Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Science

Hudson River Shipwrecks Secretly Mapped 262

jonerik writes "According to this article in the New York Times (registration required) more than 200 shipwreck sites lying beneath New York's Hudson River have been mapped by sonar. In fact, scientists feel confident that the location of every Hudson shipwreck between Manhattan and Troy has now been pinpointed, adding that the nearly oxygen-free mud of the Hudson nearly guarantees that many of the wrecks and their contents are almost perfectly preserved. The hitch? For the time being the maps - paid for as part of the $186 million Hudson River Estuary Plan - are not being published since state officials are nervous about the prospect of so many shipwrecks suddenly being opened up to salvagers on one of the U.S.'s busiest rivers. 'We don't want to ring the dinner bell for people who have ulterior motives and don't behave responsibly,' says Mark L. Peckham, a historic preservation coordinator at the New York State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation. In the meantime, state officials are now attempting to determine the historical significance of the wrecks and how they might be protected, which should hopefully lead to the publication of the Hudson River maps at some future date."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Hudson River Shipwrecks Secretly Mapped

Comments Filter:
  • so (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 2MuchC0ffeeMan ( 201987 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:39PM (#4916248) Homepage
    they don't want to publish the areas of the shipwrecks, but anyone with the money or power to go dig up ships has some ethics in them.

    also, who is to say these ships now 'belong' to the state of NY ? i never understood that, it should be finders keepers.
    • Re:so (Score:4, Informative)

      by Zerbey ( 15536 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:42PM (#4916281) Homepage Journal
      also, who is to say these ships now 'belong' to the state of NY ? i never understood that, it should be finders keepers.

      Perhaps not belong, but I would imagine they fall under the juristiction of the NY coast guard or port authority.
      • Re:so (Score:2, Funny)

        by Qzukk ( 229616 )
        The ships themselves might not belong to the state of NY, but your ass will belong to the coast guard if you park your ship in the middle of the channel to go scuba diving.
    • By the finders-keepers rule, the state found 'em. So they're keeping 'em. What's the problem?
    • salvage rights (Score:5, Informative)

      by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:28PM (#4916699) Homepage
      Actually there's a whole set of rules in admiralty for salvage rights over wrecks. This has come up more and more often as folks like Ballard locate old wrecks like Spanish galleons loaded with gold more easily. The disputes can get a little complicated [post-gazette.com].

      Think of the ship at the bottom as not lost but in long-term storage. Just because someone can get to it before you can doesn't make it theirs. Access is not ownership. But if someone finds the wreck, they should be able to sell that information to the owner.

      No, I can't justify these ancient rules. Changes [redherring.com] may be in the wind.
      • I don't know much about salvage rights and admiralty law, but maybe there's a relevant portion of some state statute regulating shipping and commerce on the Hudson and what happens to sunken ships? *shrug

        More interestingly - what about GE and the whole PCB issue? I see a few problems with anybody digging anything up on a large scale:

        a.) Scenic Hudson (or maybe it was another group, I forget) doesn't want anybody stirring up silt in the Hudson for the purposes of GE dredging the PCB-filled mud, so I can't think that they'd think lightly of lots of treasure hunters doing ths same thing.

        b.) GE argued from the start that the biggest harm in removing the silt would be that it stirred up all of the PCBs which, over time, have become more benign (or at least less latent on the surface of the mud). Stirring them up, they said, would put them back into the fish, etc... this might relieve GE from its primary argument against dredging, so I've got to think they'd be considering it carefully.

        c.) No matter what Scenic Hudson and GE think today about the Hudson, it is well-established that the silt is still chock full of PCBs, and as such, would qualify for treatment as a "hazardous material" upon its removal from the Hudson. Part of the dredging issue was figuring out what lucky Upstate NY town was going to host the geomembrane-protected "silt dump" for disposal of the stuff so it wouldn't leach into the ground and contaminate groundwater, etc. The rule of NIMBY has applied thus far, as far as I know... It would therefore follow that anybody trying to dig up ships would run into a big problem of what to do with the dirt they dug through. (Granted, it's not the whole Hudson, but it still creates an issue if you do anything but leave it there.)
        • Yeah, I was going to mention NY law but decided to keep it generic just to discount "finders keepers." Besides, I don't want to look it up any more than you do.

          On obscure references, for anyone who wonders, NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard

          *

          Funny you should attach this mud Q here -- it was the first thing that crossed my mind because of the GE debate. I thought GE's anti-dredging argument sounded plausible, and I'm an environmentalist, which means that of course if dredging caused more problems I would not be knee-jerk against GE (stereotypes of environmentalist are so ugly :).

          They dredged in Boston Harbor, which has similar issues, to make way for the 3rd harbor tunnel, and put the material called mud on the bottom but toxic waste on the surface into barges. Then the Army Corps of Engineers forbade them from dumping it in Mass Bay as planned. So they had to stop digging with this incredibly expensive rented scoop until they found somewhere to put the muck. Oh yeah, then one of the barges sank at its berth. I think it went to the airport and, ultimately, I don't know. Illustrates how messy this stuff can be.

          Anyway, I assume salvage would not involve that much disturbance of the river bed. Don't worry, if it is an issue someone will raise it.
      • yes but i think every wreck has to be considered on a case to case basis, obviously a 10 year old wreck is diffrent than a 100 year old wreck.

        how many people are still getting things in the titanic? i think that there are rightful owners, but those owners can't really go down there for themselves.

        also, who 'owns' the river/ocean? so if i ever wanted to put something into 'longterm storage' i could just dump it in the water? fun fun

        and please, with the viper analogy, how is that even remotely similar to this?

        i think this is more in terms of finding a $100 bill on the street, dated from 1950. with no claims on record since then.
        • On most of your Q's I have no idea, but I know others have put a lot of thought into them. Every wreck is case-by-case, esp. since the problem is so new, all these ancient wrecks being accessible suddenly.

          how many people are still getting things in the titanic? i think that there are rightful owners, but those owners can't really go down there for themselves.

          I don't knnow, I'd forgotten about it. But if "getting things" is stealing, it's still stealing if they're old and on the ocean floor.

          i think this is more in terms of finding a $100 bill on the street, dated from 1950. with no claims on record since then.

          Sure. But most wrecks are not like that, even ones 500 years old. If a ship sinks with $200 million in gold, the owners remember it.
    • Re:so (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Omicron ( 79581 ) <slashdot.20.omicron@spamgourmet.com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:53PM (#4916967)
      but anyone with the money or power to go dig up ships has some ethics in them

      Bzzzzzzz! Wrong...unfortunately. I've dove at least a dozen shipwrecks now in the great lakes, and ethics are pretty far from the mind of most people. If you want a great example of ethics, go read a book called "Deep Descent - Adventure and Death Diving The Andrea Doria". The Doria is one of the greatest wrecks in the world to dive. However...many people have foolishly died on the wreck in their efforts to collect something as stupid as china plates.

      Salvers may be more ethical (I don't know any so I can't say) but I know that the mentality of a lot of divers is that it's finders keepers. There are underwater preserves in the great lakes, meaning that the shipwrecks are protected. But...most wrecks are found by private individuals and then pilfered of all the interesting stuff before they notify the government. So, when you actually get a chance to dive on the wreck most of the neat artifacts are gone. It's a shame...nothing can compare to the beauty of descended onto a wreck in the dark blue water and crawling through the hatches and seeing old tools, ropes...hundreds of years old. But a lot of divers only see a decoration in their living room.

      Even a recent wreck (10 years old) - the US Coast Guard cutter The Mesquite - is in a protected area. When it was sunk, there were crew uniforms, utensils, logbooks - theres still a copy machine and a radio on the deck. A couple of years after the sinking you could find ad's in diving magazines of crew uniforms for sale from the mesquite. It's a HUGE debate in the diving community, about whether artifacts should stay on the wreck or if they should be collected...but ethics....hrm. More of a feeding frenzy on some wrecks...
    • Re:so (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Joe U ( 443617 )
      Who is to say anything below Tarrytown is even property of the state of NY?

      The Hudson river is bordered by two states, New York and New Jersey. Does NJ have a say in this as well?

      (And No, I'm from NYC)
    • Re:so (Score:2, Interesting)

      by flyneye ( 84093 )
      http://www.melfisher.com/lobbying.html>Mel Fishers site may give you some insite into the problem of treasure hunting/salvage
      Personally,I'd find all of them in probably one trip down river using not much more than a rebent coathanger in a comfy boat with a lil cold beer,but thats another discussion.heck,I'd even tell you depth and position.

  • Sonar? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by docbrown42 ( 535974 )
    Why don't the salvagers get their own sonar rigs? Then they could find the wrecks themselves...

  • National Park (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ifreakshow ( 613584 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:40PM (#4916259)
    The government should make the bottom of the river a national park. This would ensure that the ships are preserved as long as our country. Imagine if the Greeks or Egyptians had done this.
    • Re:National Park (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Zerbey ( 15536 )
      The government should make the bottom of the river a national park. This would ensure that the ships are preserved as long as our country. Imagine if the Greeks or Egyptians had done this.

      First time I read this I almost passed it off as a troll. Thinking about it though, this seems to me a very good idea - there are a lot of Nava Battle sites around the world that are not in international waters (Pearl Harbor for one, which I think is officially a national monuement). Preserving such historical sites is important for future generations.

      Good post that man! (or woman!)
      • Re:National Park (Score:5, Insightful)

        by JordoCrouse ( 178999 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:03PM (#4916490) Homepage Journal
        Preserving such historical sites is important for future generations.

        Unfortunately, we have absolutely no idea how to preserve a ship under water.

        In fact, we are sitting around helplessly watching the Titanic and the ships at Pearl Harbor disintegrate (which, BTW is a very bad thing - since the ships at Pearl still have a lot of fuel trapped within them). The only way we can "preserve" a ship is to raise it out of the water, and that can only be done under certain circumstances.

        So +10 points for the thought, but -100 for complete inability do to anything about it.

        • Undisturbed, wrecks can last a very long time. Look at the the Mary Rose [maryrose.org] or the Vasa [vasamuseet.se]. Both ships predate the declaration of independence in the US. There is also a Viking longship in Norway.

          Raising the ships was difficult. Preserving the ships after they were raised has been a major effort (costing a small fortune) and requiring many thousands of man hours. It is wonderful that the wrecks were raised, but I don't think either the UK or Sweden could have coped with more than one every ten years or so.

          Steel and iron ships are actually harder than wood to raise once they are over a certain page where the hull is substantially oxidised and what you end up with is almost impossible to treat (iron oxide crumbles).

    • Re:National Park (Score:3, Interesting)

      by jazman_777 ( 44742 )
      The government should make the bottom of the river a national park. This would ensure that the ships are preserved as long as our country.

      The old Tacoma Narrows bridge ("Galloping Gertie") that went down in high winds in 1940(?) is a protected underwater landmark. You've all seen the video, right? Wouldn't want the souvenir hunters stripping it to nothing. Although why a collapsed bridge should be preserved is beyond me. It has no historical value at all. It's just a massive engineering failure.

      • everyone has seen teh footage hell it was used in my highschool physics class to explain resonance.. famous == preservation, failure or not.. hell one of hte parents mentions pearl harbor as a national monument, was that a huge success for us? no but it should be preserved anyway, why? so it doesn't happen again.. maybe those shipwrecks are in hazardous waters and now that they have the locations marked they can keep others away from them, whose to say really but making the river/bottom a national park isn't a bad idea.. it's probably already got aspects of it protected under environmental legislation anyway..

    • by BTWR ( 540147 )
      The government should make the bottom of the river a national park... imagine if the Greeks or Egyptians had done this.

      Why would the Greeks or the Egyptians make the Hudson River a national park?

  • i remember some time last year, a couple driving across the george washington bridge (spans the hudson between new jersey and manhattan) reported that a small plane flew right between the supports of the bridge over the deck and crashed into the water.. the police looked into it and sent divers into the water, but it didnt seem like anything came out of it. the couple was supposedly "reliable", according to the Port Authority police (they control all nj/ny bridge and tunnel crossings). i haven't heard anything about it since.
  • by Sir Network ( 183139 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:40PM (#4916262) Journal
    I wonder how many pairs of shoes will be found encased in concrete when the salvage gold rush begins.
  • I guess they have the right since they did all the mapping... but I still think it's funny that they are keeping stuff a secret so the "Indiana Jones" types can plunder the wreaks first. "...That belongs in a museum!!!" -Indiana Jones
    • I guess they have the right since they did all the mapping... but I still think it's funny that they are keeping stuff a secret so the "Indiana Jones" types can plunder the wreaks first. "...That belongs in a museum!!!" -Indiana Jones

      Yeah, but the thing you have to realize is that many of the scientists will actually take the time to document what, where, when, location etc.... in an effort to preserve the history and data in the wreck so that further research can be done.

      I have dived before on wrecks and there are some folks I have seen that literally have no respect for the graves that many of these wrecks are or for the history of those wrecks. These people are out to tear off whatever trinket they can and sometimes those trinkets can be of great historical value. Furthermore, if not properly restored or stored, they can disintegrate loosing whatever value they retained.

      • Mmmm...plunder (Score:2, Interesting)

        I am an amateur treasure hunter. I have been called a looter by archeology types at times. My proposal is this:
        How many historical sites/wrecks can be researched in 100 years? Take this number and double it. Now make a list of these sites. These sites would be "off limits" to looters, er treasure hunters.

        Now if a "new" site is found, in order to add it to the list you must drop an existing site from the list.

        My point is that there are so many sites there is no way they can all be researched, and without "looters" many existing museum pieces would not have been found and available for the public to see and researchers to study.

        Thank goodness for maritime law and the law of salvage....
  • by ArmenTanzarian ( 210418 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:40PM (#4916266) Homepage Journal
    Are the artifacts down there worth all the shots you'd have to get to swim in the Hudson?
    • Are the artifacts down there worth all the shots you'd have to get to swim in the Hudson?

      People swim [nycswim.org] in it all the time. Honestly, your biggest danger is uh...

      Okay, being hit by a floating telephone pole. Satisfied? But you don't need any shots!
    • Re:More power to 'em (Score:5, Interesting)

      by radon28 ( 593565 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:47PM (#4916346)
      People go on an annual swim around the entire island of Manhattan every year, up the hudson, through the harlem river, then down the east river (not actually a river, but a tidal estuary). It's called the Manhattan Island Marathon Swim. the water is actually a lot cleaner than most people would (rightly) suspect. More info at: Manhattan Island Foundation [swimnyc.org]. Even more interesting is the fact that every year, harbor seals and even dolphins can be seen swimming around the Battery Park area in New York harbor (southern most tip of manhattan).
  • by Toasty16 ( 586358 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:41PM (#4916276) Homepage
    I'm selling rights to the Hudson River bottom on ebay, any takers? Also up for sale is a bridge in Brooklyn, good condition, barely used!
    • "I'm selling rights to the Hudson River bottom on ebay, any takers? Also up for sale is a bridge in Brooklyn, good condition, barely used!"

      Didn't some big lizard really mess that bridge up once? I ran across that news story while I was channel surfing one day. Barely used indeed.
  • You know... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Oliver Defacszio ( 550941 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:41PM (#4916279)
    ...you can say what you want about freedom of information, etc, but the saddest part is that this data really would be used destructively by those who would rather have a barge full of salvaged steel than a glimpse into the past.

    It's a serious disappointment that society has arrived (not recently) at a state where truly worthwhile information is rightfully withheld because we, as humans, can't treat things with respect.

    • Re:You know... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      What arrived? Name a time in history where this wasn't the case? I mean even the Pyramids were plundered not too long after they were built. I don't condone the behavior but I am not fool enough to think it is a recent development.
    • Re:You know... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by pmz ( 462998 )
      It's a serious disappointment that society has arrived (not recently) at a state where truly worthwhile information is rightfully withheld because we, as humans, can't treat things with respect.

      This is only devil's advocate: the nostalgic feeling we have towards these shipwrecks is of arguable value, but the monetary value of the ships' materials can provide a direct injection of wealth into the economy.

      Alas, choosing when to be sentimental is often hard (especially when spring cleaning comes around...)
    • Yes, I know. (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by twitter ( 104583 )
      It's very nice of the state of New York, and perhaps the federal government, to take my tax money and not tell me what they did with it or let me enjoy the information collected. I'm glad the government will protect me and my culture this way. It reminds me of the DMCA, another great way my government protects me and my culture by keeping things secret.

      Soon, I hope that they make the whole sea bottom property of the federal government, so that any ship that sinks will be owned by my children forever on the bottom. That way, I know that I'll always be able to get great rewards from today's disasters. As it is, just anyone can go out and riun my heratige. Obviouly, only someone approved by the federal government should be alowed to pick up wrecks from the sea floor. The proceeds can be used to keep me from doing the same thing myself. I know that I'm not special and can't or won't learn how to do things right. It's not like you can simply make a law about how certian wrecks must be documented and share the information about state of the art preservation, now is it? No, I'm sure people will always get around the law if they can for filthy lucre, after all I'm greedy like that and so are so many other posters here who openly say this is such a good thing that New York is doing.

      New York has always been so far advanced in the ways of correct government. Just look at Tamany Hall! Wow, New Yorkers sure know how to co-operate. Exclusive franchises rock, NDAs are wonderful. How else can we maintain such excellence?

  • Permits? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by derch ( 184205 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:42PM (#4916293)
    . . . are not being published since state officials are nervous about the prospect of so many shipwrecks suddenly being opened up to salvagers on one of the U.S.'s busiest rivers. 'We don't want to ring the dinner bell for people who have ulterior motives and don't behave responsibly,' says Mark L. Peckham . . .

    Could someone with some knowledge of major salvage work give some words on wether or not a permit is required?
    • by ronmon ( 95471 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:39PM (#4916820)

      I work for the outfit that is doing this survey [melfisher.org] and a couple others here in the keys plus one each in Portugal and Morocco (RPM, not Mel Fisher's). Putting aside the overseas projects, since that involves several more layers of bureaucracy, and not knowing the laws covering the Hudson, I can only give you an idea of what happens here.

      Just about anything inside the reef is within the Floida Keys National Marine Sanctuary (FKNMS), so we have to pull a permit from them as well as from NOAA. FKNMS is a joint state / federal authority and NOAA of course is federal. In some areas we are allowed to do non-invasive surveys, such as towing magnetometers, a sidescan sonar or a sub-bottom profiler. Any excavation, which is done scientifically and with respect for the site, requires a separate permit. All data collected, whether from towed surveys or excavation must be shared with the permitting agency but is otherwise proprietary.

      Hey, it's expensive to do this kind of work and there are plenty of treasure hunters that would love to get a hold of some of our "numbers". But as the article points out, those wrecks are mostly the workaday variety and probably of little commercial value. I think they are doing the right thing by holding back until the historically significant sites can be identified and protected even if the Hudson is not exactly a diving hot spot.

  • I'd be more interested to hear how many people are swimming with the fishes in the Hudson River. I'm sure the NY mafia have fitted many people with concrete galoshes over the years. Maybe the'll find Jimmy Hoffa...
    • "concrete galoshes". A fan of the origina "Star Trek" TV series, I see :-)

      Seriously, it's interesting that the article says they (the wrecks) would be well preserved because of the "lack of oxygen" at the river bottom. I guess this could apply to people wearing cement overshoes, as well. And sisce there's no statute of limitations on murder ... :-)

    • Hello? Everyone knows Hoffa is buried in the endzone at Giants stadium. Damn tourists.
    • Well, considering Hoffa was last seen just outside of Detroit [crimelibrary.com], I think it's unlikely that the mobsters killed him, drove him to New York, and tossed him in the Hudson.

      It would seem to be an unnecessary risk to dispose of the body that far away.

      --T
  • Titanic (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Foxxz ( 106642 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:43PM (#4916300) Homepage
    I think i recall how US Navy technology found the wrecked of the Titanic. Despite that US funds were used to find the wreckage a French company brought up a small peice of it and therefore claimed rights to salvage. This left many people angry, especially relatives of passengers on that wreck who want their loved ones remains to be left alone. This bears similarity to this case here as responsible salvage companies need to be selected and given scrict guidelines on recovery procedure on a busy waterway.

    -Foxxz
    • Re:Titanic (Score:3, Insightful)

      by f.money ( 134147 )
      The Titanic was/is in international waters. The Hudson is in NY state. BIG jurisdictional difference.

      Not sure what the right answer to this is, but keeping it under wraps for the time being seems to be the wise course of action.

      Jon
  • Possible disaster... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by craenor ( 623901 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:43PM (#4916301) Homepage
    The Hudson (according to some) is loaded with PCB's from old General Electric dumping in the river. While they continue to fight the legal and environmental battle to decide how that's going to be handled...

    The last thing they need is a bunch of yahoo's with treasure maps digging around in the sediment and silt looking for treasure while dredging up 80 years worth of PCB's.

    The biggest opponents to cleaning the PCB's out of the river point to the environmental impact of disturbing all of this sediment. Imagine the nightmare when Joe Adventurer goes out and starts digging up the River.
    • by franimal ( 157291 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:09PM (#4916533) Homepage

      I just want to clairify a point that often gets lost. It seems to be common belief that the PCBs in the Hudson River are locked in the the sediment and just so long as nothing disturbs the sediment everything is A OK.

      This is purpetuated by GE's ad campaign that shows pretty graphs with the PCB concentration dropping of dramatically in the 1970s (I can't remember exactly when) and saying "The River is healing itself!" What GE don't tell you is that this dramatic decrease is a result of them ceasing pollution. The PCB concentration in the water droped because GE stoped pumping PCBs into the water! NOT becasue the river is healing itself.

      Furthermore, PCB levels in fish have remained constant. There is a reason you are not allowed to eat the fish in the Hudson River (only catch and release is allowed). I know of no real evidence that the PCBs remain 'locked' in the sediment.

      To me this is a damn good example of a successful advertising campaign. The EPA really dropped the ball when GE spent millions and they [EPA] didn't respond in turn. Just look at the number of no dredging signs in the area, or if you're from the area ... chances are you've been visited by a GE PR rep (think kid on summer job) with nice fliers. I know I have. The kid was actually happy to get the other side of the story from my father, who is in a position to know damn well what goes on in that river.

      Oh yeah, one other thing: modern dredging techniques don't use those bucket chains on the GE fliers ... they use a vacuum technology that prevents recontamination of the river bed.

      My personal opinion is that GE should clean up their mess (ATM). And the EPA should have and should do a much better job with advertising.

      And to stick with the parent ... you're right ... you really do not want Joe Adventurer (without advaced equipement) stiring things up. No sense in making things worse, again.

      • Good post, just one thing that bothers me:

        And the EPA should have and should do a much better job with advertising.

        Doesn't that stike anyone else as a little off?
        It's not the EPA's job to buy comercials during Oprah or Star Trek. LOL

        -
      • I live in Queens along the Hudson river, right by a park with a fishing pier. Since there are signs that show you can eat 1 serving a month from the river and there is a fish cleaning table, you can, in fact, eat the fish.
        What I think you are refereing to is the Upper Hudson River (between the Federal Dam at Troy and Hudson Falls). Catch and release is still the rule there.
        http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/f ish/uphu dcar.html
    • The EPA forcing GE to pay to dredge up part of the hudson because of PCB's. [epa.gov]

      I think the decision weighed whether it was better to leave the PCBs there or to remove them. They decided in the long run it was better to remove them as PCBs don't break down naturally and have a nasty habit of moving up the food chain.
  • Any sort of technology that is available to the upper echelon eventually trickles its way down to the common person wishing to use it for "ulterior motives."

    I should think that a more prudent way of handling this project would have been to map all of the ships, catalogue them, survey them individually (with divers, remote subs, or the like), and only then proclaim a successful project. At the same time, you could publish the maps without a problem.

    To announce to the world that you have maps simply invites people to use whatever means at their disposal to procure them--social engineering, hacking at computers storing the maps, or good old-fashioned information leaks.
  • by wwwssabbsdotcom ( 604349 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:44PM (#4916317) Homepage
    ...in a Cessna 172 and the ceiling of the NYC airspace down south of the GWBridge is 1000 ft, so we'd fly down the NYC side at 600 ft and down and around the statue of Liberty, then up the NJ side to Alpine tower. I haven't flown in years, but Im sure the regulations are MUCH stricter since 9/11.

    On a second note, how many PCBs are in the riverbed and would be disturbed and brought downstream. Dont know if they'd "stir up" the environmentalists by suggesting going down for the wrecks/moving them.

  • The insurance companies may have standing to intercept any salvage operation of the wrecks.

    Once the insurance company pays out the claim they own the ship and cargo. If a salver raises the ship or cargo then the insurance company can collect on the find.
    • by bluGill ( 862 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:56PM (#4916984)

      Well, yes and no. I do not know all the issues involved, suffice to say it is complex, so if you want a real answer see a lawyer.

      That out of the way, the insurance company only owns the wreck until the abandon it. If you try to salvage a wreck and the insurance company can prove they are in the process of trying to get it, then it belongs to them, and they can decide what to pay you for your efforts (read they will screw you).

      However if you salavege a wreck long after it happens, and the insurance company has made no effort to get it, then it is assumed the insurance company has decided that the cost to salavage the wreck is greater than the benifits of doing so, and it is yours for the taking.

      The key is while the insurance company is making efforts to raise the wreck it belongs to them. I wouldn't start any salavage operation without consulting a lawyer. International waters are a little more tricky, if you can get the loot to the right country you might be able to salvage it from under the insurance company.

      Insurance companies generally don't bother with salvage unless they suspect the operation will turn up something other than the loot. Evidence that they don't have to pay the claim due to fraud is worth more than the claim itself if it keeps others from fraud. In minnesota they have divers bring up all outboards dropped overboard even though it often costs more than the claim because it teaches people that throwing a moter overboard will not get them a new one.

    • weren't insured in the first place, and of those that were most of them are of little or no actual salvage value.

      We aren't talking huge Spanish Galleons loaded with Inca gold here, nor are we, as some other poster suggested, talking about anything worth salvaging for a barge full of steel. Albany is no "El Dorado." Trust me, I know. And Coxsackie is pretty dipshit NOW, let alone 200 years ago.

      For the most part we aren't even talking "ships" in the modern sense, but rather "boats," and wooden ones at that. A few odd "pleasure" vessels maybe, but mostly small trade "ships" ( such as the 90 foot wooden sloop Clearwater) and military vessels of the smaller kind such as might have patroled the river during the Revolutionary War period.

      Most of the trade vessels were carrying cargo such as the average upstate NY farmer of over one hundred years ago might want if they were heading upriver, and food stores if they were heading down. Bolts of cloth, hoes and rakes, pumpkins, things of that nature.

      For all practical purposes no part of these vessels or their cargos would be worth a damn to a salvager or insurer for financial gain, and the military vessels could already be claimed to be the property of the government.

      No, what's valuable on these vessels is simply the information examining the vessels themselves might provide. Like how they were built. How people lived on them. What kind of farm tools and fabric went up the river when, and what kind of food came back down.

      The only "salvage" here, for the most part, is historical knowledge. However, one guy rooting around in SCUBA gear ( and for the most part any of these wrecks would be accessable to an amatuer diver in SCUBA gear, no huge "recovery platform" needed. It's just a river bottom) looking for an 18th century button or something that he can put in a parts drawer and forget about could completely destroy an archeological site beyond recovery by the experts.

      This is what they're worried about, not someone dragging up a 20 year old oil tanker's anchor and selling it for scrap.

      KFG
  • Wise course (Score:3, Insightful)

    by the_rev_matt ( 239420 ) <slashbot@@@revmatt...com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:44PM (#4916322) Homepage
    I think that from a historical significance perspective, this is not a Bad Thing(tm). Allow the museums etc first shot at those wrecks of historical interest before the vultures descend.
  • by Badgerman ( 19207 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:45PM (#4916328)
    All other things aside, I find that declaring the contents of a publicly-funded project to be secret is food for thought. As big as I am on openess, I can understand the decision to hold off for now.

    My take is that the information is public knowledge, but releasing it would destroy public safety and public history. What needs to be done is a massive, organized effort to salvage and record the vast wealth of finds. Maybe private companies could be involved.

    Interesting to think of - I wonder what other cases of withheld public information may be justifiable . . .

    • There are other solutions to this than to simply hope nobody leaks the maps, which is what they're doing (actually, what they're doing is akin to telling people you have $10,000 buried in a can somewhere in your nice garden, but you won't tell them where. Tomorrow the garden will be gone...)

      For instance, they could provide the information, along with notices that disturbing the PCB laden sediment is hazardous, as well as illegal. Then go and actually bust the people who decide it was worth the risk (use the map data to see where to catch them)

      In the end, I suppose the decision has to be made based on whether the government thinks it can beat back the blithering idiot masses who don't care.
      • For instance, they could provide the information, along with notices that disturbing the PCB laden sediment is hazardous, as well as illegal. Then go and actually bust the people who decide it was worth the risk (use the map data to see where to catch them)

        Good idea and a good point. This is a case of "The cat's not out of the bag, but we let you know we've got a bag and a cat."

  • by tgd ( 2822 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:46PM (#4916338)
    Kartchner Caverns is a perfect example of a case when a state government spent a lot of money and effort researching and protecting a site of significant (in this case) natural importance without disclosing any of the information to the public until the "right" time. In this case, even the fact that the money was being spent, and what it was being spent on was, from my understanding, kept completely secret.

    I'm sure there will be people on here screaming that the government has no right to keep the fruits of labor paid for by taxpayers money a secret, but it sounds like NY, just like Arizona, is doing it to protect the sites they have invested a lot of time and energy in.
  • Judging from the picture at Hudson River [hudsonriver.com], the river seems to be quite small compared to the people on the bicycles, soldiers, and horses.

    What's the big deal about mapping such a tiny thing?

    And check out the miniture bridge, what's that about...

  • wow, for once pollution is a good thing, if you're a historian.

    speaking as a former resident of Troy, i think the O2 free hudson should be more of a concern than mapping the shipwrecks. not to get all partison, but the next time an anti-environmentalist raves that pollution isn't a problem, have him/her go for a dip in the hudson and see how many simultaneous illnesses they come down with. eeew.
    • Many bodies of water are unswimable without benefit of pollution. I found this out when I was 8 and jumped into a stagnant pond for a swim. Amoebic Dissentary is not a joke, and crapping napalm is not fun.
    • Ummmm,I believe they are talking about the mud being O2 free, not the river itself.

      And as to getting ill from taking a dip, give me a break. Maybe down around Manhattan (especially the East River), but not for us upstaters. I've been swimming in that river since I was a kid, and let me tell you, when I was a kid (mid 70s)the toxins were flowing fresh daily. Yeah, there were limits, anytime a bunch of fish or clams etc washed up on the beach dead we couldn't go swimming (and usually wound up bagging some samples to see what killed them this time around). So taking a dip won't kill you, eating the local fish will.

  • for the link of actual map or the map itself.
  • Dirty Politicians (Score:2, Insightful)

    by ifreakshow ( 613584 )
    1) Map Bottom of Hudson River Don't release information to the Public
    2) Give "rights to salvage" to political contributors
    3) Profit
    • 1) Map Bottom of Hudson River Don't release information to the Public
      2) Give "rights to salvage" to political contributors
      3) Profit
      The crazy thing about politicians is that they do these steps in a different order: 1, 3, then 2 (maybe)
  • What about the PCBs? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Eagle7 ( 111475 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:51PM (#4916393) Homepage
    Wait... there is a big ass plan to dredge the river to remove PCBs from the riverbed... so it seems that either:

    Dredging the river will decimate the shipwrecks

    or salvaging the shipwrecks will spread PCBs back into the river, which is one of the big problems with dredging

    More info is at the EPA [epa.gov]. The article doesn't really mention this, which seems odd, since the PCB/Dredging issue has been a hell of a hot topic in the Upper Hudson Valley for the past year or two.

    • It took my brain a few minutes to click that people aren't talking about Printed Circuit Boards.

    • About a year ago in DC, I heard radio commercials about the Hudson PCB issue all day long for about a month. GE and opponents were really trying to make a point to the general population in Northern VA and DC for some reason. They did not appear to be candidate related so I doubt it was for the elections. Maybe trying to gain support for a big contractor or something. Same with the Joint Strike Fighter contract and the Tauzin/Dingell bill.
  • I mean really, what Soviet sun skipper could resist hanging out on the bottom next to a wreck?
  • How does Jimmy Hoffa look on a sonar scan?

    Jason.
  • other sites? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by chunkwhite86 ( 593696 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:11PM (#4916544)
    I think it's extremely cool that they found 200 year old perishable goods like leather and potatos preserved by the mud.

    In think it would be even cooler if there was a similar project in europe or the middle east - places that have way more history than the US.

    The oldest ships you'll find in the Hudson are going to be ~2 hundred years old. Imagine finding a shipwreck in the mediteranean, red sea, black sea, or caspian sea thats ~2 thousand years old!!
  • by circletimessquare ( 444983 ) <circletimessquare.gmail@com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:25PM (#4916662) Homepage Journal
    i was a tour guide on the hudson for new york waterway for [nywaterway.com] awhile.

    there is supposedly pirates treasure. [hudsonriver.com]

    it would be nice to find one of these [columbia.edu], called "General Washington's Watch Chain."

    maybe a german u-boat? [uboat.net]

    or relics from the age of steamboats [ulster.net].

    the hudson is also pretty deep in places [highlands.com]. off of west point, for example (206 feet), or near bear mountain bridge (165 feet). it is an ancient river, as old as the appalachians. some of it was carved during the last ice age, and is similar to a norwegian fjord. plenty of room down there.

    check this gem out, [hudsonvalleyruins.org] bannerman's island. an old arms dealer from the spanish american war blew up the castle he built with his business profits by locating his arsenal right next to his castle on his private island. oops. i've kayaked around it and can make out weird shapes in the shallow muck between the island and the shore. wonder what you would find near there! ;-P
  • I'm surprised they aren't trying to pull them off immediately. When the Yacht Club (I know I know, buncha dorks) here at Stevens Tech lost a boat (dinky little thing), the school was planning to leave it at the bottom because it the cost of bringing it up would be too much. Then the Army's Engineer Corp found out and went crazy about all the rules we were violating.

    It's too bad our seniors are too incompetent to get a winning entry in the underwater autonomous submersible competition... It'd be cool to explore the wrecks ourselves...
  • too late (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lazlo ( 15906 )
    'We don't want to ring the dinner bell for people who have ulterior motives and don't behave responsibly,'

    Sorry, you're too late. The people with ulterior motives who don't behave responsibly have already been elected, and were the ones that directed the study to be done. They now have the information, and aren't giving it to the rest of us.

  • Hitch? (Score:3, Funny)

    by mbogosian ( 537034 ) <matt@arenaunl i m ited.com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:00PM (#4917032) Homepage
    The hitch? For the time being the maps - paid for as part of the $186 million Hudson River Estuary Plan - are not being published since state officials are nervous about the prospect of so many shipwrecks suddenly being opened up to salvagers on one of the U.S.'s busiest rivers. 'We don't want to ring the dinner bell for people who have ulterior motives and don't behave responsibly'....

    Geez, with over 200 wrecks, couldn't you just drag an anchor down the river and disturb at least a few? Or would suggesting that make this post a ``troll''?
  • Clive Cussler, on top of writing the really good (to me, anyway) Dirk Pitt books, is an avid hunter/finder of wrecks. This book The Sea Hunters [simonsays.com] Goes into depth on what he had to go through to find and bring up some of the historic wrecks he was involved in, as well as some quasi-fictional accounts of the ships last hours before sinking. Kinda neat stuff. More interesting is the levels of beurocracy and government meddling and even downright seizure he had to deal with in some cases. I highly reccomend this book to anyone interested in learning what really goes on in finding/salvaging ships. Maeryk
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:14PM (#4917144)
    Note: This is posted as AC because my employer is directly involved.

    What I don't understand is why the City of New York is doing it this way.

    I'm employed by my local city government and within the last several years we've been developing a Geographic Information System. GIS is basically digital photos of the entire city with various meta data attached (street names; water, sewer, & electric lines; zoning info; etc.).

    Long story short - it required photographs taken during VERY expensive fly-overs. Not only is the city going to use the GIS information internally (police, fire, planning, and engineering departments), but in an effort to recoup some of the costs the city is planning on selling the information to local businesses. How do you sell information that is publicly owned? Simple - don't let the public own it.

    What they're doing is leasing access to the GIS data, but allowing a 3rd party (the ones who did the fly-overs) to actually own it. The city is then under no legal obligation to allow the public to get to it for free.

    Why couldn't New York do the same and allow whoever did the sonar scans to own the data?
  • Whoops (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Enry ( 630 ) <.enry. .at. .wayga.net.> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:21PM (#4917216) Journal
    The Hudson is VERY heavily polluted with PCBs dumped by GE over the years. It got to the point where the govt. (EPA) has told GE to dredge the river and clean it out. GE's response is that the PCBs are now 'safely' underneath the bottom of the river, and dredging will do more harm than good, as dredging will stir up all the crap and get it back into the river again.

    On the one hand, you can't fault GE for this line of thinking, as much of the dumping was done before the harm in PCBs were realized. On the other, if you treat an area like a sewer, you should own up to doing some sort of cleanup.

    All that being said, there will be a big ecological impact if you're digging up ships buried for 400 years, well below where the PCBs are.
  • There is a museum of a shipwreck from the 1880s or 1890s. They have all kinds of cool shit that was preserved perfectly in the mud. Really, these ship wrecks can be a historian's wet dream.
  • by StefanJ ( 88986 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:55PM (#4917529) Homepage Journal
    Yes, it's true.

    The bottom of the Hudson is littered with wrecks containing priceless cargo from the Golden Age of industrialism in upstate New York.

    Imagine the riches that await:

    • Fine buggy whips from the fabled Penobscott& Murchison Leather Goods mill (Cohoes, NY).
    • Enamelware basins, "the scullerymaid's friend," from Bleemer & Son's of Schenectady.
    • The finest Adirondack buckwheat.
    • Um, ice. From the pure waters of Blue Lake.
    • Top-quality telegraph line insulators from Port Jervis.
  • Senior year of college I was sitting on a dock on the Hudson when some freshmen came down, stripped down to their undies, jumped in, then got right out, got dressed and left.

  • "Hudson River Shipwrecks Secretly Mapped"
    shouldn't that be:
    "Hudson River Shipwrecks map kept secret"?

Those who do things in a noble spirit of self-sacrifice are to be avoided at all costs. -- N. Alexander.

Working...