Egyptian Pyramid Rover Finds... Another Door 564
JoeRobe writes "In what appears to be more evidence that ancient Egyptian architects had a sense of humor, MSNBC is reporting
that the pyramid rover has determined what was behind the door at the end of a mysterious shaft alluded to earlier - another door."
Not surprising (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not surprising (Score:3, Informative)
A bit of history here (Score:2, Informative)
For years Zahi Hawass has claimed that there is "nothing" to see up the shafts, that there is no "door". Now, he's gone 180 degrees and claims there IS a door. The whole thing is a circus, and Zahi Hawass wants to be ringmaster. He also wants to lay claim to whatever is behind that door--they've completely locked Gantenbrink out of this whole procedure, hijacking what is rightfully his "claim".
VERY MISLEADING (Score:5, Insightful)
>and his team discovered the door some years
>ago. Zahi responded by rushing them out of
>the country and making sure that they
>wouldn't be able to come back.
This is actually a VERY misleading statement. Gantenbrink, by way of Robert Bauval, let the word out on the findings of the 'door', whereas it is standard procedure for *everyone* who is doing research there to go thru the Council of Antiquities FIRST.
That Bauval was associated somehow with it is probably what tipped the balance (for fairness, you can read Bauval's account of the events in Secret Chamber by RB, chapter 9 I believe). The combination of having an "alternative" historian (that means one who cherry picks his 'evidences') together with the the breaking of the rules relating to announcement of discoveries is a big no no for egyptology, simply because these things get out of control, in terms of wild and completely unfounded speculation, REALLY quickly.
Many might not realize this, but there is a huge *industry* revolving around the "mysteries" of ancient egypt, where authors who know very little of (or chose to ignore) the HUGE coherent picture that egyptology is, ignoring montains of evidence supporting it and countless others that go against their own "brilliant" speculation, end up transforming a culture into a "legacy", heavily hinting at mythical places such as Atlantis (a spurious story already of which ONLY plato talks about, and in terms heavily metaphorical), and often sliping into concepts like "noble or higher race" and the like.
The world of "alternative egyptology" is fascinating at first glance, but is roten from the inside, trust me on this.
Another point is that the "door" hardly is a door, as it is located in a shaft that is 8x8 inches, unless someone has a book to write about little beings using this shaft as a corridor for their daily affairs (I suspect this would easily be linked to our alledged martian legacy in a sleight of hand). The two "handles" could be many things, but even if they are handle, that doesn't make the thing a door, it just makes it a plug, with handles.
The third thing i'd like to mention is the latent hatred of that "alternative research" community toward people like Zahi Hawass, who has, despite these people crave to dig everywhere, been dedicated to protecting and researching the Giza site for many decades. Granted Zahi has a big mouth, granted he doesn't know how to talk to journalists, but his dedication and honnesty are obvious to anybody who looks into the field (and no, reading Graham Hancock's 'work' does not qualify). Mark Lehner is in a somewhat similar yet different position, since as an ex-Cayce believer, he began his career with the goal of finding things like the "Hall of Records" (his academic training was financed by ARE, the Cayce fundation). Having learned a lot since his debuts, and having grown up, he is now bashed by his old buddies for being honnest. (don't you find it strange for instance that RB's "orion correlation theory" used to 'lock' giza to 10500BC, just as Cayce 'predicted' ? Thorough examination shows there is no such lock to such an epoch to be found, and the OCT has now been reduced to a "astetically pleasing representation" that lacks any form of precision, and hence any predictive power, rendering 10.5kBC completely and utterly arbitrary)
The way I see it, "alternadoxy" is jumping to the gun on this, let's just wait and see what they find, if they indeed find anything, because whatever is or isn't there, it'll be one hell of a special.
The alledged hijacking of Rudolf Gantenbrink's work is a straw man, Gantenbrink is refered to in all the papers you will find in academia relating to the exploration of the shafts. The nature of research dictates that one researcher follows another on a site, research is not for personal glory, it's about uncovering the truth. That Gantenbrink isn't always mentioned in the press is not the big deal that "alternadoxy" makes of it, after all, Dyxon isn't either and probed the shafts many decades before Gantenbrink (in his probings, he did find that the southern queen's chamber shaft seemed to be blocked at the height we know of today as the location of the plug). Also Gantenbrink has been associated with this special, if only in providing his experience to the i-robot team.
As for "why so long?", well the pyramids aren't going anywhere, these things always take time, specifically because we do NOT want to rush in. I think the REAL question to ask is
Why NOW ?
Well, think about it, it'll probably boost egyptian tourism by solving a mini-mystery. That tourism took a big blow after 9/11.
Now THAT qualifies as very good reason to be doing this now rather than later.
Re:VERY MISLEADING (Score:5, Interesting)
Both this comment [slashdot.org] and its parent [slashdot.org] appear in the previous story ("Egyptian Pyramid Mysteries to be Explored Live") just take a look at the title of each page.
Digging the Weans (Score:3, Insightful)
As to this 8"x8" shaft with two doors... my guess is that it was either an air shaft or a communication shaft (much akin to the speaking tubes used on board large ships, before the advent of modern electronics). Which is just common sense architecture in a project that large. Why go way the hell outside to communicate with your supervisor when you can just shout up the handy tube?? Not to mention that it's kinda hard to work if everyone has breathed all the oxygen out of the air supply already.
Re:Digging the Weans (Score:3, Interesting)
And the plugs could be simply to keep out rats once the project was finalized.
Something else to remember -- the Egyptians were damned good engineers, but until relatively recent times (mid-1900s or thereabouts) stress force math wasn't sufficiently understood. That's why so many ancient and medieval structures are still standing -- they were construction overkill (ie. built a lot stronger and heavier than was actually required for the building to hold up to everyday use). Also sometimes an engineer died and no one had any clue how he meant to finish something, so it gets truncated and then you have doors to nowhere.
Good example of construction overkill: Paris Gibson Jr. High School in Great Falls, MT. The old part of the building, from ca. 1920, is built to "ancient" standards -- it looks like this wall needs to be thick, so it IS thick. WAY thicker and stronger than necessary. The new part of the building (ca. 1950) was built more in line with modern construction -- sufficient to the project. Along comes the big Yellowstone earthquake.. the 1920s section was undamaged; the 1950s section wound up condemned. (You can see it being blown to bits in the opening sequence of the film "Telethon".)
Stuctural overkill is why we have still pyramids to argue about today.
Re:VERY MISLEADING (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A bit of history here (Score:3)
Again, I say if the pyramids were in America, only American archeolgists would be "permitted" to study them. Same goes for just any other nation of the world (especially China).
Is there something behind the second door? We'll find out soon enough... but I think it's great that after 3000 years the pyramids still have not surrendered all of their secrets. Even in the technology age, the pyramids hold tight their secrets! I would have said their "last remaining" secrets, but who knows 10 years from now maybe some young Egyptian student will find something else to intrigue us all.
Re:A bit of history here (Score:3, Interesting)
They went on to claim that the term "back-breaking labor" may have orginated among those building the pyramids because their bones were so racked and broken. I wonder, what would the bones look like if they were slaves?
The stupid assertion that the population of the camp was split among men and women is also stupid. Even the dumbest tyrant knows that an all male slave army only last one generation.
Where's Geraldo when you need him. (Score:2, Funny)
Exactly my thought (Score:2)
The fact that it was on Fox was another big tip...
And behind the final door is... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:And behind the final door is... (Score:2)
Re:And behind the final door is... (Score:2)
Or, for the purist: Bird, bird, giant eye, pyramid, bird. [snpp.com]
Re:And behind the final door is... (Score:2)
(Aw, c'mon. You just knew someone was gonna post it!)
Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Funny)
laundry chute? (Score:2)
Egyptian Engineers: (Score:5, Funny)
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Yo!"
Egyptian Engineer 1: "Check it out, I designed this really long, small passage that leads to a door, then it goes on, and leads to another door!"
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Why?"
Egyptian Engineer 1: "...dunno... thought it would be cool"
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Man, this is like your idea to draw aliens on hieroglyphs! Its not like anyone is ever going to
Re:Egyptian Engineers: (Score:2, Funny)
Engineer 1 must be an ancient ancestor of this dude [theonion.com].
Re:Egyptian Engineers: (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously, doesn't this make you wonder if satire existed in ancient times? We take everything as truth. What if the ancient egyptians were grand pranksters?
Re:Egyptian Engineers: (Score:2)
But seriously, (I read about it in Snow Crash first, and I later read into it more) A lot of the stuff written in pyramids are rubbish, its mostly pro-Egyptian propaganda: "We whooped his butt because we are cool like that!", where they might have had their butts whooped by their opponents. Apparently, some Archeaologists really don't take some Egyptian History too seriously unless collaborated by other sources.
Re:Egyptian Engineers: (Score:2)
Re:Egyptian Engineers: (Score:5, Funny)
Egyptian Engineer 2: "Why?"
Egyptian Engineer 1: "...dunno... thought it would be cool"
MY GOD! They've discovered the first case mod
User Friendly Scoops Slashdot! (Score:2)
Learning about ancient cultures (Score:5, Funny)
My special thoughts (Score:5, Funny)
How come they didn't take the camera rover out and put the one with the drill in there to drill a hole through the new found door?
I thought they had xrayed the door already, did they know that the new door was there?
How many doors and how many specials will it take to reach the secret chamber?
Who was that British-accent babe commentator? Did any other guys here want to drive their rover up her secret chamber?
Re:My special thoughts (Score:2, Funny)
If you get the National Geographic Channel, you can find here on National Geographic Today, everyday.
And...um... yes.
Two things: (Score:2, Insightful)
2) About the British-accent babe... ooooooh yeah.
Re:My special thoughts (Score:2)
I don't know who she was. But about two thirds of the way through I noticed that the producers had picked matching shirts for her and the other host. Odd.
Link For FOX's 18-35 Male Demographic (Score:5, Interesting)
HAHAHA (Score:3, Funny)
I was just there to get directions on how to get away from there.
Re:My special thoughts (Score:3, Funny)
They sonar mapped the first door. That didn't tell them anything but how thick the first door was.
I'd guess one more door and no more specials.
I kept expecting her to say "The rover will be at the door in a couple of minutes so while we wait I'll back up into a corner and bounce up and down".
Yeah, but... (Score:3, Funny)
ANOTHER DOOR! AND ANOTHER!! AND ANOTHER AND ANOTHER AND ANOTHER!!!!
I'm sure of it.
We've finally discovered the hole in the universe that will revolutionize our perception of reality: behind every opened door is another door!
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Then, hundreds of years from now, explorers will find it, and think ancient Egyptians had robot technology, completely skewing world history up.
Why open the over-seers coffin at the same time? (Score:3, Interesting)
This show bugged me because they dole out hard information so sparingly. Who cares whether Ms and Mr Brit announcer are short of breath. Why make us wait so long to see the CGI tour of the pyramids?
If this thing wasn't broadcast live, if they had cut back on the breathless chatter from the announcers, the informational part of this broadcast could have fit in half an hour.
Re:Why open the over-seers coffin at the same time (Score:2)
Watch TV much? Fox is the *master* of this technique! The whole point is to keep you excited so you see the commercials, period.
"Why make us wait so long to see the CGI tour of the pyramids?"
Do you really not get it? The advertisers believe that a significant number of people will buy a certain product (car?) after seeing it advertised on the show repeatedly. What bothers me is I think they're right.
Worst radio advert ever (Score:2)
I just heard a huge dramatic trailer for the show on my radio, which started just after the newsman announced "...huge disappointment, there was nothing to see."
Somewhere... (Score:4, Funny)
Somewhere from the great beyond some dead Pharoh is laughing his ass off.
Bugs Bunny (Score:5, Funny)
-Ed
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Graphic Design, Web Design, Role-Playing Games...all the good stuff
$250k for the robot? (Score:2)
(I'll stop myself from explaining my plan to use a webcam, my Pentium running Linux, 20 10-foot USB extension cords, and a wind-up NunZilla [stupid.com] to explore the corridor...)
Re:$250k for the robot? (Score:3, Informative)
From one of the articles:
And behind that door... (Score:2)
That extra door is just a plaster mockup the technicians from Cheyenne Mountain left behind.
Really... (Score:2)
Should keep them busy for a while, anyway.
2 hours of my life i'll never get back... (Score:2)
I figure sixth graders could have come up with everything they said. Sad really.
Two running themes on the night... (Score:5, Insightful)
And, look at the fingerprints... Surely Eygptians built this... My question is, wouldn't they have done their best to make sure flat surfaces were just that, flat, and free of fingerprints, because I would think fingerprints would make the thing look ugly.
Next point which really got to me was the fact that NO SLAVES were used and that it was a labor of love... That's such BULLSHIT. The evidence presented allows one to conclude several facts.
1) There was good food... Meats, fish, probably fruit. BUT was there enough for all? This I doubt. The better food was either a reward for the most productive teams OR for the skilled workers.
2) There were dorms... But only for about 2,000... This would mean an estimated 23,000 had to sleep elsewhere... Again leading to a conclusion of two or three possible workforces.
3) "Advanced" medical surgery was available... BUT for who? The skilled workers or the slave mules?
My conclusions...
1) There were slaves, used as mules to get the stones into near position.
2) Skilled workers positioned blocks accurately, these would receive the medical treatment and better accomodations.
3) Managers... All factories have them, why wouldn't the "advanced" Eygptians... Of course managers and overseers would be taken care of.
Better food was used for feeding the skilled and managers, and used as a reward for top performing slaves...
Re:Two running themes on the night... (Score:3, Funny)
Probably happened like this:
Scholars calculate the eclipse down to the minute and then.
"I am all mighty pharoah, build me a pyramid, or I will hide sun!"
"Yeah right!"
"Okay, you asked for it! *waves hands*"
"HOLY SHIT!! OH PLEASE MAKE IT COME BACK!! WE PROMISE TO BE GOOD!"
"Hmm... Well, I am a benevolent god, so, if you work real hard..."
"Oh we will!"
*waits for scholars to give signal* *pharoah waves hand*
"OH THANK YOU PHAROAH!!! BACK TO WORK!"
Re:Two running themes on the night... (Score:5, Insightful)
Here are more beer pots... They must of contained beer...
We know the Egyptians drank beer in preference to water as the fermentation process helped purify the water and reduced the risk of waterborne disease.
And, look at the fingerprints... Surely Eygptians built this... My question is, wouldn't they have done their best to make sure flat surfaces were just that, flat, and free of fingerprints, because I would think fingerprints would make the thing look ugly.
No, the interior of the Pyramid is really quite roughly hewn (albeit a lot better than most pyramids). Only the outer courses were finished to a fine standard after the blocks were lain in-situ. Constructing the big pyramids required blocks to be placed every minute or so, there was no time to do anything other than the roughest of shaping.
Next point which really got to me was the fact that NO SLAVES were used and that it was a labor of love... That's such BULLSHIT. The evidence presented allows one to conclude several facts.
Perhaps they didn't show all the evidence?
1) There was good food... Meats, fish, probably fruit. BUT was there enough for all? This I doubt. The better food was either a reward for the most productive teams OR for the skilled workers.
Sorry wrong. Not only was Egypt one of the traditional breadbaskets of the Near East (by Roman times it fed large parts of the Empire), but a good portion of the land was owned by Pharaoh (we have the estate records). This food was used to feed people on state projects.
Meat would have been rarer than in the modern diet, but there would have plenty of vegetarian foods, beer and bread to keep people going.
2) There were dorms... But only for about 2,000... This would mean an estimated 23,000 had to sleep elsewhere... Again leading to a conclusion of two or three possible workforces.
Sorry, wrong again. The Gizan necropolis has never been completely excavated. Large amounts of the site - including temples are now buried by modern developments, other parts of the site are buried under the waste from the quarrying in later times. There is plenty of room for more habitation. Your argument is like saying because we've only found a few houses in Yorks' Coppergate there can't have been a Viking city called Jorvik.
3) "Advanced" medical surgery was available... BUT for who? The skilled workers or the slave mules?
Egyptian medicine was the highest regarded in the Ancient World. Imhotep, architect of the first pyramid was also renowned for his medical learning and much later identified with Aescapulus by the Greeks.This was a state organisation, the Pharaoh would have been interested in a healthy workforce. There is no reason to suspect that health care was anything other than good.
The Pyramids are social engineering on an epic scale. For one third of the year the Nile would have flooded all of the arable land in the country. 90% of the workforce would have been unemployed and restive - so they were put to work on the Pyramids. In exchange, they got food and the country remained stable.
Unfortunately, the structures also sucked wealth out of the economy and helped bring about the disintegration of the Old Kingdom.
One problem we have looking back at Egypt is that we try to put our own processes into the heads of people who thought and worked in a very different way. We know that the Romans and the Greeks used slaves to construct their vast projects; we've read the Bible and seen how Exodus talks about Israelite slaves in Egypt and we colour our image with those thoughts.
The Egyptians did keep slaves, they weren't squeamish about the fact and their temples and tombs are decorated with images of slaves.
During the Old Kingdom Egypt was a very isolated country and did not have ready access to foreign populations for slaves. Slavery becomes much more common (although never as common as in Greece and Rome) in the Middle and New Kingdoms as Egypt broke out of its isolation and began to invade Nubia (to the South), Libya (to the West) and the modern Near East.
But we don't find any signs of slavery on the pyramid sites. We do find household junk, dockets, mentions of the origins of the workforce and so on. We know they were Egyptian workers.
My conclusions... 1) There were slaves, used as mules to get the stones into near position.
Unskilled labourers certainly with skilled team masters, but not slaves.
2) Skilled workers positioned blocks accurately, these would receive the medical treatment and better accomodations.
Modern reconstructions show that unskilled labourers working under supervision of skilled workers can perform the task to the required precision.
3) Managers... All factories have them, why wouldn't the "advanced" Eygptians... Of course managers and overseers would be taken care of. Better food was used for feeding the skilled and managers, and used as a reward for top performing slaves...
There were managers, we have their tombs. Of course they had better food (more meat, wine that sort of thing), but that doesn't mean the people working for them were slaves any more than the fact that the head of a company earns more than his staff, enjoys fine Bordeaux and has a house in the Hamptons.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Re:Two running themes on the night... (Score:5, Insightful)
What people also forget is that "slaves" in the ancient world were not the yoked, whipped, starved, and generally mistreated image that modern folk have got from movies. It was more like an indentured job where you could count on food, clothing, shelter, and sometimes a small wage, oft as not with a target date when the slave had the option of buying himself free (most didn't -- where would they go that paid as well?) In those days, the average freeman was doing well to have work that paid in sufficient food and housing, never mind money; about all he had over the average slave was social status, and sometimes not even that.
And there wasn't a big police force available to catch runaways -- so if you mistreated your slaves, they were liable to just up and leave and there was nothing the owner could do to stop them. I recall reading of an incident where some Roman landowner did so (mistreating slaves was a serious criminal offense under Roman law), and the entire slave workforce simply picked up their tools and left.
In a talk back in 1983, C.J. Cherryh (who used to be a history teacher) pointed out that furthermore, slave labour (what moderns think of as slaves, that is) is inefficient for big projects like the pyramids, where you need a stable workforce who have some clue what they're doing. OTOH, for several months of the year (during the entire flood season), the Pharoah had a few million idle farmworkers with nothing better to do than drink beer and cause trouble -- the sensible thing to do was put them to work on big public projects where they got paid and stayed out of trouble. The bigger the project, the more idle farmers were kept busy, and the fewer social problems as a result. Pharoah wasn't stupid.
C.J. also spoke of HOW the big stone blocks were moved. Nile River clay is so slick that when it's wet, you almost can't stand up on it. C.J. decided to try a little experiment with her 8th grade class. She didn't have stone blocks and Nile clay available, but did have wet grass and a two-ton metal construction weight. She harnessed her 8th graders to this two-ton block and -- well, the moment they got it moving, it damnear ran them over, it was that easy to move on mere wet grass. So the boys decided to ride on the block while 8 girls pulled. It still all but ran away with them, and in their haste to avoid being squished, they managed to drop it into a ditch. They'll never get it out of there, right?? Ha! The kids heaved on the ropes and it came flying up out of the ditch, over their heads and landed somewhere beyond 'em. Eeep!!
C.J. concluded that with Nile clay to provide slipperyness, the major problem was not getting the massive stone blocks moving, nor hauling them up the ramps, but rather keeping them from running away under their own power!!
Re:Two running themes on the night... [OT] (Score:2, Insightful)
The Egyptians Had It Right (Score:3, Funny)
Silly/stupid question (Score:2)
And behind the second door (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And behind the second door (Score:2)
The writing on the wall... (Score:5, Funny)
Figures.. (Score:3, Funny)
Now we'll have to wait a year for the sequel: Door: The Return.
Zahi Hawass vs. Reporter in Tomb (Score:2)
Who do you think's in there? (Score:2)
If they keep going... (Score:2)
I suspect that these shafts were so they could measure how far from the center the "queens" chamber was. They also may have had been useful for venting the CO from the lights they used.
I suspect that the larger pyramids were built in such a way that there would always by a pyramid when the king kicked the bucket. This would me adding layers over the existing one. If you start with a small one, the lowerest chamber would have be under part of the oldest structure in the early days. Latter the "queens" chamber was would have been the mid point and later the "kings" chamber would have been center point as more layers were put on the outside. If you go with that theory and figure in the likely times of death of a king vs relative power of the king and his ability to build large projects there is a strong correlation.
One theory that keeps showing up is the match to Orions belt of the tops of the pyramids. Why look for a hard solution when the SW corners all line up quite nicely. It would take some very careful analysis to determine if the they were used as
exhaust vents and the current experiments may ruin any chances for that work.
Many people make lots of assumptions about the pyramids from the three big ones at Giza. There are at least 90 others and many of them have many things in common but conflict with many of the new age concepts.
Re:If they keep going... (Score:3, Informative)
Why would they need to do that? The Queen's chamber is built high in the body of the pyramid. It wasn't carved into the pyramid later. The architects could always measure its corners with reference to the corners of the pyramid itself.
I suspect that the larger pyramids were built in such a way that there would always by a pyramid when the king kicked the bucket. This would me adding layers over the existing one. If you start with a small one, the lowerest chamber would have be under part of the oldest structure in the early days. Latter the "queens" chamber was would have been the mid point and later the "kings" chamber would have been center point as more layers were put on the outside. If you go with that theory and figure in the likely times of death of a king vs relative power of the king and his ability to build large projects there is a strong correlation.
Sorry that doesn't work either. The Great Pyramid is clearly atypical in having three chambers. Most pyramids seem to have had one or two at most.
Almost all construction of the pyramid's interior would have been completed in the open air before succeeding layers were put into position. There is almost no decoration in any 3rd or 4th pyramids (a factor which has made their attribution very difficult).
The 5th and 6th Dynasty pyramids are much more richly decorated with the so-called Pyramid Texts; a set of magic spells intended to whisk Pharaoh to the afterlife.
Besides, the Great Pyramid is the only one with such shafts. Again it is fascinatingly atypical.
The first step pyramids grow outwards from a central core. Layers of core stone are laid in tilting rows at 90 degrees to the facets of the steps. The casing was then applied around the outside of the rough inner core.
However, the size of the pyramid was almost always determined in advance so as to allow the completion of the ancillary temples and service buildings which hunker up to the side of the pyramid. These are substantial constructions in their own right - the enclosure for the Step Pyramid is no less than 15 hectares of buildings and courtyards.
Geometrically true pyramids did not grow in accretion layers. Their inner cores are almost always very roughly cut local stone laid in horizontal layers. Only the casings were laid with any precision. (By later times the core was built of mud brick or even rubble with the casing holding the whole lot together.
Two pyramids come close to the method you are talking about. There is the first pyramid of all, the Step Pyramid of Zoser at Saqqara, which went through several phases of development, starting off as a flat bechlike structure known as a mastaba. This was gradually extended, then converted to a step pyramid and finally to the six step pyramid we see today. In each case the structure was more or less complete before the additions were made. It does seem that the Egyptians were really groping in the dark when they worked on Zoser's pyramid.
The second, which is much more interesting is the Pyramid at Meidum. We believe this was started by the Pharaoh Huni of which we know very little indeed and rose originally as a seven step pyramid which was more or less completely cased. It is possible that Huni was buried in the pyramid, but at some later date, probably during the reign of Snofru, the pyramid was dramatically altered. The gaps between the steps were filled with relatively loose stones and a pyramidal casing placed around the structure. This collapsed in much later times leaving the pyramid as a complete ruin.
We have several abandoned pyramids in various states of construction that show how they were designed. The most famous is the Blind Pyramid at Saqqara, ascribed to Sekhemkhet, successor to Zoser. The structure was never finished and never assumed a pyramidal form. It was used however, a sarcophagus, sealed, was found when the pyramid was excaveated. But it was empty... No one knows why the pyramid was raised or if it ever held more than one burial. Certainly other Pharaohs, Snofru and Amenemhet III had more than one.
Likewise the smallest of the three great pyramids, that of Menkaure is clearly unfinished. The inner core was completed from local stone, and all of the casing stones were put into place - the top being Tura limestone (a lovely creamy white fine limestone from the East bank of the Nile), the lower stones being Aswan red granite. But the casing was not cut to its final shape, leaving the bottom very rough.
Best wishes,
Mike.
No wheels?! (Score:2)
Did anyone notice... (Score:2)
In Between (Score:2)
-- J. Morrison
What's behind the door that Ito-san is next to? (Score:4, Funny)
Kuni : Naaaaatthing! Absolutely naaaaaaathing! stoooooooopad !!!! You're so stoooooopad!!!!!
(/Weird Al UHF reference)
A Pathetic Excuse for Science (Score:5, Interesting)
The entire show consisted of outright lies and wild speculation presented as fact. For example, the statement that 'the people who lived here could not have been slaves because they were 50% male rather than a majority.' Huh? How does that make the slightest bit of sense? The Egyptians took slaves of any gender. I do not happen to think that most of the pyramid labor was slave, but that was hardly a supporting arguement.
The director of anitquities made quite a show of concern for good science and taking proper care of the sites explored. But in the end, he essentially attacked that tomb with a chisel and a crowbar for no apparant reason. All he had to do was place a hydraulic jack under each corner and lift. But he damaged the sarcophagus to look like Indiana Jones and was shocked to find... a skeleton! Inside a grave- imagine! He pretended to read a 'curse' on the side of a tomb, despite the fact that he was tracing the characters in the wrong direction (across 2 seperate lines) and the fact that no inscription resembling a curse has ever been found on an Egyptian tomb. Ever. It was a myth invented before the Rosetta stone was found.
It would have been nice if they had mentioned the fact that not a single set of human remains has ever been found in an Egyptian pyramid. The theory that these were built as literal tombs is yet unproven.
Perhaps they might have incorporated the opinions of geologists, climatologists and other actual scientists in the course of this 'documentary.' But that surely would have ruffled the feathers of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, which apparantly exists for the purpose of justifying conclusions that were reached 100 years ago by untrained, British treasure seekers.
I also took issue with the computerized recreations of the building of the pyramids. National Geographic completely ignored the fact that 4,000 years ago that area was a very temperate climate. No desert, no sand. A lush, green paradise that looked nothing like it does today. This fact was completely ignored throughout all the reenactments- even those that were clearly staged in the US with caucasian actors. Why go to all that trouble of staging a desert unless you really just don't know a damn thing about ancient Egypt?
The truely embarrasing element of all this is that National Geographic was responsible. I expect better from them. This wasn't even pop science- just a big, fake exercise in tomb raiding and lies for the entertainment value. Cancel my membership, please.
Re:A Pathetic Excuse for Science (Score:5, Interesting)
As much as some of the pyramidiots are way out there. Many of them seem to raise some very legitimate and troubling questions about Egyptology. They in fact made me just interested enough to start reading academic texts about Egyptology and it does appear that some of the so called discoveries that have been found throughout the exploration of the pyramids have been fake. The "gang" graffiti of heiroglyphics that Hawass showed is in fact the only writing found in the pyramids. And it is possible that it was done by Egyptologist that got to that level to justify the expense of his expedition.
I still find many of the current arguments about the construction of the pyramids to be unconvincing. At a minimum the timing still seems wrong. The other pyramids in the country seem to be proof. They have the step pyramids and then they have the pyramids at Dashour. The strange upsurge of amazingly well architected and built pyramids in the middle of a dynasty only to relapse into horrible pyramid building less then a few centuries later. And most of all without any evidence of civil unrest, war, or other catastrophe to explain the sudden loss of technology.
So as much as the Pyramidiots are out there it would be interesting to see the Egyptologists take them seriously just long enough to convinvingly refute (or attempt to) their claims. It would certainly go a long way to discredit them. Because it seems that the Pyramidiots have managed to make some decent discoveries themselves, or at least ask questions that caused the exploration of the new ideas.
Www.cheops.org (Score:2, Informative)
We may have discovered.. (Score:3, Funny)
Remember: don't open that last door before the 24th.
Alex
Where was Bill Pullman? (Score:2)
Thanks for the spoiler (Score:2)
Now I guess there won't be a lot of people watching the show.
I like MSNBC's current vote (Score:2)
- They're more significant than I expected.
- They're a disappointment.
- They're about what I expected.
- None of the above.
Hmm... I wonder who would vote for #1 there.
And of course the poll sucks since it's missing vital choices:
- Since CowboyNeal already got the loot, who cares?
- I'm blind and deaf, you insensitive clod.
Well, thank you for the spoilers! :P (Score:2)
But we all know that the holy grail of archealogy is to find somthing ancient that changes the way we look at the world
Pyramid Undergoes Colonoscopy - on Live TV (Score:4, Funny)
I learned 5 new things last night... (Score:4, Insightful)
According to Zahi, I learned a few new things:
1. Not a single slave helped build the pyramids.
2. Using a crowbar to chip into a 4000 year old sarcophogas is just fine, rather than using more delicate means (did you see the huge chunk of the lid flake off as he got a little too excited?).
3. Zahi thinks the rest of the world with theories opposed to his "kind and loving egyptians built the pyramids" are idiots because of a thumbprint on the sarcophogas lid. (!?)
4. Zahi's bone specialist confirms: no slaves here, we have 50% men and 50% women in our findings (as if slavery was something only men had to endure).
5. Robots aren't as snazzy as portrayed in the movies. Most movie robots would have been at least able to MacGuyver their way through the second door.
proof of time travel (Score:4, Funny)
Hey. I'll give you a big pile of gold if you'll make a room that's impossible to get into in this pyramid. Say, up a narrow shaft, behind a couple doors. And throw in a trap that will crush a small robot.
Robot?
It's like a cat, but not holy.
Oh. Ok. Sure. Why not?
Due to lack of funding.. (Score:4, Funny)
There is a door to the east (Score:4, Funny)
You open this door, and there is a long passageway to another door. A NASTY DWARF THROWS AN AXE AT YOU!
> OPEN DOOR
You open the door, and there is a black sceptre and a bird cage on the floor. "XYZZY" is written on the door.
> XYZZY
You are in a well house.....
Re:Enter from the outside... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me get this straight. You want to explore one of the wonders of the world, by cutting fucking great holes in it?! Please tell me you're not a brain surgeon.
Re:Enter from the outside... (Score:2)
Re:Enter from the outside... (Score:3, Interesting)
A pyramid consists of huge blocks with cracks and small amount of air between the blocks. Although the pyramids are very well engineered, there will always be small amount of air between two piees of stone. This renders sonar useless below the first layer of stone.
One can measure the depth of the first stone layer with soner (assuming that the outer stones do not have too many cracks), but beyond that, no information wuld be obtained.
Yours Yazeran
Plan: to go to Mars one day with a hammer
Re:Enter from the outside... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, uh, what a great idea... (Score:2)
My favorite part . . . (Score:5, Funny)
... and I only watched the last 5 minutes or so . . .
Robot proceeds forward through hole in door . . .
Excited Host Lady: Describe what's happening now for us!
Expert: The robot is proceeding forward through the hole in the door.
Excited Host Lady: Oooooo! Those look like hieroglyphics! Writing on the wall!
Expert: Cracks. Those are cracks.
Re:My favorite part . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Expert: I hope this will shut the mouths of all thoses idiots who say this place wasn't built by Egyptians.
Re:My favorite part . . . (Score:2, Funny)
Re:My favorite part . . . (Score:2, Funny)
Excited Host Lady: Oh my gosh, this is the first live discovery of space...
Sadly, I'm not not making this up That really was a pathetic show.
Re:My favorite part . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: Very Entertaining Show (Score:2, Funny)
> (After we see it's just another wall). "This is a very important discovery, and I am very pleased with what we found".
I bet Siggy Freud would have enjoyed it:
Re:ok (Score:2)
Re:ok (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ok (Score:5, Informative)
Short answer - RTFA!
Did you even see the show? The "door" is in an 8"x8" square shaft that entends up at about a 45 degree angle. I think the shaft was 200 ft long.
Over months, they built a special robot that chould get to the door, and it tried to move it. They used some kind of sonar to determine that the door was only 3" thick, so they tested out a device to drill a 3" hole in it, so they could insert a small camera and light.
So instead of thinking that you are so clever, maybe you should have watched the show, or at least read the article before going off on some pseudo tirade.
Re:ok (Score:2)
Besides, as Indiana Jones taught us, 8"x8" holes in the wall are normally filled with bugs. And who wants to stick their arms into holes filled with bugs.
Re:ok (Score:5, Funny)
"By breaking this seal you agree to the terms of the license contained herein.
Re:Poll (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Poll (Score:2, Funny)
You forgot (Score:2)
7)A tiger
It was live, but it was scripted (Score:2)
Re:Hope it's something cool (Score:2, Interesting)
I say that, but when they show what's behind door #2, I'll probably watch again...
Re:hmmm... (Score:2)
a) I don't think anyone thinks the pyramids predated the egyptians (or at least people living in egypt). I've never even read about this hypothesis - ther than from "visiting martian" stories that I can't find any corroborative evidence of.
b) Hardly anyone believes the pyramids were built by slaves anymore. All indications are that the pyramids were built as a team sport by what were essentially an zealous, overfed, understimulated, well-populated civilization that had all of thier resources magically delivered to them every spring.
c) There are glyphs of how they built them. There are also glyphs left behind by the gangs, or teams that competed during construction. What is not documented is the specific "secret sauce" those teams used against one another. And why? Probably because it was a lot tougher to get an IP patent back then. Carving your secret into a wall is probably a bad way to conceal it.
Re: (Score:2)