
Another Breakthrough in Prime Number Theory 241
Battal Boy writes "From aimath.org: Dan Goldston and his Turkish colleague Yalcin Cem Yildirim have smashed all previous records on the size of small gaps between prime numbers. This work is a major step toward the centuries-old problem of showing that there are infinitely many 'twin primes': prime numbers which differ by 2, such as 11 and 13, 17 and 19, 29 and 31,...I am especially proud of this achievement as Yalcin is a close friend of mine from way back! You may also want to check out the Mercury News Article and Dan Goldston's home page where you can see a photo of Dan's back being slowly but surely broken by two of his children ..." Finding patterns in primes seems to be all the rage.
Are there secondary numbers? (Score:2, Funny)
Patterns in primes? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Patterns in primes? (Score:2)
Damn, Gnu hippies, always shoving RMS, and ESR into everything.
Re:Patterns in primes? (Score:2)
Good work (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Good work (Score:2)
So Goldston picked off a more manageable piece of the problem: Can you always find prime numbers that may not be twins, but that are much closer together than average? Taking into account, of course, the fact that the bigger numbers get, the sparser primes become.
Sounds more like its a proof through mathematical induction than anything else.
Re:Good work (Score:2)
As far as I understand it, it is "just" a proof that the prime numbers are not evenly distributed, even for arbitrary large numbers.
Slashdotted? (Score:5, Funny)
Practical benefits? (Score:2)
Re:Practical benefits? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Practical benefits? (Score:2)
Patterns? (Score:2)
=Smidge=
Appreciate the beauty of mathematics, for petesake (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a small joke that goes around in the academic world
Biologists like to think they are chemists. Chemists like to think they are physicists. Physicists like to think they are mathematicians. And mathematicians like to think they are god.
Seriously, think of how much of what we learn boils down to our understanding of numbers, systems, and patterns within them. Mathematics, whether you like it or not, is really a beautiful and elegant subject that very few truly understand.
Buffon's Needle (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Buffoon's needle... (Score:3, Informative)
Ummm, those piValue's are there because sin takes an argument in RADIANS. If Math.sin used degrees instead, that lines would be
All it is doing is psedurandomly generating an ANGLE and taking the sine of it to determine the X component of the needle's direction vector.
Your comment reminds me of the people who saw
in Fortran programs and assumed that meant that on September 9th, 1999, all the Fortran code would stop working!
Re:Buffoon's needle... (Score:2)
The only way Buffoon's algorithm makes sense is if you actually physically throw the needle. If you just simulate the throw, it becomes ridiculous, as the simulation itself needs knowledge of pi, or of one of its derivatives.
Ok, so they were tw
Re:Appreciate the beauty of mathematics, for petes (Score:2)
Biologists like to think they are chemists. Chemists like to think they are physicists. Physicists like to think they are mathematicians. And mathematicians like to think they are god.
FYI, there's another version of that joke which ends on "philosophers".
Re:Appreciate the beauty of mathematics, for petes (Score:2)
I'm not a mathematician, but mathematics will always be my first love (which might explain the lack of success in <ahem> another area...) :-)
Re:Appreciate the beauty of mathematics, for petes (Score:2)
Re:Appreciate the beauty of mathematics, for petes (Score:2)
And God created man (and all that other biology stuff)
Re:Biology -- Mathematics (Score:2)
This just in... (Score:2, Funny)
Moo (Score:5, Funny)
No prime numbers can be divided by any number that falls inbetween the number one and the number itself! And, even more exciting, a rule that applies to all prime numbers. All prime numbers can be factored with the number one, but none can be divided by zero.
I hope none of you had anything important "encrypted" with PGP. Just stick to padless one-time pads for *real* security.
After I get the National Math Foundation to classify two as an odd number (and it is really odd considering it's the only even prime number) I'll have my third discovery that all prime numbers are odd validated.
I'd love to post more, but I really must get back to working on my perpetual motion machine. I was so close before, but recently I seem to have lost my bearings. Once I'm done I'll be heralded as the greatest man in the realm of science friction.
Re:Moo moo? (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.math.utah.edu/~cherk/mathjokes.html
Mathematician: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, and by induction - every odd integer higher than 2 is a prime.
Physicist: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is an experimental error, 11 is a prime. Just to be sure, try several randomly chosen numbers: 17 is a prime, 23 is a prime...
Engineer: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is an approximation to a prime, 11 is a prime,...
Programmer (reading the output on the screen): 3 is a prime, 3 is a prime, 3 a is prime, 3 is a prime....
Biologist: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 -- results have not arrived yet,...
Psychologist: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is a prime but tries to suppress it,...
Chemist (or Dan Quayle): What's a prime?
Politician: "Some numbers are prime.. but the goal is to create a kinder, gentler society where all numbers are prime... "
Programmer: "Wait a minute, I think I have an algorithm from Knuth on finding prime numbers... just a little bit longer, I've found the last bug... no, that's not it... ya know, I think there may be a compiler bug here - oh, did you want IEEE-998.0334 rounding or not? - was that in the spec? - hold on, I've almost got it - I was up all night working on this program, ya know... now if management would just get me that new workstation tha just came out, I'd be done by now... etc., etc.
Re:Moo moo? (Score:2)
Actually, after discovering the real answer of the square-root of two, I filtered some dirt, dehydrated some water, and desalinated some salt. I then came up with *exactly* what would hold them.
Oddly enough, you're wrong. (Score:2)
ACK! Forget it... (Score:2)
other patterns in prime numbers (Score:3, Interesting)
here [wolfram.com]
Re:other patterns in prime numbers (Score:2)
I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has attempted to plot this as a fractal [triumf.ca]?
BTW: there is a linux version of Fractint [dyndns.org] available. WooHoo!
I remember waiting over 60 hours for a single screen to draw on some of the deep zooms of the Mandlebrot set when I was running a SOTA 33 Mhz 386. Timothy Leary would not have survived the 60s if he'd had a copy of Fractint and something to run it on at the time :-)
Before somebody asks the question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:5, Informative)
(For those who don't know applied number theory, when factoring a number you first try the small primes, then assuming two large factors of the form (p-n)(p+n) = p^2-n^2.)
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2, Informative)
For those who don't know applied number theory, here is somewhat better look [frenchfries.net] at existing factoring algotirthms.
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2)
In fact it is trivial, but of course there is no need telling that, because every real geek would have figured that out long time ago.
For those who don't know applied number theory, when factoring a number you first try the small primes
In fact there is much more efficient ways to factor large numbers than by trying to divide with each and every prime.
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:4, Informative)
In principle, yes. It depends why you want to try to factor the number, though.
To a first approximation, for numbers n-bits long, roughly every nth number is prime. (To a second approximation, it's every n*ln(2).) If you're trying to find a random prime or near-prime in some range (e.g. for RSA key generation), then you will have to reject a few numbers before you get there.
Most of those rejected numbers will fail the "small primes" test, where you pick all primes smaller than some number (e.g. less than 1000) and try dividing. This, I believe, is what the poster meant by "first try[ing] the small primes". If your number passes the "small primes" test, then you can apply some algorithmically more expensive tests (e.g. Fermat testing).
Of course, if your number is not random, and have reason to believe that your number will pass the small primes test (e.g. if it's an RSA modulus), then this probably won't help you.
Even worse than that (Score:2)
With RSA, I thought you wanted "strong primes," not just primes. A strong prime p is one such that p = 2p' + 1, where p' is also prime. This means that Phi(pq) = (p-1)(q-1) = 4p'q'.
Anyway, in practice this means that you'll go through a lot of primes before you find one suitable for use in an RSA key. That's why it takes so long to generate an RSA keypair....
Re:Even worse than that (Score:3, Informative)
In general I don't think that is the case, but some special uses of RSA makes that requirement. The "safe primes" are harder to find because there is not that many of them.
But finding primes is a different task than factoring numbers. The algorithms for finding primes is a lot more efficient than factoring, if they weren't RSA wouldn't make much sense. There is an algorithm that will find a prime and a proof it is a prime, with a minor mod
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2)
My point, which seems to have been misunderstood, is that nobody should ever turn to the heavy factoring algorithms without first exhausting all of the trivial checks. A few hours spent on trial division, checking for close factors, etc., is nothing when held against the tremendous effort of cracking the numbers via ECD or whatever is the preferred factoring method to
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2)
Took me a minute to realize why this was marked funny...basically, the square root of your dual-prime composite is approximately p
--Dan
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2)
What you do is generate a sequence of small integers, square them, then add them to your composite number. You then check whether the result is a perfect square - I seem to recall there are efficient checks for this which don't involve actually computing the root, or you could just use Newton's method to determine the root.
If, despite all odds, you find a perfect square then you know
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2)
Here, lemme pull out Acme Software's BIC (basically, bc with prime functionality). 18409199 is the 100,000th twin prime.
For those not proficient in bc, I've taken the liberty of illustrating when I type and when the computer responds. I'm basically setting variables; when there is no equality specified, the output is redirected to the screen. My typing is in bold.
===
a=18409199
b=a+2
c=a*b
c
338898644639999
d=sqrt(c)
d
18409199
c/d
18409201
===
I tried
Re:Before somebody asks the question... (Score:2)
Add 1, and the sum ends with '0000' and you can immediately see that any root has to end with '00'.
But this somewhat misses the point - factor 338959063631117. You could factor it by enumerating small primes, or you could note that adding 1642^2 gives you 338959066327281, a perfect square. 18410
Question of the Day (Score:2, Interesting)
Do negatives count? Or do 3 and -3 count as factors? And if this is so, then what stops a positive number from being composite when its factors can include its negative and -1?
Re:Question of the Day (Score:3, Insightful)
As for "counting as factors," one has to look at the definition. An irreducible is a number (well, non-unit element of a ring) such that every factorization has a unit as one of the factors. In the integers, 1 and -1 are the units.
A prime is a number such that if it divides a product, it divides one of the factors. In the integers, these come down
Re:Question of the Day (Score:5, Informative)
Short answer: Yes, -3 is prime in the integers.
Long answer:
So 3|6 because 6=3*2, and (-3)|6 because 6 = (-3)*(-2), and so on.
As an example of this, 48 = 6*8. 3|48, so for 3 to be prime, we would need either 3|6 or 3|8.
Since 3|6, it passes the test in this case (but remember, the condition has to be true for all pairs of integers.)
since 3|a if and only if (-3)|a (Proof: Slashdot post is too small to contain it
Wrong (Score:2)
At least, that's what Eric Weisstein [wolfram.com] thinks.
So do The Prime Pages [utm.edu]
Gotta be positive, por favor.
By your definition both 0 and 1 are primes (Score:2)
0|(a*b) => 0|a or 0|b
is vacuously true (even if you consider that 0|0 is true, the implication still holds since a*b=0 => a=0 or b=0).
Similarly, for p = 1:
1|(a*b)
=> a*b != 0
=> a != 0 or b != 0
=> 1|a or 1|b
Now you've screwed up all the primes (Score:2)
Re:Question of the Day (Score:3, Interesting)
In the ring of polynomials with real coef
No Step At All (Score:2)
> centuries-old problem of showing that there are
> infinitely many 'twin primes':
If the goal is indeed to prove that there are an infinite number of twin primes demonstrating the existence of any finite number of them, however large, is no step at all.
Re:No Step At All (Score:2)
Re:No Step At All (Score:2)
This reminds me of a greasemonkey buddy of mine in high school. I was taking calculus at the time and he said "I've seen calculus. It's all bullshit, it's just a bunch of x's and y's."
Twin primes (Score:5, Informative)
One reason that it is intuitivly possible that there are an infinite number of twin primes is that it is possible to generate numbers that are relativily prime. For example, multiply the first three primes: 2,3, and 5. You get 30. Add or subtract one from 30 and you will get a number that is relatively primet to 2, 3, and 5. In this case you get 29 and 31. Both happen to be prime numbers. We've found a twin.
The hard part of proving there are an infinite number of twins is finding a way of showing that your relatively prime numbers are truely prime. IE, in this case that neither is divisible by a higher prime such as 7, or 11.
Re:Twin primes (Score:2)
Since all primes come in the form 6k±1 (except 2, which is a special case), you can consider all primes to be either a 6k+1 or 6k-1. I ran Mathematica for a few days using a sieve taking advantage of this to come up 2 graphs of the distance between two consecutive primes of the same type. Both were consistent with the same logarithmic function, showing that both tend to grow at very nearly the same rate. Unless something catastrophic ha
Next step (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Next step (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Next step (Score:2, Funny)
OK: 1 and 2. You're next.
Re:Next step (Score:2)
Re:Next step (Score:2)
Why I like Slashdot... (Score:2)
...as well as people discussing (maybe even arguing) over whether the number "1" is or is not a prime.
Re:Next step (Score:2)
In the integers, it's easy to see that the only units are -1 and 1 (e.g. 5x = 1 has no integer solution, so 5 is not a unit). Because of this, 1 is not a prime element of the integers, and thus, not a p
Explanation? (Score:2)
Proof of twin primes (Score:2)
Obviously that is not at all rigorous but it strikes me as being true.
--Joey
Re:Proof of twin primes (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think you'll find anyone that will make a wager that there aren't an infinite amount of twin primes, but there is no definitive proof.
Basically, for all prime numbers less than the square root of the number between two primes, it's easy to see that it is possible that their multiples could add up to either be on this middle number or at least more than 3 or more away. Pretty much the theory is only going to show that numbers that are a multipl
Re:Proof of twin primes (Score:2)
should have been
for all x where 6x>Q there exists a number z such that z divides 6x+1 or z divides 6x-1
Boring? (Score:5, Interesting)
Are they boring? Yes, exruciatingly and mind numbingly so...
Did they help us win the Second World War? err...yes
From the "I'm about to burn Karma Dept."- (Score:2)
Congrats. You have the first oxymoronic post title on Slashdot.
Having your score as the second prime was just icing on the cake.
Soko
Prime Number Advances (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, I think the technique for provably determining the primality of an arbitrary number in polynomial time -- "PRIMES is in P" [iitk.ac.in] -- was a more unexpected result. It's always seemed like the probability of a twin prime occuring on the number continuum was a limit approaching but never quite reaching 0 -- an artifact of the number of previous primes already "exposed" approaching, but never reaching infinity. But actually sitting down and proving this -- excellent! Very cool.
--Dan
Re:Prime Number Advances (Score:2, Informative)
You'd be wrong, though
Link to the paper?? (Score:2)
ftp://ftp.msri.org/pub/publications/preprints/200
Not too sure but looks like a preprint of the thing
You Smartasses Missed the Error (Score:5, Informative)
``Mathematicians described the advance -- announced at a conference in Germany -- as the most important breakthrough in the field in decades."
Oh, & proving Fermat's Last Theorem in 1995 was just another undergraduate exercise?
(For the non-math-nerds, proving true Fermat's Theorem -- that the formula a^n * b^n = c^n was insolveable where n is greater than 2 -- was considered for three _centuries_ to be _the_ principal challenge in mathematics. The man who did this -- Andrew Wiles -- spent about 30 years working on this, & succeeded only after a second try.)
Geoff
Re:You Smartasses Missed the Error (Score:2)
I was about to correct this but a quick look through Fermat's Last Theorem proves you're absolutely right: he first heard of the problem aged 10 and finally solved it after turning 40 having spent much of his life studying everything about it.
That's a scary kind of dedication, especially for a problem which might not have been soluble.
Re:You Smartasses Missed the Error (Score:2)
Re:You Smartasses Missed the Error (Score:2)
Re:You Smartasses Missed the Error (Score:2)
The problem he has had is that no serious mathematician is willing to REALLY look at it beyond either dismissing the idea out of hand or saying "eh, looks kinda nice, maybe". (I'm not a serious mathematician so all I can say looking at it is "well, if these givens you assure me are true are so, then I can say that from each step to the next I think you're m
Re:You Smartasses Missed the Error (Score:2)
Nitty gritty without karma whoring, poor site /.ed (Score:5, Informative)
Recent work of D. Goldston and C. Yildirim
What are the shortest intervals between consecutive prime numbers? The twin prime conjecture, which asserts that p_(n+1) - p_n = 2 infinitely often is one of the oldest problems; it is difficult to trace its origins.
In the 1960's and 1970's sieve methods developed to the point where the great Chinese mathematician Chen was able to prove that for infinitely many primes p the number p + 2 is either prime or a product of two primes. However the well-known ``parity problem'' in sieve theory prevents further progress.
What can actually be proven about small gaps between consecutive primes? A restatement of the prime number theorem is that the average size of p_(n+1) - p_n is log(p_n) where p_n denotes the nth prime. A consequence is that
delta
In 1926, Hardy and Littlewood, using their ``circle method'' proved that the Generalized Riemann Hypothesis (that neither the Riemann zeta-function nor any Dirichlet L-function has a zero with real part larger than 1/2) implies that delta = 2/3. Rankin improved this (still assuming GRH) to delta = 3/5. In 1940 Erdös, using sieve methods, gave the first unconditional proof that delta 1. In 1966 Bombieri and Davenport, using the newly developed theory of the large sieve (in the form of the Bombieri - Vinogradov theorem) in conjunction with the Hardy - Littlewood approach, proved delta = 1/2 unconditionally, and then using the Erdös method they obtained delta = (2 + sqrt(3))/ 8 = 0.46650... . In 1977, Huxley combined the Erdös method and the Hardy - Littlewood, Bombieri - Davenport method to obtain delta = 0.44254. Then, in 1986, Maier used his discovery that certain intervals contain a factor exp(gamma) of more primes than average intervals. Working in these intervals and combining all of the above methods, he proved that delta = 0.2486, which was the best result until now.
Dan Goldston and Cem Yildirim have a manuscript which advances the theory of small gaps between primes by a quantum leap. First of all, they show that delta = 0. Moreover, they can prove that for infinitely many the inequality
p_(n+1) - p_n (log(p_n))^(8/9)
holds.
Goldston's and Yildirim's approach begins with the methods of Hardy-Littlewood and Bombieri - Davenport. They have discovered an extraordinary way to approximate, on average, sums over prime k-tuples. We believe, after work of Gallagher using the Hardy-Littlewood conjectures for the distribution of prime k-tuples, that the prime numbers in a short interval [N, N + lambda log(N)] are distributed like a Poisson random variable with parameter lambda. Goldston and Yildirim exploit this model in choosing approximations. They ultimately use the theory of orthogonal polynomials to express the optimal approximation in terms of the classical Laguerre polynomials. Hardy and Littlewood could have proven this theorem under the assumption of the Generalized Riemann Hypothesis; the Bombieri - Vinogradov theorem allows for the unconditional treatment.
This new approach opens the door for much further work. It is clear from the manuscript that the savings of an exponent of 1/9 in the power of log(p_n) is not the best that the method will allow. There are (at least) two possible refinements. One is in the examination of lower order terms that arise in his method. Can they be used to enhance the argument? The other is in the error term Gallagher found in summing the ``singular series'' arising from the Hardy-Littlewood k-tuple conjecture. There is reason to believe that this error term can be improved, possibly using ideas in recent work of Montgomery and Soundararajan (``Beyond Pair - Correlation''.)
It is not clear just how far this method can be pushed and what other problems might be attacked using his new ideas; at this point we can't rule ou
Mis-statement (Score:2, Funny)
Why Only Number Theory? (Score:3, Interesting)
His timing obviously relates to his kids age :-) (Score:3, Funny)
Can we can expect his next theorem to deal with prime triplets?
Re:Interesting? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Interesting? (Score:3, Funny)
-Homer Simpson
Maybe we can use it to figure out this prime number thingy.
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apart from that, of course it's extremely boring, but so is everything, until you think of the applications.
Daniel
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Funny)
And the terrorists will win! Quick, ban math!
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Interesting? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Interesting? (Score:2)
karma-whoring and trying to spout something theat looks vaguely mathematical.
e.g.:
"""
Ofcourse, if there is indeed a usufull pattern, it may help to
find the primes---that are required for factorization---faster,
"""
Which is patent nonsense. Finding non-trivial primes is in no way required
for factorisation.
It's not required for trial-division (they're all trivial), pollard rho,
pollard P-1 (all trivial), williams P+1 (all trivial), ECM
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Interesting)
People (or agencies) holding a portfolio of critically sensitive information that has already been transmitted (and therefore probably intercepted in encrypted form) have a vital and sustaining interest in research into prime numbers. In many case their interest is in having such research stopped. It will be interesting to see what happens to super-smart but real-world-naive math Ph.D candidates if and when high efficiency factoring techniques become the subject of dissertations....
-Graham
Re:Interesting? (Score:2, Insightful)
a) the cost to break it should exceed the value of the information it protects
and importantly
b) the time to break it should exceed the useful lifespan of the information it protects
So, hopefully, as the information that has already been transmitted over an insecure network becomes more vulnerable, it *should* also become less valuable because, quite simply, it's becoming old and usel
Re:Interesting? (Score:2)
Daniel
Re:Interesting? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Interesting? (Score:2)
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Funny)
An engineer, physicist, and mathematician are all challenged with a problem: to fry an egg when there is a fire in the house. The engineer just grabs a huge bucket of water, runs over to the fire, and puts it out. The physicist thinks for a long while, and then measures a precise amount of water into a container. He takes it over to the fire, pours it on, and with the last drop the fire goes out. The mathematician pores over pencil and paper. After a few minutes he goes "Aha! A solution exists!" and goes back to frying the egg.
Sequel: This time they are asked simply to fry an egg (no fire). The engineer just does it, kludging along; the physicist calculates carefully and produces a carefully cooked egg; and the mathematician lights a fire in the corner, and says "I have reduced it to the previous problem."
Re:Interesting? (Score:5, Funny)
One per year.
See you in stockholm!
Re:Interesting? (Score:2)
Re:Another Breaktrhough in Barometric Building Hei (Score:2)
Someone has been reading Strata [lspace.org]...
Re:My 2 is bigger than your 2. (Score:5, Informative)
So the question is: Does this happen at very large primes too? Are there primes between 10^50 and 10^55 which are just 2 apart? Note that the primes get more and more seldom, if you move at higher numbers.
The mathematic society knows since a long time that the distance between two neighbouring primes p(n) and p(n+1) is smaller than log(p(n)). But log(p(n)) grows also steadily, even much more slowly than p(n).
The mathematic society knows also that surprisingly small gaps between prime numbers happen von time to time. So the best number known until now was that there is an infinite number of primes p(n), where p(n+1) - p(n) was smaller than log(p(n)) * 0,22... (which grows also, but very, very slowly...)
The breaking news is, that now the factor 0,22... got improved to 0, which doesn't grow at all.
That means: there is an infinite number of primes, for which (p(n+1) - p(n))/log(p(n)) is quite close to 0.
This means: There are infinite often pairs of primes whose difference is quite small... It could easily be that the difference is 2 for an infinite number of pairs, which is not proved yet, but at least the minimal distance of two neighbouring primes does not grow beyond a very low number.
Re:a little birdie told me: we know this. (Score:2)
Wow. You just disproved my theory that everyone with a userid under 10,000 is worth reading.
Re:WHAT? (Score:2)
I know you're just trolling, with your "wake me up when I can buy one at Comp-U-Hut" attitude. Honestly, you can go back to Mothers Against Boomerangs for all I care. But regardless of the sincerity of the question, you've posed a fun one.
The key words here are "mathematical proofs." To look at a much simpler example, how do we know that there are an infinite number of prime numbers? The proof was actuall
Re:Ummm what about the envirorment? (Score:3, Informative)