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Science

Cheap Spray-on Plastic Solar Cells Coming 172

Posted by CmdrTaco from the now-isn't-that-special dept.
coyote1 writes "The Sacramento Bee reports about custom-tailored molecules and spray-on plastic could someday create the next generation of solar cells -- more flexible, more efficient and much less expensive than existing sources of solar power. Nanotechnology is used to organize the molecules that are sprayed onto a surface."
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Cheap Spray-on Plastic Solar Cells Coming More

Cheap Spray-on Plastic Solar Cells Coming

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  • Partly Organic? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Smitedogg ( 527493 )
    Those inorganic nanorods were then combined with the organic part of the operation, a liquefied plastic semiconductor, to create a solar cell that could be sprayed or painted onto almost any surface. How is a liquified plastic semiconductor organic? Dogg
    • Plastic is made from petrochemicals (oil), oil is from aged and compressed carbon compounds (dinosaurs, etc.)
      • oil is from compressed carbon compounds (dinosaurs, etc.)

        This wouldn't be the Internet if there wasn't at least some dissenting opinion [cornell.edu] around. (-: This from a Professor Emeritus [cornell.edu] at Cornell [cornell.edu].

        Here's a soundless-bite from the abstract in case you think I'm kidding:

        Thomas Gold

        U.S.G.S. Professional Paper 1570, The Future of Energy Gases, 1993

        Modern information re-directs attention to the theories of a non-biological, primeval origin. Among this information is the prominence of hydrocarbons-gases, liquids and solids-on many other bodies of the solar system, as well as in interstellar space. Advances in high-pressure thermodynamics have shown that the pressure-temperature regime of the Earth would allow hydrocarbon molecules to be formed and to survive between the surface and a depth of 100 to 300 km. Outgassing from such depth would bring up other gases present in trace amounts in the rocks, thus accounting for the well known association of hydrocarbons with helium. Recent discoveries of the widespread presence of bacterial life at depth point to this as the origin of the biological content of petroleum.



        You'll be pleased to discover that an awful lot of other stuff you `know' is completely wrong. (-:

        For another example: most modern aircraft, notably jetliners and military aircraft don't rely on [monmouth.com] the Bernoulli effect [andrews.edu] (you know, the faster-air-lower-pressure-over-wing thing you're taught in science classes at school) to fly. Think about it: if Bernoulli kept aeroplanes in the air, how could you fly one upside down? (-:

        Are you interested in a few other foundation [geocities.com]-shakers [science-frontiers.com] for you knowledge base? There are plenty [earth-house.com] of them around [pagerealm.com]! (-:

    • Re:Partly Organic? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Yobgod Ababua ( 68687 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:32PM (#3250990)
      In the context of chemistry and materials, organic refers to a material based on carbon (an element abbreviated as C). Additional elements that are commonly found in organic materials are hydrogen (H), nitrogen (N), oxygen (O), phosphorus (P) and sulfur (S).

      So... if the plastic is carbon (or hydrocarbon) based, it's organic. Note that this definition of organic has nothing to do with the one used to refer to naturally grown produce.

      • Re:Partly Organic? (Score:3, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        So... if the plastic is carbon (or hydrocarbon) based, it's organic. Note that this definition of organic has nothing to do with the one used to refer to naturally grown produce.


        Now could someone please explain what "free-range" plastic is?

        • could someone please explain what "free-range" plastic is?

          There's a pop-hole at the end of the factory, which the plastics product can nip out through for a breath of relatively fresh air, some sunshine, and a bit of a peck and a scratch. Free-range eggs work the same way, the little blighters are always getting out through the mesh fencing because of their streamlined shape.
  • Imagine the uses, spraying it on electric cars. Even though spray paint and solar energy don't go well together : /

    • Re:uses (Score:2, Interesting)

      by BigBlockMopar ( 191202 )

      Imagine the uses, spraying it on electric cars. Even though spray paint and solar energy don't go well together : /

      Well, the primary problem with solar cells is that it takes more energy to make them than they'll ever be able to harness from the sun. In other words, it takes more fuel to run the crystal furnaces which are used to make them, than they'll ever be able to pay back.

      If spray-on solar cells don't have to be fired, that must reduce the energy required to make them. Further, if they're spray-on, they probably won't be so hard once they're set. Hard = brittle. Brittle = breaks during thermal cycling, ie. day/night transitions eventually crack them.

    • Spray them on the south side of buildings. (Your hemisphere may vary) Hopefully they'd generate enough power to offset the increased cooling requirements in the summer.

      As for cars, it would be back to Henry Ford's Model-T: Any colour you want as long as it's black.

    • Imagine the uses, spraying it on electric cars.

      The amount of energy required for a car (even a hypothetical "supercar") is orders of magnitude beyond the amount of energy in the sunlight that hits its surface.

      Pave your yard with cells and you're starting to approach it.

      Or move to a billiard-ball flat planet with no atmosphere.

      • Re:Forget it for cars. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by ParisTG ( 106686 ) <<tgwozdz> <at> <gmail.com>> on Friday March 29, 2002 @10:37PM (#3251602)
        We who design solar cars [engga.uwo.ca] beg to differ :).

        Although you're right, current generation solar cars can only generate about 1-1.6 kW or so, but even then they can cruise at or above 75 km/h.

        Of course, right now it's not very comfortable, only seats one person (usually), and is bloody expensive, but who knows what the future will bring?
      • The solar cells don't have to run the car (although that would be nice), but they can certainly boost the batteries, or recharge them while it sits in the parking lot for 8 hours, after your 30 minute drive to work (those numbers might vary, of course)

  • Personal Applications... (Score:4, Funny)

    by geogeek6_7 ( 566395 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:15PM (#3250890) Homepage
    Now I can spray this stuff all over my body and never have to replace the batteries in my mp3 player ever again! Also, it could bring a whole new light (so to speak) to sunbathing... Imagine all the pasty white geeks hittin' the beaches once they commericalize this stuff...

  • Spray on plastic? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Loki_1929 ( 550940 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:15PM (#3250891) Journal
    I guess this means people who "tag" buildings with this stuff can send out electric bills to the people who's buildings they tag?

  • The saddest part is that I have a subsciption to it, but I find out about it here. Good ol' Slashdot :)

  • Great news, but still a ways off... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bmw ( 115903 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:18PM (#3250908)

    "It's not a big breakthrough. ... It's a step in the field where there's a lot of things going on," said Alivisatos, who directs the Molecular Foundry, a newly created center for nanoscience at the Berkeley National lab.

    ...

    It could take a decade or more for hybrid solar cells to make it from the laboratory to someone's rooftop system, and much could go wrong along the way, said Robert McConnell, who oversees federal funding of cutting-edge solar research for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory.

    It's always nice to hear of advances in technology like this, but it seems we're still pretty far away from practical use. Just imagine if most of the electricity using world was running on solar power. I hope I live to see the day.
    • Just imagine if most of the electricity using world was running on solar power. I hope I live to see the day.

      Oh you do, do you? What if everything was reliant on solar power and something catastrophic blocked out the sun? Don't you know that humans are the next best power source in line after the sun? I, for one, would rather not be alive to face that [thematrix.com] future.
    • . . .after all, wood, oil, and coal are just stored solar energy. And you could argue that since all the heavier elements are the result of extended stellar fusion, so is nuclear power.

      But in all seriousness, unless you cover a LOT of area with solar panels, even of the spray-on nanotech variety, it won't be enough for really heavy industry. OTOH, it WILL make roads and parking lots additionally useful as power sources. . . .

    • Well, according to conservative monkeys like George Bush, solar is already the way to go as long as it's done in big facilities like the one mentionedhere [sandia.gov]. Ol' GeeBee likes the way it's being done in an evolutionary rather than revolutionary way. You know --prudence. Nobody move to quickly now and nobody gonna get hurt. What incredible leadership.
      It's just that Herbert Walker's favorite solar project isn't photovoltaics, it's solar concentrators --nothing but mirrors. They use them to power plain old steam turbines in the tens of megawatts range. You know, the ones that cost millions of dollars to operate and install. Ol' Georgie, he likes that strategy a lot more than the stuff this story is preaching because that way the power infrastructure doesn't get all distorted by having all these small time know-it-alls get all uppity and start talking all that free power socialist horseshit. It's just like bandwidth in the States. People think it HAS to cost money. They'll lose their jobs if it doesn't. Hell, if power gets too cheap, the Bush's aren't going to have any more ways to raise all that goddam campaign money. They barely cut it with Enron gouging full throttle. If the prices fall any lower, where's their margin gonna come from? You got to keep yer eye on the ball son.
      But nanotech, yeah baby. We have to assume it will definitely lead to some interesting shit. Might be revolutionary in more ways than one if it enables end users to much too fast. Wouldn't be prudent.
      Photovoltaic is interesting, but there's no reason nanotech won't spill over into thermoelectric stuff too or perhaps some kind of new ways of generating and harnessing plasmas in little MEMS devices. Who knows. But solar works in the here and now at least in the only important sense which is financially. That's one thing nukes will never be able to do.
      And even if nanotech energy devices never come to pass. I strongly believe we're going to see a real social revolution when somebody hacks these glucose monitor MEMs microneedles to deliver safe clean IV hits of coke, meth, ecstacy etc and starts selling them on the street. Now there's a market rumored to be bigger than electronics.
  • Maybe it could provide enough "umph" to overcome this effect (from the bostic.com list):

    http://www.sundaytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml ?x ml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F02%2F10%2Fwnasa10.xml
    Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up
    pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is
    being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect
    shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper
    into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that
    the probe has revealed a new force of nature.
    http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/ gravity.m ystery/
    "It's the same magnitude and the same direction, namely pointed
    toward the sun. The force points to the sun in both cases," said
    Anderson.
    http://physicsweb.org/article/world/12/ 1/5
    The motion of these spacecraft is governed by the gravitational
    fields of the known bodies in the solar system, and can be
    calculated very accurately from general relativity. Anderson's
    analysis shows a small but systematic departure from the
    expected motion. Indeed, the spacecraft move as if they were
    subject to a new, unknown force pointing towards the Sun. This
    force imparts the same constant acceleration, ap, of about 10-7
    cm s-2 to all three spacecraft, about ten orders of magnitude
    less than the free-fall acceleration on Earth. Such a finding,
    if it were not explained away by some mundane effect, would be
    a major break with accepted physics.

    • Oh Puleeze. Isn't it obvious? These spacecraft are not accelerating toward the sun, the Universe (and thus the Solar System) is expanding past them. Sheese.

      What was that you said about hats?

    • How can a clearly Offtopic -1 post be modded up as Interesting +1?

      I find the pioneer-10 grav anomaly as interesting as the next person (who happens to be an astrophysicist right now), but come on! This is a topic on Solar Cells for chrissake!

      • There's absolutely no reason why a post can't be
        both offtopic and interesting. It's fair
        moderation. However, both your post and mine,
        being niggling meta-content, are (while still
        offtopic) entirely uninteresting.

  • I just got a spray in bed liner. Now imagine if that same stuff (I think it was RhinoGuard?) with the same durability could also supplement my charging system, act as a trickle charger for my battery, or run camping gear while I'm out in the bush. Spray on sounds pretty cool, but I'm only going to be interested if it's durable.
    • If it was flexable as well as durable, spray it on the tent. Of course, you'd still have to haul along batteries/fuel cells to be charged, as well as things to use that power. (The question of being able to run computers, stereos, XBOX/PS2's in the middle of the woods, being a "good thing", I leave to somebody else.)

  • Yesterday's news (Score:4, Informative)

    by blamanj ( 253811 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:30PM (#3250977)

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=58 5&u=/nm/20020328/sc_nm/science_solar_dc_2 [yahoo.com]

    Whine:* 2002-03-28 22:53:09 Paint-on solar cells (articles,news) (rejected)

  • This field is crazy (Score:4, Interesting)

    by aphexbrett ( 220057 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:33PM (#3250993) Homepage
    The cool thing that most people don't know is that this type of technology is going to be everywhere. For example, I'm sure most people have heard of OLEDs (orgainc light emitting diodes, Alan Heeger won the 2000 Nobel prize for this stuff among other things), the newest research is being done on small organic polymers that absorb photons at almost 100% quantum efficiency. What this means is, one day you'll paint your house and the whole thing will be a solar panel, you won't need specialized tiles. This will also be extended to cars, boats, etc. the implications are truly amazing.

  • Just imagine the suburbs in years to come... Huge expanses of similarly shaped houses all with sprayed solar cells on their roofs used to heat their swimming pools.

  • Something like this could make us much less dependent on coal or nuclear-based energy sources. And using this w/electric-powered vehicles...hmm.

    Sounds bad for the "energy companies".

    So, uh, when does the FUD campaign begin? Lobbyists, start your engines...

    W

  • story link lame humour (Score:3, Funny)

    by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:35PM (#3251010) Homepage Journal
    Just spray it on your bare computer components and you have an ass-ugly computer with no case AND no power cord!

    HEHEHEH sorry but the link just had to be made.

    graspee

  • captain planet pulls out a can of spraypaint and squirts it a bunch of punks defacing a building. The punks are instantly turned into enviornmentally freindly power sources...
  • That spray-on hair replacement "substance" of infomercial fame, to cure male-pattern baldness.

  • Another link (blatant Karma whoring) (Score:3, Informative)

    by Grumpman ( 64344 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:41PM (#3251056)
    Here ya go [cnn.com] Not much more info, but a pretty picture of a non-painted solar cell ;-P

  • PV powered future (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cowscows ( 103644 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:41PM (#3251057) Journal
    I'm studying architecture, and sustainability and enviromental design is starting to be a big thing in buildings. Solar Power is one of the major technologies that will make it all work. The biggest obstacles to widespread use in architecture are price and appearance. Both of these will be overcome, and I imagine that photovoltaics will be integrated into most building materials. Right now they're seperate pieces applied to a building, but I think they'll some how be integrated or sprayed onto more traditional (or at least more traditional looking) building materials, so their existance could be a non-issue, at least from a visual standpoint.

    On a larger level, I imagine urban areas becoming communities of buildings, all saturated with PV, generating all sorts of power. The buildings would on average generate more electricity than they need, and just release the extra into the local power grid. Instead of everyone getting their energy from a single provider, production would be distributed through all of the buildings, and energy would flow freely to where it was needed. A lot like the distributed internet systems we're starting to see now. There would most likely need to be some sort of external system for peak useages, and I'm sure heavier industrial buildings can require more energy than their buildings could provide, even with maximum PV use. But the advances in PV, along with the growing popularity of energy conserative design should make the power companies nervous
    • "There would most likely need to be some sort of external system for peak useages, and I'm sure heavier industrial buildings can require more energy than their buildings could provide, even with maximum PV use."

      Luckly, peak use and night time do not coincide.

      Only now we need to make batteries as easy as solar cells. Can you imagine 2 tons of lead acid batteries in every house in SanFrancisco?

      Can you say fire?

      How about earthquake?

      Nasty implications of a distributed grid.

  • Combine this with the other story.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by r_j_prahad ( 309298 ) <r_j_prahad@hotm a i l .com> on Friday March 29, 2002 @08:57PM (#3251161)
    Maybe the guy who built the spray-foam PC in the earlier Slashdot article could coat the whole mess with this stuff too. Add some 802.11b and it'd be completely self contained. A little spray paint, and voila!

    Cyber-turd.
    • Took the words right out of my mouth.
    • Uh yeah, but like.. The spray paint would block the light. Plus, I think that they didn't mean paintable in the traditional can-and-brush sense, but in a controlled laboratory they can apply it in a liquid state to manufactured panels and/or materials.
      • they didn't mean paintable in the traditional can-and-brush sense, but in a controlled laboratory they can apply it in a liquid state to manufactured panels and/or materials.

        Someone will find a way. If your driveway does basically nothing all day, would you pay, say, $3000 to have it and your roof sprayed and hooked up to your synchronous inverter, to save you $500 a year in electricity bills?

        I think the vandals will start using it when it has storage and spray-on LEDs included. The spray-on LEDs are already done, storage could be an issue. Maybe super-capacitors backing each solar nodule...? It would cause a revolution in the bubble printer ink industry as well. Wouldn't you pay more for ink that went into a photonic frenzy when it got warm or was exposed to light? A bit for self-organisation and you could have blinking ink, or even ripples or marquees...

        BTW, the biggest fly in the ointment for T(H)GSB is that everyone will clock on to see if it's working. People are like that. There will be record-breaking hit counts on that day. (-:

  • consumer electronics (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    this is great for small cheap consumer electronic things, ie: calculators, spell checkers, orginizers. Today, things are being built at 1.8v, imagine never replacing the battery in your calculator, or pocket orginizer.

    Forget your pocket-pc or palm - they draw too much current. I'm talking about those cheap $5 to $10 products that have a small coin or button cell. No more button cells, no more coin cells. This is great.

    It can save lots of money..

    • With reflective LCDs, decent demand throttling,
      and magnetic RAM, you should be able to make a
      competitive lap that runs on it's case paint.
      Reaching even deeper, imagine it was running an
      SOI/copper self-clocked reversible CPU. The thing
      could probably run on hand warmth. (That's
      hyperbole.)

    • imagine never replacing the battery in your calculator, or pocket orginizer

      Hey, I already have a solar-powered personal radio and a soloar-powered calculator -- I bought them both quite a few years ago.

      I also have a solar-powered battery charger that I use to recharge the NiMh and NiCad batteries I use in some of my other portable electronic items such as my LCD pocket TV and my Walkman.

      The future is already here -- you just have to look for it ;-)

  • poetically speaking... (Score:3)

    by envelope ( 317893 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @09:13PM (#3251253) Homepage Journal
    Spray-on solar cells
    Collect energy for free.
    Good-bye fossil fuel.
  • "The Sacramento Bee reports about custom-tailored molecules and spray-on plastic could someday create the next generation of solar cells -- more flexible, more efficient and much less expensive than existing sources of solar power.

    Quantum encryption and quantum computing may be just around the corner!

  • Are those things that should be out there, but isn't.

    Thing is they could do it with current photoelectric power cells.

  • Big Oil (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Solar power is supposed to help us rely less on oil. However, these new solar cells are made from plastic, which doesn't help our dependency on oil. Also they don't mention how long these solar cells will last. Plastic is degraded by UV radiation and these solar cells might not last nearly as long as the silicon solar cells.

    • Re:Big Oil (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Waffle Iron ( 339739 )
      Solar power is supposed to help us rely less on oil. However, these new solar cells are made from plastic, which doesn't help our dependency on oil.

      That's OK. We use the rest of the oil in the ground to make plastic solar panels. It will generate orders of magnitude more energy per barrel of oil than burning it.

      When it's worn out, much of it can be recycled. Even with recycling, after a long time, all of the oil will be depleted. At this point, we can start converting coal into hydrocarbons to make plastic. We'll have 1 or 2 orders of magnitude more plastic available.

      I would guess that be enough plastic to get us through the next 20000 years or so. After that, we might need to think of some other way to get energy.

    • Solar power is supposed to help us rely less on oil. However, these new solar cells are made from plastic, which doesn't help our dependency on oil.

      No, it does help. I expect the amount of "oil" needed to produce a photocell is very small compared to the amount of "oil" needed to produce, via combustion, the equivalent amount of power generated by the photocell over it's lifetime.

    • Re:Big Oil (Score:3, Informative)

      by spike hay ( 534165 )
      However, these new solar cells are made from plastic, which doesn't help our dependency on oil

      To power your house for 20 years, you might need 10 pounds of plastic. That is 10 pounds of oil, or roughly a little over a gallon. Compare that to the thousands of gallons you would otherwise use. Just think more critically. Even with all the plastic we use today, it barely makes a dent in oil usage.
  • ...self-healing chip technology? Think of it. With nano-tech building and arranging molecules, you could boost or repair a memory array. Oh, that technology warms me from the inside.
  • This is exactly like the "Black Power" described in Larry Niven's "Flatlander" series. A black substance sprayed onto any surface to provide solar collection.

    I love it when science fiction leads the way to science fact.

    • This is exactly like the "Black Power" described in Larry Niven's "Flatlander" series. A black substance sprayed onto any surface to provide solar collection.
      But is it subject to Pupetteer-engineered supraconductor plague???
  • I can see it now:
    Pretty much the same movie as before, but jazzed up a bit.
    The big diff: When poor Jilly gets the all-over spray paint makeover, she no longer suffocates.
    Not only is she electrocuted, but her body continues to power a flashing neon sign that says simply, "This, 007, is a clue."
  • This is great stuff, and sprayable solar panels will go a long way where the silicon haven't.

    But there are some applications where it just won't be that useful. The energy density of full sunlight is just a bit over one kilowatt per square meter -- and that's the sunlight intensity, multiply it by the conversion efficiency to get the electrical power, then add in cloud filtering, nighttime, and sun angles at other than local noon in the tropics.

    It might run your air conditioner in the summer if you have a roof covered with the stuff, but it isn't going to become the sole source of power for electric highway vehicles. (Look at the designs of the solar race cars.)

    But it's still cool.
  • I can just see it now. Environmentalist fanatics running around cities like 1980s gang members with spray paint cans, spraying grafitti on anything and everything... all in the name of polutionless electricity.
  • Just in case anybody is wondering, the solar panels available today are neither "clean, renewable energy" nor cost efficient in terms of long-run payback. In almost all cases, the energy used to produce today's solar panels is greater than will ever be recovered by use within their approximate 10-12 year lifespan. When you add the energy and waste cost of inverters, lead-acid storage cells, etc. you end up with a power supply with far worse environmental impact than typical utility-provided power--especially if your local utility is nuclear--yes, nuclear is clean power, folks. Many solar installations also will never pay for themselves. So basically, today's photovoltaics are in essense expensive batteries. Lots of energy is put into their production, then they're shipped off somewhere else and they give you some of that energy back.

    Right now, unless you live in a climate with very abundant sunlight and are off the grid due to location, the best alternative (electrical) energy sources are wind and possibly some of the new home fuel-cell units just arriving on the market. Plastic or other more exotic solar cells will definitely be interesting if they materialize, though--especially if they last longer and are easily/cheaply recycled.

    But don't forget passive solar!! You don't have to convert it into electricity to make use of the sun's plentiful energy. With the right engineering and a suitable location, it is quite possible and inexpensive to use solar for most or all your home heating/cooling, cooking, water heating, etc. needs. Look around online; there's some interesting ideas out there. Plus-good for geeks who want to beat the system and whatnot. (-:
    • Wish I had a mod point for ya. You are spot on (speaking as an person with some direct experience in the field).

    • Re:Current solar and other alternative energy.. (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      ...Just in case anybody is wondering, the solar panels available today are neither "clean, renewable energy" nor cost
      ... efficient in terms of long-run payback. In almost all cases, the energy used to produce today's solar panels is
      ....greater than will ever be recovered by use within their approximate 10-12 year lifespan. When you add the energy
      ....and waste cost of inverters, lead-acid storage cells, etc. you end up with a power supply with far worse
      .....environmental impact than typical utility-provided power--especially if your local utility is nuclear-

      Inverters (and other control electronics) will have a useful live of ...oh, forever. Lead-acid is not the only storage
      mechanism. Some power can be used straight off the cells and not stored at all so only some needs to be stored.
      10-12 years is an assumed life which I'm not convinced is correct. Besides once you get to 10 years plus, the
      dominant factor is usually going to be whether the return on investment is higher than prevailing interest rates.

      ....yes, nuclear is clean power, folks.

      Well, nuclear power is both clean and cheap, if you ignore the costs further down the line of what to do with the waste and
      the decommisioning costs. (Oh and if any maintainence is required on a nuclear plant, it is ***really** expensive, due to
      the procedures required. And you have to do something with the old contaminated parts)
      Once all of those costs are taken into account, it is questionable whether nuclear power makes any economic sense at all.
      (even before factoring in the risks).

      Personally I reckon you are Mr Burns from the Simpsons.

      .....Many solar installations also will never pay for themselves

      I'm not sure I can agree with you. Consider a 60W (small indeed) solar panel array available today for #149. (thats retail price
      that anyone can get for a one off small scale panel, so the manufacturing costs must be less than that).
      At 8hours per day, say 300 days per year that gives me 8*300*0.06 = 144 KWHrs.
      (Yes,this is for a fairly sunny location). 144KWHrs is worth approx #0.05*144 = #7.2.
      So thats, 7.2/149= 4.8% return on capital.
      Not going to make you instantly rich, but not as uneconomic as many folks would make out.

      Don't just listen to the promotional material (propaganda) put out by the nuclear, oil, or environmental
      lobbyists. Do the sums for yourself.

      (and I could also get 750W for #1399, which gives a 6.4% return [ (750/1399)*(149/60)*4.8 ] which is
      pretty good compared to current interest rates. (Although at the end of the period you consider,
      you have a solar plant with it's capital value, rather than the original cash capital in the bank)

      Basically, nowadays it comes down to a question of whether the return on the initial upfront cost is better invested in the
      bank at current interest levels and used to buy electricity produced by other means, or invest the cash in something which
      will produce more worth of electricity than the interest on the capital cost.

      ...Right now, unless you live in a climate with very abundant sunlight and are off the grid due to location, the best
      ...alternative (electrical) energy sources are wind and possibly some of the new home fuel-cell units just arriving on
      ...the market. Plastic or other more exotic solar cells will definitely be interesting if they materialize,
      ...though--especially if they last longer and are easily/cheaply recycled.

      Wind is good if you are somewhere windy.
      Fuel-Cell units are not a means of *producing* energy. They just let you convert stored (usually) hydrogen into energy.

      ...But don't forget passive solar!! You don't have to convert it into electricity to make use of the sun's plentiful
      ...energy. With the right engineering and a suitable location, it is quite possible and inexpensive to use solar for most
      ...or all your home heating/cooling, cooking, water heating, etc. needs. Look around online; there's some interesting
      ...ideas out there. Plus-good for geeks who want to beat the system and whatnot. (-:

      Indeed, solar water heating (not photovoltaic) , is economically feasible (and has been for a long time) , especially
      if you keep the costs down by doing a D-I-Y installation (and don't use silly overpriced vacuum tubes).
    • I agree with all your points apart from the bit about nuclear fuel being clean. I don't think anyone can predict what is going to be happening at any point in the world in 50 years' time, or 500, or 5000, or 1,000,000. But if you produce radioactive material, you have an obligation to make SURE that your waste material is not going to harm something down the line, be it human or whatever takes over when we get wiped off the face of the earth. The incredibly long half-life of waste material coming from nuclear reactors makes nuclear energy about the most irresponsible thing we can do to the planet.
      Now if you send it (waste) into the sun, I may be interested... But I don't think that's economically feasible.
      • Nuclear waste is a pollitical problem more than it is a scientific one. There are methods for converting waste fuels into new fuel for nuclear power plants (IFR, ALMR) These plants would essentually eliminate all the nuclear waste we currently have. Granted, the process still produces radioactive waste, but the half life of that waste goes from millions of years to hundreds of years. Pollitically howerve, this cant be done, since plutonium is an intermediate step in the process, and we dont want to promote proliferation of nuclear weapons.

    • The old myth again (Score:3, Informative)

      by basfromasd ( 223148 )
      How much longer will we have to deal with the old myth that PV systems will never pay back the energy they cost to produce? Instead of just repeating the old mantra you might read on what people who have actually done the math (a method called Life Cycle Assessment) have found. Depending on the technology used (crystalline silicon vs. thin film technology), a solar panel delivers the energy it cost to produce in less than one year upto a few years. If you use a solar panel instead of roof tiles the energy payback time is even (a lot) shorter. And it's not like this information is new. A search for life cycle assessment photovoltaic returns almost 6000 hits on Google [google.com].

      Now in terms of economic value: given the fact that prices of PV systems have come down dramatically over the past decades, while electricity has only become more expensive, it is already economical in my country to install PV on homes and other buildings (and the Netherlands is not a particularly sunny country!). It will not make you rich and it takes years to pay for itself, but it will in the end.

      And nuclear energy is clean and cheap? Give me a break! I thought we all knew better than that. It sounds like Dick Halliburton Cheney is speaking.

      I do agree on the statement that solar heat systems (hot water) are much more economical and pay back for themselves much quicker. And yes, wind turbines work very well too and pay back for themselves (at least in this windy country).

  • Alivisatos and other team members believe their design could be beefed up for use in calculators or other small solar devices in two to five years.

    Who the f*ck cares ? You can already buy solar powered calculators. In 2 to 5 years they are going to do something you can already do ?

    Every few years there is going to be a big breakthrough in solar. First it was amorphous, now it's polymer. As long as research programs like this are getting 100's of thousands of dollars while the wars the US fights to keep oil supplies stable cost 10's of billions of dollars - don't bet on solar.

  • Are They REALLY Here At Last?? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by serutan ( 259622 ) <`moc.nozakeeg' `ta' `guodpoons'> on Friday March 29, 2002 @11:59PM (#3251835) Homepage
    My oldest memory of reading about amorphous semiconductor photocells of the future is from the early 70's. They were the brainchild of Stanford Ovshinski [mit.edu], who later invented metal hydride batteries. Good to know amorphous solar cells might finally be taking off.
  • The implications for quantum computing are staggering!
  • So not only can the Sacramento Bee not manage to deliver a paper to my apartment in a timely manner, but now thanks to the /. effect I can't even get to their website in a timely manner.

    I guess it's time to read the SF Examiner again. :P
  • First, I think the spray on cells are a great idea. They could use CFC propellant as a method to improve gain as they are deployed.

    But I jest.

    More seriously, has anyone looked at the potential for global cooling of converting significant amounts of solar energy to mechanical? Sure some of the input to machines is returned to heat, but any movement is solar heat the we'll never get back.

    I'm serious.

    And let's not forget that Earth Day was organized to fight global cooling . . .

    -Peter
  • Amorphous solar cells were supposed to get real cheap too, but they've stayed about the same as crystalline cells, which are made like ICs. And the efficiency still sucks.

    Remember, Moore's Law doesn't help solar cells, because smaller isn't better.

  • This will be good for student solar car projects, which in a way are paving the way for new age solar cars in the future. They are plagued by the high costs of the solar cells though...
  • How does the solar energy get to my laptop in the house? All the shiny dust in the world won't power a light bulb unless there's a path from the + to the -.

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