Robot To Explore Mysterious Pyramid Passage 68
a_timid_mouse writes "The National Geographic Society, using the same kind of robot used to search for survivors in the ruins of the World Trade Center, is trying to solve a mystery that lies deep in the bowels of the 4,500-year-old Great Pyramid of Giza. Up a tiny square tunnel is a stone hatch with copper handles that was discovered in 1872. No one knows the purpose of the shaft, and no one knows what lies behind the hatch. Enter the Pyramid Rover."
simple, man (Score:2)
Re:simple, man (Score:1)
Just like Al Capone's vault (Score:2, Funny)
Bevare... (Score:2, Funny)
Robot to insert fiberoptic camera to find... (Score:3, Funny)
-Adam
Re:Robot to insert fiberoptic camera to find... (Score:2)
Extraordinary? (Score:1)
"It has to be an extraordinary engineering feat to go up a 40-degree, 200-foot shaft"
Almost as extraordinary as a 4000+ year old civilization creating such a passage.
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:2)
DUH
The pyramids were created by an alien civilization as a star gate. They're returning in 2038 to enslave us.
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:1, Funny)
Good, then we won't have to worry about all the UNIX systems that will run out of space for the date, right?
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:2)
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:1)
The pyramid itself isn't even that imponderable. It is, after all, just a really big stack of rocks. Getting all of the stone blocks and moving them into position was a tremendous amount of work, but it's not some inconceivable feat. It just requires a huge amount of labor- which the records suggest the Egyptians had access to. The pyramids represent a tremendous organizational accomplishment- getting all of those workers in one place and paying and feeding them all was incredible- but are not the unbelievable engineering challenge that they're made out to be.
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:2)
The best proof that the pyramids aren't the product of some strange advanced alien or Atlanean technology is that they are in fact pyramids. Genuinely advanced tech can construct buildings of that size using many other designs. The primitive tech of the ancient world limited them to the basic rockpile shape; they simply didn't have building materials that could support anything else. This is the real reason for the ubiquitousness of the pyramid, from the Maya back through the ziggurats of Mesopotamia, not that they were based on any mystical prototype.
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:1)
Another reason to build a pyramid shape is that it is likely to last longer.
(Most pyramids were built as tombs, and were meant to last forever.)
If you look at non-pyramidal above-ground ancient buildings, they have all suffered damage from the elements, mostly to their roofs.
After all, stone lasts a long time, but it's not the best material to use for a lintel or beam.
In contrast, most of the damage suffered by pyramids was due to vandalism (at least, in Egypt; the meso-American pyramids were also damaged by the encroaching jungle, but still fared better than other above-ground buildings (except maybe the plazas, but those aren't really buildings)).
Are there materials available today that last as long as stone in a desert or desert-like environment?
I don't know of any.
(Perhaps some forms of concrete.)
If I were designing a structure today that I wanted to survive for as long as possible with a minimum of maintenance in a desert-like environment, I'd make it out of stone, and make it pyramid-shaped.
(Disclaimer: IANAA (I am not an architect).)
Not that I believe in any of that "Chariots of the Gods" mumbo-jumbo.
I just don't think that you can use the material and architectural design of the pyramids as an argument against it.
A far more compelling argument is that no remnants of more "modern-style" architecture exist from that time, nor do any depictions of such architecture exist in the various wall decorations, sculpture, etc., from that period.
To get back on topic, how do they know that there's anything at all behind the "hatch"?
Maybe its not a hatch at all.
It could be something just set in the wall, and the handles could have been used for tying ropes to for some reason.
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:2)
That doesn't mean that a pyramid will last a long time if it's not built out of the right materials. There are numerous pyramids between Giza and Saqqara, but not all of them are still pyramid shaped. Towards the end of the Old Kindom, pyramids became decidedly low-buget affairs, constructed out of unbaked mud brick with limestone casings. Once the casing stones were removed for building material by later generations, the things just started to erode away. The pyramids of Giza also had their casings removed -- only the Second Pyramid preserves a few courses near the top -- but since their cores are stone they endured anyway.
In any event, I doubt longevity was a consideration, at least as far as the shape was concerned. The oldest pyramid was just a century or so older than the Great Pyramid, so they really had no data to go on in that regard. There were plenty of other monuments in Egypt at least as old as the Stepped Pyramid at the time, many older, and probably in just as good a condition.
It's not just that there are no other buildings of the ancient world comparable in height to the Pyramids that have survived; it's that there are no buildings in the ancient world comparable in height at all, not even in ruined condition. Every monument of significant height in the ancient world is roughly pyramid shaped, even when they weren't "houses of eternity", like ziggurats or Mesoamerican pyramids. That strongly suggests they knew of no other way to build something that tall except by shaping it like a pile of rocks. (I said "size" in my earlier post when "height" would have been better. That's a hazard for me when posting to /. from work; I generally don't have the time to phrase it as clearly as possible. I'm a sloppy writer by habit, and I make lots of mistakes in first drafts.)
You're right: it's perfectly possible that there will be nothing behind this stone. But it's more fun to speculate about there being something rather than nothing. We'll know in a few days either way.
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:1)
Re:Extraordinary? (Score:2)
The architectural history of this structure has been fairly well established. It was begun as a standard mastaba, which was extended in two or three stages. Then, having apparently reached the limit of how grandiose a mastaba could be, three more mastabas were stacked on top of it, forming a 4-stepped pyramid. As Djoser was not yet dead, it was then expanded once again into the six-stepped form it still retains. It seems to me that the original mastaba was expanded until it was as grandiose as that particular form could have achieved with the building materials available -- it's built from stone cut into small, brick-sized blocks -- and that the piling up of successive mastabas may have been the only form that occurred to the architect to make it even more grandiose.
Already tried? (Score:1)
They sent a (very similar) robot up the passage, got to the door, but somehow got stuck. IIRC, the robot couldn't get over some sort of obstacle, but could still see the door at the end. They ended with a problem: how did two iron spikes end up locking the door, so far inside such a small tunnel.
What's different and new this time around?
Re:Already tried? (Score:4, Interesting)
2 - copper, not iron
3 - handles (loop), not spikes
4 - fibre optic camera is small enough to fit in/through the cracks, maybe reach the other side?
5 - there is another sensor for seeing 'thru' the stone that is blocking the pathway, range is 3 ft thru concrete, maybe 2 or 3 times that through stone of the pyramid structure.
6 - the stone is of the nice variety only found in the chambers of the interior of the pyramid
Unanswered questions lead to more investigation.
Re:Already tried? (Score:5, Informative)
The shafts themselves were discover in 1840 or something..
The thing you saw was Rudolph Gattenbrink about 1992?
He was commissioned to add ventilation fans to the shafts that actuall reach the outside surface. The tourists created too much humidity inside the pyramid and were causing damage.
Of the 4 shafts, only two make it out.
Now, Rudolph sent his robot up the other 2 shafts to see if they reach the surface. One of them bent in such a strange way, they couldnt get past one of the bends. One of them ended at this mysterious door that had polished stone leading up to it... (Polished stone was reserved for important areas of the pyramid.) The door also had some metal like handles. (Wasnt this stone age construction?)
His discovery of that door is what you saw on television.
So the question has been for 10 years, Whats behind the freaking door!
Rudolph has offerred many times to go back to the pyramid with his robot. But due to political issues, Egypt doesnt want him to work on that site. They dont like how he documented and revealed his first find.. Egyptology is more politics than science... Alot of people think that Rudolph is being robbed of credit. I noticed the CNN article mis-credits the discovery of the door.... Poor Rudolph and these pyramid games.
Sooooo... The Egyptian authorities have allowed National Geographic to build its own robot. Thats what this is. They are going to try and determine whats behind the damn door.. Im sure they have already looked. In fact many believe there is a room behind the door that can be reached through a different passage that hasnt been revealed to the public. There have been reports of secret drilling in the pyramid in 1998? time frame. (They closed the pyramid to allow "renovations!" hahah!)
There have been rumours that an underground system of passages connect the pyramids with each other.. There have been rumours that a black dog/man (anubis?) statue is behind the door. There have been rumours and rumours and rumours. I guess this presentation on monday will actually probably only create more rumours. If its empty, did they remove stuff befhore hand. If there is something there, who knows what will happen.
Re:Already tried? (Score:2)
Another question is: If the shaft is so darn narrow we need a state-of-the-art robot to explore it, how did they build the freakin door in the first place?
Re:Already tried? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Already tried? (Score:4, Insightful)
Remember the pyramids are built up out of seperate blocks. They probably cust the shafts out out of the blocks as they were being laid. Cut the bottom part of the shaft out of one block, cut the upper part out of another block, then set it on top of the lower block, continue until the shaft reaches it's destination. As for the door, well you just set in place at the top of the shaft, then build up the pyramid around it.
For everything there is is usually a hard a way and a n easy to do it. The trick is finding the easy way.
Re:Already tried? (Score:1)
Best site for info on this... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.cheops.org/
It is a site constructed by Rudolph Gattenbrink and contains all of his findings in a very public way... AutoCAD drawings of how each block was cut to form the shaft, etc...
Zahi Hawass (The director of the Giza site) loves to take credit for anything and everything.. I true ego-maniac... I would love to see Rudolph Gattenbrink get the credit he deserves...
There is a petition located at:
http://www.dailygrail.com/petition/
Upuaut (Score:2)
The 'thing' certainly was Upuaut (the name of the robot) and here's [cheops.org] the official website of Gantenbrink and his robot.
They never let... (Score:1)
NOT "stone-age". (Score:1)
Re:NOT "stone-age". (Score:2)
Especially when the last agricultural use of flint that I know of was on Cyprus where threshing sled blades of flint were being made up into the 1950s. The tractor powered thresher finally crowded out animal traction threshing sledges, within our, well my, lifetime.
Re:Already tried? (Score:1)
His prediction is at:
http://www.gizapower.com/articles/door.html
Everyone has a theory... Can't wait till tonight..
organic solution (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:organic solution (Score:2)
Actually it would probably be the best solution. Train a lab maze rat to climp up a similar shaft in a lab, and strap leightweight scientific equipment on his back.
Re:organic solution (Score:2)
They considered building a robot to do it, but the ferret was cheaper, and the scientists grew very fond of it, eventually deciding it needed a mate.
Re:organic solution (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
Re:this was tried (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:this was tried (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you think these pyramids represent Egypts History, or civilizations history?
I realize they are located inside the border of the current government recognized as "Egypt".
But, I think these monuments represent something that is important to humanity, and personaly, I dont trust any governments (American or Egyptian).
So the politics play on, and I keep wondering about the conspiracy theories.
If they were in US (Score:1, Offtopic)
But since it isn't in the US, I guess the Egyptian government is well within their rights to control something that was built before the current incarnation of Egypt was even thought of.
You see, if you aren't American, you can't make a mistake. I just realized this, and boy do I feel bad about being American.
I am sorry that everyone speaks English.
I am sorry that France and other countries have to make laws to keep their language alive. This is obviously as a result of some covert American plot to pollute the world with our language. The French saw fit to give over control of everything to the Germans upon the asking, but somehow we have sullied their language, how dare we.
I am sorry that we came over to Europe in the early 20th century, and again in the 40's. I know we should have just left Stalin kill another 20 million Christians, and Hitler kill another 6 million Jews. We were insensitive, and imperialistic.
I am sorry that we tried to force capitalism on the North Koreans in order to protect our oil interests. Same with all the Vietnamese. These people wanted, and have thrived under the communism they recieved. We were rude, brutish, and totally out of line in both of these actions.
I am sorry that we stopped a thug and a thief from stealing millions of dollars worth of property, and a chance to control a significant portion of the worlds oil supply. This was selfish, and imperialistic. I am sorry that we allowed our women service people to remain uncovered, offending all the right thinking people we just saved, because our women have the same rights as the men.
I am sorry that we stopped a racist, religious zealot from trying to cleanse his country of other races. They clearly didn't belong there, since an arbitrary border said they didn't belong in the same place they had for severl centuries. I am sorry that we stopped his troops from systematically raping all the females of these other races as their troops moved from town to town. Clearly these people deserved to be raped and killed and we were insensitive and arrogant to impose our ideas on that eastern european community.
And most recently I am sorry that we feel the need to try to dictate how another country can defend its borders. We have no reason to believe a man that has already gased citizens of his own country to test chemical weapons would release a weapon of mass destruction on the world. How dare we get that attitude.
Yeah, we are just a bunch of arrogant, classless hillbillies over here that don't have the common sense to commit suicide because we are so beneath the rest of the world.
I am sorry that the rest of the world has to deal with us Americans. If only we had never been organized as a country.
Re:If they were in US (Score:1)
Re:this was tried (Score:2)
The Arabs never built a pyramid. Nor did they ever build up a great corpus of learning. But, clever as they are, they've taken credit for the last half-millenium. That proves nothing regarding the truth of the matter.
Re:this was tried (Score:1)
On that note, does anyone have any information about this [cnn.com]?
Going to be on TV! (Score:3, Informative)
According to the web site [nationalgeographic.com], it's going to be on TV 9/16, 8pm (eastern/pacific) on Fox. Pretty cool...
Re:Going to be on TV! (Score:2, Funny)
They'll finally find . . . (Score:1)
Tonight On Battlebots (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Tonight On Battlebots (Score:1)
Where's Thinkgeek when you need them? (Score:2)
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/fun-stuff/5776.s
(Mini Rover)
Previous attempts... (Score:3, Funny)
shaft ended in disappointment when it was discover
that Lara Croft's cross-section was too large to
permit her entry into the shaft.
It's part of the plumbing! (Score:2)
Kunkel expounds his astonishing theories. [thepump.org]
Give this guy some money, please, so we can either be amazed or have a jolly good laugh at his expense.
Re:It's part of the plumbing! (Score:1)
I've already had a jolly good laugh at his expense. I don't knot if he actually wrote the text of the web site, but if he did, I expect he will be taken away in a straitjacket anytime now.
The hackneyed writing, the non-stop overuse of repetition to repeat himself, I reiterate, the nonstop overuse of repetition to repeat himself, the hyperole of it all!!!!!!!, the abisthmul spealing, the poor: punctuation, the of out order logical insertion of sentences all serve to indicate that the person who wrote the text for the web site is not only no scholar, s/he has no concept whatsoever of either scholarship or the written English language. If this is the best Kunkel can do for disciples, I cannot imagine anyone taking him seriously.
If the foregoing alone is not enough, at every point where a new "fact" is brought up that the reader might question, we are simply told that it is explained in the book. Of course, we are also given a link to buy the book. There is a commercial for the book on nearly every page, and several have two. Clearly, the purpose of this site is not to further scholarship or to edumacate anyone, but just to sell the book.
Based on what I have read at their web site - which I'm sure was also constructed with the assistance of locks, big check valves, and a pyramid-shaped pump - I find the theory totally implausible. No serious scholar, whether professional or amateur, would tolerate such a badly written site. By the Pharoah's Pump Foundation's own description of its work, this sounds like the biggest crackpot theory since Chariots of the Gods.
not 1872! 1993 (Score:4, Interesting)
In 1992-3, a team using a small robot with a video camera revealed a strange stone slab, which blocks the 40-degree, 200-foot southern lower shaft. This stone has 2 copper fittings. Rudolf Gantenbrink, the head of the research project narrates: The face of the inspector sitting next to me at the monitor has become chalk white. He draws my attention to two round, white marks on the copper fittings. "These are seals, these are seals!" he exclaims, visibly shaken.. Read this totally fascinating story here [cheops.org]. The entire UPUAUT project scientific report page is available here [cheops.org] too.
Re:not 1872! 1993 (Score:1)
You don't seriously think they haven't looked already, do you?
What they'll find (Score:2)
Or maybe it's the control room to the alien launch facility....
fnar, fnar (Score:1)
you guys have really got to get a thesaurus
or i gotta get a better sense of humour.
Dredge, redundancy, TLC (Score:1)
I mean, egyptian architecture is neat and all, but I don't think they had the tools and knowledge to properly build these things to 1/16th-of-an-inch precision.
It's over, and... (Score:1)
My prediction was that they would find, gasp, human remains.
They opened the sealed Sarcophagus, and guess what they found? The bones of a human being. Still, a significant find, compared to the next item.
Item 2: The Blocked Shaft
My prediction was, uh, more shaft, debris, or a wall.
They drilled a hole through the "door" (it was less than 4 inches thick) and poked a camera/light source through the hole. What did they find? A short space, and then, a wall (contrary to Dr. Hawass' statement that it was "another door!").
Where're the alien artifacts? The treasure? The buried long-lost knowledge of the lost civilization?
While it was interesting, it would have been 1000% better if the mummy would've sucked the juices out of the co-hosts and just let Dr. Hawass narrate the show; even if he is a putz, he's vastly more interesting and entertaining than they could ever hope to be. I mean, come on, this is National Geographic we are talking about here, not RealTV.
All in all, I give it a 5/10, if only to see Dr. Hawass getting heart palpitations from running full tilt from the Great Pyramid to the Pyramid City Administrator's tomb and back again to keep on Fox's "Live" schedule.
Hype or Tripe? (Score:1)
Is it just me or was that National Geographic live broadcast about the pyramid chamber discovery a total waste of time and money? It's nice to have a show about the pyramids and the information contained within the show was fantastic, but they promoted it as being a great discovery show to try and lure a larger audience. They discovered pretty much nothing (for TV standards (skeleton & more passage)).
At one point I exclaimed to my wife that Osama Bin Laden was going to jump out at the end of the secret passage, but no such luck. The punch line is that at the end of the show, there was just another door, and they still hailed it as a great discovery.
The robot was COOL so I guess it wasn't a total waste of my time... but talk about lame endings.