Free Scientific Software for Developing World? 212
FlashBoltzmann asks: "I'm a physics student in the US working with a group
of physicists, mostly from Africa, who are interested in helping their colleagues on the continent obtain free software for
scientific and educational use. Often, many science
departments in Africa have little or almost nonexistent
funding to purchase new software packages, especially for
scientific research or education. Some know of the free
software available but say it takes up large amounts of time
over often slow internet connections to find and obtain it. I am asking for any recommendations on freeware or open source software, for any operating system, that anyone knows about. We are looking at the Debian version of Linux for a lot of the great software
that comes with it but resources for MS Windows would be
helpful as well."
"Free educational software of any level is appreciated though we prefer college and graduate level software. Also, field specific software is great, e.g. software for condensed matter physics. Eventually we'll probably combine the software on CDs to be distributed to these scientists. Any help is appreciated especially with programs that perform simulations, mathematical and statistical analysis and plotting, compilers, lab software, etc. The users of the software will most likely be physicists or mathematicians."
The one to begin with... (Score:3, Informative)
This typesetting program was originally aimed at the scientist. I don't know of any other software that produces nicer documents.
and the second is (Score:1)
Re:and the second is (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The one to begin with... (Score:2, Interesting)
Now I've started using it for reports and documents at work (anything to save me from MS word). I started using Lyx at first, but I found I actually liked doing LaTeX by hand better.
An old math favorite (Score:5, Informative)
Open Channel Software (Score:3, Informative)
I recall
Reasons to not bother with Windows (Score:2, Troll)
If you're hurting for cash for software, the outlook is probably not all that great for hardware too, right? The cutting edge of Linux and the various BSDs all run well on hardware that the latest Windows versions cough and sputter on.
Also, providing a Windows learning environment is only going to encourage use of Windows down the line, which will require further investments, software AND hardware upgrades etc.
If you're working with a blank slate, and these people need training anyway, might as well put it towards something that won't come back and make serious demands on your checkbook. Save the money for additional learning resources, a CD burner to replicate software for yourself (this is legal with the Linux and BSD OSes), etc. Don't go down the proprietary road, or else soon enough you'll be dealing with the same MS-driven crap the entire Western world is trying to handle right now.
Re:Reasons to not bother with Linux (Score:1, Troll)
If you're hurting for cash for software, the outlook is probably not all that great for hardware too, right? The cutting edge of Windows and the various DOSs all run well on hardware that the latest Linux versions cough and sputter on.
Also, providing a Linux learning environment is only going to encourage use of Linux down the line, which will require further investments, software AND hardware upgrades etc.
If you're working with a blank slate, and these people need training anyway, might as well put it towards something that won't come back and make serious demands on your checkbook. Save the money for additional learning resources, a CD burner to replicate software for yourself (this is legal with the Windows and DOS OSes), etc. Don't go down the proprietary road, or else soon enough you'll be dealing with the same VA-driven crap the entire Western world is trying to handle right now.
Re:Reasons to not bother with Windows (Score:2)
Anyway, back to my Red Cross story, they wanted me to go through these two Excel spreadsheets of volunteers to weed out duplicates and it looked like a dauntingly tedious process,
Of course, you could have just merged the two lists in Excel, sorted them, and then written a VB program to delete the duplicates. What, 2 minutes work?
Just because you don't know how to use a tool doesn't mean it's a bad tool.
Re:Reasons to not bother with Windows (Score:1)
Do you really think I wouldn't have sorted the list if doing so would have helped?? Come ON!
Re:Reasons to not bother with Windows (Score:1)
just because you have a tool doesn't mean that it's the best tool for the job.
Re:Reasons to not bother with Windows (Score:2)
they wanted me to go through these two Excel spreadsheets of volunteers to weed out duplicates and it looked like a dauntingly tedious process, so I converted the spreadsheets to comma-delimited text files and booted the Dell I was given to work with to a Linuxcare CD, mounted the disk, and used cat and grep to go through the list at several times the speed I was expected to go at. If I were a "Perl Monk" I am sure that I could have blown through it in even less time.
Or you could have done the same with tools written for Windows, only replacing type for cat and loosing the CD boot/mount thing.
Of course, I see your point. Unix is inherently more flexible when it comes to doing non-standard things, and utilities talk to each other much more seamlessly. What I want to note is that there is an enourmous world under Windows beyond what Microsoft offers, some of it open source. If a staff is already comfortable with an OS, I don't think it would be wise to migrate, except if there are at least two people proficient with Unix (which might well be the case) and time and budget for training. OTOH, maybe your example sprung up to my eyes just because I'm so used to using Borland's grep that I'm beginning to feel it's part of the OS!
A note on distributions: I imagine the situation in Africa as being similar to the one in Brazil as far as hardware is concerned, that means a lot of cheap/old cards that may not be supported by many distros. If you (the submiter of the original question) face that kind of problem, try Conectiva Linux. They have paid special attention to that aspect. [conectiva.com.br]
Try NA/European physicists & mathematicians (Score:4, Informative)
I worked for a little while in a government research library, and about half the people in the building were both scientists and programmers. They developed a lot of their own tools, and most of them were coding for some *nix, many on Linux.
They didn't care about other people getting their code. I would expect universities to be the same way.
As for bandwidth, that's much less of a problem now with CD burners. I'm assuming your Third World people have CD-ROMs, but given that, if you can talk to some First World scientists & get them to burn and ship, it might well be cheaper.
VI + EMACS (Score:1, Funny)
Quick question (Score:1)
Moderators: THIS IS NOT A TROLL. The question is simple: if you're already w4r3zing Windows, what refrains you from w4r3zing your scientific software also, and in the process saving us from these terrible Ask Slashdots of late?
Re:Quick question (Score:2)
Microsoft also donates alot of Windows licenses and other software to scientific and other institutions overseas.
windows trap (Score:3, Interesting)
yes, MS sells campus licenses at EXTREME discounts (like $20 for Office and less for the OSs), but the hardware requirements are heavier.
most people in academia are not swimming in cash, so this means old hardware, and an array of diverse machines connected to a server. linux is the ideal software partner for a small research group, in my opinion.
the other factor, as somebody else pointed above, is that GNU or public tools are used by almost everybody. most papers are swapped in
still, the crucial factor that made me wipe out windows for linux was stability. when you do not have a double Xeon crunching numbers, you appreciate the fact that linux will not crash during the 3 days it must be ON.
Re:Quick question (Score:2)
Re:Quick question (Score:1)
SAL: Scientific Applications on Linux (Score:5, Informative)
SAL - Scientific Applications on Linux (Score:3, Redundant)
linux box has some listed (Score:1)
linux.box.sk [linux.box.sk]
They may not all be the best but as a physics student some can be kinda cool to play around with.Netlib and more (Score:5, Informative)
It's best in linear algebra (matrix problems etc) but there's other good stuff in there - FFT routines, statistical stuff, some deep mathematics, and more... Also, not free, but good, is the standby Numerical Recipes book, which includes source code for a large variety of uses, particularly solution of nonlinear optimization problems.
Other stuff is available free from the supercomputer centers - at least they used to give stuff away free, though NCSA [ncsa.edu] at least seems to have tried to make money off their things lately...
Re:Netlib and more (Score:5, Informative)
some of the resources I use:
Netlib (www.netlib.org [netlib.org]) -- Yes, it's mostly Fortran, but that's a good thing! Just use f2c (easy to find) and translate to C if that's what you want. Don't underestimate the power of decades-old programs -- old == widely used and well-tested.
StatLib (lib.stat.cmu.edu [cmu.edu]) -- Collection of statistical software, in various languages, including C, Fortran, and S.
SAL, Scientific Applications on Linux (sal.kachinatech.com [kachinatech.com]) -- a very large collection of links.
Freshmeat (www.freshmeat.net [freshmeat.net]) -- Not scientifically oriented, but there is much scientific stuff there, along with all kinds of miscellany.
Octave (www.octave.org [octave.org]) -- A package for matrix manipulations, similar to Matlab, but free. Useful for all kinds of problems.
R (www.r-project.org [r-project.org]) -- An implementation of the S language for statistics, but also useful for general problems, similar to Octave. S+ is a commercial implementation of S.
Well, that ought to be enough to get started. To echo something other posters have mentioned -- don't even bother with Windows software. If your budget is tight, save your money for hardware, don't waste it on the MS tax.
Re:Netlib and more (Score:2, Informative)
Why is it that whenever this topic comes up, everybody always talks about Octave and gnuplot as if these are the only things available?
If you want a self contained program that runs on multiple platforms, take a look at Euler [ku-eichstaett.de]. This is about as close as it gets to being a MatLab clone.
astro software & some stats too. (Score:3, Informative)
For professional astronomy software, I recommend http://star-www.rl.ac.uk/
Some nice but steep stats software in the R project http://www.r-project.org/
And you can use Octave & gnuplot for basic maths. (admittedly not as good as mathematica,matlab or some other maths package.)
This URL http://www.seul.org/sci/seul-sci10.html has a review of linux & GPL packages that are useful to scientists.
It is also probably worth asking some of the software vendors if they would like to donate something, as really, you never know! (if the cause is good...)
Good luck!
fz
Re. Matlab under linux (wine) (Score:1)
Physics Analysis Workstation. (Score:3, Informative)
Great for graphical representation, and statistics. Released under GPL.
I remember using it about three years ago under Red Hat for reconstruting cosmic ray showers. Can't see any possible problems with Debian...
It was great for what I was doing.
Matt.
Re:Physics Analysis Workstation - ROOT (Score:2, Informative)
It's aimed at the Particle Physics community but is currently in use in a wide range of fields from Astronomy to banking!
Oh yes, runs on Linux and Windows...
Re:Physics Analysis Workstation - ROOT (Score:1)
I wasn't aware of this but I'm going to check it out.
Also, it's possible to call CERN libraries from C/C++ but amusingly, you need to #include <cfortran.h>. Who says the scientific community is underfunded?
Joking aside, I've used far too much Fortran doing scientific stuff.
Matt.
Re:Physics Analysis Workstation. (Score:2)
Something almost as hard to learn but somewhat easier to actually use is Physica [triumf.ca], developed at TRIUMF [triumf.ca]. It's the main program I used to do my M.Sc. analysis work. :)
For data aquisition (and generally running an experiment), I strongly suggest looking into MIDAS [midas.psi.ch]. It's really powerful, and has a web interface (with optional password protection), electronic log book, etc, which is really helpful for experimenters to keep tabs on things from home. Especially when "home" is in another city (or even country).
scientific apps for linux (Score:1, Informative)
scientific applications for linux:
http://sal.kachinatech.com/sal1.shtml
for ee:
http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/linux.
scilab (math&calc. like matlab):
http://www-rocq.inria.fr/scilab/
texmacs (kickass easy wysiwig scientific document editor):
http://www.texmacs.org
(and also has a lot of links to other scientific software)
scigraphica:
http://scigraphica.sourceforge.net/
linux apps
http://www.linuxapps.com/?page=category&categor
University of Tokyo Physics (Score:2, Interesting)
We have correspondence programs with several universities in Africa in which we will provide to them our outmoded hardware. It is unfortunate that often, we are not able to replace our hardware as often as we would prefer, but when we do, we attempt to find a physics department without adequate hardware.
Also in the course of completing their theses, graduate students must write various software tools to assist them. The copyright to these tools belongs to the University if I am not mistaken. Although my University does not distribute these freely as some would prefer, they are sometimes provided to the other universities which have the hardware necessary to run them (with the consent of the programmer student of course).
Yes, there is more that may be done, but I believe that we are working to genuinely assist other physics programs which are less fortunate that we are in some respects. Does anyone else know of similar programs?
R. Suzuka
Theorem proving software (Score:2, Informative)
See: http://archive.comlab.ox.ac.uk/formal-methods/hol. html [ox.ac.uk] amongst other pages.
Stuff that I use (Score:2, Informative)
The GNU scientific library (GSL) can be found here: http://sources.redhat.com/gsl/
Intel Image Processing Library (C): http://developer.intel.com/software/products/perf
Intel Signal Processing Library (C): http://developer.intel.com/software/products/perf
VTK is an *extensive* visualization toolkit (C++): http://public.kitware.com/VTK/
So Internet is too slow to download distros? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:So Internet is too slow to download distros? (Score:1)
Electronics schematics capture package (Score:2)
The package also contains a PCB design package and other good stuff; however, you have to pay to unlock these (not excessive amounts by the standards of most design packages, but £1-2K is a lot for someone in a developing country or your typical hobbyist). If you're on a real budget, just use the schematic capture part to produce netlists, and then use an old DOS/Win3.11 PCB layout program such as BoardMaker for the PCB design.
Grab.
Re:Electronics schematics capture package (Score:2)
Grab.
useful research programs ( and libraries ) (Score:2, Informative)
For graphing:
For Numerical Analysis:
-
GSL ( Gnu Scientific Library ):
[redhat.com]
language bindings for perl,python, and C++ for GSL are also available.Check out the Scientific Computing FAQ: [mathcom.com] which I've been having trouble reaching so you might want to try the Google cache [google.com] of it.
GAP -- Computational Group Theory and more (Score:4, Informative)
If you want to use GAP for research or teaching and can't download it (we've had people whose bandwidth is too low, and people whose countries do not allow arbitrary internet downloads for political/religious reasons) let us know (mail one of the addresses on the Web site) and we can usually manage to send a CD.
Steve Linton
Seriously... check out Freshmeat.net (Score:5, Informative)
K-3D modeling, rendering and animation software (Win32 as well):
http://midas.psi.ch/
Isotopic Pattern Calculator (Link may be wrapped):
http://www.uni-duesseldorf.de/MathNat/pc1-AK_We
MayaVi (Visualization Software):
http://mayavi.sourceforge.net/
MIDAS (Data acq software for particle physics):
http://midas.psi.ch/
GraphThing (Graph Theory tool):
http://members.optushome.com.au/davidsymonds/gt
GNU TeXmacs (Technical writing tool, great for technical docs with formuli):
http://www.texmacs.org/
There are 130 projects on Freshmeat, which is probably just the "tip of the iceberg".
I am not a troll.
Octave (Score:2)
Octave [octave.org] is a matrix manipulation package, released under GPL - basically a clone of MATLAB. It has scripting capabilities, which allow development of simulation software.
TISEAN (Score:2, Informative)
It does excellent job on its part. There is also some documentation on the site, including one of the creators' Ph. D. thesis that explains some of the theory behind the software. On Linux it requires gcc and GNU Fortran complier to compile (compilation is pretty straightforward).
I also found GNU awk [gnu.org] extremely useful at numerical data analysis. You also would want to include Python [python.org] and NumPy [pfdubois.com] - python extension for numerical computations.
HTH
Alex
Some useful free tools (Score:2, Interesting)
The thesis was written in LaTeX, using emacs, and made printer friendly with dvips.
The data plots were done in gnuplot.
The simulations were written in c with gcc or Fortran with g77. For the matrix analysis algorithms I used LAPACK. For minimization routines I used some of the Numerical Recipes routines, which aren't free software exactly, but Numerical Recipes is an easy book to buy used off Amazon.
I know that all of this stuff is really old-skool, but, it all works fine.
Re:Some useful free tools (Score:1)
http://lib-www.lanl.gov/numerical/index.html
Things I use at work... (Score:5, Informative)
- VTK [kitware.com]is a very good package for scientific visualization.
- Maxima [sourceforge.net] is a Free computer algebra system, a bit like Mathematica. It can solve equations, do calculus, plot things, produce TeX output of what you've done, and lots more. Incredibly useful for long tedious bits of algebra.
- gnuplot [www.ucc.ie] is a versatile graphing package (2D and 3D, but maxima or VTK are IMO better for 3d stuff). As well as graphing, it can try to fit arbitrary functions to your experimental data.
- LaTeX [latex-project.org] -- it's very hard indeed to typeset equations better than LaTeX can.
If you're interested in condensed matter physics (or a few other areas), then you should have a look at the Los Alamos E-print server [arxiv.org], which contains preprints of a lot of scientific papers.Sacrilege! (Score:1, Offtopic)
Debian is Available on CD (Score:1)
Debian is readily available for a modest price on CD from vendors such as Cheap Bytes. Since all the software in Debian is Free you can purchase a few sets of CD's and then duplicate them as needed. You can even resell the duplicates to help defray your costs.
Perl Data Language (Score:1)
PDL turns perl in to a free, array-oriented, numerical language similar to such commerical packages as IDL and MatLab.
Downloading free software (Score:1)
These people have heard of and know all about free software. I'm a physics PhD myself so I'm sure that any physics dept. in the world uses GNUplot, F77 (free fortran compiler), LaTeX etc etc
The problem they have is downloading the software over crap pipes you say?
Why not simply get the people they are colaberating with in the richer countries to post the software!? Its not hard, and if you are posting results and reserch papers to each other all the time, it is not as nieve as it sounds! (These guys do colaberate with other physics depts, right?)
a very good site ... (Score:1, Informative)
I think the official site is at http://sal.kachinatech.com/ [kachinatech.com].
many applications there , not all free though
octave and matlab (student version) (Score:3, Informative)
since i installed my student version of Matlab at home, i have used less my Octave. Matlab also can be bought at academic prices, which are still too expensive for cash-strapped academia.
as for linux vs. windows, if you have to leave you computer on for 10 days for a simulation, then linux stability is a nice bonus...
Re:octave and matlab and Ptolemy (Score:1)
$5 for MathCAD is a much better deal than my $100 for Matlab
nevertheless, outside the US where universities have less muscle to get good deals, student licenses are still expensive for the less-priviledged students. therefore, people go the GNU/Linux way.
Ptolemy [berkeley.edu] is a good tool if you want to model and simulate systems.
lotsa *nix sci freeware in french (Score:3, Informative)
Its in French... but then again the majority of my African friends speak it.... there is a lot in there
Sciences et ingénierie
Scientific Applications on Linux http://SAL.KachinaTech.COM/
Index très complet d'applications scientifiques et professionnelles (gratuites, shareware ou commerciales) qui tournent sous Linux.
Statistiques
fiasco http://www.fsf.org/software/fiasco/index.html
xldlas http://a42.com/~thor/xldlas/
MacAnova http://www.stat.umn.edu/~gary/macanova/macanova.h
R http://www.ci.tuwien.ac.at/R/contents.html
Calcul formel
MuPAD http://www.mupad.de
Maple http://www.maplesoft.com/
Mathematica http://www.wolfram.com/
Macsyma http://www.macsyma.com/
Magma http://www.maths.usyd.edu.au
Macaulay2 http://www.math.uiuc.edu/Macaulay2/
Singular http://www.mathematik.uni-kl.de/~zca/Singular/
Analyse numérique
Scilab http://www-rocq.inria.fr/scilab/
Matlab http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/mlover.s
Octave http://www.che.wisc.edu/octave/
Here's an idea (Score:2, Funny)
Python (Score:1)
Ecology (Score:1, Informative)
http://www.cbs.umn.edu/populus/
it teaches some of the basic differential equations, some cellular automata, an "interaction engine" wherein you can enter your own diff eq's and view their outputs (only 2 or 3 can be viewed simultaneously), and a bunch of other things...
it is currently being developed in Java, and is available for all operating systems (that have Java)
check it out! it's "fun for the whole family!" you will see models that you have done in your school years (simple population growth) and a lot you probably haven't.
Numeric Python EM Project has a lot of EM codes (Score:1)
Rob.
The Stony Brook Algorithm Repository (Score:1)
LyX (Score:1)
http://www.lyx.org
an excellent free GUI for LaTeX. Writing my dissertation would have been even more painfull without it.
Weka- statistics and machine learning (Score:1)
I use an open-source data analysis package called Weka [waikato.ac.nz].
It was developed in Java, and it's quite easy to modify and extend as you see fit. Solid documentation available on the website. Excellent CLI, decent GUI, decent graphics. Really useful for doing basic statistical analysis and using some of the more interesting machine learning techniques.
Perhaps some evil corporate sponsorship would do (Score:1)
linux is the answer (Score:2, Interesting)
not only is it a free os, it also provides ALL the core tools you need to do research! for example you have TeX (+ several excellent text editors), the whole gnu compiler suite (and debuggers), excellent plotting tools for data and image manipulation (gnuplot, gimp, xgrace,
there are a lot of other scientific applications you can get for free for linux if you are in an academic environment and which are awesome tools to use for researchers. i have seen many responses already with good pointers to different places (SAL, freshmeat, CERN, IBM Open DX).
finally, once can also make computational clusters with linux -- really inexpensive ones!
mupad (Score:4, Informative)
It's some sort of mathematica lookalike, superior in some cases and they have free versions.
It's been a while since I used it, but it was great.
Re:mupad (Score:2)
Have tried this. My ripes include the fact that is that it is somewhat slow (compared to proprietary computer algebra systems like Maple or Mathematica anyhow), and (gasp) it uses XView. Yes, the old GUI toolkit Sun once created for Open Look and their OpenWindows desktop.
The worst part about it is that it's NOT open source/free software, which means that you're basically betting that the folks at the University of Paderborn who developed it aren't going to stop maintaining it or will suddenly stop making versions of it that are freely usable. Keep this in mind if you decide to use it.
GIS system (Score:2)
not that I even deserve to post but... (Score:1)
Online Learning Tools (Score:1)
Anybody can submit links but each link is graded by professors from Universities and Colleges that pay a fee (a really big fee). This system ensures that only the good tools get online. It takes a minimum of 3 stars out of 5 to be linked. This encourages improvements (rejections get feedback) in tools to become easier to use and more educational.
It's FREE (no registration at all) to and layed out into easy to navigate catagories (Arts, Biology, Math, Physics, etc...)
open-source science textbooks (Score:1)
IRAF for Astronomy/Image Processing (Score:4, Informative)
Although aimed at astronomy, it would be useful general image processing (particularly good at automating procedures over many images).
Fortran compilers (Score:2)
Ptolemy (Score:1)
From their website:
"The Ptolemy project studies modeling, simulation, and design of concurrent, real-time, embedded systems. The focus is on assembly of concurrent components. The key underlying principle in the project is the use of well-defined models of computation that govern the interaction between components. A major problem area being addressed is the use of heterogeneous mixtures of models of computation."
R (aka GNU S) (Score:2)
R comes with Woody (Next Debian release).
Connections and Connectivity (Score:2, Insightful)
I really like Yorick.. (Score:1, Interesting)
arbitrary dimension so you can multiply
a 6 x 4 x 8 matrix by a 4 x 8 x 2 matrix and
end up with a 6x2 matrix (I think). Advantages
are c-like syntax (scilab/matlab are UGLY),
Graphing, and MPI interface. Downside is
that it doesn't have that big a user following.
You can find out more here:
ftp://ftp-icf.llnl.gov/pub/Yorick/doc/index.html.
Or hit up google.
-- cary
ignore this please (Score:1)
Numerical Python (Score:3, Informative)
Here are a few more links:
The Python website: http://www.python.org
The Scientific Python Project: http://www.scipy.org
Cheers,
-DA
I use CERNlib. (Score:1)
It is geared for high energy physics data analysis, but it has many useful tools for doing things such as histogramming data and plotting data, as well as many other numerical routines. MINUIT, the minimization package that comes with CERNlib is the best around.
The package is FORTRAN based, and works with g77/Linux as well as other systems.
They Need Hard Copies (Score:1)
Based on this, I think what would help the most would be hard copies of the scientific software people have mentioned. I would also recommend looking at SuSE's [suse.com] boxed distribution, because it contains 7 CDs or 1 DVD worth of software. Spending a few hundred U.S. dollars to get a box into every organization is probably much cheaper than the amount they would have to spend on their slow Internet connections to download several GB of data to each organization.
However, those scientific and research packages mentioned aren't going to be part of any distribution. FlashBoltzman can post the resources listed here to a web page, but maybe he should routinely grab software and then each month or quarter burn a few CDs or DVDs to send to Africa.
A few favourites we use (Score:2, Informative)
There's plenty more where they came from. Most distrbutions come with a lot of these things anyway. These are mainly analysis or document tools, there's plenty of other things for both these areas and any other which plenty of other posters have shown. I've written a little guide [liv.ac.uk] for my local group. Some of it's out of date (and some of it's wrong but I have better things to fix) but it does have a list of common tools we use. And, of course, SAL [kachinatech.com] is a pretty comprehensive database of unix tools. HTH.
Re:A better solution (Score:2, Flamebait)
Some people have a problem with abandoning their country. Besides... if you wanted a video game from Japan, or a beer from Canada, would you go and live there so you could have it? No, you wouldn't. You'd import it, and that's exactly what they want to do.
It's people like this that make us Americans look arrogant and stupid.
Re:A better solution (Score:2, Insightful)
Your idea is probably the most stupid I've seen so far today.
Don't be silly (Score:1)
Well, I think these countries are in need of scientists.
Nonsense, what these countries need is food, healthcare and an end to the endless brutality of tribal warlords, not some ivory tower academics sitting around pondering issues. Until they acheive stability, there is no need for these countries to bother with providing for scientists, especially ones that can't compete with Western researchers anyway due to a lack of resources.
Why not instead put all american scientists (with all their funding) in countries with less opportunities to give money to research? This would give a lot of job opportunities as well.
How foolish! Not only would we be squandering a national resource, but we'd be sending our scientists to a life of misery grubbing in the dirt for food to life, let alone engage in constructive research.
I think you need to check your facts first before posting.
Re:Don't be silly (Score:1)
Anyway, fostering scientific research is one of the ways to help these countries develop. Only sending them aid is a sure way to keep them in a state of dependence, not development!
Haven't you ever heard the saying: give a man a fish and you'll feed him for one day. Teach a man how to fish, and he'll be able to feed himself for life.
Re:Don't be silly (Score:1)
Issues like better agriculture, healthcare and a way to build a decent society?
Why would they want compete? I am sure they would be far too busy trying to improve their nations "life of misery grubbing in the dirt for food to life" Your arrogance is astounding. For you to say that "our great nation is suffering thanks to the perception of science as being less important than greed", while at the same time suggesting another nations' scientists should come to the USA so as to help its "brain drain" is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Do you even read what you write? Does that not sound like the workings of a greedy mind to you?
Some great scientific achievements have been achieved with minimal resources (remember Einstein anyone?) and for you to belittle and partonise the workings of another nation because you have all the resources and power is shameful. Your nation should contribute towards making their little machine run smoothly, not making them a cog in your enormous one.
Finally, I suggest that the original poster gets linux machines. Anything propiertary software would be a poor choice in a low budget setup. Keep it simple and keep it cheap. It may supposedly not have the support (I would have to disagree, I cope fine as a linux newbie) but it does the job and costs of upkeep are small.
Right, homeward bound.
Re:A better solution (Score:2, Insightful)
It would be really nice if research could be done, freely, across the world. If everyone leapt into America every time they wanted to {start a business|do some research|etc, etc} then America would be:
1. Overcrowded, and
2. Resented by the rest of the world for "stealing" all its talent.
I don't see that Africa is "cut off" from the rest of the world. They have phone lines to send e-mail down, and geographically Africa's a lot nearer to the rest of us in Europe than America is. Or do you think "cut off" simply means "cut off from America"? And anyway, if no-one else biult up their research facilities, that means all research ends up in America anyway, which is a Bad Thing(tm) (see above paragraph).
Personally I'd love to see these people being helped to do what they want, in a country that they feel is home. I sure as hell'd think twice before going to some states in the US if I were black.
Hope that wasn't an anti-American rant. I know my posts usually are...
Re:A better solution (Score:1)
Re:A better solution (Score:1)
There are other countries in the world, and there are people who *like* to live in other countries (yes, believe me, there are people prefer to live in other countries than in the U.S. - aren't them crazy?)...
Besides, science should not and cannot be developed in a single place in the world. Research is much more efficient if distributed around the world, accordingly to the resources found in each site...
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:1, Offtopic)
Frankly, when for-pay software is still cheaper than a few rifles, any third-world arms program isn't going to be hurting. Remember, warlords and tyrants skim the cash first-- and if they can afford to build the stuff, the software costs are negligible.
No, free scientific software really benefits education, schools that can't afford resources.
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:1, Insightful)
A recent survey (essay) in the Nov 10-16 Economist (www.economist.com) discusses the surprising spread of technology into third world contries, and of the benefits to the inhabitants in terms of better diet, better governments, and a longer lifespan.
If we can assist and encourage the scientists and leaders in the third world to improve life in all countries, I think that terrorism will slowly whither away.
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:2)
Like the Unabomber you mean?
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:1)
There is a signifigant difference between a lunatic and a terrorist.
Terrorists are fighting for a cause. They see their acts as strikes against their enemies. Examples of this include the IRA, Timothy McVeigh and Hamas.
The IRA was supported by financial contributions from Catholic Irish in the South and Irish in the United States.
Tim McVeigh did not really have a movement behind him when he bombed Oklahoma City. He thought he did, though.
Hamas (and Osama bin Laden) is a terrorist movement who receives direct support from states like Syria, Iraq, and Iran as well as financial and other support from rich Saudi princes and other oil billionaires.
The Unabomber was a solitary maniac. He was a smart guy with a few screws loose who became totally unhinged when the woman he wanted to marry rejected him. His political agenda didn't develop until much later in his bombing career, and was mostly incoherent. The agenda of Bin Laden or Hamas is very clear and very coherent -- they are organizations at war.
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:1)
I can think of British terrorists, Irish, German, French, Spanish, American, in fact I think you'll find ALL countries have produced one sort of terrorist or another.
Terrorists do not come from uncivilised barbaric nations. Rather they are uncivilised barbaric people. An important difference, and one which we should all remember if the civilised majority, from all countries, is to oversome the terrorists from whatever place.
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:2)
The difference is that Mideast nations are RUN by the uncivilized, barbaric dictators and petty kings.
Western democratic governments are accountable to the will of the people. While organizations like the CIA have supported rotten regimes in Central America and Asia, that support rarely lasts a long time, since administrations and political power shifts every few years.
Do we want advanced scientists working in the US? (Score:1)
Re:Do we want advanced scientists working overseas (Score:2, Troll)
So we will live in perpetual fear of madmen like Bin Laden?
Until we have enlightenment on a global basis, we are all in danger of falling from civilization.
Re:bsd ports (Score:2, Funny)
Let's see, start a download and go to sleep while it finishes, or...
Pay out of your ass (alot more painful for most).
An analogy...
Go to a strip club, and spend tons of money sticking dollars wherever, or...
Rent a Pr0n video, watch it, throw money at the TV, when it's over, pick up the money...
same thing.
Re:bsd ports (Score:1, Interesting)
point is that your correct, in a way... it is MOST easy to do "cd
Re:bsd ports (Score:1)