. Maybe if they'd named him something like "Shiv" or "Kane" people's imaginations wouldn't bestow such benevolent traits upon him automatically.

      Maybe he was a cannibal, who was carrying someone he killed back to his lair to consume, when he was attacked by the brothers of his victim, who were intent upon ending his rein of terror over the local populace.

      Or maybe I'm a cynic. Heh.

    • Blood on the back (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mce ( 509 )
      I must say that I find the theory that he caried a wounded friend a bit far fetched. The blood on his back may just as well have come from another attacker. Otzi may himself have been the one who wounded that man, or the man may have accidently wounded himself before or during the fight (e.g. by somehow hitting the rocks), or he may have been wounded by the mysterious friend of Otzi, or ...

      While we're at it, for instance, let's speculate that Otzi simply found "his" cape after it had been lost by one of se
    • Probably not a wounded friend. Wounded meal, maybe.

      4 types of DNA from a European area that old is quite a find however. I'm interested to see how they are all related to each other and to us today. I'm also interested to see whether they can be used to re-run the tests for Neanderthal DNA.

  • The speculations just keep getting wilder... (Score:3, Funny)

    by sTalking_Goat ( 670565 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:24PM (#6679872) Homepage
    I saw the DC documentary. The researchers invovled in this project just keep making the story wilder. It wasn't good enough that someone shot him in the back and he collapsed and died. Now they're making him into a First Action Hero.

    Next they'll tell us he was actually from the year 1865 sent back in time 5000 years to protect a hot, but dumpy looking cave-chick from the Steam powered Terminator sent from the same future to kill her before she fathered the distant ancestor of Rudolf Diesel [invent.org]...

    The Rock will portray Otzi in the movie...

    • Re:The speculations just keep getting wilder... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by delong ( 125205 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:48PM (#6680119)
      Well, the article seems to suggest that the scientists concluded that Otzi had attempted to remove the arrow from his back, but only succeeded in removing the shaft, leaving the point in his shoulder.

      He was found clutching his knife, with indications from cuts on his hands that he was in a knife fight. With bruises to his torso that indicate he may have been beaten.

      Seems to me the evidence does seem to point to the scenario: he was shot, pulled the shaft from his body, and was in a running fight that ended with a nasty close-up knife fight, which resulted in his demise.

      Derek

      • Re:The speculations just keep getting wilder... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by sTalking_Goat ( 670565 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @06:16PM (#6680333) Homepage
        Lets start from the beginning shall we.

        The first conclusion was that he was walking the alps in Autmn. A sudden storm blew up and he died of Hypothermia.

        The guys that proposed this theory and missed the huge (well not huge but not tiny) arrowhead stuck in his shoulder.

        Then somebody grabbed samples of 5000 old turd from his anus and discovered spring pollen. So the next theory I believe was that he got into a fight, someone/s beat the shit out of him breaking his ribs and he fled into the mountains, collapsed and died of shock.

        Then lo and behold somebody spotted the arrowhead. So then we get the shot in the back theaory and the rib deformation was determined to be post mortem, caused by the pressure of the ice he was frozen in.

        Now because they've found bruises on his rib area , the entire Ice pressure hypothesis goes out the window and we're back to the beating, but with a twist. Blood samples on his shoulder spontaneously exagerates into a wounded wisecracking side kick. Other blood samples become ninja assassins and Otzi is now a Lowly Sheep-Hearder turned Vigilante Out for Justice(TM).

        Have these guys ever heard of Ockham's Razor? I'm no foresic scientist, but this does not seem like the simplest explanation too me.

        In fact this smacks of sensationlism aimed at Joe & Jane Sixpack, so these guys can grab more funding.

        I work in research and if I cooked up a wild story everytime I think I've discovered the 21st Century's version of DNA, my boss would have my head.

        • He was clutching a bloodied knife (human blood, but not his own) and had cuts on both hands. Blood from two other people on the tips of an arrow in his quiver, and across his back. Plus a broken arrow in his own back. Why don't you step forward with your hum-drum explanation so we can go back to assuming that ancient man was a gentle and peaceloving creature who sometimes fell victim to the harsh elements?
          • And once again someone entirely misses my point.

            I'm not claiming the theory is false or true for that matter. I'm questioning the need to sensationlize it like this, instead of just presenting the facts.

            Why can't they have stated the above discoveries like you did? Instead they come up with wild theories of a Showdown in the Alps. It just makes them look stupid whenever a new disovery is made that disproves it. While its hard to argue that he hadn't been shot with an arrowhead staring you in the face, its

            • The evidence seems rather suspicious to me, especially when one of the archealogists carried that vial of blood in his pocket when he visited the site rather than taking it to the museum lab right away . . .
        • It's called revising a hypothesis to accomodate new data. Nothing too shocking.

          Derek

  • criminal (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kin_korn_karn ( 466864 )
    he could have been a bandit that tried to rob the wrong people. Didn't they find him in a pass? Perfect place to ambush some travelers.

  • Hot cave man sex (Score:5, Funny)

    by makoffee ( 145275 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:24PM (#6679882) Homepage Journal
    Whatever! Sounds to me like he had smacked his would-be wife over the head with a club, and was about to drag her back to his cave, when three ninjas jummped out from behind a rock and started freeking out. Sadly ninjas live the life of the sword, and came to a fitting end. Even if this sword was just a pointy knife.

  • Read the book "Iceman" if... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by joshamania ( 32599 ) <jggramlich.yahoo@com> on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:25PM (#6679885) Homepage
    ...you are an archeologist and would like a good cry.

    It's a bit boring and slow at times, but overall pretty interesting. The most memorable piece of the book describes hikers and local police/government types hacking at the ice and mud that Otzi was frozen in, irreparably damaging the corpse...breaking the bow (& arrows) in half by snapping it off in the ice when trying to pry it out of the frozen muck. The initial discover of Otzi was nothing less than a tragedy for science.

    The book also discusses in detail all the political BS that went along with the discovery...whether he was found in Italy or Austria and who really "owned" Otzi. One big mess, really...
    • IANAA (I Am Not An Archeologist), but I wonder if there's any chance that some of that DNA comes from the people digging him out. An untrained hiker or cop accidentally nicks a finger on an arrowhead, etc. I would assume that they can distinguish 5000 year old blood from 10 year old blood, but I don't know if this is true. I think this post is sufficiently uninformed for /.

  • I'm surprised . . . (Score:3, Funny)

    by RGRistroph ( 86936 ) <rgristroph@gmail.com> on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:25PM (#6679889) Homepage
    That no mention of the reactions [slashdot.org] of Otzi's relatives [slashdot.org] were included in the story. Please, slashdot editors, I know this is a tech web site but there's no need to lose track of the human side of this.

    Also, note that his name wasn't Otzi, and that the introduction of the knife aspect causes us to re-examine previously ruled out suspects.

  • So, (Score:5, Funny)

    by cygnus ( 17101 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:26PM (#6679900) Homepage
    So iceman was an action hero, eh?

    Maybe he should run for Governor of California.

    * rimshot

  • You gave away the ending already... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Dareth ( 47614 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:26PM (#6679903)
    simple story... he is a fighter...

    Conclusion: He failed his last saving throw.
    • Quilici says the team suspects blood on the back of the cloak may have come from a wounded colleague that Otzi was carrying over his shoulder. Loy says blood of two people was found on the same arrow, suggesting Otzi killed both men and retrieved the arrow.
      What if he did not miss? He is shot in the back, so is his friend. He turns around retrievs(sp?) his "full speed" arrow and fires it at his assailants and kills 'em. He retrievs his arrow, tries to take his wounded friend home, but dies of the wounds (

  • How many HP? (Score:5, Funny)

    by grondak ( 80002 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:28PM (#6679917) Homepage
    ... and what level?

    4?
    5?
    Gashes, arrow wounds, wow, he definitely had more than 10hp!

    Nice Fortitude saves, too
  • "I sense an action movie in the making..."

    From the end of the article: A one-hour documentary about the new findings, Iceman: Hunt for a Killer, airs at 9 p.m. Aug. 24 on the Discovery Channel. Can you tell me if you sense the last season of Farscape coming on?
  • Is it any surprise that we're all so bored at work. Yes it's busy and I have to work hard. But it feels completely pointless. Obviously it's because I haven't had to fight anyone to the death lately. Really, If we evolved from these people and they evolved to fight for their lives most of the time what is happening now that we don't use any of these skills. My last meal took fighting it out of the plastic bag into the microwave. I actually got mad that I had to wash a fork to eat it. Excellent use o
    • Or develop new skills and abandon the past?

    • Re:No wonder everything is so boring lately (Score:5, Interesting)

      by bytesmythe ( 58644 ) <bytesmytheNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @07:04PM (#6680709)
      While we're at it, I'm beginning to think this whole "rule of law" thing is going too far, myself. It does nothing for the sense of "vengeance" human societies were founded upon for millennia.

      How many people have you met that leave you shaking your head as you walk away? They're whiny, stuck-up, self-centered, or complete assholes. It's because we aren't allowed to beat the hell out of people who fully deserve it. In a more "natural" sort of human society, being a jerk is a crime, and can get you a severe ass kicking.

      Let's get rid of these silly laws and get back to the good ol' days!

      (Note for the humor impaired: this post is meant only half-seriously. It is in no way an attack on the parent post, nor is it meant as a real suggestion that we return to a state of complete lawlessness. I think the parent post [and mine] have a real point to make, though. A fundamental part of our human brain evolved to handle an environment that we almost never exposed to now, and a 9-5 job is no match for beating sabre-tooth tigers with clubs. *grin*)
      • While we're at it, I'm beginning to think this whole "rule of law" thing is going too far, myself. It does nothing for the sense of "vengeance" human societies were founded upon for millennia.

        Though you were making a point, and weren't seriously advocating total anarchy, it's notable that there are plenty of folks who do want to go back to the "good ol days". Here are the lyrics to a current country hit by Toby Keith [ev1.net] and Willie Nelson:

        Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son

        A man had to answer for t

      • Survival of the strongest wouldn't be a good thing for geeks. Surviving High School is hard enough as it is. Of course, it could mean that the really brainy ones would come up with all sorts of unique and interesting technological devices to defeat their adversaries. Maybe a home-made taser or something like that, build from recycled motherboard and PSU capacitors...
        • A friend of mine was once picked on rather severely when in school. He wasn't a techie geek like many of us here on /., but he certainly didn't fit in to the "normal" crowd. So the bully who picked on him frequently, when not able to provide a regular fight, took to slugging him in the arm very hard.

          So my friend takes a thin piece of cardboard and lines it with thumbtacks, wraps it around his upper arm and hides it under his sleeve. As he's sitting at his desk, the instigator walks by and my friend snidel

  • Rock! (Score:5, Funny)

    by ivanmarsh ( 634711 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:34PM (#6679995)
    Scientists discover 5,300 year old, mumified, Italian badass.

    Next season on NBC:

    Law and Order: Special Caveman Unit

    • Scientists discover 5,300 year old, mumified, Italian badass.

      Next season on NBC:

      Law and Order: Special Caveman Unit

      Copied on CBS as:

      CSI: Bronze Age (starring Denis Leary and Sandra Bullock)

  • Hurry hurry... (Score:3, Funny)

    by MoxCamel ( 20484 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:37PM (#6680018)
    "We've been working round the clock for the last three weeks to get these results," DNA specialist Thomas Loy of the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, told USA TODAY Monday by phone from a laboratory in Bolanzo, Italy.

    Presumably because the statute of limitations for murdering a neanderthal is 5,301 years.

  • A Fighter? (Score:5, Funny)

    by efuseekay ( 138418 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @05:37PM (#6680022)
    Come on, he has a knife and a bow, is dressed in leather armor, so he must be a RANGER!

  • Somewhere, right now, a lawyer is filing a wrongful death suit against his killers.

  • Why do we assume he was a hero? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by digger3001 ( 562414 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @06:07PM (#6680264) Homepage
    Maybe he wasn't a good guy, but a murderer or rapist who was carrying away his "treasure" and being chased by the local peoples.

    It's interesting how people automatically assume he was some explorer, a hero of his time.

    Dig

    • Rorschach blots. There have been a billion studies of exactly this question, and the answer is...

      we see what we want to. And what we want are heroes, not villians. Given an unknown, we want that unknown to be Vin Diesel fighting the good fight, not Ted Bundy making of with a co-ed.

    • Re:Why do we assume he was a hero? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by watzinaneihm ( 627119 ) on Wednesday August 13, 2003 @02:56AM (#6683347) Journal
      He had an unused axe which is an indicator of status. So he must be a chieftain.
      He was 46 and probably a grandfather, and he had blood on his cloak trying to carry his wounded friend. So he must be a good guy
      He fought and killed two of his assailants - so he is brave
      Or he killed his chieftain,stole his axe, raped his daughter and was trying to kidnap her and hid in a ravine and sneakily and using "terrorist" tactics killed two of the chieftains sons
      Unlikely, but possible. But then again it should be a perfectly valid thing to do, Just read hamlet.
      • Regardless of what theory you subscribe to, Otzi seems to have lead an interesting life.
        ...and had an interesting end.

        I think I'll actually RTFA this time.

  • I saw that documentary (Score:3, Funny)

    by sharkey ( 16670 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @06:12PM (#6680295)
    It had Brendan Fraser doing a reenactment of the Iceman getting trapped.
    • Why did it have to be a reenactment? Couldn't they have scrapped the survival of their actor for realism's sake? They could even add another actor by the name of Pauly Shore, in case the shooting of Fraser's didn't turn out just right. Maybe even Carrottop as a third "actor". Wouldn't that have been better than a measly "reenactment"? ;)

      -Jellisky

  • O.J. Now looking for the real killers. (Score:5, Funny)

    by cant_get_a_good_nick ( 172131 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @06:19PM (#6680366)
    Otsi J. was seen driving away in a white Ford Flinstonemobile.
  • They are re-running the original show about this find on Discovery Science Channel today, now I know why.

  • not too important, but his name is not Otzi (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @06:27PM (#6680429)
    Due to the lack of the correct Umlaut character in english, you made his name "Otzi".

    In fact its "Oetzi", or with the correct Umlaut its "Otzi" (an O with two dots on top)

    The name comes from the area "Oetztal" where he was found.

    Too bad he didnt carry his ID, maybe his real name is Larry or so.
  • I can see the Hollywood movie now. Caveman falls in love with Cavewoman. Cavewoman, who has no modern medicine, no concept of hygeine and scavenges plants and dead animals for food, will have beauty that rivals a modern day Miss America. Caveman, who is in the same situation and a recent decedent of the ape, will have the suaveness to of Sean Connery. Both will speak perfect English, but with a slight "caveman" accent.

    After frollicing in the beautiful mountain landscape, Cavewoman is captured by an evil Ca
  • To crush the enemy. To see him driven before you. To hear the lamentations of the women.
    • Conan was a wimp. If anything, Otzi would have put it like Genghis did some 4600 years later:

      "Man's greatest good fortune is to chase and defeat his enemy, seize his total possessions, leave his married women weeping and wailing, ride his gelding, and use the bodies of his women." -- Genghis Khan

  • Otzi killed the Kilngons, who had killed the security guards Ramirez and Chang earlier, and helped Spock carry a bloody Kirk to the time portal.

    Music:http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/st ud io/6546/Wavs/fightm.wav
  • I think there needs to be an excemption in this case. One of my ancestors was murdered by Otzi. Because of this my great^98th grandmother had to raise my great^97th grandfather in abject poverty.

    All my ancestors since then have been in the lowest socio-economic bracket. I demand compensation from all living descendants of Otzi.

  • Next thing ya know... (Score:5, Funny)

    by peacefinder ( 469349 ) <alan.dewitt@gmAA ... inus threevowels> on Tuesday August 12, 2003 @08:35PM (#6681330) Journal
    They'll discover that he actually had *three* arrows in him, and a cloven horn by his side. Turns out that jerk Aragorn didn't put Boromir in a boat after all.
  • Given the current hot weather in Europe, I am surprised that no other similar findings have been announced on glaciers.
  • You know... I just followed the link to the older story, and I know it has to be pretty old, since it had the threads stripped out, and was missing it's moderation info (other than the number of points). That got me thinking... I know it's from July 26th, but I doubt it was this year, since that was a few weeks ago. It would be REALLY sweet if slashdot listed the year that a story was posted! It could be up in the title near the date and time.

    If there's already a way to find the year, could someone please
  • but I bet either Frank Columbo or Adrian Monk will bust this guy for murder on just the cologne he's wearing.
  • If he was murdered, why didn't the murderers take his knife, axe, etc? Surely these would have been valuable commodities back then. Why would they have been left with the body?

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