Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel 662
Reality Master 101 writes "Saw an interesting post on the Experimental Rocket Propulsion Society BBS from John Carmack, who is working on an X-prize vehicle. Apparently he is having a lot of trouble getting Peroxide from the major suppliers, and is possibly thinking of helping someone set up a company to produce peroxide. With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry. But how can it happen when the suppliers won't even sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams? Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"
What kind? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I know where he can get it (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I know where he can get it (Score:4, Funny)
Peroxide only bubbles on contact with a wound, but doesn't hurt.
It tickles! Sometimes I want to wound myself just so I can put peroxide on it, I love it!
Other times, I'm more sane.
Re:I know where he can get it (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Informative)
Thank you for your time,
Frank Russo
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thats really interesting. I wonder if you could use one of these types of engines coupled to the Steam Powered Underwater Jet Engine [slashdot.org]
It would be really awesome to see this tried - although I dont know how much peroxide would be required to produce enough for distance travelling etc....
but still no doubt a perfect match for an experiment.
An explanation about the Kursk comment (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why not NITROMETHANE? (Score:3, Insightful)
Backfire with a vengance.
Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) (Score:5, Informative)
I know of at least 2 outfits starting out with hydrogen peroxide rockets - Armadillo Aerospace (Carmack's outfit) and the infamous Rocket Guy (the toy inventor turned spaceman.)
Research into hydrogen peroxide rockets was done in during WWII, and actually made it into some experimental applications, I believe...
Talk to the Researchers at Purdue (Score:5, Informative)
I think they couldn't get stuff above 80% because of transportation concerns... I believe that they were able to distill the 80% stuff up to higher concentrations. They've also developed catalysts that can be mixed with the peroxide as a colloid to get better performance.
Purdue has just rehabilitated an Apollo-era test facility to do some engine tests. When they get up to full swing, they'll probably have the best facility at a University. Armadillo might want to contact them about using their facility for tests.
If the Armadillo guys have halfway decent designs, I'm sure the Purdue people would love an excuse to light up a new engine.
Re:Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, there were production aircraft powered by hydrogen peroxide rockets. The German Me163 was a rocket-powered fighter aircraft - tiny, but capable of almost 600mph. My flying instructor, who flew in the RAF during the Second World War, said that whenever they saw Me163 fly overhead, they flew in the opposite direction so they could catch them coming back, when they were out of fuel. Otherwise, they couldn't get near them...
There's an article in Flight Journal [flightjournal.com] about them. The description of the engine is on page 3.
Re:What kind? (Score:4, Informative)
The peroxide that people find at the drug store is 3 percent.
The stuff used in rocket engines is extremely caustic, in other words it will burn any organic matter (read skin, muscle, bone, etc.) on contact.
Not to mention the Department of Transportation doens't like it moving over their highways.
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What kind? (Score:2)
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Informative)
When I worked for American Rocket Company in 1988-89, we used 80% Hydrogen Peroxide as fuel for our thrust vector control system. Sixteen injectors at the throat of the main engine nozzle under computer control squirted H2O2 into the plume and it deflected the plume, and therefore the thrust, by enough to steer a rocket.
This was really nasty stuff. IIRC, the only place we could get it was Germany, and we had to jump through all kinds of transportation safety hoops just to get it over here. 80% is a very high concentration, I don't know if Carmack needs this much or not. Peroxide you get at the drug store is 3% H2O2 and 97% H2O.
One of the test valves came back from our engine test site at Edwards and we rinsed it thoroughly with water. Still, when I handled it, traces of the peroxide burned my skin. Very nasty, very painful.
We also worked with other cool stuff like LOX (oxidizer), Silane (for ignition), and my favorite gas, Nitrous Oxide (another oxidizer, self-pressurizing and fun at parties!). I still have a hunk of polybutadiene rocket fuel on my desk as a souvenier; we used to cast that stuff into all kinds of fun shapes, including some you wouldn't be able to show your mother.
Re:What kind? (Score:4, Funny)
Considering it's a bunch of pimple-faced geeks, benzoyl peroxide.
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Interesting)
It may perform a similar function in this vehicle.
Re:What kind? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Interesting)
If I'm wrong on this, blame TLC and their show about the Kursk.
Umm (Score:3, Informative)
The Glonoinha Channel - it's time well spent.
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Informative)
Chemical makeup is H2O2. Pure Hydrogen Peroxide is rather unstable - sunlight can cause it to deteriorate into 2H2O+02, so it requires special care to keep it. It's also caustic - at one time it was used for bleach.
They use it for rocket fuel by passing the H2O2 over a mildly electrically charged platinum grid, which causes it to break into H2 and O2 - an instant, highly combustible rocket fuel.
Soko
Re:What kind? (Score:3, Informative)
This site [tecaeromex.com] even shows someone distilling peroxide to make it more potent, presumably for use as rocket fuel.
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Peroxide (Score:5, Funny)
Re:oops (Score:3, Funny)
Residue? (Score:3)
Since iodine catalytically breaks down peroxide, it is relatively harmless if it lands in the ocean. The halflife would be quite short.
As for reasons for using peroxide, liquids are denser than compressed gasses. It really is that simple.
High Test Peroxide? (Score:4, Funny)
-FF
hair salons (Score:4, Funny)
Re:hair salons (Score:2)
--gal [slashdot.org]
Re:hair salons (Score:2)
Re:hair salons (Score:5, Funny)
PEROXIDE FOR CARMACK! shouted the geeks, sometimes at their monitor, sometimes at their cat, sometimes at their lunch.
It was only the second time since the Karma-for-Guns campaign that Slashdot gained the attention of the public.
PEROXIDE FOR CARMACK! shouted the public, sometimes at their spouse, sometimes at the television, sometimes to the telemarketer.
And soon did legislators of the United States take up the cry, carrying the battle to the floor of the Congress itself.
PEROXIDE FOR CARMACK! shouted the legislators, sometimes at each other, sometimes at the TV cameras, sometimes at their aides.
And soon did the President of the United States take up the cry, carrying the fight to the United Nations General Assembly.
PEROXIDE FOR CARMACK! the president would shout, sometimes at France, sometimes at Germany, sometimes at the teleprompter.
And soon did the world take up the cry, rousing its collective might and pooling together a vast supply of peroxide which was soon delivered to the house of John Carmack. The only man who might have objected was Hans Blix, but the last anyone saw him, he was staring into the mirror, nodding his head slowly and sighing.
And so, one day, Carmack was driving John Romero back from the hair salon. His old friend was raving about this new catalyzing-gel they use. Romero then opened the door, and that's the last anyone saw him. They say the explosion was like "two hundred thousand quad-damaged rocket jumps."
Lable under terrorist (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:5, Informative)
This is exactly the problem. H2O2 can be violently reactive and in fact can even be hypergolic if mixed with certain compounds causing inadvertent accidents. The Nazi's found this out with their Me163's which actually had more losses due to refueling than combat losses.
There are easier and safer ways to make bombs than with H202, but if someone wanted for instance to make a bomb using this stuff it could be done and be quite destructive.
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:4, Interesting)
Never seen the real thing, but read up on the subject a while back. H2O2 isn't hypergolic only mixed with certain compounds, rather the other way around. You can only keep strong solutions of H2O2 (70-100%+ I guess.) IIRC you can only store it in clean environment with pure water (not tap water, pure H2O.) Any impurity in the solution or container will cause it to violently decompose, which is why Carmack wants it and maybe why he doesn't get it (seems unlikely, reading his post.)
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:3, Interesting)
LOX is a powerful oxidizer, too, and reacts explosively even with a greasy fingerprint. With a 90 degrees kelvin boiling temperature it can cause severe cold burns, troublesome ice condensation and makes most materials brittle and more prone to failure.
The Nazi's found this out with their Me163's which actually had more losses due to refueling than combat losses
The problems early German and British rocket builders had with H2O2 are probably related to impurities that caused it to spontaneously decompose. High purity H2O2 available today, handled and stored properly in clean compatible containers and treated with respect is relatively safe.
Chemical, semiconductors and other industries regularly handle much nastier compounds and they are regularly transported in tanker trucks that may be passing not far from your home.
The relative safety of a compound is largely a matter of perception, not fact.
Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey, but we ARE talking rocket science here
Acutally one of the real issues here is that rocket fuel needs to be low explosive (i.e. an oxidizer and a fuel, rather than a high explosive where these are integrated into the same molecule). So there is not a whole lot of difference between what you might buy if you wanted to make a rocket and if you wanted to make a very large, low explosive bomb (think fertilizer/oil, gunpowder, etc).
My suggestion is go liquid fuel-- you can get liquid oxygen without too much hassle (needed for everything from medical to welding) and the fuel could consist of anything from kerosene to acetylene.
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, a high explosive is simply an explosive that expands faster than the speed of sound (a shock wave), while a low explosive remains subsonic. From a practical standpoint, this means that a low explosive will just burn fast unless it is confined. A high explosive is effectively 'confined' by the surrounding air.
I imagine they are going with H2O2 rather than LOX so they don't have to insulate the tank, deal with extremely low temperatures (and ice) as it boils, and of course, deal with venting the tank while filling/counting down, etc.
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Check this link: for mor e info on using h2o2 as a propellant. [astronautix.com]
It's perfectly understandable (Score:5, Funny)
John Pick me Pick me! (Score:3, Funny)
Me: Scientist bob, we need 40 barrels of the stuff by June so Carmack can launch!
Scientist bob: Uhh sir our plants total capacity is only 1 barrell a month!
Me: You fscking Idiot I didn't ask you what our capacity was! I gave you an order!
See you can tell, i'm leaps and bounds better than any other slashdotter here! Pick me Pick me John! Look i'll even put caps on your name!
it's a bird! it's a plane! it's... (Score:2, Informative)
Date: Tue Feb 4 22:02:01 2003
List-archive: http://lists.erps.org/archives/erps-list/
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
"Blond" Emergency (Score:2)
No, I would not. It's too dangerous. (Score:3, Informative)
And no, I'm not being melodramatic. To be useful it needs to be 100%... but you typically won't find it available over 35%. It's a great oxidizer- add a little to your next charcoal fire and enjoy the fumes! (ok, you'd need a catalyst like Manganese Dioxide to do it, but still...).
Manufacture it onsite and hope you don't have an accident with your 100 gallon teflon vessels.... and please do it somewhere away from where I live.
Re:No, I would not. It's too dangerous. (Score:2)
Yes, it's a hazardous material.
Industry works with hazardous materials day in and day out.
From reading the thread, one of the annoyances John is working within is that they only sell by the RAIL CAR. Sounds to me like this stuff gets used in volume, regularly, and is shipped normally.
Also, when you say "you won't find it available over 35%" - do you mean for consumer purchase, or for industrial purchase? You can get nasty, extremely powerful chemicals at very strong concentrations - so long as you buy in industrial size bulk lots.
Actually he isn't being melodramatic enough (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No, I would not. It's too dangerous. (Score:5, Interesting)
Um, you can't get 100% hydrogen peroxide. It exists in equilibrium with water; above a certain critical point it spontaneously (and slowly) decomposes to produce water and dissolved oxygen.
In fact, peroxide is a really great rocket fuel. It's cheap. It's easy to handle. It's environmentally friendly. It can be used in monoprop and biprop engines, depending on what you do with it. It's hypergolic, which means it's trivial to build restartable engines (the shuttle's engines aren't restartable; they can only start with assistance from the ground). It's safe, too --- much safer than hydrazine, the most common hypergolic fuel, which is horribly poisonous, carcinogenic and can be unstable, to boot.
Yes, hydrogen peroxide can be nasty. It's a rocket fuel, for gods' sake --- it's supposed to decompose violently. You just have to be careful, and it's a hell of a lot easier to manage than stuff like liquid oxygen. Now, that stuff really is painful to handle.
Peroxide isn't the best fuel; it's got a specific impulse [nasa.gov] of only about 160-190 seconds when used as a monoprop, but so does hydrazine. And, if you use it as a biprop with kerosene, it goes up to 200-230, which means your ship can have one small tank of kerosene for the main engines and one large tank of peroxide which runs the main engines plus the thrusters. Compare with the shuttle, which uses loads of different fuel types, each with their own storage and delivery systems.
(The best fuels on the referenced page are in the region of 300 to 385. Hydrogen and flourine. Ack!)
But hydrogen peroxide is the perfect choice for a small setup like Armadillo. All you need are a few simple safety precautions --- bleeder valves, non-reactive storage facilities, some basic technical expertise in handling the stuff --- and you're fine.
hm (Score:2)
Slashdotted, here is his post (Score:4, Informative)
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Give Boeing a Call (Score:2)
They would love to have other sources of cash to fall back on in case their commercial airplane division bottoms out again (which is about every 10-15 years).
Dolemite
They think he's a freaking terrorist (Score:3, Funny)
So? (Score:2)
We all gots problems.
Hrm. (Score:2)
Carmack is fragbait. (Score:5, Funny)
Or to be even more cynical, it violates something I consider to be one of Life's Universal Rules, which is this: You should never threaten to cost someone more money than it would cost them to have you killed.
For instance, suppose there's a market need for 20 commercial/military/ISS flights per year, and the government's willing to pay $500M per launch. That's $500M x 20 = $10B a year in pork to use the shuttle and our current unmanned vehicle capabilities. Against that, nobody is gonna build cheap launch capability, because it'll soon be a better business strategy to simply eliminate anyone who comes close.
For instance, suppose Armadillo Aerospace develops tech that enables them to launch a satellite for $1M. With reduced costs, there might be a market for 100 launches a year versus 20. NASA space scientists are elated, because they can finally send an army of cheap probes to every planet, comet, and moon that tickles their fancy. And geeks (myself included!) will rejoice because we can finally read about all the cool science while we're vacationing at the Space Hilton.
The big problem with this lovely picture is that as soon as Armadillo announces its $1M-to-orbit vehicle, $BIG_CONTRACTOR realizes that even if they buy Armadillo outright, the $10B/year gravy train (20 comm/spy satellites at $500M each) is gonna come up $9.9B short (20 comm/spysats, plus 80 space probes and Space Hilton modules, at $1M per launch). Someone will realize that you can hire a lot of assassins and saboteurs for $9.9B.
Congressmen, upon realizing that Armadillo's success will soon mean $9.9B less pork to distribute to their districts, will conclude that a major campaign contributor has discovered an "intriguing" solution to both their respective problems.
Both groups will publicly lament the "accident" at Armadillo that resulted in the flash-combustion of all personnel, and bemoan their sysadmins for the fact that all the offsite backup tapes containing design and technical data were unreadable, and use the "accident" to remind the voting and taxpaying public that space still isn't quite ready for private sector involvement.
I wish Carmack and anyone else trying to provide cheap access to space the best of luck, but I fear for anyone who comes close to achieving the dream.
Armadillo Aerospace is not a corporation (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Carmack is fragbait. (Score:4, Insightful)
>
>For starters, they'd have off-site backups.
Off-site backups which would conveniently be unreadable. "Whoops, the tape heads were misaligned when the tape got written. Aaw, shucks!"
More to the point - while having an "accident" is unlikely - in that the PR costs would be enormous, and no CEO would want to sign off on it, the takeover and burial of the technology is pretty easy.
If the success of a competitor's tech means the loss of 90% of your margins, you buy the competitor.
If the success of a campaign contributor's competitor means the loss of 90% of the pork you can distribute to your Congressional district, and thus, the loss of jobs in your constituency, you make damn sure the FTC ignores antitrust concerns when analyzing the takeover of said competitor.
This isn't really about Armadillo, it's about Shuttle/ISS, and why DC-X, X-33, the frickin' Shuttle "C" heavy lift vehicle, and everything else that could cut the cost to orbit, never makes it off the ground.
I've watched it happen, over and over again, and the only conclusion I can draw is that there's too much money to be made by recipients of pork, and too many votes to be had by spreading said pork around, to ever allow the development of cheap access to space.
Asking Congress, Boeing, and NASA in charge of putting stuff cheaply and reliably in space, is like putting Fritz Hollings, Britney Spears, and RIAA in charge of reducing the cost of CDs. Anyone who threatens the RIAA business model, gets stomped on (Napster) or sued into oblivion and bought out (mp3.com).
(If that analogy strikes you as too karma-whorish, then fine - it's also how Valenti and Rosen would react to putting Rep. Rick Boucher, Napster and Kazaa in charge of the committee to mandate a DRM solution in every set-top box. :-)
Re:Carmack is fragbait. (Score:5, Interesting)
At the world space congress last year, I was talking to Buzz Aldrin's son, who is head of acquisitions at Boeing. He really didn't believe that cheap, reusable launchers were possible (he thinks "billions of dollars in development"), but he said that if we win the X-Prize, demonstrating cheaper launch for even suborbital lobs, Boeing would "just buy us".
From our short discussion, it was clear that we have quite different world views, so I hesitate to read much into his statements one way or the other, but it was a bit curious.
John Carmack
Re:Carmack is fragbait. (Score:3, Funny)
$9.5B .. You still want to make a profit, bub.
Best response to a Slashdotting (Score:5, Funny)
I don't understand... (Score:2)
The plan (Score:3, Funny)
Here's an idea (Score:2)
litigation (Score:2)
Blonde? (Score:3, Funny)
The Danger? (Score:2)
StarTux
Plant closing... (Score:2)
Hunh.
Re:Plant closing... (Score:3)
You might want to post some contact information here -- and send it directly to Carmack. This sounds like exactly what he's looking for, and it might end up saving a few jobs in the mix.
How much? (Score:2)
Re:How much? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not really. It's enough to keep a small handfull of grease-monkeys employed full-time for a year -- not including equipment and supplies. It's probably enough to pay for a part-time production facility -- but that's what Carmack sounds like he wants to avoid.
Stop thinking peroxide, think candle wax (Score:2)
perhaps he should change his technique? (Score:5, Funny)
they are just afraid (Score:2)
- October Sky
?The sorry state of accountability in this country is why McDonalds won't sell hot coffee, ISPs are being harrassed by record companies, and rocket experimenters can't get the needed chemicals.
Please excuse my ignorance, but how hard can it be to make the needed peroxide in the clubhouse?
Dude. (Score:2)
Dude, hydrogen peroxide is like 79 cents at the drug store on my street.
Labeled a terrorist by the BATF, FBI (Score:2, Insightful)
Just went to Taco Bell... (Score:2)
Seriously, though, have they tried the hair salons? Seems to be plethora of blondes that I distinctly recall being brunettes last year running around...
Yeah yeah.
Har har.
Why not just ask Pamela Anderson (Score:2)
In fact, her consumption may be the reason supplier's are loath to part with what they've got. You wouldn't want to stiff your best customer just becasue someone wanted to waste this stuff as rocket fuel, now would you?
KFG
Peroxide fueled the X-15 (Score:3, Informative)
I can Tell Slashdot about my problems too (Score:2)
Make sure it's unionized. (Score:2)
Dumbing down (Score:2, Funny)
Translation (Score:3, Interesting)
Might as well be translated as:
"Does anyone want to start a business that will have its customer database searched routinely under the Patriot Act?"
In Ze New World Order (Score:4, Informative)
There are the liability issues as well if any chemical company ever sells stocks innocently to any terrorists. In a risk-adverse environment, most companies will not take that risk.
Besides, you've seen those Carmack games. They are violent! He creates violence in our children! We must protect our children!!!
Is John Carmack building a bomb? (Score:4, Funny)
I wouldn't put it past Carmack to construct a huge bomb. Everyone knows about his disturbing obsession with the occult (why else would he have made the Doom series like it is?) and his propensity for watching violence, so it's not at all outside the realm of possibility. There are many studies available that prove beyond a doubt that casual use of ultra-violent video games provokes violent behavior in children and adults alike.
Just imagine, if you will, what a person who is exposed to these influences for 12 hours or more per day, and becoming intimately familiar with them, is going to become. Exploring space? Ha! Not likely. But, with large amounts of peroxide that he is trying to procure, he could build a pretty damn deadly explosive device. And who better to do it than the guy who invented exit wounds and exploding body parts in PC gaming? I think the Department of Homeland Security should keep a very close eye on Mr. Carmack - Timothy McVeigh was able to do more with less, and he wasn't nearly as well funded.
Rocketguy has this part down at least (Score:4, Informative)
Of course he does have to buy it (at 50% purity), so maybe that's a problem now too.
H2O2 Rocketry? (Score:4, Interesting)
My favorite experiment was the sulfuric acid mixed with sugar. I thought it was so cool that I quickly used up all the acid and made my Dad go out and find a big bottle of it.
With all the regulations for liability now along with terrorist worries, it is probably impossible to even get half that stuff. No more ice cream made from liquid nitrogen now that I'm out of college.
I think it is just economics... (Score:3, Interesting)
I deal with this situtation everyday as an electrical engineer in the aerospace industry. We ask for something and we get ignored because the amount we are willing to spend or the quantity we want is not worth their effort.
It isn't personal, it is just economics. Money Paid - Product Cost - Product Overhead = Profit. In a chemical business, the margins are typically small, so they need to make it up in volume.
Maybe not such a good idea? (Score:5, Funny)
A bit naive (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus, $100K worth of peroxide may not be a big order to these guys. Small order means that they don't care as much about you, especially if you want some custom spec on it.
What would be better for him to consider is a really experienced procurement specialist, who knows the market and can source things properly. Much better use of money than building your own production facility. Hire someone already in the chemical brokering business to handle the paperwork and pay them a fee for it. Way safer than some enlightened amatuer thinking that it can't be too tough to purify peroxide.
Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:5, Informative)
I am not interested in hearing from every chem major that is interested in starting a business (already heard from a couple, that's how I found out about the slashdot story). However, if anyone here does happen to have a brother-in-law that is a VP at FMC or some such, a little nudge wouldn't hurt.
The full story:
Rocket grade peroxide is stabilizer free, and 85% - 100% concentrated, as opposed to drug store peroxide at about 3% concentration. You can get up to 70% peroxide reasonably easily, but the high concentration stuff is a specialty item.
When we started our development work a bit over two years ago, we were doing some concentration of the peroxide ourselves, which is fine for making small test batches, but you really don't want to be making drums of the stuff, or you wind up spending as much time messing with that as you do building rockets.
We had some initial discussions with FMC about that time, but they weren't terribly encouraging. Shortly thereafter, we made contact with X-L Space Systems, a small company that was producing 98% concentration peroxide and selling it reasonably to several small outfits, as well as NASA and the USAF. I wound up buying a dozen or so drums from X-L, and everything was going well.
The owner of X-L was having such a hard time getting the government to pay their bills on time (he never had complaints about his small commercial customers) that he finally decided it just wasn't worth the headache, and he closed the company down. I was in discussion with him to make a large enough order to justify keeping production open, but we wouldn't need all that much peroxide for nearly eight months, so the storage logistics were looking troublesome. In hindsight, I should have worked something out, even if it was expensive or difficult.
About six months ago, we started contacting FMC again. The details haven't been very pleasant, largely because we keep thinking we are almost there, and it keeps not being the case. If they would just tell me exactly what I have to buy to make them happy, I would gladly do it, but they keep finding new things. That is the "stringing us along" part. They are mumbling again about lawyers and liability at the moment, which we thought had been worked through previously.
We have also spoken to Degussa about production, but they won't sell in drums, only large storage tanks (they supposedly have some drums in the US, but they are "promised to" NASA, and they won't sell them to us). We could live with that, but we broke off contact with them a while ago because FMC was sounding reasonable, but insisting that they be our sole supplier.
This is one of the unfortunate tradeoffs in modern society -- in the 70's, FMC would just ship drums of peroxide to the guys doing rocket powered dragsters without any hassles (one of them sent me a scan of some of his old shipping invoices). Today, fears of liability are larger than basic business drives like making money with your product. I'm not a "back in the good old days" sort, I fully recognize that the other advantages of modern society outweigh the nanny-state disadvantages, but one can always hope for across-the-board improvements.
Other than being almost out of peroxide, things are going very well for Armadillo. We rescheduled a lot of our development now that the X-Prize is fully funded, so we are parallel tracking full scale vehicle development with subscale flight testing.
John Carmack
We'll be nice to them if they be nice to us.. (Score:4, Funny)
What I want to know is.... (Score:4, Funny)
You didn't happen to conveniently place those drums next to the people guarding your facility, did you?
-Greg
Re:Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, I used to work at FMC, although not in their chemical division. In the late nineties, FMC made a huge gamble by selling their defense interests, and diverting funds to hydrogen peroxide production, and lost big. The thought was that the demand for industrial hydrogen peroxide was going to skyrocket (pardon the pun), and it didn't.
When all was said and done, FMC had so much peroxide production capacity that went unused, that it became a huge liability. Where this is leading is that if you aren't going to use let's say more than 100,000 gallons of peroxide, they probably wouldn't think of selling any to you.
Don't take it personally. Oh, and the current CEO was known internally as quite a hatchet man throughout his carreer at the company. Since I no longer work there, I can say that he was quite an asshole (unlike his predicessor). Whenever Neidermier showed up at our site, he canned people with something that approximated a dartboard method (in a large assembly of employees no less). He cuts operations and personnel on a whim, so his inner circle would probably not get on his bad side by giving some charity to a cool project. Sorry to spoil the benevolent VP dream.
-- Len
Re:Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:3, Funny)
Need any more programmers John? I'll work twice as long as anybody you've got for half the pay! I'll teach you how to play Quake 3. I'll even wash your car three times a week and wax it with a chamois. I'll personally distill your peroxide for you at no charge.
I'll be damned if I'm gonna test fly that rocket for you though, I mean, a man's got to draw the line somewhere.
Re:Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
What happened to judges throwing out baseless cases?
What happened to State Supreme Courts actually disbarring these pernicious highwaymen?
Because the lawyers have been so pitiful in policing their own, it looks like Bush is going to do it for them.
Re:Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Try Iraq. (Score:4, Funny)
Ha! (Score:3, Funny)
Rhodium, Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver (Score:4, Interesting)
Well Tecnologia Aeroespacial Mexicana [tecaeromex.com] sells hydrogen peroxide distillation stills [tecaeromex.com] made entirely in borosilicate glass _image_ [tecaeromex.com] that merely removes the excess water. $5900 USD for a 20L unit.
They also sell a special catalyst [tecaeromex.com] _image _ [tecaeromex.com] made of Rhodium, Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver.
They also build rocket engines [tecaeromex.com] for satelites and jet packs. They also race [tecaeromex.com] jet cars and jet bikes. A link to some people [tecaeromex.com] that do this sort of thing....
Some info from the site...
The hydrogen peroxide rocket engines are in fact steam rockets, but this steam is produced by a violent exothermic reaction of the peroxide. When passed through a catalyst pack, it decomposes into superheated steam and oxygen. This steam and oxygen at high pressure is expelled supersonically through a DeLaval nozzle, which produces thrust.
For each volume of liquid injected at the catalyst, after the reaction you get 600 times this volume expelled at the nozzle.
The most important part of these rockets are the catalyst pack, other elements of the system are a stainless steel pressure tank to hold the peroxide, a pressure tank to store nitrogen to pressurize the peroxide, a pressure regulator, a flow regulator, valves, lines and gauges.
The nitrogen is used to pressurize the peroxide tank and push the peroxide outside the tank. When a flow valve is opened the peroxide is injected into the injection plate of the rocket.
The catalyst is made of many silver screens that in the reaction converts the liquid hydrogen peroxide into very hot steam and oxygen at a high pressure, this jet of gas is used to impulse the vehicle.
This kind of rocket together with steam or a hot water rocket is the safest of all the rocket engines. This rocket does not produce flame and between the rocket is considered a cool rocket that doesn't need cooling and can be made of stainless steel.
The Hydrogen Peroxide is the same product used as antiseptic, but in space and rockets it is used at 80% to 98% strength, I use it at 90% and I produce my own peroxide.
The Hydrogen Peroxide is the only product used in the reaction, this places it in the monopropellant liquid rocket fuel classification.
The Hydrogen Peroxide contrary to many false information I read in the web, is a clear liquid, non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product that looks like water but with a great amount of oxygen, thats why in many languages its name is "oxygenated water", this product has a slight biting odor and a little bit irritating for the eyes, at the contact with the skin and the eyes it produces oxidation burns, so you must always wear rubber gloves and a face mask to cover your eyes.
This product increase its stability with concentration, yes!, the more pure and concentrated, the more stable!.
The 90% hydrogen peroxide must be stored in special 5254 aluminum alloy containers with vented caps in shaded or fresh rooms preferably, the product is safer to store than gasoline!, but you must store it in approved containers for hydrogen peroxide service.
The hydrogen peroxide is unstable only if it is contaminated and decomposes easily with almost any impurity, the heavy metals, some strong alkalis and the permanganates decompose it instantaneous liberating a great amount of energy in the form of very hot steam and oxygen.
At this strength the hydrogen peroxide is a very strong oxidizer and upon contact with organic mater it is burned, for instance if you soak a cotton rag with 90% hydrogen peroxide it burns very fast, also it can react in a hypergolic way if mixed with other chemicals.
Re:Probe into Rocket Science (Score:2)
Unbeknownst to many people, including YOUR ignorant ass, is that the first missiles and rockets WERE shaped like the female human vagina. After many aerodynamic tests, the shape was molded back to the shape we have today, which is actually the remaining clitoris.
Therefore, if you have a problem with the shape of rockets, YOU, my friend, have unconscious issues with females, and ergo, you are the homosexual.