SpaceX To Attempt Daring Orbital Refueling Test of Starship (gizmodo.com) 95
SpaceX plans an ambitious in-orbit refueling test between two Starships in March 2025. "The orbital demonstration is a major step for Starship, and a crucial part of SpaceX's capability of delivering NASA's Artemis mission to the Moon," reports Gizmodo. The plans were unveiled during Spaceflight Now's recent interview (source: YouTube) with Kent Chojnacki, the deputy manager for NASA's Human Landing System program. Gizmodo reports: SpaceX is under a $53.2 million contract with NASA, signed in 2020, to use Starship tankers for in-orbit propellant transfer. During its third test flight, SpaceX transferred around 10 metric tons of liquid oxygen from Starship's header tank to its main tank while it was in space. The upcoming demonstration, however, requires a lot more of the launch vehicle. Two Starships will launch to low Earth orbit around three to four weeks apart, the spacecraft will meet and dock in orbit, and one will transfer propellant to another. After the demonstration, the two Starships will undock from one another and deorbit.
"Once you've done that, you've really cracked open the opportunity to move massive amounts of payload and cargo outside of the Earth's sphere," Chojnacki said during the interview. The in-flight propellant transfer tests are set to conclude in the summer. With in-flight refueling, NASA is aiming to develop technologies to "enable long-term cryogenic fluid management, which is essential for establishing a sustainable presence on the Moon and enabling crewed missions to Mars," the space agency stated when the contract was signed.
SpaceX is developing a version of Starship to land humans on the Moon in September 2026 as part of NASA's Artemis 3 mission. To prepare for the Moon mission, SpaceX is expected to launch between eight and 16 propellant tanker Starships into low Earth orbit in rapid succession. Each of the tankers will carry around 100 to 150 tons of liquid oxygen and liquid methane and will dock with a larger fuel depot. The orbiting depot will then connect with the Human Landing System Starship, filling its massive 1,200-ton fuel tanks. Once refueled, the Starship lander will continue its journey toward the Moon.
"Once you've done that, you've really cracked open the opportunity to move massive amounts of payload and cargo outside of the Earth's sphere," Chojnacki said during the interview. The in-flight propellant transfer tests are set to conclude in the summer. With in-flight refueling, NASA is aiming to develop technologies to "enable long-term cryogenic fluid management, which is essential for establishing a sustainable presence on the Moon and enabling crewed missions to Mars," the space agency stated when the contract was signed.
SpaceX is developing a version of Starship to land humans on the Moon in September 2026 as part of NASA's Artemis 3 mission. To prepare for the Moon mission, SpaceX is expected to launch between eight and 16 propellant tanker Starships into low Earth orbit in rapid succession. Each of the tankers will carry around 100 to 150 tons of liquid oxygen and liquid methane and will dock with a larger fuel depot. The orbiting depot will then connect with the Human Landing System Starship, filling its massive 1,200-ton fuel tanks. Once refueled, the Starship lander will continue its journey toward the Moon.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
spacecraft that Musk will test
Musk won't test it, his staff will. Musk is the company financier and salesman, and now a politician and addicted Tweeter. I'm surprised he even gets the time these days to drop in to the mission control room for the sake of appearances. Stop thinking he is a genius and the snark might stop too.
Re:Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:4, Informative)
I can understand all the other things Musk is. I can't wrap my head around anyone enjoying diablo 4. I tried and it's the mayo and white bread of modern video games.
Re: (Score:2)
That's unfair to mayo. Mayonnaise is popular in many cultures all over the world.
Re: (Score:1)
Have you seen Elon? He looks like the love-child of mayo and white bread -- who definitely has a secret base inside a volcano somewhere. :-)
Re: (Score:2)
Have you seen Elon? He looks like the love-child of mayo and white bread -- who definitely has a secret base inside a volcano somewhere. :-)
Does that base involve sharks with frickin' lasers attached to their heads? I certainly can't believe that he would try to attach the laser beams themselves....
Re:Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:5, Informative)
Neither SpaceX nor Starship would exist without Musk. There's nothing wrong with accepting this, you don't even need to like Musk. And yes, he was "financier", by founding SpaceX with $100m.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Re: Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I dunno. If I were a Tesla shareholder, I'd be pretty pissed about paying him $10^10 dollars and only getting one tiny fraction of his time and attention. One would think heading a sizeable car company would be a full time job, and not just whatever Musk can squeeze in when he's not running four other companies, shilling for politicians, tweeting incessantly, and playing Diablo. Sure the share price is up, but how much of that can be attributed to his...ahem...leadership and deci
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I am a Tesla shareholder, and I am pretty pissed about his management.
I've sold covered calls on my stock to cap the upside and protect against the downside. A process which gets me more stock to vote against him and anything that benefits him every time it comes up.
It's possible to hold stock even in a net-short position. If more people who were mad about him had some sort of a voting stake in the company, they could shut him down. The problem is, as soon as people get mad at him, they usually sell, leav
Re: (Score:2)
I dunno. If I were a Tesla shareholder, I'd be pretty pissed about paying him $10^10 dollars and only getting one tiny fraction of his time and attention.
Ironically, unlike Teslas, Tesla can probably actually run on auto-pilot most of the time ... :-)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
Oh my God, please, learn some history before commenting on this topic.
Re:Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:5, Insightful)
Please point to an instance of successful reusable (not refurbishable) boosters before Falcon 9. I remember how ULA and Arianespace mocked SpaceX's reusability ambitions in the early days.
Re: Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Do you not understand the words "Nobody thought re-usable boosters were possible", or do you think that people were working on things that they didn't think were possible?
Re: (Score:2)
Blue Origin's New Shepard was the first.
Re: (Score:2)
New Shepard is also incapable of putting anything into orbit. If you want to make that claim, then the X-15 was re-usable in 1959 and flew higher than every single New Shepard flight but one, but X-15 wasn't an orbital rocket either.
Re: (Score:1)
Oh my God, please, learn some history before commenting on this topic.
Yes, SpaceX just barely beat out the horde of space companies to being the first to land an orbital class booster.
Just barely.
I mean, BO might just might take fourth place (after three SpaceX rockets) in that race this month. 9 YEARS later.
Other than some low altitude and zero horizontal velocity Delta Clipper tests and fishing Shuttle SRBs out of the ocean and spending more money on refurbishment than building from scratch...what else was there prior to Falcon 9?
Re: (Score:2)
To repeat as per above: Do you not understand the words "Nobody thought re-usable boosters were possible", or do you think that people were working on things that they didn't think were possible?
There have been hundreds if not thousands of projects over the decades to make reusable boosters. Some never got off the drawing board, while others got to quite advanced states. It's simply sheer ignorance to claim "nobody thought it was possible". TONS of people in the industry thought it was possible.
Re: (Score:2)
Nobody thought re-usable boosters were possible until SpaceX did it, and it wasn't easy, and it was certainly Musk pushing for re-usability.
So true. Of course, part of the reason why nobody wanted to try to make reusable rockets, was that the expendable rocket business was quite profitable for the entrenched players, who through mergers and acquisitions were really down to just ULA. This could be another chapter in the sequal to Clayton Christiansen's book The Innovaters Dilemma.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
So far Starship is years behind the contract they had tailored for the company. The stuff they're doing now was supposed to be done in 2022 already. On top of that they haven't even tried anything that wasn't done 30+ years ago. They've changed the manufacturing process, but it's arguable if that's really been helpful overall.
The Saturn V, designed with slide rules and zero advanced computer modeling, launched multiple payloads to the Mo
Re: (Score:3)
There are a lot of smart people doing novel things at SpaceX, I wouldn't discount their work just because the CEO is a douchebag.
Falcon 9 flights are at a whole different level for pricing compared to competitors. Nothing else compares.
Re: (Score:2)
On top of that they haven't even tried anything that wasn't done 30+ years ago.
Delta Clipper? Other than having the concept of landing vertically under propulsive force, there is not anything remotely comparable.
First stage landing? First stage reusability? Rapid reusability? Private orbital rocket? Private cargo mission to ISS? Private manned flights for NASA? Private manned flights. Five million subscriber satellite Internet provider? Methalox engines? Full flow engines? Second stage reusability?
The Saturn V, designed with slide rules and zero advanced computer modeling, launched multiple payloads to the Moon never losing a single rocket.
Love how as SpaceX continues to succeed the haters have to stretch all the way
Re: Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Musk won't test it, his staff will. Musk is the company financier and salesman, and now a politician and addicted Tweeter.
I hear this a lot on Slashdot.
Here' an interview from Musk on Youtube Everyday Astronaut [youtube.com] where they're touring the Starship launch facility. Sure sounds like he knows a lot about what they're doing. Did he design their hardware himself? Of course not. But if you want to see what a space company does without someone like Musk at the helm, look at Boeing.
Re: (Score:2)
spacecraft that Musk will test
Musk won't test it, his staff will. Musk is the company financier and salesman, and now a politician and addicted Tweeter. I'm surprised he even gets the time these days to drop in to the mission control room for the sake of appearances. Stop thinking he is a genius and the snark might stop too.
And soon he may be too busy running the "Department of Government Efficiency" (DOGE) -- [*sigh*].
Re: (Score:2)
How can he be a politician if nobody elected him? I'm thinking you'll need some other term. Oli-something, probably.
Re: (Score:2)
I think that's the point. He's not a politician. Seems like a fair number of the nominees aren't. I, for one, think that part is good. We need fresh eyes in government.
Re: Insert Elon Musk snark below /s (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Musk has a history of building companies from scratch that have revolutionized a couple of industries (like EVs and space tech). Like him or not, he has been a visionary and a serial success. The shade comes off as petulant sour grapes for many. Color me a happy investor.
Re: (Score:3)
Musk didn't build Tesla from scratch. Or Paypal.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I agree with most of that, but not the "purely his". It takes credit away from other people who seriously deserve credit. JD for example was the one who convinced Musk to get into the EV space in the first place, meeting with him to discuss his Long Range EV project - and went on to do the initial engineering on the Roadster. And JD in turn was using tech from Gage and Cocconi at AC Propulsion, who really deserve a lot of credit for transforming the concept of electric vehicles from "Golf Cart" / "Milk Fl
Re: (Score:2)
These days, the only lionization of Elon I'd do would involve actual lions
I'm stealing that!
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Musk has a history of building companies from scratch
No, he does not. He has not been the original idea guy OR the original investor in any venture since X.com. The money for that came the sale of Zip2, the only other venture he founded, and the money he invested in that initially came from his father.
Color me a happy investor.
Thanks for disclosing why you're lying. That's head and shoulders above most other Elon stans.
Re: (Score:2)
Spare me. The guy's success speaks for itself. You'd think a bunch of neckbeards would applaud a meritocracy. Nope....once you're successful, you're "the man."
What a sad existence.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The guy's success speaks for itself.
Prosperity theology is still just religion. You're worshiping his success, which was founded upon his father's support, and his father's wealth was produced by apartheid. You're worshiping apartheid, and only slightly indirectly.
You'd think a bunch of neckbeards would applaud a meritocracy.
I would, but this has nothing at all to do with meritocracy, only with whose vagina he came out of, and what connections and seed funding that gave him.
Nope....once you're successful, you're "the man."
If you are on track to make a trillion dollars, your auto company pays below prevailing wages, and you're part of a political movem
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You'd think the Republicans would seize his assets and expel him from the country after denaturalizing him.
I think that Trump will milk him for all the popularity he's worth first. But you could see from watching Trump watch Elon skipping like a dipshit that he doesn't enjoy the competition for the crowd.
Not the emerald mine myth again (Score:1)
> You're worshiping his success, which was founded upon his father's support, and his father's wealth was produced by apartheid. You're worshiping apartheid, and only slightly indirectly.
Just... no. His dad was a dick and he kicked Elon out at 18, he never got any of this alleged wealth and paid off his student loans himself. You're just blanket blaming everyone in SA for apartheid if you want to take this route, which is horrible.
Yes, we've all heard the rumors of an "emerald mine" but that was probab
Re: (Score:2)
His dad was a dick and he kicked Elon out at 18, he never got any of this alleged wealth and paid off his student loans himself.
His father was one of his early investors.
Re: (Score:3)
Musk has a history of building companies from scratch
No, he does not. He has not been the original idea guy OR the original investor in any venture since X.com. [referring to the original X.com, later merged with Confinity, not the renamed Twitter]
True that he did not found PayPal nor Tesla.
However, he did found SpaceX, and built it from scratch. Arguably his best move here was hiring Tom Mueller [wikipedia.org] as the engine designer, but Muller was a hire, he didn't start the company.
Re: (Score:2)
Mueller was instrumental, but I think that convincing Gwynne Shotwell to leave Microcosm and run SpaceX is up there too.
Re: (Score:2)
True that he did not found PayPal nor Tesla.
He is commonly referred to and is legally considered as one of the founders of both these companies. Google, ChatGPT and Wiki all agree on this.
Re: (Score:3)
He has not been the original idea guy OR the original investor in any venture since X.com.
X.com was not his original idea. It was a copy of Peter Thiel's PayPal service.
For other readers, we are refering to the original X.com, not the re-named Twitter, which Musk founded with others in 1999 as an on-line bank. It was crap, with massive security holes. Paypal was then a service, not a company, and it was owned by Thiel's Confinity company. After a while, X.com merged with Confinity because Confinity wanted Musk's money and customers, not his "skills" or the crappy X.com code. The X.com ban
Re: (Score:2)
Musk has fantasised of reviving his X.com banking service ever since, but I wonder who (except his fans) would trust their money with a known fraudster who does not even pay the rent he owes on his offices.
I don't know. Millions of Americans donated to the campaign of a known fraudster who doesn't even pay his contractors what he owes them. Not sure how that's any different. You know what they say about a fool and his money.
Re: (Score:1)
Musk has a history of building companies from scratch (like EVs and space tech).... Like him or not, he has been a visionary and a serial success.
Musk does not have such a great history of building companies from scratch as many of his fans think. The biggest howlers are the myths that he founded Tesla and Paypal. The latter was a service in a company founded by Peter Thiel and others, and Musk's crappy copy-cat rival X.com (the original X.com) merged with Thiel's company, after which Musk was sacked for being an even bigger a-hole than Thiel himself. At the time, Paypal was the name of a service, not the company, so Musk never even worked for PayPa
Re: (Score:1)
Can't believe how much a bunch of nerds can't separate the man from the results of his companies. The great caption Malcom Reynold's said, "It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another." It's a rare man that accomplishes much and isn't some type of asshole. Go ahead and poke around historical figures that have accomplished great things. Dig into their underbelly. You'll usually find lots of stories about how much of a prick they are/were. It's really r
Re: (Score:2)
I am impressed by Tesla's accomplishments no matter who is responsible for them.
I only don't delude myself into thinking that Musk is a rocket scientist, or that we live under meritocracy.
Musk is not interested in maturing. Nobody is forcing him to do so, so if he does, it will be by coincidence. Most people don't develop into better people unless they have a reason to do so, or if they do, it is a very slow process that usually only manifests in visible ways while they are on their deathbed and finally rea
Re: (Score:2)
Musk has no reason to change because he is a firm believer in the philosophy that says money = morality. And why wouldn't he be. Once you are declared the richest person alive, I can't imagine you would use any other metric to measure any aspect of life. More money = most bestest person.
I still won't complain about what his companies have managed to accomplish, and see no reason to sully SpaceX with Musk's taint every time they pull something off or announce a new endeavor. Unless it's Musk day-dream timeli
Re: (Score:2)
I still won't complain about what his companies have managed to accomplish, and see no reason to sully SpaceX with Musk's taint
eew
Seriously though it's Musk's fault that someone brings up Musk every time Tesla or SpaceX comes up. If he would just shut the fuck up and stop making it clear that he's a creep, it would stop.
Re: (Score:2)
I still won't complain about what his companies have managed to accomplish, and see no reason to sully SpaceX with Musk's taint
eew
Seriously though it's Musk's fault that someone brings up Musk every time Tesla or SpaceX comes up. If he would just shut the fuck up and stop making it clear that he's a creep, it would stop.
Agreed. At least Bezos typically lets his words be filtered through a publicity specialist. Sometimes he slips though. That wonderful comment about building Blue Origin on the blood of his workers was a a neat little glimpse into his psyche. Very "fun for me, toil for thee" of him.
It's funny how Musk didn't come off nearly as creepazoid back before he started smoking Snoop level weed and then twittering his evenings away.
Re: (Score:2)
Jobs and Scully (Score:5, Interesting)
This is all great, but what I'm really worried about is when Elon and Trump have their falling out. Two rich sociopaths with immense power and gigantic egos is going to be epic. But as Elon has now alienated the left, regardless of the outcome he's going to end up putting SpaceX in a very difficult position politically.
If you can bear to listen to them talking about teach other it reminds me a lot of when Steve Jobs hired John Scully. At the start they were best buddies, respecting what each one brought to the table, and by the end it was all out war. I doubt Elon has ever dealt so closely with another egotistical maniac that has real power that he cannot steamroll out of the way, so it's going to be an insane level of fireworks when it happens, but I think it could easily be the beginning of the end for Musk.
Re: (Score:3)
This is all great, but what I'm really worried about is when Elon and Trump have their falling out. Two rich sociopaths with immense power and gigantic egos is going to be epic. But as Elon has now alienated the left, regardless of the outcome he's going to end up putting SpaceX in a very difficult position politically.
Why would it harm SpaceX? It would be better off without him at this point. Elon worked illegally in this country when he first came here, so he was never really eligible to get permanent resident status, and it's not too late for Trump to deport him for it, and use civil asset forfeiture to take Musk's stake in everything. Twitter becomes literal state media instead of the de facto kind like it is now, and in fact I bet Trump could figure out how to use his DOJ to "break it up" in some fake-ass way and han
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Trump holds all the cards in this relationship, so it should be quick and easy to shed Musk.
Kinda but that would require Trump to know stuff. Not really his jam.
Re: (Score:2)
that would require Trump to know stuff. Not really his jam.
It only requires someone to tell him he can do it at some point when he's really pissed off at Leon.
Re: (Score:2)
Why would it harm SpaceX? It would be better off without him [Musk] at this point.
If/when Trump and Musk fall out, it would probably harm SpaceX by losing its massive government contracts. The best thing then would be for Musk's companies to kick him out asap. That would be possible for Tesla, but I'm not sure about SpaceX as it is not a publically listed company with shareholders.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Boeing cannot keep a rocket program to/from IIS on time.
Like Trump would care.
Statute of limitations? (Score:2)
Re: Statute of limitations? (Score:2)
The Republicans are going to make it easier, and you can quote me on that. If I was wrong I'll eat a jack in the box taco
Re: (Score:2)
You can't deport american citizens that easily.
If Trump goes forward with his mass deportation scheme, hundreds, maybe thousands, of citizens are going to get deported. Probably not any who can afford top-notch law firms, though.
Re: (Score:1)
You can't deport american citizens that easily.
Your aren't supposed to be able to execute them without due process either. But that didn't stop Barack Obama.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is about mankind taking impressive first steps toward becoming an inter-planetary species. This is exactly the type of news we all want to see and read about here on Slashdot. And you still cannot think of anything else but politics.
Anyone here who cannot separate their political opinions from the impressive technological advancement such as this, really needs to take a step back and have some self-reflection with your priorities in life.
Go argue politics on some political site, embrace and enjoy the
Re: (Score:1)
This is about mankind taking impressive first steps toward becoming an inter-planetary species. This is exactly the type of news we all want to see and read about here on Slashdot. And you still cannot think of anything else but politics.... Go argue politics on some political site, embrace and enjoy the technology news here on Slashdot!
Not sure how I fit in your sweeping generalisations, but if I were in the USA I would have voted for Trump as the lesser of two evils, but at the same time I have a stong aversion to salesmen (Musk is one), billionaires or not, and to megalomaniacs (if Musk isn't, who the hell is?).
Anyway, the "first steps" towards and inter-planetary species, if any, were taken ~60 years ago, and SpaceX has not even got as far as they did then. I would be happier about the Starship inter-planetary project (if it is mor
Re:Jobs and Scully (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
This is all great, but what I'm really worried about is when Elon and Trump have their falling out.
Why? Will it impact the ability of SpaceX to complete the refueling test? Does it cause a technical issue for moving propellant from one vehicle to another? The election is over and some of us would like to go back to technical topics.
I would say that the biggest challenge to completing this test next year (March 2025) would be that Musk always over-promises. He'll claim regulations are slowing him down (they do a little), but we constantly see Musk's promises run way past his designated delivery date.
Re: (Score:3)
Unfortunately, you can't easily separate politics from science and engineering, especially at this level.
If Trusk break up, they're both vindictive assholes willing to burn the world down for some revenge.
Re:Jobs and Scully (Score:5, Insightful)
I would say that the biggest challenge to completing this test next year (March 2025) would be that Musk always over-promises. He'll claim regulations are slowing him down (they do a little), but we constantly see Musk's promises run way past his designated delivery date.
All I'm saying is that I don't think that is the biggest challenge anymore, nor the technical stuff (which while not easy, I think they have a clear pathway on how to get there now). If Musk and Trump fall out, how exactly do you think SpaceX is going to manage being hated by politicians of all stripes, and having openly antagonised the civil servants who they rely on? He needs things to go well with Trump and I think he is incredibly naive to believe Trump (or any politician of any colour) feels any obligation to help him with his goals.
I could easily see a lot of forces conspiring to push him out of SpaceX. He relies on a lot of other investors who will act much more rationally - i.e. ditch mars and suck on the govt teat for decades to come if the alternative is conflict with the entire US govt.
I genuinely wish Musk had not bought that stupid Twitter and gotten involved in politics, but he did, and I don't see how this plays out well. When I was a young engineer, I hated all the politics, but as I got older, I realised that the world if full of brilliant engineers wasting their skills because of politics. It's an inescapable part of any human achievement.
Re: (Score:2)
Depends how much you think Musk is involved in this. Apparently he has been hanging around Trump since he won. Might be looking for a job in his government, which would draw him away from SpaceX.
Depending on your point of view, that may be a good thing, or it may be a bad thing. Or even both.
Re: (Score:2)
Depends how much you think Musk is involved in this. Apparently he has been hanging around Trump since he won. Might be looking for a job in his government, which would draw him away from SpaceX.
Tell us you don't pay attention to current events without telling us you don't pay attention to current events.
Re: (Score:2)
He's just been appointed joint head of the Department of Government Efficiency. They could start by cutting down the two people doing one job heading up the Department of Government Efficiency.
Re: (Score:2)
Two rich sociopaths with immense power and gigantic egos is going to be epic.
Well, one of them is rich. I'm not so sure about the other.
Elon is the new Howard Hughes (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
and if spontaneously engages in unplanned (Score:3)
Progress (Score:1)
Wait, when did humanity get starships? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Welcome to marketing, where truth is a mere inconvenience.
Re: (Score:2)
We are fairly close (as in 'probably within your lifetime') to being able to build a fusion rocket (not a fusion power generator, that's far more difficult) that could get a probe to Alpha Centauri before the people who built it died of old age.
I don't know if that's good enough to qualify as a 'starship' to people who grew up watching Star Trek, but it seems pretty impressive to me.
Already been Done (Score:2)
Boring. All of these things were tested and successful, as recorded in the documentary from 1998 titled "Armageddon".