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Science

Gaming Zone? 203

Posted by michael from the not-talking-about-msn dept.
texchanchan writes "The BBC reports on a study by Dr. Costas Karageorghis, Brunel University (London): 'Recent research has suggested that it could be possible for a person immersed in a computer game to achieve the same level of meditative concentration' usually found in religious contemplatives and athletes in 'The Zone.' The article also quotes Dr. Karageorghis as saying 'It's a deeply pleasurable experience and it's something that's not very often experienced by people, rather it's something that often represents people's peak experiences in a particular area.'"
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Gaming Zone? More

Gaming Zone?

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  • Don't drugs also let you achieve these higher states? How about a long, hardcore programming session?

    • Re:Drugs (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:28PM (#3967887) Homepage Journal
      Some stimulant drugs (coke, meth) do seem to have a very similar though not identical effect, which is a big part of the reason people take them -- all the fun, no effort.

      But yes, I strongly suspect that just about any activity you enjoy, practice a lot, and are good at can put you "in the zone." I've experienced it while running, while coding, while writing, while having sex (okay, lately I haven't been practicing that last as much as I'd like, though things do show signs of turning around soon ... ;) Hell, I used to sometimes get that same feeling back when I was an ER medic -- a busy night shift in the ER is no one's idea of fun, but there's a definite flow to it, a rhythm, and when you really get into it, when you're triaging mass casualty victims or running a code and everything is going just right, it's a powerful experience.

      • Re:Drugs (Score:3, Funny)

        by skidgetron ( 593733 )
        Wow, you seem to reach the so called "zone" a lot there dude. Are you sure that you're reaching this "zone", or just feeling really good. "hey I was just walking down the street, and it put me in the zone!" "funny you should say that, while getting my haircut, I too was in the zone!" *high fives*
        • :)

          It really is a matter of practice. Running -- I've been running three days a week for about ten years now, I know my own physiological and psychological responses to the exercise very well, and that means I can get the "runner's high" very quickly and keep it going throughout the run. On the other hand, the sense of everything flowing just right in the ER was something I experienced maybe once or twice a year, because the kind of shifts required to get that feeling didn't happen very often. Which is a good thing.
          • Yeah, it'd suck if things in the ER went really well more than a couple of times a year. Who wants a smooth-running healthcare operation, anyway? I'd much rather have people working in the ER who feel high than have efficient, accurate procedures occuring quickly. :)
            • What I meant was ... that "in the zone" feeling generally only occurs in medicine when you're overwhelmed with critical patients, and not always even then. So it's a good thing when circumstances are such that you don't feel that way.
      • Some stimulant drugs (coke, meth) do seem to have a very similar though not identical effect,

        Dude, It's not working! - I've chugged 2 leters of Coke and my entire body is conved in Mentholatum Deep Heating rub. The burning sensation in my genetals has stopped after the initial pain, and I've been peeing like a horse for the last hour. I've gotten nowhere near the 'Zone' but my dog is sniffing my exposed body and that feels nice...

    • Re:Drugs (Score:1)

      by _J_ ( 30559 )
      Interesting that you say this.

      I've often gone into "The Zone" when programming. I feel like I become god-like in my powers and that there's nothing I can't do. It's quite an experience. It seem to require lots of current knowledge of the language, target app, specifice tools, etcetera.

      And getting into the Zone while programming tends to be more productive that getting into the zone while playing a video game.:)

      J:)
      • I've often gone into "The Zone" when programming.

        Here's how the network administrator gets into the zone:

        I visit windowsupdate and download all the latest security patches, and then, I read the mega-combined EULA which is actually twenty separate EULAs in one, in that tiny text box that only shows like 200 words at a time.

        My boss thought I was on drugs when I started doing that. Although she might be right; windowsupdate is kind of like an addiction. I keep going back for more, just checking to see if there's any new "good stuff" there.

  • duh (Score:1, Insightful)

    by tarzan353 ( 246515 )
    Did we really need a study to confirm this? Just like in zen, sports, or whatever else, there exists a 'zone' for gamers.

    • Re:duh (Score:3, Insightful)

      by krmt ( 91422 )
      If there's grant money involved, a study was obviously needed . Whether it was needed by the general public or just this researcher is another question.

  • In Reply (Score:3, Funny)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:20PM (#3967859) Journal
    "Flow State is an optimal psychological experience..." said Dr Costas Karageorghis, lecturer in sports psychology at Brunel University.
    QUACK, quack, quack--
    I am terribly sorry for that outburst. I have apparently left the duck key pressed on my computer. Please excuse me for a moment while I correct this.
    • You've obviously never played sports. Maybe you object to the term "Flow State" but they had to give some sort of name to it. Ask any professional athlete and they'll tell you about being "in the zone". When I threw a no-hitter in high school I was definitely in the zone. You don't even see or hear anyone, you just execute. His descpition that "It's when you're functioning on auto-pilot, when everything clicks into place and goes right," is dead on.

      I do believe this translates to online gaming as well. I play RTCW and have definitly had a few games where I ran on autopilot and just performed flawlessly.

      So call him a quack and feel free to make fun of me, but there is truth to what he is talking about.
      • The zone is real, of course. I object to this guy pretending to be conducting scientific research.
      • I think you need to make a BIG distinction here between what's being referred to as "flow state" or "in the zone" - and the other phenomenon known as "runner's high". One is psychological, and the other is physiological.
        Not to imply that you were setting up confusion - just that a lot of people seem to think that that's what "runner's high" is.
        Personally, I can very easily get into the psychological state, while running, biking, or fighting, where you're able to shut out all but what you're doing, and this "zone" (I call it "in the groove" - six of one) really helps on the focus so that you can simply execute whatever it is you're doing with less flaws. For me, once in the zone, distractions and especially interruptions become extremely frustrating. Do not bother me when I'm in the zone.

        As far as "runner's high" goes - I *only* attain that state when I'm running. It's very rare that I can do it while bicycling, I'm not at all sure why. And, I have to have been running for at least 15-20 minutes, even longer, and I have to be pushing pretty hard, and I can't always get into it. It's definately a physical thing, and I think it has to do with things like oxygen debt over long periods of time, etc. It's a great feeling, and once it clicks, it's like, I can just run all day. It's a pity, because I'd much rather cycle all day than run all day (bad ankles). But for some reason, cycling just doesn't do it for me.

  • funny seeing this (Score:3, Funny)

    by colmore ( 56499 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:22PM (#3967869) Journal
    funny seeing this after waking up at 1 PM due to a 12 hour marathon nethack session last night...
  • It's pretty trivial to get "The Zone" while playing games. Perhaps everybody that sit down for an afternoon of games has dove into the night, went straight to school or work and came back to play more.

    12, 14 hours or more awake, without eating, in front of a television or monitor. The gaming zone is without doubt the "worst" of them all.
    • If this is your impression of the zone (a lazy stupor), then I think you might be misinterpreting what they're calling "the zone". The zone in gaming is when your entire neurological system seems to be working together to perfection, and it really is an astounding state of mind (and is generally very rare). I occasionally play the game Urban Terror (an online multiplayer game) and generally am middle of the road in skill, but every now and then I'll have a session where everything just clicks absolutely perfectly, and I dominate every round: That is the zone.

  • I know (Score:5, Insightful)

    by iq in binary ( 305246 ) <iq_in_binary@@@hotmail...com> on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:22PM (#3967871) Homepage
    Exactly what they're talking about. I remember playing CS and getting ripped on because everyone was absolutely sure I was using an aim/wall hack; when in reality it was me on a gaming "high" being able to loose a bullet with the hairs on someone's head within a half second of seeing an opponent.
    It's rather hard to explain, but sometimes someone's level of interactivity with the game seems to put the person in their avatar's shoes. If this level of interactivity and concentration can be achieved in other environments (say, a car), you end up with prodigies and "l33ts".
    Nothing new, really, just scientists noticing an ongoing phenomena.
    • 6 kills, 2 seconds, wiped out the whole opposing side. My ghosting friends (pre 1.3) said it looked like a John Woo movie.

      When I was shooing, I had no concept that there was a difference between me and the game. I /saw/ my game hand move on the screen. I /felt/ my real hand move in Real Life.

      I think I was in another Zone quantum.

      Sure, I've been in the Zone the same way you're talking about above, I think a couple-three times. I hope others can back me up on this game connection, especially for FPS.

      • The worst part when playig MP FPS, is when you can't get into the "zone". When every shot seem to hit something else than your target and every other player plays like a god.

    • Yeah, I hear that.

      It happens to me sometimes while the piano, or playing UT. M-M-M-MONSTER KILL!
    • Nothing new, really, just scientists noticing an ongoing phenomena

      Scientists noticing ongoing phenomenon is exactly what fundamental scientific research is all about.

  • They'll look for... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Succa ( 108618 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:24PM (#3967875) Homepage
    ...any possible excuse to play more games, eh? I'd chalk this one up to pseudoscience.
  • As a longtime gamer, I could have told you that myself. But I'm still at a loss as to the common element between religion, sports, and gaming. I mean, the intensity is obviously similar, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. Think about it. What exactly is so compelling about making little virtual characters/objects to virtual things on a smallish glowing box? Damned if I know, but it sure is fun. Anyone else have any ideas here?

    • Re:Weird but unsurprising (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ThePilgrim ( 456341 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:44PM (#3967943) Homepage
      I think it's down to a combination of concentration and pleasure.

      If you are doing somthing you like, this is where my biology lets me down, you produce 'happy' chemicals, possabley also an adrenalin rush.

      This probably combines with the chemicals produced by your brain when you concentrate to get you into 'the zone'.

      How ever, just to piss on the BBC's bonfire. This artical looks more like a puff pice for one of their 'science' programs, as I'd hardly call a recerach sample of 2 with no control a representitve sample.
      • > I think it's down to a combination of concentration and pleasure.

        Bingo. And add to the list musicians, painters, writers, spies, and anyone else who becomes totally involved in doing something. I used to get it pulling loads (that is to say, gathering together the parts needed for a delivery) at the lumber yard I worked at. Piloting an aircraft has done it for me too. Not to mention sex, dance, and probably hundreds of other things. Zen can happen anytime, anywhere.

    • For one thing, people who have experienced it know that there is no longer any difference between themselves and their character.

      According to Zen buddhism and Taoism, it doesn't matter how strongly you concentrate, it's how few distractions you have from whatever you're doing. Atheletes learn as part of their conditioning to push themselves by ignoring fatigue. Monks learn to ignore hunger, fatigue, pain, sorrow, joy, anger, the release of Warcraft III, the temptation of money. Gamers ignore, well, everything. This allows their minds to be wielded completely. No piece of their minds stays behind to remind them to cook dinner or walk the dog. Every ounce of their being is playing the game.

      Of course, ignoring something so completely that it doesn't even enter your mind isn't something that happens in everyday experience. Usually we just "push it to the side" or "put it on the back burner". That's not enough. It has to evaporate from your reality.

      Buddhists, by the way, say there is a significant difference in how it feels to be "the Zone"(the Buddhist word is Satori), when one achieves it without an aid, such as a game or a sport, as opposed to without an aid(the goal of meditation).

  • The !Zone (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cybermace5 ( 446439 ) <g.ryan@macetech.com> on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:27PM (#3967885) Homepage Journal
    In my experience, yes there is a "zone" when everything seems to work and I totally wipe the walls with anyone nearby.

    However, what about the losing streaks? There seems to be another level where everything seems to go wrong, and I have to quit and try later.

    I find it hard to believe anyone would be surprised by this article, though; it's the same for any activity that involves quick thinking and hand-eye coordination. Sometimes the neurotransmitters are extra zippy :-)

    • However, what about the losing streaks? There seems to be another level where everything seems to go wrong, and I have to quit and try later.

      This is caused either by lag or by cheaters. When I'm losing, I first check the latency. If it's over 150, I'm losing because of lag. If it's under 150, I'm losing because my opponents are cheating.

      But if you can't beat the cheaters, join them. I find that accusing people of cheating can be very helpful. Often they will give me the URL where they got their cheats. Unfortunately though I still can't find the file area at goatse.cx.

      How to download music, movies and pictures while you sleep. [binaryboy.com]

      • You sound like Carlin; everyone else on the road is either an asshole (driving too fast) or an idiot (driving too slow).

        And if you can't find the file area at goatse.cx, then you're obviously not looking hard enough. There's a gaping portal to the dump right in the middle of the page.
      • and there's no chance at all that you're just with a bunch of players that were better than you? Come on, we can't ALL be the best Quake gods in the world. Everyone here seems to be saying that they are - "once I'm in the zone, I'm invincible" - unless you also run into another player who's in the zone, and BETTER than you, all other things, lag, cheats, equal.

    • Losing streaks (Score:3, Interesting)

      by xixax ( 44677 )
      However, what about the losing streaks?

      That would be the day I accidentally trashed a very expensive database that we were building by sorting a hash table that was never meant to be sorted. After getting the BOFH to restore it from backup (whew), I told my boss and went home. I am glad I was not piloting an oil-tanker that day in that state. Can tanker captains and jet pilots take the day off becauase they are too far outside the zone?

      Xix.

  • certain games need the zone (Score:4, Funny)

    by Alric ( 58756 ) <slashdot&tenhundfeld,org> on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:30PM (#3967898) Homepage Journal
    Some of my friends play console games, like Frequency, where you have to move your fingers in complex patterns of complex rhythms at a mindnumbing speed. When playing the hardest boards in these games, my friends will often enter a trance-like state. You can yell at them or cut off your own arm, and they will still finish the board.

    I've found a swift blow to the stomach or saying, "Oh shit, the pizza's here, dude. Gimmme your money," are the best ways to pull them out of it.

    Alric.
    • I get like that with a good book
    • It's gonna be awfully hard to continue to punch them in the stomach if you also continue to keep cutting off your arms.

      Are you starved for attention or something? :P
    • Anyone who has played enough of Robotron (in the arcade, stand-up form factor) can attest to the fact that you can occasionally get into the "Robotron Zone" where you can just go through level after level without dying. You stop thinking about where to run and shoot and it just happens. I knew a couple guys who could get into the Robotron Zone and achieve zone 300+.

  • programming zone? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Eil ( 82413 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:33PM (#3967901) Homepage Journal

    Does anyone here ever *think* they achieve this Flow State while coding? I can definitely see the common ground between sports and video games... both require strong mental agility, the constant evaluation of possible strategies and split-second decisions and whatnot.

    And, in light of that, I guess I answered my own question. Programming is more about careful thinking than quick thinking. But then if the key element to being in "The Zone" is concentration, the perhaps coding would apply. Definitely something for me to ponder sometime.

    Oh yeah, and while I do agree with their thesis, that article (not to mention their hideous "cutting edge" methods) sounded just a bit hokey, don't you think?
    • Think? I KNOW I've hit flow state programming. Countless times. You're sitting there and it's just you and the computer. Everything else just goes away and you can just rattle off thousands of lines of code. The focus is so tight you could cut steel with it.

      I've found that the only way to get into the zone in a cube farm environment is put the head phones on and crank your music up to drown everything else out. Instant message software, you're phone ringing or that loud jackass 2 cubes over arguing with the other loud jackass 3 cubes over can break you out of the zone in no time at all.

    • Please see hack mode [tuxedo.org] in the Jargon File.

    • Re:programming zone? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by gwadej ( 596652 )

      So many times I can't count them.

      One of the more interesting effects of this phenomenon in programming is the measurable results. If you are not careful you generate horendous code that can only be understood whail in hack mode. It is possible, however, to generate really spectacular code in that state as well.

      I, personally, think that the issue is not quick thinking or concentration as much as the ability to keep up with a large number of items/issues/concepts at the same time. This seems to have the effect of quick response when actually the person was already aware of something that others had not yet noticed. In code, this is more obvious because badly written hack mode code requires that you understand and keep up with too much to understand the code.

      • My favourite is when you come up with hack mode code that is so perfect that it can't be changed.

        It's clear, it's concise, it makes perfect sense, but if you change anything, some strange border condition pops up and bites you in the ass. The only way to fix it while not in hack mode is to write a function that's ten times longer, to catch all of the special cases.
    • The Code Zone? Sure I've been there, but every time I'm there, the half-witted compiler starts barking and ruins it. Stupid compiler.
    • I know exactly what you mean, I was IN the programming zone yesterday. I redesigned the complete applet based scripting system for our product. I coded as fast as I could type and didn't make a single logical mistake. Nine hours straight. The other 2 guys on the team (I am the lead) came in and sat down at their computers and jaw dropped. 'My god you checked out every single file, and added, lemme see almost 1000 lines of code'.

      But seriously thats something everyone experiences. But I don't believe that this 'scientists' is cpable of testing that. For one he used a self completed questionaire. Everyone lies on questionaires, especially when it involves what they consider their professional abilities.
      There are objective ways to measure brainwave activity, a questionaire is not one of them. Second, although alpha waves are seen during moments of the activity. The only reliable way to stay in an alpha state is still meditation. I believe that his linking alpha in sports figures to alpha in meditation is flawed to begin with. And if you take away the pseudo-scientific mumble about alpha brain waves that he hasn't even tried to prove objectively. You just end up with a guy who says that sports figured and video game players get in the 'groove' and we already knew that.

      Regards,
      George


      • What made me think of starting this thread was the fact that I had a marathon coding session yesterday. Much to my chagrin, I'm actually a fairly mediocre programmer. For instance, the session yesterday consisted of writing some fairly useless garbage for about 2/3 of the session. The final 1/3 was wonderful, though. Somewhere along the line, I became enlightened, rewrote the whole thing, and even managed to come out with exactly what I set out to do. It even seemed relatively clean. Maybe I'm just still in training. :)

        Anyway, to get back on topic...

        Everyone lies on questionaires, especially when it involves what they consider their professional abilities.

        I myself had a good laugh when I read that their entire test was based on each participant answering a questionaire.

        You just end up with a guy who says that sports figured and video game players get in the 'groove' and we already knew that.

        That sounds quite right. I guess that's par for the course when you have the media conducting their own "objective experiments"...

    • Re:programming zone? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Darth_Burrito ( 227272 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @02:24PM (#3968290)
      Does anyone here ever *think* they achieve this Flow State while coding?

      No man, I take a potty break every couple hours to make sure this doesn't happen.

    • Re:programming zone? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by martyb ( 196687 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @02:26PM (#3968295)

      Does anyone here ever *think* they achieve this Flow State while coding?

      Most definitely... often 2 or 3 times in a day. Never before thought to associate it with meditation, but I can see similarities.

      My own experience has been that when I am in the zone, there's a certain balance:

      • I know [most of] the subject matter. There's only so much "new stuff" that I can squeeze into my head in a given period of time. There's a discomfort for me as I approach that limit (think cramming for final exams). The less knew stuff I have to learn along the way, the more room I have available in my short-term memory to keep track of the programming details.
      • There's the right amoung of challenge. There's enough of a challenge so that I'm not bored, yet not so much that I'm overwhelmed. At either of those extremes, there's a feeling of discomfort.
      • I'm making steady progress. When trying to develop a piece of code, there's a whole slew of decisions that need to be made each second. Variable names, language constructs (syntax), algorithms, interfaces, exception handling, etc. When I try something, and keep getting compiler errors, that'll zap me out of the zone pretty quickly. There's an element of risk-taking and success, time-after-time. Confidence builds. Anxieties fade and ultimately disappear.
      • I'm free from interruptions and distractions.. One phone call or someone popping their head into my office for a "quick question" can blow it all away. It's KNOWING that I won't be interrupted that allows me to put my "guard" down and apply a bit more of my mind into it. I can stay focused.
      • I'm physically comfortable. Not too hot or too cold. Not hungry. Helps to not be sick, too. When any of those are operative, it's a distraction from my concentration. The less intrusion from the "outside (physical) world" the better for me to focus on my "intellectual world".
      • I want to do it! There's a hunger, a wanting, a desire... an openness and receptivity. There's a sense of hope and joy and happiness. When I feel FORCED to do something, there's generally a displeasure, resentment, anger, and probably some fear, too.

      By no means is this an exhaustive list; it's just my own experience. Yet, I suspect many of these factors are true for others. Through it all is a sense that things are within my "comfort zone"; neither too much nor too little. There's also a sense of continuity whereby each small success builds on the next until there's a sense that the next challenge can be readily solved, too. When that happens, I have no sense of the passing of time, I can see the minute details along with the big picture and all the levels in between.

      In short, I'm receptive to what's coming in, I'm experiencing pleasure in what I'm doing, and I'm successful in what I'm producing.

      • hey, Marty, can I quote you? Send me an email if so.
      • Yeah, good list.

        I've personally found it easier to achieve in languages other than C/C++; Java is better for this. The point is that C/C++ ramp up the care required rather significantly- dereferencing pointers/variation in the compiler/automagic casts/crashes rather than tracebacks- all these things and more do not make for a pleasant programming experience, and that usually kicks me out- as soon as you're going "what the f**k caused that?"- and hunting around for more data- you're probably gone.

        Still some debugging environments are much better than others, but I work in embedded systems- where the environments often suck and suck badly.

        Still, if you do manage to get in the flow in these languages, then more power to you, your error rate will go way down, and you need more or less zero error rate in many tasks for C/C++.

      • * When I feel FORCED to do something, there's generally a displeasure, resentment, anger, and probably some fear, too.

        Yes, definately. An otherwise enjoyable task can be absolutely ruined (as well as the end results) when you simply add a deadline into the mix.

    • Re:programming zone? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jerf ( 17166 )
      Not only is "the Zone" quite real in programming, one of the most importent aspects of being a great programmer is being able to acheive this state with reasonable reliability. (Nobody can do it all the time.) In fact, smart managers use that to their advantage when figuring out how to organize and manage their programmers [joelonsoftware.com].

      IMHO, it's nothing mystical, and treating it as such as some people do, while possibly fun, is counterproductive in the end. You can't guarentee entrance, but there are definate concrete steps you can take to get there.
    • Yup - of course - it's why I love programming (and quit doing chip design) - it's also why I do my best work at home and at 2am when no one's around (hint IRC is a bad thing :-).

      I think it happens when you get enough of a project into your head so that you can see it all - you have to continue 'till it's all down - I find that my coding speed almost perfectly hits my typing speed (I'm a VERY fast hunt&peck typist - learned on a card punch)

      I don't write perfect-the-first-time code, I spend some time during compile fixing silly typos, and tend to put off declaring simple variables like loop iterators and let the compiler 'remind' me - on the other hand I seem to get the architecture right because I can 'see it all'.

      What I don't do is write really large things all at once - I like to write maybe 1-5000 lines then test them, get some simple functionality working, a place to stand and then continue with the next chunk. Debugging really big programs all at once is a bad idea.

      Documentation is something you really have to work at, I tend to write small notes to myself as I work, then a few days later when the code is not so fresh go back make a pass through the code doing a better job - this gives me a small code review (I always find something stupid when I do this) and forces me to re-understand how everything works.

      As I mentioned above I've spent a lot of time designing chips - as an experienced programmer coming to logic-design (now I have about 10-15 years of each) I've found I write much higher-level Verilog (looks like C) than those around me (most people in that space are experienced logic-designers who do some programming) - I find I can often turn out almost twice as many timed-tested gates than the others I work with - partly I think because working at a high level I can get my whole design in 'the zone' often my whole year's work would actually get designed in under a week (followed by all the back end testing, timing, routing, etc etc for the rest of the year). Historically logic designers have designed at a very low level - gates (kinda like coding in assembly), this is changing, but I think it tends to hide control structures (which are harder to design and debug) and stress data paths (which tend to be regular). The code-a-little-debug-a-little model is also really usefull for gates - write some simple test fixtures as you go (and do quick incremental timing runs on small chunks to make sure you're close to where you want to go). Of course the down side of finishing your gates first is that you always end up pioneering the backend layout flows :-(

  • This is why we have LAN parties... we've known this fact to be true already; when you get ten geeks together in a garage with a tub of caffeine and enough powerhouse computer systems to keep them happy all night long, guess what happens?
    • "when you get ten geeks together in a garage with a tub of caffeine and enough powerhouse computer systems to keep them happy all night long, guess what happens?"

      Well you have a sausage fest.
  • The best game for "The Zone" (at least for me) has got to be Tetris Attack for the Super Nintendo! (They also published a Pokemon-branded version for the N64, but I never played it).

  • So? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dthoma ( 593797 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:40PM (#3967921) Journal
    Why shouldn't gamers be able to enter "The Zone" if sportsmen and the religious can? It's not as if gamers are greatly different, and gaming often requires the same sort of concentration as any sport; gamers do often have the same sort of traits as the religious, such as devotion (must login to Everquest/Planetarion/whatever soon!) and rote memorisation of concepts important to their game/religion (ooh, hit points, defence points, attack points!).

  • i do not know about mediation comparisions but... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by atari2600 ( 545988 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:41PM (#3967925)

    When i am in the thick of action - fragging opponents in Unreal Tournament at a mad pace and protecting the flag at my teams base - or crouching down with the German machine gun in MOHAA to take out the Allies coming towards me in a multiplayer game and crouching in a dark corner to reload - my reflexes are sharp - they better be or i am dead meat.

    Also when playing UT for long periods(~2hrs+) or looking around in eerie corners of System Shock2, my hands become cold and almost the darkest shade of red and my face becomes so hot and to me the world ends and starts with the game in front of me - phone calls are ignored - door rings are ignored when i am in a clan battle - the PC is checked and double checked before those crucial games - and the reflexes have helped me in real life (trust me)...ok back to GTA3.

    Atari

    • When i am in the thick of action - [...] - my reflexes are sharp - they better be or i am dead meat.
      I know that exact feeling - I don't play much anymore, but when I was at the peak of my game (Rainbow Six) I was SHARP when I was playing.

      I remember one fun session, where I was playing at a small R6 tournament at a computer cafe, and one guy thought it would be fun to throw a ball of paper at me to distract me (I had already won that game, we were just playing for points) and he, along with all the spectators and me went WOW! when I just grabbed it out of the air (it was comming at me at the most extreme angle you can see things at, almost straight into my ear) threw it back to him, grabbed the mouse and killed my two opponents with a frag ...

      THAT was fun ...

  • Famous test subject? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Bistronaut ( 267467 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:45PM (#3967945) Homepage Journal
    Is it just me, or is the "gamer" test subject pictured Rowan Atkinson? (Mr. Bean, Black Adder)

  • Playing Music (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ratamacue ( 593855 )
    The "zone" is applicable to playing music as well. I think there are plenty of musicians who would testify to this. I play the drums and I have experienced it before (at least I'd like to think so).

  • Nirvikalpa-Samadhi (Score:4, Insightful)

    by NortonDC ( 211601 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:49PM (#3967962) Homepage
    A term used in Vedanta to refer to the highest, transcendent state of consciousness. It is the realization of "I am consciousness" which exists without the thought, "I am consciousness." In this experience there is selflessness, no-mind, non-duality, and the subject-object relationship momentarily disappears. It is the highest, samadhi-state of non-dual union with one's own consciousness.
    I swear I had this experienced induced by a game of Wolf3D. The power failure in the middle of it was really disorienting.

    quote source [selfknowledge.com]

  • High levels of focus and concentration... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Cloudmark ( 309003 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @12:54PM (#3967981) Homepage
    While I find the research quite interesting, as most of the posts on this thread have pointed out, this isn't particularly uncommon. Certain individuals have the ability to narrow-focus in the extreme when presented with the correct stimulus.

    All of the individuals described (athletes, strongly religious people, and of course coders/gamers) are inclined towards extreme focus, high levels of motivation, and activities that lend themselves to those traits.

    It would be interesting to see reseatch done to determine if there was any neurochemical basis for this type of hyper-focus. Do certain brains, when presented with a particular stimulus, produce certain chemicals/neurotransmitters that lead to this heightened awareness and performance?
    Also, are there any side-effects? People have described elation, ecstacy, etc. Is this purely mental or is there a biological basis for it?

    • It would be interesting to see reseatch done to determine if there was any neurochemical basis for this type of hyper-focus. Do certain brains, when presented with a particular stimulus, produce certain chemicals/ neurotransmitters that lead to this heightened awareness and performance?

      A guy with an almost unspellable name of Cziksentmihalyi has done a lot of work in this area. It'sa blend of nature and nurture, that is, neurochemistry *and* psychological development. Further information in Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience [amazon.com] and Optimal Experience: Psychological Studies of Flow in Consciousness [amazon.com]. Perhaps most tellingly, most of the work in this area of psych is funded by the DoD -- they want super-alert soldiers who will stay sharp for days on end.

      Searches for a simplistic neurochemical solution rather remind me of the Emergent's "Focus" neurovirus in Vernor Vinge's Deepness in the Sky [amazon.com]
  • "'Recent research has suggested that it could be possible for a person immersed in a computer game to achieve the same level of meditative concentration' usually found in religious contemplatives and athletes in 'The Zone.'" Just think what this will do for the online porn industry!
  • My experience with this is that it can apply to lots of different areas. I think the key is that you're working within a special set of rules, and at some point, you forget what you're actually doing. Normally you still know you're just sitting in a chair playing a game, or coding a program, or maybe throwing around a football. But at some point you just forget all that, and it's like in your mind, the rules of the game are the 'rules' of the real world. To you, there's nothing going on outside of what you're doing. Thinking about it that way, I see no reason it couldn't apply to anything that requires heavy concentration and operates on a set of rules that's different from those of every day life. I think most of us have experienced it in different contexts.

    I think it's interesting that this is a phenomenon that a lot of us have discovered on our own, but they're just starting to understand why it happens. I'd like to see more research on this subject in other contexts.

    --b.

  • The Zone?! (Score:4, Funny)

    by letoram ( 40049 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @01:02PM (#3968002)
    "You unlock this door with the key of imagination. "

    ./quake3.x86 +set fs_game osp +connect door 27960 +password imagination
    *check*

    "Beyond it is another dimension. A dimension of sound."
    :opening /dev/dsp
    *check*

    "A dimension of sight."
    :...loading libGL.so: Initializing OpenGL display
    *check*

    "A dimension of mind..."
    :self.fetch_coffee.drink
    uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh *check*

    "... You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone"
    why yes indeed :-)

  • I don't know if I've been in the same zone the article speaks of, but some friends and I have come to a conclusion that the #1 symptom of being overly immersed in a video game is talking absolute nonsense without realizing it. You'll be staring into the screen, and you'll utter completely random phrases that may only loosely, if at all, tie in to anything that's going on around you. Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

    Also, I've been in a state playing games where I repeat the same thought, image, or phrase over repeatedly in my mind until I accomplish the particular part I'm trying to beat in the game. This is pretty common, at least when I get to a point where I'm definitely "stuck" in the game. This thought doesn't necessarily have to do with the game, most often not, actually. Again, can anyone else relate?
    • It does actually get worst than this, when working on programming problems I have been so immersed that even at home my mind would continually return to it. So i end up muttering nonsense even when not activily engagaged in what I am thinking about.

      My wife hears me muttering things under my breath now and just assumes I am working on something challenging at work. For me it usually happens right after I wake up. For some reason my unconcious mind believes it has to help me out with programming problems. SO you dream about it until you get it worked out, which isn't much help because you can't program in your sleep, your not logical enough.

    • ... I repeat the same thought, image, or phrase over repeatedly in my mind until I accomplish the particular part I'm trying to beat in the game...

      This sounds exactly like the way people get into a meditative state by repeating a word or phrase (out loud or internally), or concentrating on a mental image.

      Maybe you have learned to boost the alpha state so that your gaming improves. How about that! You've reinvented the mantra.

      As for the nonsense part, when you get into a meditative or semi-meditative state you can watch your stream of consciousness which is full of random stuff. You can also do this when dropping off to sleep.

      Ever tried meditating? You sound like it would come natural to you.
  • I feel like I'm in The Zone when we're playing mad 4 player Tekken Tag for hours.

  • The original nintendo tetris, level 19+. If you're very very good, perhaps level 22+. At that level, one mistake left or right, a piece over or under-flipped, and it's mayhem. Staying in the zone is a must, otherwise you can't even play. Those who've reached a sort of tetris-nirvana can make a mistake and not even flinch. I've known a person I'd call a "tetris high monk" who has gotten to level 29. All you can do is laugh while he plays since it's unreal.
  • I experience this most often when some friends and I engage in hours of play of The Next Tetris for N64. I'll be able to glance quickly up at the next 3 pieces and instantly recognize the best places to put them down. Once the pieces start coming down to the point where you get about .25 seconds to place them, you better be in the zone or you're screwed. Also, after playing the game for a few hours, I can still close my eyes and see the pieces falling into place, forming the ultimate, holeless tower - it seems the zone never wants to let go of me once I leave.

    Though nothing can rip you out of the zone faster than seeing the exact piece you needed finally arrive after just giving up on it ever coming. That takes me out of "The Gaming Zone" and into "The Smash The Controller Into The Wall Zone". DAMN YOU STRAIGHT LINES!
  • "If athletes use computer games, maybe to relax, and they do get into Flow, and they learn what that experience is all about, it may be that there is something they can extract from that experience and put into the sporting context,"

    Good examples of this are NASCAR drivers, their racing series runs primarily oval tracks but about twice a year they run on a road course. Because many of them have limited experience with these tracks I know that some drivers use video games to help learn the layout, braking points, and passing areas.

  • DDR! (Score:2)

    by Jeremi ( 14640 )
    A great way to achieve a 'flow' state is to play Dance Dance Revolution [ddrfreak.com] at the appropriate skill level. Which makes sense, since the game combines some elements of both video games and sport -- you receive the benefits of both mental concentration and exercise.
  • it seems that the more complex the game, the more often people reach high concentrations.

    like i've seen people get really disconnected
    while playing Homeworld or even something "slow" like Civ, but you don't see too many people going into trances playing solitare, now do you? :)

  • On Meditation... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Meditation isn't some practice to achieve some 'state'. Buddhists and those who meditate who aren't just empty nirvana-seekers know that the practice of silent meditation is the easy part.

    True meditation is to have choiceless awareness of all things(self and otherwise) seep into your life so that you are fully Awake moment to moment. This is the real work.

    Game playing and sports training are just (Pavolvian) conditioning. Real meditation is pure awareness without goal-seeking.

    I meditate and have been in the 'zone'. They are not the same thing.
  • A previous story [slashdot.org] claimed that video games were bad for the brain because they repressed beta wave activity. This supposedly leads to lower cognitive activity and that's supposed to be a bad thing. Well, zen monks and atheletes lower their cognitive thinking in order to practice their craft and here we call it a good thing: getting in "the Zone".

    All this proves is that data can be interpreted in different ways. It has more to do with political "spin" than science. I want to know who is funding these studies. Computer gaming is a multi-billion dollar industry, so there is a lot at stake.

  • The psychology of optimal experience (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ascii ( 70907 ) <ascii AT microcore DOT dk> on Sunday July 28, 2002 @02:02PM (#3968218) Homepage
    FYI - what Dr. Karageorghis is referring to is Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi's work on "Flow - The psychology of optimal experience" in which he describes the characteristics of enjoyable experiences. The following is an excerpt from the book, describing these characteristics:

    1. the experience usually occurs when we confront tasks we have a chance of completing.
    2. we must be able to concentrate on what we are doing.
    3. - 4. concentration is usually possible because the task undertaken has clear goals and provides immediate feedback.
    5. one acts with a deep but effortless involvement that removes from awareness the worries and frustrations of everyday life.
    6. enjoyable experiences allow people to exercise a sense of control over their actions.
    7. concern for the self disappears yet paradoxically the sense of self emerges stronger after the flow experience is over.
    8. the sense of the duration of time is altered.
    (Csikszentmihalyi; p49)

    What's interesting is the similarity of these characteristics to some works done on computergames by Greg Costikyan ("I have no words and I must design"), Chris Crawford ("The Art of Computer Game Design") as well as works on games in general, such as Avedon & Sutton-Smiths "The study of games".

    Csikszentmihalyi's work is !very! interesting if you're into the epistemology of computergaming, which - humbly - happens to be the topic of my graduate thesis ;)
  • I read an article linked from someone's blog that suggested that the Zone could be achieved by anyone through drilling and training oneself to breath exclusively through the nose (assisted by the use of breathe-right nasal strips). Something to think about while you're gaming. I don't remember where it was linked; I saw it in someone's blog linked from the Is My Blog Hot or Not? [hotornot.com] page.

    I think I managed to achieve the zone, or something like it, once or twice during typing tests in my high school typing class. So it's not beyond the realm of possibility that concentration might have something to do with it too...
  • Hey, it's /., and I want to share anything remotely near-topic. So here's my experience (non-gaming though):

    I bike a lot. The only people I know who spend more time on a bicycle than me are competitive races (I can't afford to do it). I bike at a high enough speed to sometimes pass people in cars. Anyhow, I was biking home from work one evening. There were two people on the sidewalk in front of me. I couldn't cut into the street, traffic was a bit heavy. I didn't want to have to stop if there was another way, so I swung to the right onto the grass. Problem was there was a tree in front of me. It looked like I could go right under it, but I couldn't see the lower branches because there were no leaves on them. As I got closer I realized that would hurt like hell. So I pressed on my breaks. Well, soon as I apply just a small bit of pressure, the front tire locks up hard. I take off - a good 5 and a half feet high and about 15-20 feet forward; right at the shoulder height of the two people on the sidewalk who were quite curious for the first few seconds as to why a person was flying through the air. I landed sprawled out, face down. And I layed there thinking "Hey, that was awesome! It kinda hurt, but damn was it fun!" The catch behind it was that I was able to sit here and think all of this, spend a few more seconds (as I percieved it - this whole account had to have finished within about a second from the time I hit the ground) laying on the ground, and still reach up and grab my bike out of mid-air with one hand before it pegged me in the back of the head. Not the same as being in the "gaming zone" really, or even the same you experience in an athletic event, but my mind had to be going WAY faster than normal to realize what was going on before I injured myself.

    Before anyone says anything about how I shouldn't be on the sidewalks, I am an experienced bicyclist that knows how to handle the thing. I've never come close to hitting anyone, and frankly the drivers in my city aren't always nice to people on bikes. And a note to pedestrians: when you see somebody on a bike coming towards you fast - don't try to avoid it! I get people all the time who think they can help themselves by moving. But that's like driving unpredictably in a car. All they end up doing is going to one side, then trying to go to another leaving me confused and slamming hard on the brakes to avoid them. Anyhow...

    • You said..

      Before anyone says anything about how I shouldn't be on the sidewalks, I am an experienced bicyclist that knows how to handle the thing. I've never come close to hitting anyone

      Whereas before that you said:

      So I pressed on my breaks. Well, soon as I apply just a small bit of pressure, the front tire locks up hard. I take off - a good 5 and a half feet high and about 15-20 feet forward; right at the shoulder height of the two people on the sidewalk

      Okay, I guess you're too in the zone to check what you're typing, right?
      • Ah, I was indeed at the height of their shoulders - but about ten feet to their right. The lockup was a result of the terrain I think. Or just dumb luck. Only time it's ever happened to me. Still not close to hitting anyone, except maybe myself.
  • I wonder if reserarchers ever go into the zone while researching the zone? Would this be a meta-zone perhaps? Did these scientists reach that meta-zone? We should get some people on this quick!

    This is not the .sig you are looking for.

  • Zen of ... doing things (Score:3, Interesting)

    by magi ( 91730 ) on Sunday July 28, 2002 @05:41PM (#3968895) Homepage Journal
    In Zen buddhism, and many schools of martial arts, you can find the following concepts:

    Isshin, "one mind", means extreme focusing on a single topic or a target. One archery master has written: "One life, one arrow. Use your entire life for firing one arrow."

    Zanshin, cautious mind, means broadness of perception, being aware of everything that's happening around you.

    Mushin, empty mind, is totally free of fear, distress, pain, and other distractions. "Mushin doesn't get entangled to anything, but flows as freely as a flowing water, finding its way in a riverbed."

    The goal is to find a mental state where all three aspects combine.

    Of course, martial arts teachers say that mushin can only be attained after years, if not decades, of practice. I don't know if that's true - they might be confusing superior mental state with actual superior performance, which is a combination of skill, physical prowess, and mental state, and might therefore not be relevant.

    I believe these aspects are pretty common in about everything people do, not just martial arts, sports, computer games, or zen monk business. Some martial arts people, such as the sword master Mushashi, have said the same, when they have observed the same mental states in artistic performers, and actually in people of all professions.

    Personally, I love computer games, and especially in first-person-shooters I often find moments where the game just "flies" with a deadly rhythm. There's definitely zanshin there, and possibly also isshin and mushin. Assuming that I'm right about the meaning of isshin and mushin, I might say that mushin is very common in playing, while isshin is less clear.

    Such mental states do not of course quarantee success, because you're probably not the only good player there, and good skill, reactions, and especially items may usually give better results that any game Zen. ...maybe the "easily flying game" is just because I've managed to scrounge all the best weapons and armor...

    Games do resemble stimulant drugs. I just finished Baldur's Gate, which I started playing two weeks ago. When I started, I played 30 hours straight with almost no breaks. I didn't feel any need for sleeping or eating or doing or thinking anything else. It's same thing with all new games, usually I play them through in a weekend.

    As a side note, I must say that attaining such states might be easier for some people. For example, ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) is often associated with super-concentration, one which is often compared in psychological texts to "a mental state common with top athletes". Go figure.
  • Funny, how so many people are quick to put on their CSICOP hats and debunk, debunk, debunk, yet when almost the same research said the same thing about achieving an alpha state while watching television in an effort to decry television there weren't so many skeptics.

    It looks like the subject matter here is on trial and not the science. Video games must be bad regardless of the facts to some people it seems.

    I'm an experieced meditator and have had a lot of time to play with sound/light and feedback machines. I can tell you with a straight face that if you park me in front of the local Galaga machine I will get into an alpha state after the first few levels and do very well until I break my 'silent concentration.'
    • I get into the state (that is, have a couple of times) when circumstances forced me to watch a video that I didn't want much to be watching, but had to sit through anyway.
    • Yes, there are games that are good for getting into the zone, and there are games that are not so good.

      Galaga is DEFINATELY one of the good games. Everyone I know who "clicks" with Galaga (including me) - can get totally hypnotized by this game.
      Sinistar was not so good. (but still fun). Sinistar made me feel like my adrenal gland was running dry after the first level.
  • If anyone reading this has gone beyond the alpha ("zone") state into the next phases, I sure would like to talk with you.
  • Kaboom! [atariage.com] for the Atari 2600 and Tempest 2000 [atariage.com] for the Atari Jaguar are the only two games for which I've ever entered a trance-like state.

    With Kaboom!, it was an attempt to hit the 10,000 point mark. By the time I was at the higher levels, all there was in front of me was the TV - the rest of the room and the people in it faded into the background. It was cool. :^)

    With Tempest, you need strong focus to see past the flying pixels and giant "EXCELLENT!" that get between you and the baddies down the tube. The techno music helps a lot, too. ;^)

    The only other game that's come close was WipEout for the PlayStation. With that game, though, it just got to the point of "need to pause before scratching nose."

    -bill!

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