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Science Technology

Manipulating the Brain with Magnets 53

Posted by timothy from the the-aliens-have-done-to-me-for-years dept.
hackwrench points to this Boston Globe story, writing "Some guy has figured out how to use magnets to disable or enhance part of the brain." And this is on a part of the science spectrum not occupied by Alex Chiu.
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Manipulating the Brain with Magnets More

Manipulating the Brain with Magnets

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  • Scientific American Frontiers Story (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Isao ( 153092 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @01:01PM (#5168272)
    There is a related story [pbs.org] about using an electromagnetic field to stun a portion of the brain to see how it affects congitive performance.
    Scared the hell out of me.

  • The Truth Machine (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Inexile2002 ( 540368 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @01:16PM (#5168345) Homepage Journal
    While browsing a used bookstore I found a copy of a novel called "The Truth Machine" which I haven't read yet but sounded interesting. Just the implications of being able to force truth and honest under certain situations. I mean, would ANYONE vote for a canditate who refused to subject himself to honesty treatment while in office?

    As scary and twisted the applications of this type of technology could be, I think that the benefits in terms of the direct applications and increased understanding of the brain would be worth it.

    Now, if only we could plug one into the /. Post Comment page and reduce all the troll posts to"In Soviet Russia I'm a pathic looser with too much time on my hands and nothing valuable to say."

    • Re:The Truth Machine (Score:4, Interesting)

      by joto ( 134244 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @01:41PM (#5168476)
      I mean, would ANYONE vote for a canditate who refused to subject himself to honesty treatment while in office?

      Yes. I would be very skeptical to someone that has done so little, that he has absolutely nothing to hide. The fact of the matter is, I would be more skeptical to someone who accepted the "truth machine", if you couldn't even find one interesting thing there. I am not sure what kind of person that would be, but certainly not something I would call human.

      I would also consider it unethical to force anyone to publicly be in a "truth machine" (well, with the possible exception of hideous crimes, etc...). While it might have it's use in some situations, those people listening and questioning should surely have taken a wow of silence. And if the information was used in e.g. a courtroom, huge steps should be taken to protect the vitnesses to limit the information gained this way to exposure by the public (e.g. only by consent of vitness and lawyer).

      • The Truth Machine is a fascinating book. I very much recommend it.

        Briefly, the machine merely indicates whether the peson under examination is intending to lie or not, because the machine is in no position to actually determine truth.

        The book explores the ramifications of such a machine on society and it's quite engaging. For instance, examination by truth machine became necessary for most licensing, and legislation was introduced granting amnesty for crimes committed before the truth machine was available.

        Check it out.
      • "well, with the possible exception of hideous crimes"
        you're forgetting about the percent (suprisingly large) of people that commit so called hideous crimes that actually believe they did not in fact commit the crime. Insanity is such a bypass of polygraph tests...
      • >>"And if the information was used in e.g. a courtroom..."

        There is just a small problem with that (at least in the United States) and it is know as the Fifth Amendment. You know, that pesky thing that says something about a guarantee that no one would be forced to incriminate himself in court.

        Granted, what you are saying is getting information and then using it in court instead of getting it in court, however I do not believe that there is a legal distinction. The result is the same. IANAL.
    • I read the Truth Machine and really enjoyed it, despite the author's extreme liberal bent.

      Basically it's about a really smart dude who manages to create a lie detector that works 100% of the time. (Well, except on him, but read the book to find out why...)

    • International policy? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by phorm ( 591458 )
      That's fine for internal policy... but when said politician is wheeling and dealing with other countries, do you actually want him 100% truthful?
      Well, actually, we're more-or-less trying to just get ahead ourselves and don't give a sh*t about your insignificant little country. If you hadn't found a huge oil deposit then we wouldn't have noticed you at all.

  • Testers? (Score:5, Funny)

    by SoCalChris ( 573049 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @01:18PM (#5168359) Journal
    magnetic stimulators charge up to a whopping 3,000 volts and produce peak currents of up to 8,000 amps - powers similar to those of a small nuclear reactor.

    Ok, seriously... Who would volunteer to have this tested on them?

    Tester: Hey, would you mind if I strap this 3,000 volt & 8,000 amp electromagnet to your head?
    Idiot: What's in it for me?
    Tester: It'll make you go deaf & mute for a few minutes.
    Idiot: Cool! When can we start?
    • Those are just two of many effect this device can produce. And it only has those effects when pointed at a certain portion of the brain, and set to a certain setting. The other effects the device can produce are more benefical. Are you sure you read the whole article?
      • Yeah, I read the whole article, and I do realize that there are other possible benificial uses. There is still no chance in hell that I'm sticking my head in this thing though. If you want to, thats great. I guess your post answers my question about who would actually want to have this thing tested on them!
    • For a lot of medicines, they try them out on prisoners. You certainly won't be getting any convicts signing up for this one, at least not guilty ones:

      "Did you do it?"

      "Yes. Doe!"

    • Re:Testers? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by antithes1s ( 578752 )
      We got to play with one last week in my biopsych class. Pretty fun stuff. My primary motor cortex was stimulated, causing my hand to uncontrollably clench etc... It was only a single pulse TMS so there was no going deaf or anything. Some people can see phosphemes (round blueish-green bubble things) when their viual cortex is zapped though.
    • a whopping 3,000 volts and produce peak currents of up to 8,000 amps

      That says nothing about its magnetic properties. How many teslas does it produce?

  • Run of the mill memory damage (Score:5, Funny)

    by fatcat1111 ( 158945 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @01:42PM (#5168477)

    TMS did induce several seizures in participants in the early years, but researchers have since worked out technical safety rules that prevent them and established that no significant memory loss occurs.

    No, nothing significant. Just the standard 3,000 volts through the brain memory loss. Sign me up!

  • Old News (Score:5, Informative)

    by DaoudaW ( 533025 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @01:48PM (#5168520)
    Here's a story [mcleanhospital.org] on the same researcher from 4 years ago.

    Oh and by the way, the 3000 volts / 8000 amps is to power the magnet; the brain does not get zapped!
    • Well, you're only putting your head inside an 8000 amp electromagnet. I feel *much* better about that idea.

      What's that, like sitting in front 10 x 10^8 CRTs for, say the next 100 years?

      I'd make the old ?/profit gag, but I'm too lazy.

  • Sleeping on Airplanes (Score:5, Funny)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @02:01PM (#5168586) Homepage Journal
    Prediction: the first consumer device to use this technology will be a headband unit that will knock out your hearing so you can actually get some sleep on an airplane.

    It will be sold in Sporty's [sportys.com] for $699 and Slashdotters will complain that earplugs work almost as well.

    The next generation will actually knock you unconcious [johncscifisite.com], leaving nothing to chance.
    • The next generation will actually knock you unconcious , leaving nothing to chance
      Yeah, but then slashdotters will complain a hammer or largeish rock works almost as well.

  • End the war on drugs (Score:5, Insightful)

    by oren ( 78897 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @02:42PM (#5168824)
    Once the technology is out for stimulating the pleasure center in the brain, using this sort of trick, it would be the cheapest, most popular drug ever. Probably made by Sony.
    As a tribute to Larry Niven, they should name it the "WireHead(TM)" after his nickname to the addicts of this "drug". Isn't modern science wonderful?
    I don't want to even think of the potential use of the reverse - directly stimulating the pain center. Shudder.

  • Research opportunities with TMS (Score:3, Interesting)

    by penguin_bear ( 644991 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @02:46PM (#5168836)
    Most interestingly enough though with this TMS procedure is the opportunity to simulate brain injury non-invasively. For the most part, studies particularly in neuroscience, for example neuro-linguistics, occur on post-trauma patients or split-brain patients. In these cases, injuries hardly ever are restricted to one area and problems or symptoms are compounded. From a research perspective thus, this may just offer new opportunities to understand how our brain works- defective so well as healthy functions.
  • Perhaps in a few years they can (dis)prove the braindamage that cell phones and powerlines cause. If 60MW of EM radiation doesn't cause any harm, then I don't think 2W of cell phone EM power will.

    • Re:Cellphones & powerlines (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Deagol ( 323173 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @04:13PM (#5169444) Homepage
      Next you'll be saying that because getting X-rays of your teeth at the dentist doesn't cause cancer, we can all be content to subject ourselves to constant low does of X-rays every day?

      There's a huge difference between the rare large dose of something versus chronic exposure to that same thing.

      • Constant low doses of X-rays every day, like everyone who lives on Earth?

        Sounds horrifying, but who can be sued for it?

        Unless you can identify a lawsuit target, there's no reason to blame your medical problems on it.

      • X-Rays from your dentist _do_ cause cancer. All X-Rays probably do. The point is that the benefits outweigh the (tiny) risk.
      • There is a difference. X-rays you get at the dentist/doctor are several times the power you get daily from the environment. However, emissions from cellphones or powerlines are lower that the daily amount you get from the environment anyway.
        • I have been told that the X-ray dose you get from having an X-ray photograph taken at the doctor is about the same as what you get from taking a trans-atlantic flight due to being at higher altitude for 8 hours.

          They really have medical X-rays working down to extremely low levels of radiation. Not something you want to be hit with every day, or several times a day (which is why the technitions leave the room) but not something that is a big deal to have happen periodically.

  • Alien Abductions (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Deagol ( 323173 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @03:29PM (#5169128) Homepage
    I remember sitting through an entire Sunday afternoon of Discovery Channel paranormal-themed shows.

    One show on alien abducitons illustrated a doctor's theory that magnetic fields caused people to "experience" abductions. They sat some woman in a contraption designed to control the magnetic field in her brain. It wasn't the quick "zapping" described in this article, but was (I think) a continuous state of field applied to the brain.

    It was kinda freaky. Depending on how the doctor had things set, the woman experienced floating, a feeling of paranoia and being watched, and unfocused fear.

    Seemed like a plausible explanation of the adbuction experience. However, I am not convinced that such magnetic fields randomly wind up in people's bedrooms.

    • The Dr. you are referring to was Dr. Michael Persinger from Laurentian University in Canada, whose lab [laurentian.ca] has been doing this kind of research work for a number of years. He has built a "God Helmet" and a newer model called "the octopus" that allows the subject to experience the euphoria of god-like experiences, and the strange effect of time slowing down.

      A previous Slashdot story "Where God Lives In Your Brain" [slashdot.org] covered most of his work on extremely low frequency electromagnetic field effects.

      • He has built a "God Helmet" ... that allows the subject to experience the euphoria of god-like experiences...

        "In the future, there will be a machine which will produce a religious experience in the user."
        -- David Byrne, "In The Future", Music For the Knee Plays, 1984

    • >Seemed like a plausible explanation of the adbuction experience.

      I don't know what the appropriate magnetic fields are for this, but it could easily be that some other chemical or physiological thing triggers the same section of the brain as the magnetic field.

      The magnetic field is a good way to study effects like this, but to conclude that stray magnetic fields are the cause of those sensations "in the wild" is specious reasoning at best.

  • Remind anyone else of _Deepness in the Sky_? (Score:3, Informative)

    by abulafia ( 7826 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @03:40PM (#5169219)
    My first thought was the "read/write" MRIs featured in Vinge's _A Deepness In The Sky_.

  • God Machine (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jayrtfm ( 148260 ) <jslash@noSPAm.sophont.com> on Monday January 27, 2003 @04:30PM (#5169580) Homepage Journal
    Wired [wired.com] has had some stories about this. TMS has been used to create "out of body" and religious experiances.
    I wonder how long before the Scientologists start using this......

  • Magnetotactic Bacteria (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Gamasta ( 557555 ) on Monday January 27, 2003 @05:29PM (#5169950)
    I don't recall if those filaments were also found in humans, but I think so. Small Fe3O4 magnetized filaments. Similiar to those described in a famous article by Blakemore (i read a review in a journal from 1996). Could be the practical effect of strong magnetic fields acting on those strains.

    Something on the magnetotactic bacteria is found at this page [calpoly.edu]
  • So that's what McCoy put on his head when he replaced Spock's brain--TMS v357 SP3. Amazing.
  • this reminds me of a leacture about the new mri machines.. i think a 7 tesla magnetic field. if you walk too fast in the room when its operating, you get dizzy. i belive this is due to currents induced in nurons. also, the person in the machine sees flashes of light because of the same reason.

  • downsides (Score:2, Funny)

    by Tablizer ( 95088 )
    Side effects include constant urge to face North.

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