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Space

ISS Mission STS-100-6A Canadarm2 101

Posted by timothy from the one-giant-leap-for-canadiankind dept.
mitd writes: "ISS Mission STS-100-6A will leave be leaving Thursday carrying the new Canadarm2 and Chris Hadfield who will become the first Canadian to walk in space. Chris gave an interview on CBC radio (MP3) . He talks about the new features of the Canadarm2 including its ability to walk around the ISS and do very delicate work that previously only astronauts could do." And MP3 interviews are a nice idea, too, versus streaming.
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ISS Mission STS-100-6A Canadarm2 More

ISS Mission STS-100-6A Canadarm2

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  • I guess that means you can... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Blame Canada!!!

  • First active telecommunications satellite (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    FYI: Canada had the first fully active (IE: powered by electronics) telecommunications satellite in space. No bouncing signals off of metallicized baloons for us.
  • Actually, Canada's had quite a number of astronauts. This mission just represents the first Canadian to do a spacewalk.
  • Heck, after the Avro Arrow program was cancelled in the late 50's, *legions* of Canadian aerospace engineers joined NASA.

    What was the Avro Arrow? If you have to ask, you're just not Canadian ;) But look it up - it's a fascinating story.

    By the way, a relative of mine lives next to the former chief test pilot of the Arrow. He's quite a guy.
  • You run Oprah? Wow. Isn't that the web browser that has its executable mysteriously grow and shrink seemingly at random?
  • So, as for Canada being a space power? Depends on your definition. [...] So, I would have to say yes, we are a space power of sorts - or at the very least, we *enable* the other space powers.

    Yep. We did one hell of an enabling job for the USA... When Diefenbaker canned the Avro Arrow project back in the 1950's, the scientists and engineers moved south to create the US aerospace industry. See http://web.idirect.com/~ccaft/arrow.html [idirect.com] for a good overview, or http://www.google.com/search?q=canada+avro+arrow [google.com] for FMTYEWTK about the Arrow and the trashing of Canada's aerospace industry.

    Among other things, Canada would have had better fighter jets, nearly a 10-year lead on commercial jet aviation, and a chance at the first reusable spacecraft.... but we stood back and handed it to the USA.
    --
    -dave0

  • It is good to see yet another country puts it's hat in the space arena. I hope to see more countries to contribute to the program. Main reason I do not want to see just the USA and russia out in space I prefer to hope that "The Next Frontier" will an earth venture not just a few countries.
  • I hate to think they represent the masses. Surely they're elected in by a minority. It's one of the drawbacks to our electoral system: if we had vote-offs, the party that most people are willing to settle for would win, instead of the party that the largest block of the minority groups votes for.


    --
  • Actually, I think it's people like Jacque Perizeau, Lucien Bouchard, Bernard Landry, and other Quebecois politicians of their ilk that create conflict. Their outrageous, insulting, stupid, and deceitful comments are shameful. The only times I've become upset enough to feel that Quebec should just fuck off and leave the country, is when those dumbass goons shoot off their mouths.



    --
  • Yeah for Canadia!
  • i am well aware of how wonderful Canada is. I emigrated there from the UK when I was 12 years old. My only point was that Canada has the luck of being able to avoid global responsibilities because its "best friend", often takes care of the dirty work.

    D
  • Unlike one of the commentators on this, I am prepared to be rude.

    Do you know anything about the imperial histories of Sweden, Russia, and the wars in the Baltic that ended around 200 years ago? The idea that imperial powers never create anything is belied by the facts of the cultures and languages that they leave behind, not to mention the legal systems.

    As for Canada, as a fellow Canadian, I never cease to be amazed by the sanctimony of some of my fellow citizens. The US spends more on aid, and takes more refugees and immigrants than most of the developed world combined. It also is exceedingly rich.

    It can afford to "walk and chew gum" at the same time, and anyway, technological investments -- which you seem to take for granted -- have significant downstream benefits.

    I shudder to think where we would all be if the historical "wisdom" of Canadian governments would have determined the fate, for example, of the Internet and other communications and computing technologies.

    D.

  • High Taxes (Score:3)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:12AM (#289231)
    After travelling some of the rest of the world, I don't mind *one bit* the high taxes in Canada. It's worth it for the quality of life. If you don't think so, move on...
    I do disagree with how some of our tax dollars are spent... but that's different.

    And who cares if the PM is French? We don't hire him for his pronunciation. It's people like you who create the conflict between the French/English.

  • You think the Canadarm2 (SSRMS) is impressive?

    The most impressive thing about the new arm is its ability to inchworm across the surface of the station. The station has (will have?) several Power Data Grapple fixtures [mdrobotics.ca] which either end of the arm can attach to. The arm can attach it's free end to one of the fixtures and then that becomes the fixed end, leaving the arm anchored at another location on the station. Repeat, and the thing can cruise over to the other side of the station.

    I'm not sure how this interacts with the hand, though. Maybe the hand is put away somewhere while the arm is moving.

    Greg



  • Dude,

    This is *not* Canada's first man in space.
    Canada has had men and woman going up since the early 80s - Shuttle, Mir etc. Canada contibutes in a small way to the US programs (and Russia's/ESA) and get the occassional lift.

    This is not even this particular guy's first time.

    The story is about the next gen Canadarm. (The coolest thing being it has hands at both ends and no fixed connection so it can move along like an inch worm outside the ISS).

    Canada was the 3rd nation to have a satellite in orbit after the US and the USSR. (Not to orbit one but to own an orbiting satellite).

    If you think Canada can't feel pride from "manly" stuff, look into the history of the Avro Arrow (and then check out how many of those guys went to work on the Apollo program (including some of the guys running the show) when the Arrow was controversially scrapped). People still talk about this endlessly.

    Canada doesn't own much of the sky eh? Well a Canadian company just bought the Iridium network for a song... :-P

    Anyway, whatever, bla bla bla etc. you get the picture.. or something

  • By your definition the US doesn't have a space program because its never done anything 100% on its own.

    Also no European countries are space "powers" since they co-operate in the ESA and don't act "on their own".

  • Look for the filename "ShuttleBudgetCuts". Here's one: http://personalwebs.myriad.net/fmarler/pics/Shuttl eBudgetCuts.jpg [myriad.net]

  • and I wonder, does it have "I am a CANADIAN!" stenciled somewhere on it? (I hope so.)
  • RTLinux is getting there, but the answer is no.
    ------
  • I think you mean Opera [operasoftware.com]. Oprah [oprah.com] is a talk-show host.
    ------
  • Um, I don't think that Marc Garneau made it into space. On Jan. 28th 1984 the Challenger blew up on takeoff. If he was on it then he died before he made it.
  • [ Space ] Posted by wh03v3r on Mon April 16, 12:26 AM
    from the nice, but too bad it isn't mp3 dept.
    pipeb0mb [slashdot.org] writes: "This article [somethingawful.com] details how to build your own space shuttle from Radio Shack [ebay.com] parts, obtain permission to fly it and get many lucrative endorsements [efront.com], all for less than $200 USD! There is also an interview [gotmeat.org] with the creator of this masterful plan (sorry, Windows Media). Already, dozens of universities and non-profit organizations have used this technology for fund raising, research and businesses that help further the space program, and thus humanity as a whole. Cool!" Too bad it's not MP3.
  • I am not sure what defines a spae power but in return for supplying Canadarm Canada receives about 2% of the total access time to the non-russian sections of ISS. Chris Hadfield is a very cool guy. You may remember that he is the dude that took his guitar up to MIR, which I think was alot more interesting than that American women he took her smarties whoops I mean M and M's. The ISS could not be built without the Canadarm. We as typical Canadians quitely create the infrastructure technology that make the big boys look good.
    mitd -- Made in the Dark
  • > The US spends more on aid, and takes more
    > refugees and immigrants than most of the
    > developed world combined.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "most of the developed world combined", but let's browse the CIA World Factbook and concentrate on the G7 countries:

    Economical Aid:
    France: 6.3 billion (1997) - per capita: ~106
    Japan: 9.1 billion (1999) - per capita: ~72
    Germany:5.6 billion (1998) - per capita: ~67
    Canada: 2.1 billion (1997) - per capita: ~67
    UK: 3.4 billion (1997) - per capita: ~57
    USA: 6.1 billion (1997) - per capita: ~22
    Italy: 1.3 billion (1997) - per capita: ~22

    Net Migration Rate:
    Canada: 6.20/1000 (2000 est.)
    Germany:4.01/1000 (2000 est.)
    USA: 3.50/1000 (2000 est.)
    Italy: 1.74/1000 (2000 est.)
    UK: 1.07/1000 (2000 est.)
    France: 0.66/1000 (2000 est.)
    Japan: 0.00/1000 (2000 est.)

  • Well if it's about having the capability to launch your own people into space, then looks like China will be 'space power no.3'. Which will make the American military very happy because it will allow them to justify a lot of daft military spending...Of course with the breakup of the USSR you could say that the Ukraine (Energia) or Kazakhstan (Baikonur complex) are veritable space powers, though they've obviously taken the more pragmatic (sensible?) route of being involved with collaborative projects than sticking their own space ships up there just for the hell of it.

    Will be interesting to see where India is in a couple of years with the new GSLV [spaceflightnow.com] as well...

  • Yeah well his french accent aint that great either!!!

  • Re:QNX (Score:1)

    by UU7 ( 103653 )
    "better free OSs are available" Want to show me a better RTOS ? With as much reliable support ?
  • A roommate of mine, a couple of years back, graduated on writing the training manuals for the robotic arm of the ISS. His description of the controls was that some engineer had just gotten a bucket and turned it upside down over the controlpanel, fitting the buttons where ever they fell.
  • I'm sorry, but how is that a slap in the face to French culture?

    Wiwi
    "I trust in my abilities,
  • for us Canadians, eh? In the past, people made fun of us for our tiny weanises, but now Canada is the first country in space! I mean, the second -- um, er, three, four, five, six -- oh, bloody hell. Well I can say with confidence that we'll get to space before China!

    Whot? When? I don't believe you! Argh, well Canada is still the world leader in man-moose sexual relations, and you can take that to the bank! With maple syrup, eh?

    Anyhoo, we're catching up to you Statesmen right fast! You may have the PenisBird and PenisFish, but beware! for Canada is now armed with the one and only PenisTimothy [geocities.com], running OpenBSD! Eh!

    --

  • Just tell it like it is: Sweden's "space program" involves waiting in line for space (ha ha) in the cargo bays of the spacecraft of more advanced nations.

    --

  • Man-moose is better than father-daughter.
    I guess you should know, having had it both ways.

    --

  • > And incidentally, thanks for noting that it's the Canadarm, not the "Big Arm" as CNN calls it.

    Wow. I didn't believe it until I saw their page [cnn.com] myself. And the quotes they managed to obtain:
    "This is space stuff."
    "It's cutting edge."
    Talk about dumbing down the news.
    --

  • Re:Fair Share (Score:3)

    by FTL ( 112112 ) <slashdot@neil.fras[ ]name ['er.' in gap]> on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:07AM (#289252) Homepage
    > It is good to see yet another country puts it's hat in the space arena.

    FYI: Canada was the third country (after US and USSR) to have a satellite in space. That was back in 1962. More info about Alouette [nmstc.ca].

    Canada and the US have been cooperating with joint ventures ever since. Even the feet of Apollo's Lunar Modules were built in Canada.
    --

  • >does it have "I am a CANADIAN!" stenciled somewhere on it?

    The Canadarms on the shuttles have "Canada" written in large red letters down the side. Fair enough. But what's interesting is that the best views from the shuttles often come from the camera mounted on the elbow of the Canadarm. As a result a large number of lovely NASA pictures have "Canada" written quite prominently in the foreground.

    NASA got really annoyed at this and as a result a huge US flag started appearing on the back wall of the cargo bay on any mission that was planning on using the arm.
    --

  • You think the Canadarm2 (SSRMS) [mdrobotics.ca] is impressive? Wait till you see what will be bolted onto the end of it in a couple of years.

    The CanadaHand (SPDM) [mdrobotics.ca] will have fifteen joints, two hands, stereo vision, and tactile sensors. Once it is installed, there will be very few EVAs on the space station.
    --

  • Again... Chris Hadfield is *not* the first Canadian in space. In fact, *he's* been in space before. The first Canadian in space was Marc Garneau, in 1984...

    The "first" part of this mission is the first Canadian to spacewalk... we've been going up in shuttles a lot longer...

    I wish people would read articles before commenting. I also wish that the average American bothered to learn a little bit about their neighbor to the north...

  • uhhhhh...

    Try 1986... not 84. Marc Garneau did in fact go into space aboard a shuttle - several times. The first of which was in '84... Challenger blew up in '86...

  • Re:Canada a space power? (Score:4)

    by __aaaaxm1522 ( 121860 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:36AM (#289257)
    "Now they're putting a man in orbit"...

    *sigh*

    (insert various comments about how I wish that US citizens knew a bit more about their neighbor to the north...) Now, back to the question: Canada a space power? Well, first off, Chris Hadfield is *not* the first Canadian in space. He will be the first Canadian to make a spacewalk. However, Marc Garneau (who currently heads up the Canadian Space Agency) had the distinction of becoming the first Canadian in space on October 5, 1984. For more information about Canadians in space, you can take a peek at: Canadian Astronaut Missions [space.gc.ca]

    Here's the Main CSA page [space.gc.ca]

    Canada, being a relatively small country population-wise (approximately 31,000,000, although geographically we are the 2nd largest country in the world) doesn't have the resources to maintain a full space program like the US. What we *are* good at is providing infrastructure - the Canadarm (shuttle and ISS), communications hardware (we've become quite good at telecom over the years, due to the geography of the country), manpower and technology. This arrangement works well, as it complements the US launch systems...

    So, as for Canada being a space power? Depends on your definition. We definitely have had multiple people in space (11 missions so far), we've got experience with space and space-systems... building the necessary hardware, and we've providing a great deal of that hardware to the US and other country's programs. Many of the comm satellites out there have Canadian tech in them. So, I would have to say yes, we are a space power of sorts - or at the very least, we *enable* the other space powers.

    (as for not owning much of the sky - see the part above about comm sats and enabling technologies!)

  • Radio Amateurs are able to use the ISS' packet-radio digipeater

    (Uplink 145.99, Downlink 145.8 MHz)

    ...by sending "CQ v NOCALL" - when ISS is overhead - while listening on the downlink for other stations.

  • Right next to the phrase "Eh, dude!"
    • If you say "yes" when did they become a space power?
    Well, they've already won the "arms" race....
  • It's nice to see that despite all of the funding cuts we've had here in Canada, we are still able to contribute a significant piece of technology to the international space station. And incidentally, thanks for noting that it's the Canadarm, not the "Big Arm" as CNN calls it.
  • Or is it copyrighted and you're not allowed to download it without payint RIAA a gizillion dollars of which the astronaut gets $1.98(CAN)

    DanH
    Cav Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]
  • they don't have any stats on the penis-looking thing. that guy puts me to shame.
    and just what is its purpose? to make sure female astronauts don't get too crabby?
  • Why has this been given a troll rating? I find it disappointing when people mod down posts just because they don't agree with their point of view.

    Personally, I'm a very active advocate of space exploration and I don't agree with all the points he is saying - but that's subjective. This guy hasn't said anything blatantly false, he hasn't offended anyone and he makes his case well.

    For the record, I think that Canada could have done a lot worse than develop the Canadarm, which actually does something useful. And I think that space exploration always seems to take the rap for spending money 'that could be used for better things like medical research, reducing poverty, etc etc', since the argument never seems to extend to other areas of science or indeed some of our own wasteful practices. In other words, it's always someone else's fault that the world is the way it is (or another city, another political party or another country).
  • Realaudio == crap wma == crap mp3 == better can't wait until GBPS is common place.
  • Well, actually the internet has always thrived in Canada, as well, we have not been subject to most of the legal messiness of the Internet in U.S. (no UCITA, no DMCA, internet patents harder to get)
  • Oh yeah, and we have the cheapest internet accsee in the world.

  • Re:Yay for Canada... (Score:3)

    by Alien54 ( 180860 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:25AM (#289268) Journal
    What's interesting is that the best views from the shuttles often come from the camera mounted on the elbow of the Canadarm. As a result a large number of lovely NASA pictures have "Canada" written quite prominently in the foreground. NASA got really annoyed at this and as a result a huge US flag started appearing on the back wall of the cargo bay on any mission that was planning on using the arm.

    Thank God we didn't go with corporate sponsorship.

    There was an interesting satirical "photo" of what could have happened. It showed the space shuttle completely plastered and painted out in corporate logos and color schemes. For example, one of the rocket boosters painted out to resemble an energizer battery. (I can't find it right now to link to it, but I have it tacked to my office wall.)

    So it could be much much worse ;-)

    Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

  • so much is said about the american space program, and how they gloriously and righteously ( *cough, cough*) bested the russians in the 60's etc. etc.

    You're quite right. It's also worth mentioning that Russia/USSR must be credited with probably the longest and most notable string of firsts in space:

    • First artificial satellite
    • First animal in space
    • First human being in space
    • First woman in space
    • First probe to approach the moon
    • First probe to land on the moon
    • First probe to land on a different planet
    • First permanent space station
    • Longest manned spaceflight

    --

  • Meanwhile, we're expected to be the policemen, firefighters, and EMTs of the world

    WOWOW Wait just a moment - DONT EVERY CONFUSE THE PURPOSE AND ACTIONS of the US MILITARY. You are not "expected" to be these things (and your frantly not), but you tell yourselves this is the motivation (it is not). The US Military is an imperialist force operating on behalf of the Plutocrats who run Washington.

    Trust me when I tell you that the rest of the world is MUCH happier when the US military stays home. You seem to be buying into the Propaganda that tells you how noble and altruistic your military actions are... you'd be very VERY wrong.

  • Make no mistake Canadian Nationalism does exist, but it is mostly a defense mechanism against the "American Ego".

    Canada is not a 'melting pot' but a 'Mosaic' of i18n culture - Canada ends up being a country of "International Citizens", and we like that very much, but like the rest of the world we too dispise USofAmerican policy/politics/culture for their hubris, imperialism and 'capitalist crusades' and other obvious faults, so you'll find that a Canadian's 'nationalism' is mostly an effort to display disgust at USians... its realy very weird... but it works.

    A common joke in Canada is something like: "Q) what is Canada's most common national trait? A) Were not fucking Americans!" That may not be it exactly, but i think that it conveys the idea.

  • firstly canadians just don't have any nationalist sentiments, or very little. Hell most of us don't even know what it is we identify with as a country

    Dude, which Canada are you from? Every time I've been there (mostly to Southern Ontario and the Toronto area), I've been stunned by how many Canadians fly flags and do other patriotic stuff as compared to Americans. At concerts by Canadian bands in the states, there are always Canadians in the crowd waving the flag around. And let's not forget Molson's "I am Canadian" ad campaign. So am I mistaken, or have I just seen a different part of Canada than the one you're from?

  • The US spends more on aid, and takes more refugees and immigrants than most of the developed world combined. It also is exceedingly rich.

    Exceedingly rich ? hell yes. Why ? Because it's scroogey! Just browse through any economical dissertation about US vs Canada, and you'll find everywhere that USians are jealous of our health system. Nowhere else in the world can you just pop in a common hospital and receive treatment without even putting forth a penny. Sure, we all end up paying for it in our taxes, but it ensures that all are treated according to their needs, not their wallets. Above all, Canada caters to humanity, not economy (obviously : we're in the red).

    We have "safety laws", such as being obligated to insure any motor vehicle before putting it on the road. No matter who rear-ends you in the traffic, be it a BMW yuppie or a smelly loser in a beat-up chevy, you've got the peace of mind that his insurance will pay your repairs. Sure, we all hate being forced into it, but we sure are grateful when we reap the benefits.

    Now to get back to my original intention, which is to blast the redneck out of you. Canada is the most immigrant-friendly country, period. We have the highest immigration rate per capita, and to complement that, the lowest number of hate-related and race-related crimes in north america. The numbers speak for themselves, but so do the people. Working with the Passport Office, I think my claims have credible foundations.

    Yeah we even take Americans. Go ahead, try and beat that.

  • Seriously: now they're putting a man in orbit, does this mean that Canada is a "space power" along with the US and Russia? Canada's not exactly as aggressive as either of them, and certainly doesn't equate it's national pride with such "manly" things like nukes and tanks. Personally, I'm sure Canada doesn't care what we think, but this is certainly a big event in my perception of them. Right now I'd say "no" just because Canada doesn't really own much of the sky, but I know very little and would like the opions & insights of those with more knowledge on the subject.

    If you say "yes" when did they become a space power?

    If you say "no" what does it take for them to become a space power?

    Kurdt
  • >>The nordic nations, the Netherlands and Finland, in particular, have the best human rights and social development records on earth
    >>
    They do? The only Finnish person I have ever met was incredibly racist and bigotted. He essentially told me that, as a non-white person, I was not welcome in his country. I would not normally stereotype on a statistical sample of 1, except that this guy was a Finnish diplomat.

    Since he's the only Finnish person I have ever met, I've been wondering about Finland ever since.

  • Surely it must use StrongArm chips...
  • The CBC ran a contest to come up with a canadian version of the expression "as american as apple pie". People had to phone in with suggestions for "as canadian as ...".

    The handsdown winner was:
    "As Canadian as possible under the circumstances"
  • "My argument isn't economic. It's human. [...]"

    But you're using an economic scale of measurement to judge what is and is not "human" worth. Thinking in this way is exactly ( IMHO ) what makes for a world of economic disparity. There is more to the value and worth of human life than can be judged merely by economics. And creating an economic measuring stick brings all human life down to its most trivial and base level.

    However, I don't think I can disagree with you that the amounts of money spent on the space program could have been used to feed and help people. This is perfectly true - it could have, just as in theory all the money which US citizens spend on coca-cola and pepsi in one week could feed all the malnurished poor children in america for a year. If only people would spend there money differently - if only these companies were more generous, if only, if only.

    But your argument belies two important things:

    1. As somebody else mentioned: Canada and the US spend much more every year both internally and internationally on humanitarian aid of various kinds. I somehow doubt that this difference would make the problems of world hunger, disease etc. disappear.
    2. If we stop funding long term R&D in favour of short-term humanitarian aid, we are abondoning a valuable and important avenue of increasing the standards of living across the board for all humans in the future. And we'd be doing it because of our 'conscience' - and that's because of emotional value. The ONLY thing in history which has ever yielded lasting improvements in the standards of living has been new technology. Fire, the Wheel, Agriculture, Irrigation, Public Sewage and Plumbing, electricity, etc. The list goes on and on. This is the only historically proven way to create lasting change in our overall quality of life. Abandoning this in the name of humanitarian purposes would be quite literally cutting off our nose to spite our face.
    3. Its a very short-term kind of ethical system you're looking at were immediate use of dollars yields what immediate gains. I call that a very narrowly scoped ethical system. There are long-term benefits that can't be accounted for in dollars and cents terms because we have no way of tracking their returns over such long periods. Saying that we should therefore abandon these methods because of our own ignorance is a very poor policy.

  • Re:Fair Share (Score:3)

    by corvi42 ( 235814 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:14AM (#289279) Homepage Journal
    While I agree with you that it is a very good thing that the international community is working more together on space projects, I think you might want to do some research on the history of space exploration. It's sad that in the US so much is said about the american space program, and how they gloriously and righteously ( *cough, cough*) bested the russians in the 60's etc. etc. but little or nothing is ever mentioned about other countries. It comes down to a lack of education.

    But in reality many many countries have been involved in space exploration and development for decades. Granted none have done as much as either the US or Russia, but they have been playing lots of important rolls. Canada has been contributing to NASA for decades - including the original Canadarm and many astronauts. Europe has had a joint space agency since the 60's - both China and Japan have their own space agencies and they launch satellites quite frequently.

  • Re:Yay for Canada... (Score:4)

    by corvi42 ( 235814 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @03:57AM (#289280) Homepage Journal
    I want to see the canadarm opening a can of Molsons. =)

  • Re:Canadiana in space? (Score:4)

    by corvi42 ( 235814 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:30AM (#289281) Homepage Journal
    Yes, I'm from Toronto area.
    I think there's definitely a sense in Canada that people want to make their identity known, perhaps because we feel like we all to easily get confused with americans. As a canadian living in europe I can tell you that happens quite a lot.

    There's quite a difference I think between the urge to have a common identity, and actually having a common identity. This is maybe something that isn't apparent to an outsider, but canada is very fratured regionally - and most areas of canada have much more contact with the americans south of the border than we do with canadians from other regions. Also given that so much of our culture is shared with the US and is indistinguishable for the most part, there is a sense throughout the country that there is a void in terms of national identity in Canada - particularly felt whenever we deal with the whole issue of Quebec wanting to seperate.

    There is also the notion ( perhaps its only a myth ?!? ) that canadians are modest, reserved and particularly non-nationalistic ( nationalism here being different from patriotism ).

    So in the end all the flag waving mania - which I totally agree with, it does exist, but I think its more an attempt to fill that void, rather than an expression of a real heartfelt sentiment.

    As for those Molson's ads go - I think those are largely a parody of all the above stuff. The whole thing of Joe ranting on and on about how he is different from americans is particularly clear that its a parody of that feeling of getting confused with americans so easily. Maybe its this kind of inside-joke that unites canadians more than anything else.

  • Re:Canadiana in space? (Score:5)

    by corvi42 ( 235814 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @03:53AM (#289282) Homepage Journal
    "often simply because it doesn't have the means to create them"

    I'm sorry buddy, but that's just crap. If we canadians felt like building some great nationilstic ventures, we would, cost doesn't even venture into it. How many nations of 30 million people have G7 status eh? Us and Australia that's who - and there are scads of countries with way more people who can't claim that. We have definitely got the money to burn on meaningless nationalism if we wanted. The reason we don't do it is two-fold: firstly canadians just don't have any nationalist sentiments, or very little. Hell most of us don't even know what it is we identify with as a country. Secondly the business and political culture of our country is so tight-assed and conservative that they refuse to invest in anything canadian for fear that it will flop, despite the overwhelming evidence that as such a small nation we have an insane overabundance of intelligent, talented and creative people.

    "I would like to keep it that way. Armstrong's lunar vacation didn't do anything for the human race (after all, the Russians had already had a successful moon landing with the Luna-9 well ahead of his arrival)"

    Yes, the russians did put plenty of unmanned landers on the moon - the key word here being 'unmanned'. NASA also sent lots of unmanned orbiters and landers on the moon before Armstrong and company went. There is a huge difference in sending a robot out into space and sending people - the requirements for sending human life into the emptiness of space is much much more demanding.

    I think trying to measure achievements of this kind in terms of dollars & cents returns or immediate gratification to the masses is a very small-minded and limited way to look, and typical of the canadian business culture I mentioned above. The achievements of NASA in the last half century are certainly some of the most important feats humanity has ever accomplished. Putting human beings not only outside of the thin tiny little biosphere in which we evolved, but fully onto another celestial body ranks up there with the discovery of fire and the wheel as some of the most significant events in our evolution. I don't know if you've ever been to see any of the NASA stuff at Cape Canaveral or not - but I definitely have the sense that it is a place that will rank up their with the pyramids of Giza or the Great Wall of China thousands of years from now as one of the most important human landmarks. Don't belittle the great achievements of the species with petty economical arguments - that is an insult not only to the people who achieved true lasting greatness but an insult to humanity in general.

    "The nordic nations, the Netherlands and Finland, in particular, have the best human rights and social development records on earth and they've never engaged in the kind of nationalistic nonsense from which the space race has proceeded (the Swedes have a space program, mind you). Canada (and the United States) should aspire to such progressiveness."

    And for your information, all the countries you mentioned DO participate in the European Space Agency, which is actively involved in building large portions of the International Space Station, as well as numerous other projects. Taken from slide 2 of ESA's website presentation ( http://www.esa.int/presentation/ [esa.int] ):

    ESA has 15 member States :

    Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Norway, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.

    Canada takes part in some projects under a cooperation agreement.


  • or as one might say, better than nothing. ;)

    (reminds me of the nz nationalists [national.org.nz] getting re-elected three times, or the uk conservatives' slogan one campaign that went something like go with the devil you know - wasn't there a song by that name? it's eluding me right now.)

  • but hundreds of millions of dollars sent to save Afghan refugees would only end up in the hands of the Taliban, and whats left would have to pass officials meaning it would not go to those who need it most.

    The money is not being wasted in space, many technological advances you take for granted in your daily life came from space programs. Some of the descendant technologies save more lives than if the cost of this arm was used for "general purpose aid"

    People have to stop looking with simplistic attitudes on expenses related to science and space. While space telescopes and planetary probes don't look as it they provide us with truly needed information realize that they give us a better understanding of our universe, and from there we may begin to understand prinicples on physics and science we could not fully fathom here.

    Don't decry the money spent on this arm, decry the millions your government and mine waste on pork-barrel politics, propping up businesses with tax breaks, and generally flush down the drain enslaving millions of their own citizens with welfare.

    As for the apirations of some other countries, the US spends more money on aid outside its borders than it does in trinkets in space. I would bet Canada in a similar boat.

  • Yes indeed Sweden has a space program. We don't have the capacity to launch our own satellites though, we let ESA or Russia do that. But Sweden is now constructing a lunar space craft that will use an ion drive. To be a small country as it is, I am still impressed and proud of what we can do.
  • Yeah you could put it that way if you like. But since we're a member of ESA, we can use the Ariane rockets for example. Some of the components are built by some of our companies, and I have no doubt in my mind that we can construct and build our own rockets. I believe it is to us only a matter of money, as always.
  • I don't think we use NASAs technology in the sense that we sort of buy their technology and use it for our purposes. We are not waiting for NASA to come up with something so that we can use it. We're not using your rockets or satellites and call them ours. Everyone gets ideas from others inventions, and how much Swedens space technology is inspired by NASA, I have no idea. And didn't USA get a lot of help from german scientists when it comes to rocket technology after the WW2? But yes, I do agree that USA and Russia (Soviet) did almost all the work in the beginning of the space age, but other countries have followed with spacecrafts more or less developed by themselves. So yes Sweden do have a space program, we construct our own satellites though sometimes in cooperation with other countries.
  • Yeah, it IS pretty cool... though by far not as impressive as USAs space program. But the comparison that you made is not bad.
  • The whole RadarSat-2 spat hadn't registered at all with me at the time, but your comment prompted me to hit Google and find the following, which seems to be the latest word on the topic: http://www.spaceviews.com/2000/06/29a.html [spaceviews.com]. Seems like our (Canadian) government has contracted an Italian launching agency (having its own trouble with U.S. export restrictions, incidentally) to conduct the launch since NASA backed out. Good thing we have lots of friends...
  • The not being able to speak is a good thing in todays political areana. Now Jean Cretian can talk to Bush all day long, and never say anything. This means no promises, and if we here one, like Jean's scrapping the GST, he can simply say we misunderstud him. Next time i say we vote for an illerterate blind man, or maby a cat and see if Canada is run any differently, maby the cat won't ignore or rights and pepper spay and tear gas innocent people.
  • We get more and more funding cuts, but our taxes seem to get higher and higher. I guess that's our fault for electing liberal scum as our Prime Minister. And if that isn't bad enough, he's French. We might as well have elected a cactus into office. Lord knows the cactus would at least be able to pronounce "new features"(don't ask) without managing to insult the entire Eastern coast. ;p~

    "The good thing about Alzheimer's is that you can hide your own Easter eggs."

  • Stop it, I'm gonna cry.


  • After skimming each post here, I have to thank all you Americans for your comments about the Canadian Space effort with NASA. We, of course, leave our igloos to wave at the Space Station each time it orbits above Uranus.
    ______
    jeff13


  • Maybe he just got there the hard way !

    Kidding...
    ______
    jeff13

  • Hey, look above this post... an Alliance Party Troll !!!

    ROTFL !
    ______
    jeff13
  • He's a distant cousin of mine! Yay! We had a big family reunion last year and he came, and one of the little cousins was heard asking him very seriously "did you drive the shuttle here?"

    Hehehe

    (Bypass the traffic, but the parking's a killer)

    ...Pentapod

  • Perhaps I should make it 2. Or 1 even.
  • It is good to see yet another country puts it's hat in the space arena. I agree. Only high populous countries with more money then they know what to do with have the resources can have a sucessful continuous space program.

    I hope to see more countries to contribute to the program. Some countries I do not wish to see participate in the space program, especially ones with large amounts of religious fanatics who like to terrorize other nations people(you'll find this almost anywhere, some just more often.)

    Main reason I do not want to see just the USA and russia out in space I prefer to hope that "The Next Frontier" will an earth venture not just a few countries. Agree here too. We have another planet, besides Mars, and start colonizing it, we don't want any single one country colonizing. For when others start colonizing it, their will massive amounts of tension floating which will indefinitely lead to War. If we have several countries colonizing it at one time, the melting pot effect might more rapidly occur and decrease tension.

    -----
  • It doesn't do it on my version of netscape(4.75) or Oprah. If its Internet Explorer, here is the best way I found to fix it.

    edit system.ini
    change shell=explorer.exe to shell=c:\windows\progman.exe

    alt-file-run c:\command.com
    cd\progra~1
    deltree internet_explorer
    exit
    Now you can get a clean install of internet explorer without reinstalling windows(if you can find the copy on your windows cd)

    It doesn't do it on my computer so I figure it is your computer/install of your browser.
    -----
  • You know, 9 of 10 /.ers don't care if something is offtopic, as long as someone cares and wants to argue it.
    -----
  • Yes, that is what I mean. Slashdot needs a logic check. Let's put that on the bottom of the list of future "useful" features.
    -----
  • I'm a Canadian who just spent the weekend in Washington DC. I have to say, it's a beautiful city. Certainly more architecturally beautiful than anything Canada has to offer. However, when I consider the expense and manpower required to erect these great huge glorious pieces of nationalist symbology, I have to wonder what the point of it all is, in the long run. Canada has, more often than not, shunned meaningless nationalist ventures (often simply because it doesn't have the means to create them). I would like to keep it that way. Armstrong's lunar vacation didn't do anything for the human race (after all, the Russians had already had a successful moon landing with the Luna-9 well ahead of his arrival). It just fed the national imperialist urge to expand territories and claim foreign lands (in this case, an asteroid). I will be very dissappointed if Canada joins the field of space exploration in this way, in order to get a Canadian flag on the international space station. Hundreds of millions of dollars that could easily be saving the lives of, for example, thousands of Afghan refugees is, disturbingly, being put towards this hubristic interest in extraterrestrial phenomena which are, for the most part, only of scholarly interest, not of any sort of immediate human necessity. As interesting as Astronomy and the cosmogonies it develops are, Canada should be saving lives with funding for cancer and AIDS treatment programs before it looks to the stars.

    The nordic nations, the Netherlands and Finland, in particular, have the best human rights and social development records on earth and they've never engaged in the kind of nationalistic nonsense from which the space race has proceeded (the Swedes have a space program, mind you). Canada (and the United States) should aspire to such progressiveness.

  • Racism. This is definitely a problem. However, the World Human Rights Guide, in 1991 (I lack a more up-to-date source on this), named Finland the most advanced nation, in terms of "civil and political rights", on earth. Their list goes like this:

    1. Finland 99%

    2. Aotearoa/NZ 98%

    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Denmark 98%

    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Germany 98%

    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Netherlands 98%

    6. Czechoslovakia 97%

    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Hungary 97%

    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Norway 97%

    9. Belgium 96%

    &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Switzerland 96%

    (12. Canada 94%; 15. UK 93%; 17. Australia 91%; 18. US 90%.)

    (remember, this is civil and political rights, not technological or economic development)

  • Re:Troll of the month (Score:3)

    by screwballicus ( 313964 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @12:45PM (#289304)

    -Says Russia got to the moon first

    You're right. I do. So does anybody else who didn't get their history of lunar exploration off of commemorative postage stamps. I apologise for disseminating fact where it may be found to conflict with American nationalist propaganda. Should you, however, wish to endanger your grip on nationalist myth with historical matter of fact some time, you can go to Britannica's article on it [britannica.com] or any other site which will tell you that, as I said, the Luna 9 lander was the first achieve a successful moon-landing. To quote Britannica

    Luna 2 (launched Sept. 12, 1959) was the first spacecraft to strike the Moon, and Luna 3 (Oct. 4, 1959) made the first circumnavigation of the Moon and returned the first photographs of its far side. Luna 9 (Jan. 31, 1966) made the first successful lunar soft landing. Luna 16 (Sept. 12, 1970) was the first unmanned spacecraft to carry lunar soil samples back to Earth. Thank you.

    -Says landing on the moon was a waste anyway

    What, exactly, is wrong with saying that the landing was a waste? The landing, in and of itself, was utterly pointless, I maintain. The research involved was valuable, but that could have been done, regardless, for a fraction of the cost. The remaining cash was spent on hubris.

    -Says "architecture" in Washington, D.C. is "nationalist" (Hope he's not talking about the Vietnam War Memorial or Tomb of the Unknowns, he'll be stoking up some angry vets).

    What purpose does the Washington Monument serve for humanity? It's not even the world's largest phallic symbol (that would be the CN Tower in Toronto). The same goes for the rows upon rows of Corinthian columns that line Washington streets. They're quite pretty, but that's all they are...I'm getting into a debate about aesthetics here, so I'll stop.

    -Says the US should be less "nationalist". Meanwhile, we're expected to be the policemen, firefighters, and EMTs of the world. You can't do that without being a world power.

    Why does a world power have to be nationalist? Furthermore, why does a policeman of neighbouring regions have to be a world power? Nigeria and South Africa do more for peace in Africa than the US ever will. They are hardly world powers. Finally, the US presence in many of these "police actions" has hardly been met warmly by the world. The 1954 Guatemalan police actions stands as one of the great tragedies of modern Latin American history. I'm not singling the US out, however. As a Canadian, I believe Canadians, too, should be far less nationalistic (especially the French, who verge on Soviet-style cultural nationalism). Canadian participation in the NATO bombing of Serbia (as a result of reports of genocide which were almost completely false) is something I'm not at all proud of.

  • Re:Canadiana in space? (Score:3)

    by screwballicus ( 313964 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @04:57PM (#289305)
    Sure. You're right. Any nation of Canada's size (economically) would have the means to conduct something like NASA's space program. That, however, would have involved starving our poor and letting medicare and education go to waste. So far, only the USSR has had the guts to do that (although China is considering jumping on the bandwagon). Canada could have sent a lander to the moon, like the USSR, but, because we cared about the other things in our budget, we didn't.

    Don't belittle the great achievements of the species with petty economical arguments

    My argument isn't economic. It's human. It is that, while putting money into the space program equates to great achievements for certain members of the species, it consumes funds which might be directed at the mere survival of others. I totally understand your perspective here. I place emotional value on human milestones too. Nevertheless, I can't seem to come up with any sort of ethical system which allows me to consider expenditures on these milestones as superior to expenditures on simple human needs (feeding and developing the third world). The pyramids were a great human milestone, but they were dependent on horribly mistreated, starved slaves for their construction. I can't see a milestone as an end in itself if its cost is human well-being (which NASA's and the Canadarm's funding could have gone to).

  • Canada's already had a woman in space too. Ever hear of Roberta Bondar?

    Anyway, having a man on the shuttle isn't so much of an issue. It's the first Canadian to be up working with the ISS, that's for sure. Canada's been involved with the space program for decades.

  • QNX (Score:3)

    by popeyethesailor ( 325796 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @01:18AM (#289307)
    Did anyone know that it has QNX in it? Cool.. [qnx.com]
  • You mean 1986.
  • You say George II, and I think King George II and think that you might have some interesting/humorous American Revolution jokes or Canada-bashing, but NOOOoooo...
  • "I have to say, it's a beautiful city. Certainly more architecturally beautiful than anything Canada has to offer"

    Having been born and raised in Maryland, I'd have to say that you either didn't wander ten feet off of Pennsylvania Avenue, or (more likely) you're full of crap.

    "often simply because it doesn't have the means to create them"

    Then what does India have that Canada doesn't? A few more hundreds of millions of poor people? Two nuclear rivals across their borders?

    I'm sorry, all Canada would need to build their own successful space launch facilities would be a little land further south, either from another Commonwealth country, or another NAFTA member.

    Though they can probably do better, Canada is doing extremely well in the realm of space exploration, especially considering the fact that they don't have their own space launch facilities (like the ESA, Japan, China, India...).

    If anybody should be ashamed of their space program, it should be the EU. I'm sorry, but any organization that has the GDPs of the UK, France, and Germany under their belt should be able to beat the Chinese to orbit. If they can afford to compete with the US in the defense industry (France being the #1 exporter of weapons and all, and also the only other country to operate nuclear supercarriers), then they should think about spending a little more on space exploration.

    "I would like to keep it that way. Armstrong's lunar vacation didn't do anything for the human race "

    Technology capable of allowing a human being to survive (if not thrive) in space or on a different world is as signifigant a technological advancement as fire or clothing. It is the ability to survive. It isn't a matter of money, but a matter of evolution.

    "Hundreds of millions of dollars that could easily be saving the lives of"

    And exploring and developing space doesn't save lives? One-half of every human being that has ever lived is alive today. There are 6 billion people living on the Earth today, and that number continues to grow exponentially. The size of the human population is the main cause of ecological damage to the Earth hands down. If we end the 21st century without permanent extraterrestrial settlements, there will be three (and only three) solutions to get the world's population down to a reasonable number:

    1.) World War III

    2.) Systematic genocide
    3.) Worldwide disease/famine
    Waiting until the problem is upon us before spending money on a solution is not a reasonable or realistic solution. Compare the global population of 1961 to today, and keep in mind that it has taken us that long to get around to the ISS.

    Not to mention, Earth is due to get smacked again by Flaming Kinetic Death (TM) any time now, be it asteroid, comet, or that gigantic volcano under Yellowstone. Focusing the world's resources into trying to emulate Scandinavia won't stop that. SAAB planes, Volvo cars, Nokia cell phones... If we're susceptible to the same fate as the dinosaurs, how can we really claim to be more advanced? We won't even be a footnote in galactic history because there'll be nobody left to take note of us.

    If "nationalistic nonsense" is what is required to save us as a species, then so be it. Those of you who would rather remain Earth-bound can take solace that you'll be remembered in the history books of those of us that have moved on. Or wake up in a cold sweat as you realize that our version of history will be all that survives, depending on your personal outlook...

  • A lot of people seem to be confused... (Score:5)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Monday April 16, 2001 @09:11AM (#289311)
    1.) This will be the first time Canada has had an astronaut spacewalk. This will NOT be the first Canadian in space. Marc Garneau appears to be the first Canadian in space, having flown aboard Challenger in 1984.

    2.) This is not the first time a non-American has flown aboard the shuttle. See above point.

    3.) This is not the first time a non-American or non-Soviet/Russian has performed a spacewalk. I'm not sure about earlier examples, but Thomas Reiter (German/ESA) performed a spacewalk outside of Mir in late 1995.

    3.) Canada is not the only country to hitch a ride on the shuttle. Cosmonauts have flown aboard the shuttle (Sergei Krikalev, 1994), ESA representatives (Ulf Merbold, 1983), and even Mexico has hitched a ride (Neri Vela, 1985).

    4.) Canada is #3 as far as putting people into space (behind Russia/CIS and the USA, obviously). All this means is that their total of 8 astronauts edges out Japan's 5. France and Germany seem to be tied for fifth with 4 each (the ESA has 11 total). To put this into perspective, as of 31 October 2000, there have been 397 people in orbit.

    So yes, this is the first time that there'll be a spacesuit with a Canadian flag on the shoulder, and yes, this will install the latest and greatest Canadarm (complete with Slinky-like motion), but that's where the historical signifigance ends. I'm not trying to downplay the moment for the Canadians, I'm just trying to set the record straight. Some of the posts here seem to suggest that Canada will beat out China as the third space-faring nation.

  • I assume you meant here [holloway.co.nz], buddy!
  • Well Fiji has a little way to go yet with their coconut rocket. The natives trying to claim their rocket back from the people who made it was topped only by the exchange of 'monkey man' huewson for a larger gorilla with a cache of kalashninovs. Their campaign's forgetable slogan "we'll get into space soon, just come visit!" fooled no one.
  • I'm sorry that I'm ignorant to what Canada is currently capable of doing space-wise.

    However, as far as I'm concerned, to be a 'space-power' they should be able to reliably send themselves and objects into space.

    From the looks of the article mentioned, they can't because they are relying on US technology to get themselves there. To be honest, I don't see why it's a big accomplishment for the first Candidian in space(sure, it's cool), but I think the first based on their technology is much more important.

    blizzardx

  • Understandably, one can look at NASA's failures and claim that the money would be better spent. So, I have a few points.

    If you look at the missions NASA is doing lately they aren't nationalistic; they're scientific in nature.

    What if we found a cure for AIDS or Cancer on the ISS? And if we hadn't been doing this we wouldn't have discovered it.

    Lastly, the comment about misuse of funding highlights a flaw in the system itself. The point should be not that we are spending too much on space, but not enough on other projects. Espicially here in the US, we could afford to spend a lot less on something like the military and more on NASA and medical research. I think both have long-term benefits for humanity. And if you look at our environmental record, we might want to find another planet =p.

    blizzardx

  • Not to be rude, but how does Sweden have a space program? It's easy enough when given the technology and space in a cargo bay, but compare it to the US or Russian program both of which spent years developing the technology. I don't care that Sweden is using NASA's technology, but I hardly see how it qualifies as a space program.

    Blizzardx
  • I'm not saying you're buying our technology, but you're sending your satellites in our rockets. I fail to see how that constitutes as a space program.
  • Canada was the third nation to get anything into space, with a satellite to measure the magnetosphere in the early 60's. While relying on the US for launch services, Canada launched the world's first geo-synch. communications satellite, and few years later the first digital comm. satellite. In the last few years, the us of US launchers has become quite questionable, given the RADARSAT II debacle. Seems the US didn't want a commercial satellite of such quality in orbit for military reasons. So the US basically refused to launch it. Nice one... I think that lasted a couple of years. I cannot find any references to the difficulties, so I guess it goes under the heading of men in black Xfiles stuff.

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