Astronomers Use Black Holes to Pinpoint Earth's Location. But are Phones and Wifi Blocking the View? (space.com) 43
Measuring earth's position (or "geodesy") requires using telescopes that track radiation from distant black holes. Their signals "pass cleanly through the atmosphere and we can receive them during day and night and in all weather conditions," writes a senior scientist at the University of Tasmania.
But there's a problem... Radio waves are also used for communication on Earth — including things such as wifi and mobile phones... [A] few narrow lanes are reserved for radio astronomy. However, in previous decades the radio highway had relatively little traffic. Scientists commonly strayed from the radio astronomy lanes to receive the black hole signals. To reach the very high precision needed for modern technology, geodesy today relies on more than just the lanes exclusively reserved for astronomy.
In recent years, human-made electromagnetic pollution has vastly increased. When wifi and mobile phone services emerged, scientists reacted by moving to higher frequencies. However, they are running out of lanes. Six generations of mobile phone services (each occupying a new lane) are crowding the spectrum... Today, the multitude of signals are often too strong for geodetic observatories to see through them to the very weak signals emitted by black holes. This puts many satellite services at risk.
To keep working into the future — to maintain the services on which we all depend — geodesy needs some more lanes on the radio highway. When the spectrum is divided up via international treaties at world radio conferences, geodesists need a seat at the table. Other potential fixes might include radio quiet zones around our essential radio telescopes. Work is also underway with satellite providers to avoid pointing radio emissions directly at radio telescopes. Any solution has to be global. For our geodetic measurements, we link radio telescopes together from all over the world, allowing us to mimic a telescope the size of Earth. The radio spectrum is primarily regulated by each nation individually, making this a huge challenge.
But perhaps the first step is increasing awareness. If we want satellite navigation to work, our supermarkets to be stocked and our online money transfers arriving safely, we need to make sure we have a clear view of those black holes in distant galaxies — and that means clearing up the radio highway.
But there's a problem... Radio waves are also used for communication on Earth — including things such as wifi and mobile phones... [A] few narrow lanes are reserved for radio astronomy. However, in previous decades the radio highway had relatively little traffic. Scientists commonly strayed from the radio astronomy lanes to receive the black hole signals. To reach the very high precision needed for modern technology, geodesy today relies on more than just the lanes exclusively reserved for astronomy.
In recent years, human-made electromagnetic pollution has vastly increased. When wifi and mobile phone services emerged, scientists reacted by moving to higher frequencies. However, they are running out of lanes. Six generations of mobile phone services (each occupying a new lane) are crowding the spectrum... Today, the multitude of signals are often too strong for geodetic observatories to see through them to the very weak signals emitted by black holes. This puts many satellite services at risk.
To keep working into the future — to maintain the services on which we all depend — geodesy needs some more lanes on the radio highway. When the spectrum is divided up via international treaties at world radio conferences, geodesists need a seat at the table. Other potential fixes might include radio quiet zones around our essential radio telescopes. Work is also underway with satellite providers to avoid pointing radio emissions directly at radio telescopes. Any solution has to be global. For our geodetic measurements, we link radio telescopes together from all over the world, allowing us to mimic a telescope the size of Earth. The radio spectrum is primarily regulated by each nation individually, making this a huge challenge.
But perhaps the first step is increasing awareness. If we want satellite navigation to work, our supermarkets to be stocked and our online money transfers arriving safely, we need to make sure we have a clear view of those black holes in distant galaxies — and that means clearing up the radio highway.
Shhhhh (Score:1)
Radio silence please so we can spy on some black hoes.
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perv
Somehow... (Score:2)
I don't see this happening.
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If there's a compelling need to allocate spectrum for astroradiology, there are mechanisms for this. The post cloyingly and insanely believes their need is compelling over all of the other allocations already made.
There's a seat at the table available, but the process is well known, and their need isn't prioritized by the intense need to precisely correlate the earth's position in the universe by listening to black hole songs.
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Soon the earth will be covered in satellites, a layer not unlike Asimov's Trantor.
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If there's a compelling need to allocate spectrum for astroradiology, there are mechanisms for this. The post cloyingly and insanely believes their need is compelling over all of the other allocations already made.
There's a seat at the table available, but the process is well known, and their need isn't prioritized by the intense need to precisely correlate the earth's position in the universe by listening to black hole songs.
Exactly. One thing a lot of scientists run up against is their singular focus. The ITU and WRC has a good process, and with coordination, they can establish quiet zones that extend some area around specific sites. For grins, I like to show people the NTIA frequency allocation chart and ask them who they want to be kicked out to serve their needs - apparently these folk believe civilization is in danger of collapsing (FTA) if we don't kick everyone out of "their frequencies." https://www.ntia.gov/sites/def. [ntia.gov]
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I disagree. First, the bands used for astronomy are regularly used by others, which is one reason why radio telescopes have radio silence zones. Second, astronomy certainly trumps the need for cat videos or porn. Thirdly, you really really don't need all the frequencies that are currently being used for domestic purposes, because they're being used very inefficiently. You can stack multiple streams onto far fewer lanes and use multiplexing. Fourthly, whingers lost any sympathy they might have got from me by
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You live in a tiny universe. See the NTIA's band plan to understand just how narrow your thinking is.
We agree that the cuts in the science budgets are heinous.
Nonetheless, the world is filled with *useful* radio.
Nothing trumps nothing. Your values, narrow as they might be, show your misunderstanding of spectrum management and usage.
There are asserted and managed radiological quiet zones. That's as good as it's going to get, until receiver discrimination improves, or external/satellite data permits improvem
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You live in a tiny universe. See the NTIA's band plan to understand just how narrow your thinking is.
It's a real tap-dance getting everything squeezed in.
We agree that the cuts in the science budgets are heinous.
I agree, but the efficient use of RF spectrum and the fact that it has to be extremely carefully managed in order to not have chaos erupt and turning it into something almost useless is not a US thing but a worldwide thing. We have to cooperate. All 198 of the members of the ITU have to work together.
Nonetheless, the world is filled with *useful* radio.
Nothing trumps nothing. Your values, narrow as they might be, show your misunderstanding of spectrum management and usage.
There are asserted and managed radiological quiet zones. That's as good as it's going to get, until receiver discrimination improves, or external/satellite data permits improvement on reception. That's my best hope for fetching this data. Think: Dark side of the moon.
Yup, gotta have the moon block the earth and the sun. The station transmitting its findings to a satellite in orbit around the moon, then to us. I'd be b
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I disagree. First, the bands used for astronomy are regularly used by others, which is one reason why radio telescopes have radio silence zones. Second, astronomy certainly trumps the need for cat videos or porn. Thirdly, you really really don't need all the frequencies that are currently being used for domestic purposes, because they're being used very inefficiently. You can stack multiple streams onto far fewer lanes and use multiplexing. Fourthly, whingers lost any sympathy they might have got from me by voting in twits who keep cutting the science budget. If we had space radio telescopes, you could do what the F you wanted on Earth, but because of the current lunatic situation, you're not only grabbing what scientists need, you're stopping them from alternative solutions as well.
First we gotta drop what you call a lunatic situation having bearing on this issue. Presumably you are referring to the results of the 2024 election. So unless you can prove that the entire world is somehow doing what you claim old you know who dictates, y'all gotta drop that. Let's do a reset. RF spectrum is something that must be highly regulated. Since RF doesn't obey borders, Everyone has to cooperate. There is no choice.
There is the ITU - International Telecommunication Union, there is the Plenipot
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I don't see this happening.
https://www.ntia.gov/page/unit... [ntia.gov].
I don't either. And other countries are in a similar state.
I printed out a full sized chart of those allocations, and hung it on my wall at one time, and when someone came in yapping about needing a place to park their transmitters, I'd ask them to find a place on the map. "Holy shit!" was a common response.
And if they did point out some area, the nature of RF at that frequency made it a non-starter. RF is unruly, and acts completely different at different frequen
Gonna have to build radio scopes on far side (Score:3, Interesting)
...of moon to get enough quiet.
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Until we bring wifi and cellular to the moon anyway
Re:BLACK HOLES KILL ATMS (Score:4, Interesting)
Surprisingly, it's not entirely fear-mongering
From the article:
Using a technique called very long baseline interferometry, we can use a network of radio telescopes to lock onto the black hole signals and disentangle Earthâ(TM)s own rotation and wobble in space from the satellitesâ(TM) movement.
Basically, the black hole data allows us to calibrate GPS and other systems we use locally to get a higher degree of precision. It also helps track the actual location of satellites in relation to Earth so that we can point transmitters and receivers more accurately at them which is becoming more important as more satellites are put into orbit.
GPS is used for navigation and for keeping track of products in the supply chain. Knowing where your products are when a delivery truck breaks down lets you reroute shipments to cover the stores that truck would deliver to, avoiding the empty shelves scenario.
The money transfer bit would only apply to populations that depend on satellite for internet, but there are a lot of small populated islands that have no other choice. Just because you have internet access that doesn't require satellite communication doesn't mean the entire world does.
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Is that actually used by anyone but astronomers so they can aim their telescopes better? Don't terrestrial uses just use terrestrial references?
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If a truck breaks down, it will already know if GPS is working and will have a secondary means of location, the driver could look out the window and phone in their location.
The money bit is absolutely fear mongering and that one sentence alone ruined any hopes of me taking the summar
Re: BLACK HOLES KILL ATMS (Score:4, Informative)
There's been on going debate about eliminating the adjustments provided by groups like this as it has zero impact on the vast majority of GPs users.
We aren't talking 90%, we're talking 99.999% of users are not impacted by this except in negative ways.
The extra leap seconds, +/- adjustment is barely relevant, and this group thinks ms matter over the long term.
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But those errors can be easily corrected by terrestrial references. The only people who care about extreme precision of the earth reference frame relative to the universe are astronomers, so they are being a bit self serving and disingenuous here.
Re:BLACK HOLES KILL ATMS (Score:4, Interesting)
Surprisingly, it's not entirely fear-mongering
From the article:
Using a technique called very long baseline interferometry, we can use a network of radio telescopes to lock onto the black hole signals and disentangle Earthâ(TM)s own rotation and wobble in space from the satellitesâ(TM) movement.
Basically, the black hole data allows us to calibrate GPS and other systems we use locally to get a higher degree of precision. It also helps track the actual location of satellites in relation to Earth so that we can point transmitters and receivers more accurately at them which is becoming more important as more satellites are put into orbit.
GPS is used for navigation and for keeping track of products in the supply chain. Knowing where your products are when a delivery truck breaks down lets you reroute shipments to cover the stores that truck would deliver to, avoiding the empty shelves scenario.
The money transfer bit would only apply to populations that depend on satellite for internet, but there are a lot of small populated islands that have no other choice. Just because you have internet access that doesn't require satellite communication doesn't mean the entire world does.
Some sarcasm follows, no. insult intended, I remember before we had black holes to find our groceries. The dark times. When humanity teetered on the brink of extinction.
We were in hunter gatherer times, I still have the wolfskins that II had to wear as a reminder that the only thing that keeps humanity from a return to hunter gatherer times, where few lived past 30, and we starved shivering in our mud huts, waiting for the invention of the black hole frequency reception that delivered civilization to humanity, which is in danger of being obliterated by smartphones and wifi. Reading the article, that's just a bit of amplification of what they are saying. Fearbait.
There are sober and working processes to address these issues. Going in with a "The sky is falling" mindset won't get them very far.
re: Astronomers use black holes (Score:2)
Re: Astronomers use black holes (Score:1)
Re: Astronomers use black holes (Score:5, Informative)
The summary (and article, too, I suppose) are sloppily written. They talk about geodesy, which is precise measurement of the Earth's shape - not position. Most folks know that the Earth is not a perfect sphere. It bulges by ~20 km radially at the equator (an oblate spheroid) due to rotation and tides. This is a pretty-good approximation for most purposes.
But when you get precise enough - like for very accurate mapping, navigation, and guidance - this approximation requires more and more corrections, creating a reference model called the geoid [wikipedia.org]. There are lumps and depressions of not-insignificant elevation (and gravitational strength, which is related-but-separate) sprinkled across the globe. For instance, there's a large region in the Indian Ocean where "sea level" is 100 m lower than the global mean [wikipedia.org]. Meanwhile, a good chunk of Indonesia and Papua New Guinea sits 50-75 m higher than the basic ellipsoid model.
How do we know this - that is, how can we measure this? There are several methods (originally it was trigonometric surveying, then things like radar from orbit, GPS). One of them is to use radio astronomy to measure the distance and relative velocity of the telescope w.r.t. a bunch of pulsars and quasars. (The article says "light from black holes", which is farcically wrong - black holes by definition do not emit light - but the accretion discs around a black hole can be fantastically bright.) If you are higher up (i.e., farther from the center of the Earth), you'll get measurements subtly different than from lower down, or at different latitudes. Your velocity from the Earth's rotation is a bit different, for one, which can be precisely measured using Doppler techniques. There are also effects from relativity you can factor in. Perform these measurements across the globe, and you can make a contribution to refining the accuracy of the geoid.
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No mod points today but your volunteer effort far surpassed the [presumably paid] author's WTAF essay.
It's their fault... (Score:2)
If I am driving my car down a lane of traffic, but I veer into another lane, say of oncoming traffic, I'll get into a wreck and won't get to my destination.
The answer to that is not to limit the traffic that is staying in their own lane that I veered into because I wanted more than I already have.
I either have to stay in the lane(s) I have available or build new lanes.
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Bad analogy, because science has no choice but to use the lanes that the signals are emitted on. You, on the other hand, can use absolutely any frequency you please. That won't affect you.
Fear mongering ignorance (Score:3)
This is fear monger ignorance.
The type of data potentially collected this way is, of course, interesting, but it's the type of information that tells us the earth rotated a tiny bit faster on July 22nd, 2025 UTC.
They haven't even fed that difference into the GPS. It might, possibly, make it into a future adjustment. The same adjustment they've been considering eliminating because it's pointless for the vast majority of use-cases. The value for that particular adjustment is so narrow the people generating the adjustment data are the only ones that use it.
An article like this, glossing over specifics, it's one thing when it's written to bring in an audience, but the failure to be specific (no, generically pointing at cellphones and wifi is not specific) makes the article useless for a discussion.
Somebody somewhere is looking to fund some research papers, instead they should find themselves out on their ass.
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You appear to be talking about leap seconds and GPS, which are unrelated. GPS doesn't use leap seconds,
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Agreed.
If we want satellite navigation to work, our supermarkets to be stocked and our online money transfers arriving safely, we need to make sure we have a clear view of those black holes in distant galaxies — and that means clearing up the radio highway.
I had to laugh at this. It is tantamount to lying to say that supermarkets being stocked and money transfers arriving depend on knowing the positions of black holes. No, the world will continue to turn and timekeeping on the ground will run just fine without being able to pinpoint the earth's location in space. And no, we really don't need leap seconds for financial transactions to work. UTC worked fine for trade coordination before the addition of leap seconds, and it'll work fine when they're gone.
nonsense (Score:2)
Some astronomers just use concert cams... (Score:2)
Nice and close up...
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Those jumbotrons can certainly bring certain starts crashing down to earth again.
Why black holes? (Score:2)
I read the article to see why black holes in particular would be a useful way of determining position in space, rather than, say, a handful of stars.
The answer is that they aren't just using any black holes, but the ultra-massive black holes at the center of galaxies which spew lots of radiation from their accretion discs, so are bright in radio frequencies, and are far away and have limited self-motion since they are at the center of their galaxies, so are stable from our vantage point.
Someone correct me i
Astronomy (Score:2)
Is Gwyneth Paltrow somehow involved?
Raises hand... (Score:2)
Astronomers Use Black Holes to Pinpoint Earth's Location. But are Phones and Wifi Blocking the View?
Blocking the view? WTF. How many phones and WiFi APs are in orbit? :-)